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Was Larian the right choice?

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  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    edited June 2019
    Lemernis wrote: »
    BillyYank wrote: »
    Lemernis wrote: »
    Would folks recommend trying Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2 as a way for me to get a sense of what Larian might do with BG III? Unfamiliar with both.

    The first game is on sale at GoG right now for $11.99. I just started, and it's interesting so far. The combat takes a little getting used to. I've only really played the IE games before, but I'm finding it more intuitive than Pillars of Eternity.

    Thanks Billy! I see also that the D:OS Enhanced Edition is available via Steam for $40. Anyone feel that the difference is dramatic enough to warrant getting the EE version? I'm basically just trying to get a feel for what Larian has done, so the standard version is probably fine.
    EE version Hands down. No contest.
    The classic version has the flaws of a kickstartered-low-profile belgian indie game. When port to consoles for international market (EE version) they made them rewrote, redub lots of dialogs and add many changes: aesthetical, narrative and gameplay (From adding wands and grenades to new actors and companions to mod support, etc)

    To be honest I am fond of the first and now I found charming those amateur flaws because I played that game since kickstarter ( they give me the EE game for free because I bough the original, me and all people) but the EE was far superior in all aspects. I do not think the classic version can show you what Larian can do now.



  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited June 2019
    Could be worse. Imagine if was M$/EA/Bugthesda/Blizzard.

    This companies would probably make BG3 into an battle royable. At least the worst thing that Larien can make is SCL2.
  • EconomicsEconomics Member Posts: 13
    the only good options are larian/obsidian, so i am glad larian studios are the one making baldurs gate 3 for a couple of reason

    they are dnd nerds , they are passionate about their work,they try to improve( they look at what they could have done better and improve on it )( DOS:2 is a much better experience that DOS1 even though both were great)they are self publishing so no interference from a publisher to make changes to maximize profits, you can check their youtube channel to get a better feel about their enviroment
    JuliusBorisovDinoDinDog_eat_DogQuartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    "they are dnd nerds"

    They claim to be, but they seem to really think that D&D rules don't work for video games.
    kanisathaSorcererV1ct0rWarChiefZeke
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "they are dnd nerds"

    They claim to be, but they seem to really think that D&D rules don't work for video games.

    That is not really a point against them being fans of D&D..

    I mean, BioWare obviously did not think that the D&D rules work for Baldurs Gate, so they changed them a bit, similiar to basicly any other pen & paper conversion I know.

    One thing which always gets changed is the speed of progression and the ammount of magical loot,
    most games have a higher progressions than any of the adventures I could join.

    All in all, I'm optimistic. Why?
    Because if they succeed in making a good BG3 then they may rejuvenate a great serious.
    If they fail at BG3 but still make a good D&D game it gives me the chance to play more D&D CRPGs.
    If they fail at both I don't actually lose anything..

    Let us assume it will go well, because it can fail on its own. ^^
    Quartz
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Arcanis wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "they are dnd nerds"

    They claim to be, but they seem to really think that D&D rules don't work for video games.

    That is not really a point against them being fans of D&D..

    I mean, BioWare obviously did not think that the D&D rules work for Baldurs Gate, so they changed them a bit, similiar to basicly any other pen & paper conversion I know^

    small changes that bioware did on bg1/2 are nothing like "missing doesnt work", "leveling is too slow" and complains about resting and spell slots.

    BTW a lot of dos1 fans criticized dos2 combat...

    Imo claim that they are dnd fans is like claim that jay wilson is a d2 fan...
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    Arcanis wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "they are dnd nerds"

    They claim to be, but they seem to really think that D&D rules don't work for video games.

    That is not really a point against them being fans of D&D..

    I mean, BioWare obviously did not think that the D&D rules work for Baldurs Gate, so they changed them a bit, similiar to basicly any other pen & paper conversion I know^

    small changes that bioware did on bg1/2 are nothing like "missing doesnt work", "leveling is too slow" and complains about resting and spell slots.

    BTW a lot of dos1 fans criticized dos2 combat...

    Imo claim that they are dnd fans is like claim that jay wilson is a d2 fan...

    The leveling in BG & NWN is -in my p&p experience - abnormaly fast.
    I don't know what they plan to change and I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt.

    Unless they say *how* they want to change leveling and missing I fail to see a reason to damn them already, after all, every conversion needs to change some aspects.

    One modification about the missing issue could this be:
    Instead of only missing, some "failed" attacks could be shown of hitting uneffectivly, or being parried.

    They may tweak the actual hit-calculations or their changes will be mostly cosmetic.
    But I actually agree that missing looks weird - partly because I actually saw a failed attack throw not as actually missing to *hit* but failing to have an effectiv attack.
    DinoDinQuartz
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,295
    Arcanis wrote: »
    Arcanis wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "they are dnd nerds"

    They claim to be, but they seem to really think that D&D rules don't work for video games.

    That is not really a point against them being fans of D&D..

    I mean, BioWare obviously did not think that the D&D rules work for Baldurs Gate, so they changed them a bit, similiar to basicly any other pen & paper conversion I know^

    small changes that bioware did on bg1/2 are nothing like "missing doesnt work", "leveling is too slow" and complains about resting and spell slots.

    BTW a lot of dos1 fans criticized dos2 combat...

    Imo claim that they are dnd fans is like claim that jay wilson is a d2 fan...

    The leveling in BG & NWN is -in my p&p experience - abnormaly fast.

    This has been said a lot, but I disagree strongly. What gets ignored is that the BG adventures would take a lot longer in PnP due to the much faster combat resolution by the computer and the lack of between player dialogue.

    Look at it:

    One level for escaping assassins and some side quests in FA and Beregost

    One for travelling to Nashkel, exploring town and surroundings plus clearing mines

    One for tracking down the bandits, exploring surroundings and clearing the camp

    One for Cloakwood with mines

    One for all city of BG content

    One for return and escape from Candlekeep

    One for Ulgoth Beard content including Durlag's Tower

    ---> I think this can easily justify lvl 8 or 9 in a PnP campaign in terms of the adventures you have. Sure, there are groups that like even slower levelling, but it is in no way excessively fast.

    Anyway, to see that BG levelling is relatively slow, you just need to compare with NWN, KOTOR, NWN 2, PoE 2 and yes, D:OS 2. In those games you go to lvl 20 or more in a single campaign.
    SorcererV1ct0rArcanisThacoBellSjerrie
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    On Pathfinder Kingmaker, you reach lv 5 relative quickly, but after lv 10, takes an eternity to level up. From lv 17 to 18, i believe that took 19 hours of gameplay for me.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    @Ammar
    Mhm, possible.
    I think it depends on the DM - and I have not much DM variation so my knowledge here is limited.

    But I think the point is that it *feels* faster, so there is a chance that BG3 will feel similiar. (yes I'm optimistic :D)
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    About them claiming to be "DnD nerds", I doubt this statement very much. Not because any perceived honesty of them or this claim being held in the light of their other statements of what work like Thac0Bell said above... But simply because DnD's influence is fairly limited outside of the US.

    Especially for people of Vincke's age. If he was still a teenager I could believe that the non-american systems had fallen into pop-cultural shadows, but back when Vincke was a kid they would very much still be alive and broadly played.

    I'm not sure about their French speaking inhabitants, but I guess for Belgian players The Dark Eye would still be the DnD-equivalent given it's proximity to Germany
    Kamigoroshi
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,295
    scriver wrote: »
    About them claiming to be "DnD nerds", I doubt this statement very much. Not because any perceived honesty of them or this claim being held in the light of their other statements of what work like Thac0Bell said above... But simply because DnD's influence is fairly limited outside of the US.

    Especially for people of Vincke's age. If he was still a teenager I could believe that the non-american systems had fallen into pop-cultural shadows, but back when Vincke was a kid they would very much still be alive and broadly played.

    I'm not sure about their French speaking inhabitants, but I guess for Belgian players The Dark Eye would still be the DnD-equivalent given it's proximity to Germany

    It's more about language, not proximity. I don't think (alas) that DSA was ever very big outside of Germany.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    When I first came in contact with p&p (around 20 years ago) I first learned of D&D and then DSA back in germany. (BG1 certanly helped)
    But I admit that DSA was much easier to find - I got some of the books in a library in fact.

    But you should remember one thing: the developers of DSA where inspired by two games: Trolls and Dungeons and D&D. One of the reasons for DSA are in fact the high licencing costs TSR demanded for D&D, so saying that it is unlikely that people outside of the US had exposure to D&D is rather ..risky.

    Another bit: the first german translation was 1983!
    JuliusBorisovSkatan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited June 2019
    scriver wrote: »
    About them claiming to be "DnD nerds", I doubt this statement very much. Not because any perceived honesty of them or this claim being held in the light of their other statements of what work like Thac0Bell said above... But simply because DnD's influence is fairly limited outside of the US.(...)

    Pathfinder Kingmaker was made by Russians and if very pathfinder-like.

    Anyway, D&D has always had a lot of translations "The first translations will be French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish, Polish, and Portuguese, with more to follow.( https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/localization ) " And when i visited Bariloche(Argentina), bookstores was far more common than any other place that i've visited and they offten sell D&D/pathfinder localized books.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    edited June 2019
    Ammar wrote: »
    scriver wrote: »
    About them claiming to be "DnD nerds", I doubt this statement very much. Not because any perceived honesty of them or this claim being held in the light of their other statements of what work like Thac0Bell said above... But simply because DnD's influence is fairly limited outside of the US.

    Especially for people of Vincke's age. If he was still a teenager I could believe that the non-american systems had fallen into pop-cultural shadows, but back when Vincke was a kid they would very much still be alive and broadly played.

    I'm not sure about their French speaking inhabitants, but I guess for Belgian players The Dark Eye would still be the DnD-equivalent given it's proximity to Germany

    It's more about language, not proximity. I don't think (alas) that DSA was ever very big outside of Germany.

    I'm born '81 and growing up in Sweden the only two fantasy RPGs I ever heard of was DnD and the Swedish one called Drakar & Demoner (Dragons & Demons). No German or other fantasy setting RPGs were very common for casuals, though they of course probably existed and sold to the initiated. So hearing Belgians saying they are DnD fans is not at all unlikely to me.

    Edit: To make it clear, I'm talking about PnP here and not (PC) games.
    Post edited by Skatan on
    JuliusBorisovmlneveseSjerrieQuartz
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,295
    Arcanis wrote: »
    When I first came in contact with p&p (around 20 years ago) I first learned of D&D and then DSA back in germany. (BG1 certanly helped)
    But I admit that DSA was much easier to find - I got some of the books in a library in fact.

    But you should remember one thing: the developers of DSA where inspired by two games: Trolls and Dungeons and D&D. One of the reasons for DSA are in fact the high licencing costs TSR demanded for D&D, so saying that it is unlikely that people outside of the US had exposure to D&D is rather ..risky.

    Another bit: the first german translation was 1983!

    Most interestingly, the people who invented DSA were originally supported to do the first translation of D&D into German, but the company they worked for thought the licensing costs were too high and decided to create their own game instead.
    Arcanis
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    scriver wrote: »
    About them claiming to be "DnD nerds", I doubt this statement very much. Not because any perceived honesty of them or this claim being held in the light of their other statements of what work like Thac0Bell said above... But simply because DnD's influence is fairly limited outside of the US.

    Especially for people of Vincke's age. If he was still a teenager I could believe that the non-american systems had fallen into pop-cultural shadows, but back when Vincke was a kid they would very much still be alive and broadly played.

    I'm not sure about their French speaking inhabitants, but I guess for Belgian players The Dark Eye would still be the DnD-equivalent given it's proximity to Germany

    I keep saying this - they're reading our forum. ;)

    "Dungeons & Dragons is very big for us. It’s always been something we’ve used as a go-to, to look at when you’re building your own worlds. And I’ve been reading Dungeons & Dragons since I was a kid. Lord of the Rings was my first fantasy series, the second one was Dragonlance from Weis and Hickman. So that’s how I got into it. And when we were thinking about our next game, which we decided wasn’t going to be Divinity, Baldur’s Gate came very high on the list."

    https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/01/baldurs-gate-iii-larian-studios-interview-we-want-to-create-the-state-of-the-art-in-rpgs-10094263/
  • ValrogValrog Member Posts: 14
    Yes. I have full confidence in Larian.
    JuliusBorisovQuartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Ah yes, "We played BG2 and that just doesn't work in a video game." Larian totally has the respect for the franchise needed to pull this off.
    megamike15sarevok57Sjerriekanisatha
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Ah yes, "We played BG2 and that just doesn't work in a video game." Larian totally has the respect for the franchise needed to pull this off.

    I searched "miss" on STEAM and GOG negative review. NOBODY, i repeat, nobody ever criticized "missing"

    On pathfinder kingmaker, an summoned army surrounded an enemy who was under the effect of icy prison spell, despite my high level party(16~20), i was missing around 85% of the hits. Note that i was targeting an Witch, not an Demigod Death Knight with +5 plate armor and all types of ungodly buffs to his AC. Here is more screenshots of the encounter
    To be honest and not say that i an "cherry picking", i decided to do the same experiment on pathfinder reviews and found an couple of guys(but minority of then) who criticized missing (eg : https://steamcommunity.com/id/manbeast/recommended/640820/ and https://steamcommunity.com/id/ebben/recommended/640820 )

    PsicoVic
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited August 2019
    Re: that reference by Vinke I sometimes wonder if what he might have meant was that in order to more closely resemble real life skilled martial combat with (mostly medieval) weapons, maybe 1 in 20 or 5% of the time is too high for a total miss? I mean maybe irl dodge happens a lot, sure. And of course most blows that land are successfully parried with no or little damage. But not so much swinging and missing. Like if the target just stood there without reacting, 5% of the time skilled fighters would just miss? Isn't that basically what a Natural 1 signifies?

    Just putting it out there to consider. I do love the traditional d20 mechanics. But by the same token, as long as the combat feels satisfying I'll be fine, personally.
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Lemernis "Like if the target just stood there without reacting, 5% of the time skilled fighters would just miss? Isn't that basically what a Natural 1 signifies?"

    No. Combat in D&D and the games has always been an abstraction. The entire fight is supposed to be interpreted as realistic combat. Feints, dodges, blocks. That's what armor class represents. If your character swings and "misses" its not just a whiff, its your oppent doging or blocking. A roll of 1 is just bad luck for your character. Maybe they slipped on some mud, maybe the sun got in their eyes. Its just another abstraction of the choas of combat.

    Yep, pretty much this. It's like watching the combat animations in NWN1. A miss in that game could be shown as a sidestep, a duck, blocking the blow with your weapon or shield etc. A natural 1 usually translates to an unexpected slip-up by the attacker, like maybe they stepped in a pool of blood and skidded a little bit, which made their swing go wide, which is why even the most skilled Fighters can still miss sometimes. (And if you're an especially cruel DM, you institute a house rule where on natural 1's, you roll to "confirm" the fumble, and a second 1 means something especially catastrophic happens, like you accidentally stab your own leg or run your friend through. XD )
    scriverThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    In therms of animations on D&D based games, i think that the best one is ToEE.
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    In terms of animations only the FR game Demonstone was pretty cool (they even have Drizzt). The animations make you feel a skilled swordsman.
    But the game itself was not very good. At all.

    I liked monk´s Pool of radiance animations too.
  • GyorGyor Member Posts: 31
    I want it to be turn based and innovative and based on the current realms and 5e amd ambitious so yes, Larian was the right choice.
    JuliusBorisovLemernisQuartz
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited August 2019
    The problem is how much "modernized" BG3 will be. If it has cooldowns, or stats linked towards gear or gimmicky puzzle combat as """tactical""" combat, or limitations like archer who can't hit an elephant a 14m but never miss , i will not buy. The game can end up being an good game, but for me who hate this mechanics, i rather re play ToEE + Co8, BG, IWD or replay play PF:KM, even playing PoR2 with the broken mouse acceleration sounds more interesting TBH.

    Yes, saying that BG3 will be like SCL was an strawman. Low Magic Age/ is based on 3.5e but unfortunately brought most things that i hate about modern game design. There are even an "miss damage" if i remember correctly about an video that i saw...

    Lets wish that Larian allow modders to make the game more pnp like.
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