PC most likely to survive
ilduderino
Member Posts: 773
I was wondering which race and class is most likely to survive the saga on a no reload challenge.
Cleric/mage is probably my top pick once they get going due to magic protections, contingencies and the range of magic options, you will be weak at the start though and can not get shorty saving throws.
Gnome F/I seems a powerful choice due to the magic protections and gnome saves. Attack power is also a great form of defence.
Dwarven defender had great hp, powerful saves and damage reduction.
What do you think?
Cleric/mage is probably my top pick once they get going due to magic protections, contingencies and the range of magic options, you will be weak at the start though and can not get shorty saving throws.
Gnome F/I seems a powerful choice due to the magic protections and gnome saves. Attack power is also a great form of defence.
Dwarven defender had great hp, powerful saves and damage reduction.
What do you think?
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I had envisaged playing with a party so could cover the thief base with someone else and was more looking for the pc that is unlikely to go down unless the whole party is wiped, as it is only you that gets the game over (though it is a bit flimsy that you can raise Imoen).
The thief point is interesting as my preference is for the good npcs but then you lack a high level thief. To survive at high level it may be necessary to tolerate Jan ?
i am not a no reloader, but in many cases when charname or a npc die is because i skip some buff, potion or other preparation to the fight that would have saved me in that situation.
i would say that every arcane caster is rock solid if there is also a cleric in the party, as the divine protections are mostly on target or on party/aoe, while many arcane (spell immunity, stoneskin and the rest) are on self.
also to have good saving throws helps, races and class combinations that boost them should be preferred.
for a soloer it is different, as the class affects what he can do, the tools he has, while in the party, a well balanced one, as long as charname can protect himself well and cover a specific role is set to try a no reload.
Certain battles like Ilasaera and her goons become a breeze with a few spike traps.
Super high DR with AoF, DoE, Hardiness
High resists from clerical spells combined with items (shield, helmets, batista rings etc)
Negative saves from +5 shortie saves and the amazing combo of fighter and clerical saving throw bonuses from level up
Overall just a very tanky character from the get-go who also dish out enough damage to take out foes quickly. Yes, I know many ppl loves mages and the arcane defenses, but with a high HP pool, high resistances and saving throws that let you negate many spells cast on you, you can tank stuff instead of having ie Immunity. Also quite non-reliant on sleeping or ie Wish cheese. Paladins offer quite similar possibilities with their saving throws from their class, magic resist from Carsomyr etc, but I prefer shorties and the versatility you get from the clerical spell list.
A gnome fighter or thief/illusionist is great as well. And so is C/Ms, but for me, C/Ms are to reliant on others in the beginning since even though can protect themselves well, it takes some time before you can kill quickly enough (for me personally, usually around the time I find the first wand of fire, hehe).
I would guess though that if this was a poll, the sorcerer would end up at the top of the list.
And the rage is really good, but can not be used in every possible battle.
Relying on magic and metagame to survive in my experience fail only if i skip some step in my buffing routine.
Some examples. A toon stunned by a flyer can be int drain killed, but a contingency with invisibility or pfmw on helpless saves you, fingerof death or flash to stone can mean game over, but not if immunity from the appropriate school is active, even with very good ac some consecutive 20 or high o hit rolls are possible, if it happens right after some adhw or high damage spell again game over.
As i dont use maxed hp rolls on level up it affects my opinion, possibly a fighter type with good con and maxed hp has enough life to survive in unlucky situations where my fighter with less hp dies.
The same goes for newer players as well.. i would only recommend Mage (multi, single or dual..) to players who have thoroughly studied how magic works in the game, and which creatures are susceptible to what.. or you'll face a lot of hit and miss and that's not an option in No Reload.
You can stay at range and cast spells and use slings/throwing hammers, or you can go full on melee.
What i love about F/C compared to the arguably better F/M, is that all their buffs and protections usually last for a long time.
F/M has X amount of stoneskins, if your ac is low that stoneskin won't last very long, protection from normal/magic weapons is often described as the holy grail, but it lasts 4 rounds..
However, the F/M does gain a significant power once he gets lvl 9 spells and timestop + greater whirlwind etc..
However..
The F/C gains Armor of Faith, that's 25% physical damage reduction.
Mix that with Defender of Easthaven and Fighter Hardiness HLA, and we're looking at 85% physical resistance.. you can facetank dragons and fire giants for laughs.. and it's a reliable, easily attained and maintained way of buffing.. add on wall/globe of blades and we're talking about an unkillable meatshredder.. and if that wasn't enough, you can use Sanctuary to not get attacked at all.. whilst still being a walking, unkillable meatshredder with wall/globe of blades.
Death wards, negative plane protection, shield of archons, chaotic commands, etc etc, dual wielding Flail of Ages and Crom.. The F/C is one of the most satisfying and easily used true powerhouses in the game and their survivability is nearly unmatched.. given you'll wear fullplate, have 19 Orc Str, 20 after BG1, 24 after hell trials and watchers keep, or just 25 with Crom, the char is a monster even unbuffed and unprotected, most of the time you can just let the bastard loose and he'll sort out the business via script.
The Cavalier is also an extremely strong, durable and hard to kill character. Given his many damage reductions to elements, poison, disease and fear immunity, and very easily attained 50% magic resistance, you'd be looking at a character who in an unbuffed state has damage and magic protections many other class combos can't even get by buffing.. Cavs are absolutely amazing melee chars.
Berserker->Thief is another very, very strong combo.. the berserk ability makes you immune to so many negative effects with just one button click it's not even funny.. add in Thief HLA and you'll wield carsomyr if you need to, wear all kinds of protective items and have super deadly traps etc etc..
That's my 2 cents at least.
Trying to come up with some alternatives to the standard of; Mages>Everything Else.
What has surprised me is that the archer has been the easiest playthrough of all so far. The druid has been the second easiest. The hardest playthrough has been the bard thus far, where I have survived by the skin of my teeth a couple times as my party has crumbled around me. The solo M/T playthrough has gone smoother than any of the party playthroughs except the archer and the druid.
A few observations on "survivability."
-Solo playthroughs with a character with arcane magic are mostly easier than party playthroughs because an over-leveled mage, even a multi-class mage (except F/M/T), is more powerful than a level-appropriate party through the first half of both games: BG and BGII.
-Any class that is on the frontline in a party (where you are level-appropriate for most encounters), even F/M, makes for a tougher playthrough. You are often targeted first with spells and melee attacks, and if you are disabled, you are usually under attack and in serious trouble. Being in the rear helps a great deal.
-In SCS, many attackers and especially ranged attackers typically focus on mages. This can be especially troublesome early on (before stoneskins). In a party setting with SCS, mages are not as "survivable" as many would have you believe, because they are often the center of enemy activity.
-The Totemic Druid is especially "survivable" throughout because they are not typically frontline characters, have stoneskins (after 9th level), have numerous protections spells including AoF, can summon in large quantities, which disperses enemy attacks, and do not draw the attention that mages do.
-Archers are, perhaps, the most effective charname in my opinion for group play. Why? Nearly every other class, except F/M, is represented by an NPC, and your Charname will not be significantly more effective than one of the NPCs. Imoen and Jan are fine M/Ts, and any M/T you create is not going to be significantly better. Same for Jaheira and F/D. Edwin can be as effective an arcane caster (and better in many cases) than most Charnames. Aerie is effective as a M/C. However, no NPC can duplicate the archer's unique set of abilities. Mazzy is a poor substitute. She does substantially less damage, cannot pile called shots onto major enemies, cannot scout or consistently hit and run from the shadows, cannot cast AoF or Pro Fire/Cold, etc... .
-The archer's unique set of abilities, not replicated by NPCs, combined with the archer's ability to do massive damage at range, rarely be targeted by enemy attacks or spells, and hit-run-and-hide when necessary makes the archer, in my experience, the most "survivable" character for party play.
-For solo play, I really prefer the M/T because of the stealth ability. Solo play is really about avoiding being disabled, and the M/T is as good as any class at that (Gnome M/Ts can get the shorty-save bonuses). Paladins are also very good, because of their late-game summoning abilities, the available magic items in BGII, and their good saving-throws throughout. F/T and C/M are good, but it is easy to forget where a trap is or what type of protection you need to bypass a specific trap. F/M/T lacks 9th level spells, and their buffs and defenses are more easily dispelled because they lack caster level, even when "over-levelled" for the earlier game encounters. Unless you are playing on Legend of Baal difficulty and want to exploit the mislead/backstab combination multiple times per round, the downside to F/M/T rather then F/M, M/C, M/T, or sorceror is substantial.
For party playthroughs, they are not very good. They are far behind in experience, level, saving throws, and in BGI, hit points. Why have a low-level fighter, magic-user, and thief, when you can have a high level one of each or a F/M, who is more effective at everything throughout except dealing with traps and spamming backstabs with mislead very late in the game?
They are elite for solo playthroughs, but I would rank them just behind Sorceror, M/T, C/M, and F/M in terms of "suvivability." I don't feel they are as strong as these classes for several reasons. First, they have no access to 4th level spells in BG:1. This is somewhat mitigated by the 20 Spirit Armor, Chaos, and Greater Malison spells available in Baldur's Gate, but no Improved invisibility and no Stoneskins makes the late-game BGI battles much more difficult than for a F/M, C/M, or M/T. There are some mods, such as the item randomizer, that removes even these scrolls. Without these, late-game battles such as defeating the greater dopplegangers at Sarevok's Coronation (which is one of the most difficult solo battles) very difficult indeed for F/M/Ts.
Also, SCS mages love to cast dispel magic or remove magic. F/M/T buffs are almost automatically removed until Spell Immunity: Abjuration is available. Even late-game, when their buffs and defenses are removed, they often don't have enough spell slots to completely rebuff themselves until reaching near maximum level, and they have little room for offensive spells, debuffing, or spells to counter enemy mages protections.
Finally, the lack of 9th level spells is very disabling in the late game. A sorceror with multiple time-stops, wishes, Improved Alacrity, and the casting-time reducing items is far more powerful, being capable of destroying most encounters without any risk or much response from the enemy. F/M, M/T, and C/M likewise.
I have finished the game solo with an M/T and an F/M/T. I was much more impressed with the M/T. I even did all of Durlag's Tower with the M/T (on a no-reload playthrough). I would not have tried that with the F/M/T, because the lack of improved invisibility for the chessboard battle and minor spell deflection for the demon-knight with his power word stun. Now, on Legend of Baal, with the absurd hit-point boosts that enemies receive, mislead and backstab become far more important than in any other version in the late game. On this difficulty level, I think the F/M/T is a superior class.
but i play mainly bg2 only and don't use SCS, when i want to mod for difficulty i use tactics mod.
also i don't play LoB.
is true that the FMT lacks of lev 9 spells, but as the topic is to survive in a no reload challenge, not necessarily solo, the party will probably have a proper main mage or sorcerer to cast them, in a party it seems to me that every multi with the mage class is anyway not suited to cover the role of main arcane caster.
a FM, MT or CM get those high level spells quite late and never get more then 2 of them unless he is a gnome, the only multi specialist.
as main caster i prefer a wild mage, with a little caution i never had to reload for a bad surge, even if i like to spam dwehomers from a certain point of the game (using a PI to do it), a sorcerer, whose PI is utterly versatile as each clone can use the spells he know in a very different way without needing to rest to memorize a new set suited for a certain battle, or a dual F9->M that can better recharge his spells using the spell trap, many times his PI comes for free as during the improved alacrity spell spam find the time to cast at the F->M a lev 7 and a lev 9 spell, so sometimes i can use more then a PI in a long battle, as after the IA has elapsed it is not much useful to keep it alive if you can have a new one with a loaded spell book for free.
a multi really lacks of enough high level spells to really be effective as bomber and to recharge the spells using the trap he needs all the lev 9 spells (that anyway come quite late), 1 for the spell trap and 1 for the PI's IA, assuming that at the end of the IA uses a lev 9 scroll to recharge the trap and there is an other caster to dispell the clone if i don't want to loose 2 rounds as casting from scrolls ignores the IA. While a dual, wild mage or sorcerer can do all by his own and inside the IA, power word stun and kill are very very fast with RoV and IA, so fast that if i cast one right after the other sometimes the trap gets only the first and the second is wasted, so i have to cast pw kill, at least a couple of spells against the enemy and then pw stun.
obviously what is true for a F->M is also true starting from thief.
this is why i don't find that the triple classes lack of lev 9 spells is a limitation, is not their task to cast them, at least in my play style.
what i like of the FMT is that he frees the need to have an other toon as thief, but compared to a FT has a lot more of protection and utility as secondary mage and compared to a MT has a much better thac0, so misses a lot less, and when stabbing is not an option (by the way i almost never use the mislead trick) can fight, mlee or ranged, much better.
sure there is a price to pay, he takes more time to get a very good backstab multiplyer, but i never had problems in luring away and stabbing multiple times every enemy that is possible to stab.
even in the SoA starting dungeon with tactics mod, where the FMT lacks of equipment and is really at low level (starting from there and not importing him from a previous game, with up to 500k xp.
if i have a FMT in the party even the "russians" party becomes a lot more easy as he has enough thac0 to actually stab them even if they have good armors and much more levels then him. he is the one that make the enemy lev 19 cleric waste his true sight and fallen deva, that appears and disappears in front of the enemy at will luring them one by one, even if they are coded to patrol the area so he can lure and isolate them only for a short window of time. and the fact that the immature demon and the fallen planetar can naturally see trough the invisibility is a plus as he uses it to lure them while the other enemies are not aware of what is happening.
if he can do it with about 100K xp and no equipment he can do it even better later in the game, actually he often clear entire dungeons almost alone.
as here we are talking of charnames and survival i give for granted that the player should have mastered how to stab effectively and how to use each corner of the dungeon that can break the direct sight, even if only for the split second that he can use to hide again. and also the light map of the area has to be known very well, as behind some corners it is almost always successful, in other ones with a little more light it is very risky. and he should have a plan B, if he fails he must have planned a safe route to an other corner, long enough that when he reaches it enough time hs elapsed and he can try to hide again.
@Aurorus if you say that a party FMT is not good as F/M, M/T, and C/M in what they can do i surely agree with you, he is not and never will be so.
but he can cover a role that no one of those can, a party thief that can use his arcane capability to protect himself and has a thac0, and apr, very close to the one of a FT, that let him be a good flanker or ranged support and when needed also a good tank.
and he has a lot of chances to survive doing that.
this is my opinion on the matter, and as i told possibly is due to the mods i use and the fact that i don't play much bg1 (and never had a FMT in it) and don't even own SoD.
it is also due to the fact that i prefer small parties, mostly 3 or 4 people, and usually my charname FMT do the first part of the game as solo so is at a higher level then a FMT that recruits a full party as soon as he can.
my typical party with a FMT charname probably will have also a CM, my beloved aerie, maybe a F->M or a sorcerer, usually Tashia or kelsey, as main mage and maybe haer dalis, jaheira, anomen or keldorn as 4th member.
they gain xp fast, can survive well, and with only 4 toons i have 3 or 4 arcane casters, a couple of divine casters or a divine caster and the inquisitor's dispel magic and at least 3 of them can do a lot of physical damage if i use properly their builds, all 4 if the main mage is a F->M instead of a sorcerer or wild mage.
also the play style matters a lot, i am not saying that what you told is not true, i am telling that it is true for you and the way you like to play, and maybe for the mods you use, or the ones you don't, as i have almost always at least 3 quest mods that grant me more xp, but for other players it can be completely different.