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Baldur's Gate III released into Early Access

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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,163
    edited November 2019
    megamike15 wrote: »
    it's like how fallout fans feel about the games made by Bethesda [ 3,4 and 76].

    . I played Fallout 1 and 2 (Both when 2 released), but I'm also a fan of Fallout 3 and 4 (Never played 76)..

    Talking about Fallout, imagine if fallout New Vegas had the same mechanics of modern RPG's.
    • Anti materieil rifle range will be 13m
    • The projectile atumaticaly disappears after 14m
    • High explosive ammo and incendiary .50 BMG ammo, instead of rare expensive ammo that few merchants has in a limited stock, will gonna be a skill on cooldown that everyone got at lv X.
    • There will be dozens of different 9mm SMG, one dealing 5 and another 5 trillion damage
    • Armor will just absorbs a percentage of damage. So, the damage reduction vs 9mm hollow point will be the same of .308 Winchester Amor Piercing. OR best, remove all types of ammo. All rifles will use the same generic ammo, all pistols the same and etc. But no way that a 9mm pistol and SMG can use the same ammo.
    • No stats, or best. Your IQ and muscle mass will be tied to the boots that you are wearing
    • Oblivion like Level scaling, so no risk of facing deathclaws at low level
    • Skills if exist will be a dumbed down simplistic skill tree and will affect only combat.
    • Toy looking weapons

    I an a huge fallout new vegas fan, but hated FL4 exactly because is too dumbed down. I have a friend who is a gun freak, never liked much games, hated most military shooters(Except ArmA 3) and loved FNV exactly because despite bullet spongee enemies, the gun mechanics are amazing.

    And that is my fear with BG3. How much ""modernized"" it will gonna be?????

    mlnevese wrote: »
    The best way to make something awful is to try to please everyone. This does not apply only to games.


    Yes, like food. "appeal to a larger audience" sounds like "i will try seel meal to a vegan"

    mlnevese
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Why is expecting a sequel to be faithful to its predecessors NOT expected? This seems like the most basic, bare bones requirement for a sequel.

    Adul
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,648
    20 years passed
    Gaming changed, evolved, including RPGs and tactical party RPGs
    A different DnD edition
    Different company
    Different people working on the game
    Different engine
    New platforms
    The story of the original games is finished

    Quartz
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,163
    edited November 2019
    Gaming changed, evolved
    Or devolved, that's purely a matter of view.

    Stronlgy agree. DEVOLVED. When i was young, i was expecting to see in future more depth, more verticality, more physics interacting with weapons and spell effects, more customization and got a ultra streamlined and homogenized experience... Was thinking on a realistic ballistic for archery, combining realistic archery like drag, projectile speed, windage, droppage etc with spell effects and other fantasy elements but got bows that can only hit targets at 13m on this games.

    Risen 3 for example offers way less variety on weapons and spells than Gothic 3. M&M X - Legacy offers much less than M&M VI who had fly and truly 3D dungeons. Skyrim offers much less verticality, spell effects(levitation,mark/recall,etc) and weapons(why no polearms??) than Morrowind. And Baldur's Gate 3 will probably offers much less than Baldur's Gate 2. Any company bigger than OwlCat will only produce carnival bikini armor with 50kg shoulder protection gear, cooldown based wow-clones.

    On Risen 3, the pistol/crossbow range is ludicrous "melee" and if i remember correctly are on cooldown. It makes no sense.
    PS : Here is a guy hitting a target at 403 yards with a bow

  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,216
    Hence why the best course of action is for potential customers to not ride the hype train and instead just wait how it all unfolds. After a year or two it's save to assume all major bugs were fixed, all DLC's have rolled out and the modding community has firmly established itself on the nexus. And as a bonus it will by then have become reasonably cheaper as well.
    The strength of the modding community is what will be the deciding factor for me. I fully expect that the game Larian will release will be lousy from my perspective, because clearly co-op play and consoles/Stadia are the starting point for all of their game making decisions.

    So when Larian decides the game should be TB, not because TB is what is best for this game but because TB is what is best for co-op and consoles, then hopefully someone will make a good RTwP mod that I can use. Similarly, when Larian decides the game should have a party size of 4, not because that is what is best for the game but because that is what is best for co-op and consoles, hopefully someone will make a good mod to increase party size to six as it should be. If such essential mods become available, then I may opt to buy the game.

    Kamigoroshi
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    @Kamigoroshi , @SorcererV1ct0r - have you guys tried Pillars of Eternity, or Pathfinder: Kingmaker? In comparison to those, Baldur's Gate is laughably simplified. If you are a warrior, you are basically locked into your one or two primary weapons... and that's it. If you are a mage - just shuffle spells you use, with small variations when you are specialist. Cleric? You don't even have a god, or a dogma you have to follow. No rule for engagement, strict and stiff armor proficiency points, bare minimum for resting... Not to mention absolutely linear story. Hell, even Tyranny has more going on. I don't think it's fair to say that games "devolved", simply because triple A action-rpgs like Dragon Age are more focused on action, than RPG elements.

    JuliusBorisovSkatan
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    @Artona Why, yes. I'm probably one of he greatest fans of Kingmaker on this site. Same goes for Pillars 2 (which otherwise was underwhelming received by outlets). None of them however are truly representative of mainstream games. This devolution in gaming is also not limited to RPG's per se. Have you tried Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee? A devolved mess of past greatness. Same goes to other major game developers as well. Final Fantasy XV? One, giant mess. Beth- oh... who am I kidding? Even the latest Death Stranding was underwhelming to the point of netting a 64 on metacritic.

    I feel that it is a clear misconception that gaming trends has evolved over the decades. What it did was adapt. And this adaption has mainly catered towards the needs of the casual player base. The more mainstream they get, the less complex games themselves become.

    kanisathaThacoBell
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,648
    I'm not sure, though, those examples are relevant. If anything, PoE and PoE 2, P:K, D:OS and D:OS 2, DA:O are much more relevant when we talk about Larian developing BG3. :) I firmly believe all these games evolved the RPG genre forward, if compared to BG (as sad as it sounds, considering BG is my favourite game).

    MirandelspacejawsQuartz
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Mainstream games and niche games are two pair shoes though. They cater towards two completely different customer groups. Which is why the whole "indie movement scene" a few years back was that successful in the first place. But even that seemingly has come to a halt. Again, I can't agree that gaming as a whole did something so nebulous as "evolve" in one, fell swoop. For that it contradicts itself way too strongly even now.

    Nor do I believe that Larian's next brain child is the future holy grail of gamer. :)

    ThacoBell
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    @Kamigoroshi - I feel like you don't take into account that market has expanded. There are more less complex games (altough, if you compared to original Mario - I don't know), but more niche places and consumers as well. People who played that weird Telltale stuff, those like "Getting over it" (somewhat surprisingly meta for a game), fans of highly complicated Paradox games. And Baldur's Gate III will probably be niche as well - I don't think it'll reach popularity of Red Dead Redemption 2 (btw - do you consider this game to be "catered towards casual player base"?), Minecraft, or CoD:WW2.
    So yeah, there are more simple games, but there are simply more games, as well. So I don't think it's fair to say that games "devolved".

    JuliusBorisovMirandelQuartz
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,163
    edited November 2019
    Artona wrote: »
    have you guys tried Pillars of Eternity, or Pathfinder: Kingmaker? In comparison to those, Baldur's Gate is laughably simplified. If you are a warrior, you are basically locked into your one or two primary weapons... and that's it. If you are a mage - just shuffle spells you use, with small variations when you are specialist. Cleric? You don't even have a god, or a dogma you have to follow. No rule for engagement, strict and stiff armor proficiency points, bare minimum for resting... Not to mention absolutely linear story. Hell, even Tyranny has more going on. I don't think it's fair to say that games "devolved", simply because triple A action-rpgs like Dragon Age are more focused on action, than RPG elements.

    I din't liked PoE 1 but liked PoE 2. My reasons to not like PoE1.
    • Too few casts per rest for non lethal spells. HAving 2~4 casts per rest of wail of the banshee is fine when they can end a hard encounter. Spells on PoE 1 din't lasted much
    • Offers less than other D&D based games. no pre combat summoning, no classes like sorcerer or warlock, only druid as shifter, etc.
    • Is inferior to other OBsidian games in everything. The keep management is far worse than NWN2, the character customization, story, etc too.

    Now Tyranny
    • Cooldowns
    • Ultra spongee enemies aka i need to spend minutes on trash encounters that should end in at best 2 rounds

    The story is amazing, but i will spend 99% of the time fighting humans, using skills on long cooldowns and doing boring stuff.

    But lets compare BioWare games with BioWare games. Do you really think that DA:I or even DA:O gives a fraction of the freedom and options of BG1/NWN1????


    Pathfinder Kingmaker, yes, offers much more freedom and is a much better RPG than any other modern RPG.

    Name one other game where you can assume a silver dragon form and conjure a army
    d1wk436vfbh31.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=634621ae8aef8c4d6cbfd41adcacfe4f916c69e4

    But has his problems. Spell ranges are too limited and sneak attack is too broken for eg.

    Artona
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    @SorcererV1ct0r - I think your reasons for disliking PoE and Tyranny are valid, even if I don't share them. I don't hate cooldowns, for example (but I don't love them either). One universal cooldown is the most sensible approach, I think (like ME1). Still, I wouldn't call them "devolved", especially comparing to BG.
    But lets compare BioWare games with BioWare games. Do you really think that DA:I or even DA:O gives a fraction of the freedom and options of BG1/NWN1????
    I think that's quite difficult question. DA:O's options of customization are roughly comparable to BG1. You have only 4 classes, but there are subclasses within them, and your battle talents (like two-weapon fighting, or sword and shield style) have more influence on actual combat, than proficiency points in Baldur's Gate. Talent are usually actively used, and require decision from a player. DA2 and DA:I are much less complex in character customization.
    However, DA:O has some amazing roleplay choices BG doesn't have - like Landsmeet, or quite fun connection between quests. For example, if you do mages quest first, then you can have their help in Redcliffe. In DA2 you have two quite grey moral choices. In DA:I, you lead entire organisation, can change ruler of Orlais, decline (or not) alliance with Quanari... So there is plenty of freedom and options.

    JuliusBorisov
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    edited November 2019
    I thought the Dialogue wheel of post DA:O games and incredibly tedious quest structure of DA:I pretty much buried any depth those games might have had. DA:I is big and has a lot of content yes.. But most of that is mass produced shit and gameplay padding.

    After the first zone.. I was pretty much exhausted. I'm tempted to say I enjoy the side content in Skyrim considerably more so than in Inquisition.

    The elder scrolls universe is also a lot richer than Dragon ages lore.. So I think they ran out of ideas on where to take the story.

    Kamigoroshi
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,284
    One thing I've pondered over sometimes is what in the consumer Demand vs game play Supply came first? Did gamers really ask for and wanted more simplified games or is it an aquired taste based on the Supply? I have no idea myself, it's a rhetorical question obviously but watching the D4 dev interview got me thinking what's the driving force behind the more streamlined approach to many RPGs where reduce number of stats, less player-made calculations and more aided approaches from the games (ie the game calculating the DPS for you instead of you having to calculate using attack damage * probability for hit * number of attacks + proc hits/chance to proc etc etc).

    I think I might be an oddball, but I think I'm one of those who prefer the meta over the actual gaming in many cases. At least half of my in-game hours of PKM for example is probably character creation, min-maxing etc, rather than actual playing. I haven't even completed it yet even after 100+ hours.

    Hmm.. I think was a bit off topic. I'll just put it in spoilers.

    ArtonamlneveseThacoBell
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    I agree that DA:I is not overall a very good game. It's bloated. I still haven't finished it, despite having over 100 hours in. I could do full run of Baldur's Gate trilogy in similar amount of time... and defeat one or two Cuphead bosses ;).
    But I do not think it's fair to say that it's devolved in comparison to BG. When it comes to moral ambiguity, choices etc., I think it's fair to say that DA:I represents some progress of cRPGs.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Some 'progess' in one direction doesn't negate missed priorities in the rest of its development. That's one step forward, two steps back when compared to DA:O. I don't think it's fair to call that evolved game design at all. Prettier graphics just isn't enough to convince me. For what it is worth it still was a better game than DA2, I give it that at the very least.

    And yet the future of that franchise is just bleak, if the rumours of the next installment truly is nothing but a live service flick riddled with microtransactions. That's one evolved gaming trend I can do very well without.

    ThacoBell
  • spacejawsspacejaws Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 370
    edited November 2019
    I'm not sure, though, those examples are relevant. If anything, PoE and PoE 2, P:K, D:OS and D:OS 2, DA:O are much more relevant when we talk about Larian developing BG3. :) I firmly believe all these games evolved the RPG genre forward, if compared to BG (as sad as it sounds, considering BG is my favourite game).

    Nice to add Dragon Age Origins. It felt like a great mish mash of old school tactical RPG mechanics with the look of a more action orientated title. Similar to Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2. Kinda nails Real Time with Pause, tactical gameplay with a healthy pace.

    Sadly most Dragon Age fans kinda look down on Origins gameplay it seems. I think it's best remembered for having a quite enjoyable story and characters. I still haven't beat Inquisition after about 80 hours (got really annoyed fighting the Lyrium Deep Roads boss who seems to have been designed as a multiplayer boss with human players instead of AI). Game feels more like Diablo than Dragon Age.

    Hell if Baldur's Gate 3 actually turned out like Dragon Age Origins I would tip my hat. I will continue to be cynical until we see gameplay though.

    Post edited by spacejaws on
    JuliusBorisov
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    @Kamigoroshi - I refered to narrative, not to graphics. In that regard, DA:I is more evolved than very linear Baldur's Gate saga, in my opinion. Still, I'm not trying to convince anyone that Dragon Age saga is better than Baldur's Gate. I just think that denying the genre any evolution is a little bit unfair.

    JuliusBorisov
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,611
    you can fix alot of dao combat issues with mods on pc. i got one that makes the combat about kotor speed and it makes the game so much better.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,154
    Skatan wrote: »
    One thing I've pondered over sometimes is what in the consumer Demand vs game play Supply came first? Did gamers really ask for and wanted more simplified games or is it an aquired taste based on the Supply? I have no idea myself, it's a rhetorical question obviously but watching the D4 dev interview got me thinking what's the driving force behind the more streamlined approach to many RPGs where reduce number of stats, less player-made calculations and more aided approaches from the games (ie the game calculating the DPS for you instead of you having to calculate using attack damage * probability for hit * number of attacks + proc hits/chance to proc etc etc).

    I think I might be an oddball, but I think I'm one of those who prefer the meta over the actual gaming in many cases. At least half of my in-game hours of PKM for example is probably character creation, min-maxing etc, rather than actual playing. I haven't even completed it yet even after 100+ hours.

    Hmm.. I think was a bit off topic. I'll just put it in spoilers.

    I think simplified gameplay comes from people having less time to play as they age. As an example I recently bought the complete edition of Civilization VI and between work and children I only had time to play the tutorial afer about a month :)

    We have such busy lives nowadays that gaming time has diminished. That's my personal opinion, though, not based on any market analysis.

    BallpointManAdul
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    mlnevese wrote: »
    Skatan wrote: »
    One thing I've pondered over sometimes is what in the consumer Demand vs game play Supply came first? Did gamers really ask for and wanted more simplified games or is it an aquired taste based on the Supply? I have no idea myself, it's a rhetorical question obviously but watching the D4 dev interview got me thinking what's the driving force behind the more streamlined approach to many RPGs where reduce number of stats, less player-made calculations and more aided approaches from the games (ie the game calculating the DPS for you instead of you having to calculate using attack damage * probability for hit * number of attacks + proc hits/chance to proc etc etc).

    I think I might be an oddball, but I think I'm one of those who prefer the meta over the actual gaming in many cases. At least half of my in-game hours of PKM for example is probably character creation, min-maxing etc, rather than actual playing. I haven't even completed it yet even after 100+ hours.

    Hmm.. I think was a bit off topic. I'll just put it in spoilers.

    I think simplified gameplay comes from people having less time to play as they age. As an example I recently bought the complete edition of Civilization VI and between work and children I only had time to play the tutorial afer about a month :)

    We have such busy lives nowadays that gaming time has diminished. That's my personal opinion, though, not based on any market analysis.

    On average we gamers are definitely less willing to engage today with long-form gaming content and complex systems compared to 20 years ago. As I see it, there's a variety of factors contributing to this.
    1. As mentioned, the average age of gamers is slowly crawling up, and adults have less time to spend on gaming than kids do.
    2. Arguably, the internet age and the ubiquity of smart phones are contributing to people of all ages having shorter attention spans and preferring instant gratification.
    3. In order to market themselves effectively against their competition, mainsteam games have a tendency to push the envelope in photorealism and high-end graphics, resulting in perpetually skyrocketing production costs across the industry. A lot of studios and publishers tend to offset these increasing production costs by cutting back the amount of content and complexity of systems, which in turn has trained gamers to become accustomed to more condensed and simpler forms of gameplay.

    Really it's an unholy alliance between current market circumstances and the effects of modern life conveniences, and for the people who like the same sorts of games that I do it's a cause for heartache and frustration.

    batoorKamigoroshimlneveseQuartz
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,216
    I think it's important to note that when one speaks of gamers becoming older, this is specific to RPG gamers and not gamers overall. I feel, sadly, that the classic old-school RPG genre is not going to last much longer. We've had an RPG "rennaissance" of sorts in recent years leading to many people claiming that the classic RPG is back. I disagree. I think it is very similar to how "oldies" radio stations go back in time and play music from about 20 years ago as sort of a last hurrah for the people who love that music who are now in their middle age. It lasts for a few years and then people move on to the next last hurrah. This is what the classic RPG is currently going through - its last hurrah. I don't see too many young gamers caring about that genre of games at all.

    Adulmlnevese
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    Tactical CRPGs are also not console friendly (despite Beamdog's and Skybound Games' efforts), which is another reason for their increasing obscurity.

    mlneveseSjerrieQuartz
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,175
    I do not think this is true about young/modern gamers. A classical RPG may not sell as well as the next AAA shooter, but there is definitely a market for them. The D:OS games (they are classical RPGs in structure, I just don't think they are that good) alone proof that, as does in a more limited way the success of Wow Classic vs Retail.

    Looking beyond RPGs there are quite a number of other high time/complexity/difficulty games still around: Kerbal Space Program and Dark Souls to name just two of them.

  • LottiLotti Member Posts: 66
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Nothing about mainstream gaming is "evolved". Especially withe the massive push towards games as a service that large companies want. Online only, microtransactions, multiplayer only (or heavily focused). If this is "evolution" then someone needs to reset the universe. Honestly, if it wasn't for the indie game industry, I honestly think that we would be heading to the next big industry collapse.

    Nonsense, just look at games like Age of Wonders, and the whole 4X and grand strategy industry that is thriving. They are deep games where quality of life has improved immensely over last decades.

    Of course, you getting older, will see the decline of your world, and only if you compensate for that inevitable psychological filter would you be able to see developments more objectively.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    edited November 2019
    Lotti wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Nothing about mainstream gaming is "evolved". Especially withe the massive push towards games as a service that large companies want. Online only, microtransactions, multiplayer only (or heavily focused). If this is "evolution" then someone needs to reset the universe. Honestly, if it wasn't for the indie game industry, I honestly think that we would be heading to the next big industry collapse.

    Nonsense, just look at games like Age of Wonders, and the whole 4X and grand strategy industry that is thriving. They are deep games where quality of life has improved immensely over last decades.

    Of course, you getting older, will see the decline of your world, and only if you compensate for that inevitable psychological filter would you be able to see developments more objectively.

    4x games are not rpgs.

    This isn't even a rebuttal of my statement. The existence of 4x games (a niche genre) does not mean that somehow microtransactions aren't in almost every game, or that more and mroe games every year are forced online only, even if they are supposedly single player.

    Post edited by ThacoBell on
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,216
    Ammar wrote: »
    I do not think this is true about young/modern gamers. A classical RPG may not sell as well as the next AAA shooter, but there is definitely a market for them. The D:OS games (they are classical RPGs in structure, I just don't think they are that good) alone proof that, as does in a more limited way the success of Wow Classic vs Retail.
    Sorry but no. Even D:OS2 with all of its sales hype is very much a niche RPG that is far from mainstream. And I am speaking only of RPGs here and not videogames generally. According to Swen Vincke in a recent interview D:OS2 sales were well under 2 million. By contrast sales for games like Skyrim, Fallout 4, Witcher 3, and even the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games are in the many millions and even often tens of millions. CDPR recently acknowledged that TW3 sales are now well past 25 million and still going strong four years since launch. Skyrim sales are over 30 million. I fully expect Cyberpunk2077 to sell at least 5 million units on Day 1 of its release. These games are mainstream RPGs. Games from studios like Obsidian, inXile, and yes even Larian are very, very, very niche and not mainstream - at least for now. Obsidian for one has openly talked about making a true AAA open world game "like Skyrim" for some time now.

    mlneveseKamigoroshiThacoBell
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