The absence of guns, at least within the Capitol building itself, is worth mentioning. It makes it less brazen of an assault on the Capitol, and less surprising that police officers only suffered injuries, without fatalities. The fascists broke through using sheer force of numbers and muscle.
A gun was found on the Capitol grounds in a cooler, actually, and 5 of the 68 people arrested were arrested for weapons charges. There were weapons present, apparently...
I think the use of the fascism here is of particular value precisely because it is so often incorrectly attributed. It is a buzz word that is commonly thrown around to try to make the right look like they've reached "enemy of the people" status. Its use is analogous to "Marxist" in modern parlance for the same reason on the left.
The difference is, the shoe actually fits right now. These people are embodying fascistic beliefs. They probably dont even realize it
To quote Wikipedia;
"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy ... Opposed to liberalism, democracy, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far right within the traditional left–right spectrum."
The part I left out was just the origin statement that Fascism originated in 20th century Europe.
When rioters attack the seat of a liberal democracy with the intent to preventing the transition of power (creating a dictator) at the behest of their leader (he who would be dictator), you're on your way to being a fascist. This was a demonstration of authoritarianism. They carried USA flags and wore "Make America Great Again" hats, demonstrating nationalism bordering on ultranationalism. The riot was meant to suppress the opposition. They carried white nationalist symbols like Confederate flags, pointing to the "regimentation of society". There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that members of the crowd were opposed to liberalism, democracy (by trying to overturn it), marxism and anarchism.
Look. Do I think these rioters were horribly misled by their president? Absolutely yes. Do I think *they* consider themselves Fascists? No. Do I think they think they were doing their utmost to protect the constitution? Probably yeah. None of that means much of anything though. They acted in a way that makes them virtually indistinguishable from the black/brown shirts of the early 20th century.
Fascism is a shoe, and right now - for these people - it fits.
I just realized I made the same mistake again. When guns weren't visible in the most commonly-posted photos of the attack, I assumed that meant the folks inside were unarmed. Turns out the police confiscated five different guns from the fascists, and that's just the people that the outmanned police force was able to apprehend. Others would have walked free.
Once again I assumed things weren't as bad as I feared, and was wrong. They were armed.
If I was a prosecutor with jurisdiction, I'd be willing to offer this to public right now: Trump resigns and turns himself in on charges of inciting an attack on another co-equal branch of government. He falls on his sword, the people he manipulated and worked into a frenzy can walk as one last show of good faith. I know this is fantasy poppycock, but this is the only hypothetical scenario where I'm willing to grant what are essentially pardons for what happend. If it were me. I know this isn't even legally realistic. More a declaration of principle and values. Someone has to face consequences.
If I was a prosecutor with jurisdiction, I'd be willing to offer this to public right now: Trump resigns and turns himself in on charges of inciting an attack on another co-equal branch of government. He falls on his sword, the people he manipulated and worked into a frenzy can walk as one last show of good faith. I know this is fantasy poppycock, but this is the only hypothetical scenario where I'm willing to grant what are essentially pardons for what happend. If it were me.
It'll never happen. I doubt Trump even gives enough of a shit about these people to bother pardoning them.
If I was a prosecutor with jurisdiction, I'd be willing to offer this to public right now: Trump resigns and turns himself in on charges of inciting an attack on another co-equal branch of government. He falls on his sword, the people he manipulated and worked into a frenzy can walk as one last show of good faith. I know this is fantasy poppycock, but this is the only hypothetical scenario where I'm willing to grant what are essentially pardons for what happend. If it were me.
It'll never happen. I doubt Trump even gives enough of a shit about these people to bother pardoning them.
I know, but I'm doing my absolute best here. It's fantasy, Hollywood-ending type stuff.
I wonder how the MAGA terrorists feel about being labelled "Antifa" now.
Since this is partially all a game to them, they almost certainly think it's the height of amusement.
As someone said, in some ways, before the storming of the building, alot of this (part of the crowd) was really just militia cosplay. Larping, if you will. However, it only took a small flame from Trump's match to move it into the realm of reality. Pretend to be something long enough, eventually you become it. When they took Trump's direction and marched down Pennsylvania Ave. and broke those barricades down, they crossed thr rubicon into historically dangerous territory. Did many of them even realize it?? Who knows?? Did the people at Jonestown REALLY think the Kool-Aid was laced with poison?? After all, Jim Jones had ran the same drill mutiple times before just to test them. Yesterday, their Kool-Aid was finally laced. The moment came, and they took the ride.
The willingness to believe that the fascists who stormed the Capitol at Trump's bidding were actually Antifa is another testament to the right's ability to believe absolutely ANYTHING that makes the left look evil or the right look innocent. Anything that justifies the right's actions is true, even if it's multiple, mutually-conflicting ideas.
The invasion was bad, but it was actually Antifa.
The invasion was good, because they were standing up to [insert whatever demon you want].
The invasion was bad, but it only happened because liberals provoked us with all the stuff they do.
The invasion was good, because Trump won and we can't let them steal the election.
The invasion was bad, but it doesn't matter because the liberals are worse. BLM or whatever.
Can we truly measure the level of both stupidity and chutzpah of these people?? Here is a woman admitting and broadcasting on social media that she helped break down the door of the Speaker of the House and steal her gavel, and she's treating it like she's describing what she did on her summer vacation:
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
A gun was found on the Capitol grounds in a cooler, actually, and 5 of the 68 people arrested were arrested for weapons charges. There were weapons present, apparently...
This is why I initially thought that there would be photos of armed protesters. Since there were reports that weapons had been confiscated, I assumed that there would be photographic evidence. Which suggests that either a) no photographer was present or took notice of those five people, or b) their weapons were concealed.
Granted, five people out of roughly a thousand is a small sample, and if we're being objective, it's not representative of the entire protest. However, I don't believe that this automatically makes the protest non-violent. It certainly makes it much less violent than if the majority of the protesters were armed, but I wouldn't agree to describe it as entirely peaceful.
It seems half the Cabinet has resigned today, and since Pence isn't invoking the 25th, the House is now moving ever closer to impeaching again. Jerry Nadler just signed on to it bypassing his committee, and if that's the case then Pelosi may have no choice but to reconvene and put this to a vote. Nadler would not go rogue like this. Politically, this Obama speechwriter is 100% right:
If Trump IS successfully impeached, he CANNOT run again in 2024, or ever.
For the record, it's the Squad (aka, the ones with the stones to fight back) who are pushing this forward. A signal that they understand what they are facing on the other side, understand they have power, and that you use it or lose it:
Can we truly measure the level of both stupidity and chutzpah of these people?? Here is a woman admitting and broadcasting on social media that she helped break down the door of the Speaker of the House and steal her gavel, and she's treating it like she's describing what she did on her summer vacation:
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
Not an argument or contention, just I would disagree with, “who they are”.
I really rub people the wrong way, very cognizant of that fact. I am opinionated, outspoken and can be more than a little harsh. I don’t want to be, I would love to be normal but I am not. I get a head of steam and the weird part of my brain that thinks up something foolish and sends it to my mouth, or thumbs, thinking it is a good idea. Never consulting the part of my brain that is responsible for, “ But is it though?” I know and am very sorry. Being honest, you set that off in my brain more than anyone else here, because you are so one sided and take pessimism/negativity to a whole new level. I try to moderate my responses but continually fail. For that you have my sincerest apology.
Not who they are, seriously you have no idea who they are. Not a good statement when you you have no idea what they are thinking. At least half of them did what they did because they thought it was the right course, the patriotic thing to do. Yes, it does set my brain off when people presume to know what others are thinking that they clearly do not understand. They were definitely wrong. Ever been to a Special Olympics? It is amazing, yet they do not think the way I do, gotta be honest that probably no one thinks like me, but are they wrong? The thing you scoffed at before, education, really makes the difference. So why judge those that are less educated or see less clearly than ourselves? No, I am not well educated, but I think things through. Yeah, most of the time, tend to say the wrong thing at the wrong time . You have made them so awful and you don’t even know them. I do, I grew up with them, most are not so bad. Gotta say that toxic masculinity is reaching brand new highs in this country today. Makes me sick.
Many of them thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing and were willing to pay the price. They never expected to get away with it because of “who the are”. Sorry for once again singling you out.
TBH - I really thought Trump's "Closest thing to a concession speech" he put out today would be enough. That lawmakers would take that to mean Trump will take no further action of incitement or anything, and just leave well enough alone - so they dont need to try to impeach him again.
I guess I was wrong. Maybe I cant blame them. From their perspective, he put their lives at risk.
Edit - This is a huge accusation. If it bears out, then you can throw my argument about the police out in the cold. It might be hard to reliably prove something like this, but yikes...
Can we truly measure the level of both stupidity and chutzpah of these people?? Here is a woman admitting and broadcasting on social media that she helped break down the door of the Speaker of the House and steal her gavel, and she's treating it like she's describing what she did on her summer vacation:
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
Not an argument or contention, just I would disagree with, “who they are”.
I really rub people the wrong way, very cognizant of that fact. I am opinionated, outspoken and can be more than a little harsh. I don’t want to be, I would love to be normal but I am not. I get a head of steam and the weird part of my brain that thinks up something foolish and sends it to my mouth, or thumbs, thinking it is a good idea. Never consulting the part of my brain that is responsible for, “ But is it though?” I know and am very sorry. Being honest, you set that off in my brain more than anyone else here, because you are so one sided and take pessimism/negativity to a whole new level. I try to moderate my responses but continually fail. For that you have my sincerest apology.
Not who they are, seriously you have no idea who they are. Not a good statement when you you have no idea what they are thinking. At least half of them did what they did because they thought it was the right course, the patriotic thing to do. Yes, it does set my brain off when people presume to know what others are thinking that they clearly do not understand. They were definitely wrong. Ever been to a Special Olympics? It is amazing, yet they do not think the way I do, gotta be honest that probably no one thinks like me, but are they wrong? The thing you scoffed at before, education, really makes the difference. So why judge those that are less educated or see less clearly than ourselves? No, I am not well educated, but I think things through. Yeah, most of the time, tend to say the wrong thing at the wrong time . You have made them so awful and you don’t even know them. I do, I grew up with them, most are not so bad. Gotta say that toxic masculinity is reaching brand new highs in this country today. Makes me sick.
Many of them thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing and were willing to pay the price. They never expected to get away with it because of “who the are”. Sorry for once again singling you out.
Let me put it slightly differently. They have no fear of repercussions from law enforcement or prosecution, and seem genuinely shocked when they finally turned on them. That is abundantly clear. Why??
TBH - I really thought Trump's "Closest thing to a concession speech" he put out today would be enough. That lawmakers would take that to mean Trump will take no further action of incitement or anything, and just leave well enough alone - so they dont need to try to impeach him again.
I guess I was wrong. Maybe I cant blame them. From their perspective, he put their lives at risk.
Edit - This is a huge accusation. If it bears out, then you can throw my argument about the police out in the cold. It might be hard to reliably prove something like this, but yikes...
Trump's statement is useless. His mood changes at the drop of a hat. It's far too late for that. Reporting suggests he now finally realizes he is facing the real possibility of legal exposure the second he leaves office, and he's terrified. Not a good situation. I don't care about his "concession" anymore than I care about what Lindsay Graham said last night. It's meaningless.
Can we truly measure the level of both stupidity and chutzpah of these people?? Here is a woman admitting and broadcasting on social media that she helped break down the door of the Speaker of the House and steal her gavel, and she's treating it like she's describing what she did on her summer vacation:
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
Not an argument or contention, just I would disagree with, “who they are”.
I really rub people the wrong way, very cognizant of that fact. I am opinionated, outspoken and can be more than a little harsh. I don’t want to be, I would love to be normal but I am not. I get a head of steam and the weird part of my brain that thinks up something foolish and sends it to my mouth, or thumbs, thinking it is a good idea. Never consulting the part of my brain that is responsible for, “ But is it though?” I know and am very sorry. Being honest, you set that off in my brain more than anyone else here, because you are so one sided and take pessimism/negativity to a whole new level. I try to moderate my responses but continually fail. For that you have my sincerest apology.
Not who they are, seriously you have no idea who they are. Not a good statement when you you have no idea what they are thinking. At least half of them did what they did because they thought it was the right course, the patriotic thing to do. Yes, it does set my brain off when people presume to know what others are thinking that they clearly do not understand. They were definitely wrong. Ever been to a Special Olympics? It is amazing, yet they do not think the way I do, gotta be honest that probably no one thinks like me, but are they wrong? The thing you scoffed at before, education, really makes the difference. So why judge those that are less educated or see less clearly than ourselves? No, I am not well educated, but I think things through. Yeah, most of the time, tend to say the wrong thing at the wrong time . You have made them so awful and you don’t even know them. I do, I grew up with them, most are not so bad. Gotta say that toxic masculinity is reaching brand new highs in this country today. Makes me sick.
Many of them thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing and were willing to pay the price. They never expected to get away with it because of “who the are”. Sorry for once again singling you out.
Let me put it slightly differently. They have no fear of repercussions from law enforcement or prosecution, and seem genuinely shocked when they finally turned on them. That is abundantly clear. Why??
Because they gave to the National Police Fund and bought tickets to the policeman's ball. Plus they pray for them all the time...
Can we truly measure the level of both stupidity and chutzpah of these people?? Here is a woman admitting and broadcasting on social media that she helped break down the door of the Speaker of the House and steal her gavel, and she's treating it like she's describing what she did on her summer vacation:
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
Not an argument or contention, just I would disagree with, “who they are”.
I really rub people the wrong way, very cognizant of that fact. I am opinionated, outspoken and can be more than a little harsh. I don’t want to be, I would love to be normal but I am not. I get a head of steam and the weird part of my brain that thinks up something foolish and sends it to my mouth, or thumbs, thinking it is a good idea. Never consulting the part of my brain that is responsible for, “ But is it though?” I know and am very sorry. Being honest, you set that off in my brain more than anyone else here, because you are so one sided and take pessimism/negativity to a whole new level. I try to moderate my responses but continually fail. For that you have my sincerest apology.
Not who they are, seriously you have no idea who they are. Not a good statement when you you have no idea what they are thinking. At least half of them did what they did because they thought it was the right course, the patriotic thing to do. Yes, it does set my brain off when people presume to know what others are thinking that they clearly do not understand. They were definitely wrong. Ever been to a Special Olympics? It is amazing, yet they do not think the way I do, gotta be honest that probably no one thinks like me, but are they wrong? The thing you scoffed at before, education, really makes the difference. So why judge those that are less educated or see less clearly than ourselves? No, I am not well educated, but I think things through. Yeah, most of the time, tend to say the wrong thing at the wrong time . You have made them so awful and you don’t even know them. I do, I grew up with them, most are not so bad. Gotta say that toxic masculinity is reaching brand new highs in this country today. Makes me sick.
Many of them thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing and were willing to pay the price. They never expected to get away with it because of “who the are”. Sorry for once again singling you out.
Let me put it slightly differently. They have no fear of repercussions from law enforcement or prosecution, and seem genuinely shocked when they finally turned on them. That is abundantly clear. Why??
They thought it was a sham, that the nation was really behind DT and if they just stood up for reality everyone would be like, Yeah okay, I am with you. Obviously they were delusional, but it came from seeing only one side. They are not the only ones who believe solely in their own point of view though are they? How many here would drink the Kool-Aid if the person that was passing it out had views that ran perpendicular to their own?
TBH - I really thought Trump's "Closest thing to a concession speech" he put out today would be enough. That lawmakers would take that to mean Trump will take no further action of incitement or anything, and just leave well enough alone - so they dont need to try to impeach him again.
I guess I was wrong. Maybe I cant blame them. From their perspective, he put their lives at risk.
Edit - This is a huge accusation. If it bears out, then you can throw my argument about the police out in the cold. It might be hard to reliably prove something like this, but yikes...
Trump's statement is useless. His mood changes at the drop of a hat. It's far too late for that. Reporting suggests he now finally realizes he is facing the real possibility of legal exposure the second he leaves office, and he's terrified. Not a good situation. I don't care about his "concession" anymore than I care about what Lindsay Graham said last night. It's meaningless.
Honestly - you're probably right. I was just being a little naïve and hoping that things would settle down and we'd just get through these last 14 days.
It's probably too late to do the bare minimum of expectations and concede and try to leave with what miniscule amount of dignity you have left. That bridge was burnt.
Can we truly measure the level of both stupidity and chutzpah of these people?? Here is a woman admitting and broadcasting on social media that she helped break down the door of the Speaker of the House and steal her gavel, and she's treating it like she's describing what she did on her summer vacation:
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
Not an argument or contention, just I would disagree with, “who they are”.
I really rub people the wrong way, very cognizant of that fact. I am opinionated, outspoken and can be more than a little harsh. I don’t want to be, I would love to be normal but I am not. I get a head of steam and the weird part of my brain that thinks up something foolish and sends it to my mouth, or thumbs, thinking it is a good idea. Never consulting the part of my brain that is responsible for, “ But is it though?” I know and am very sorry. Being honest, you set that off in my brain more than anyone else here, because you are so one sided and take pessimism/negativity to a whole new level. I try to moderate my responses but continually fail. For that you have my sincerest apology.
Not who they are, seriously you have no idea who they are. Not a good statement when you you have no idea what they are thinking. At least half of them did what they did because they thought it was the right course, the patriotic thing to do. Yes, it does set my brain off when people presume to know what others are thinking that they clearly do not understand. They were definitely wrong. Ever been to a Special Olympics? It is amazing, yet they do not think the way I do, gotta be honest that probably no one thinks like me, but are they wrong? The thing you scoffed at before, education, really makes the difference. So why judge those that are less educated or see less clearly than ourselves? No, I am not well educated, but I think things through. Yeah, most of the time, tend to say the wrong thing at the wrong time . You have made them so awful and you don’t even know them. I do, I grew up with them, most are not so bad. Gotta say that toxic masculinity is reaching brand new highs in this country today. Makes me sick.
Many of them thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing and were willing to pay the price. They never expected to get away with it because of “who the are”. Sorry for once again singling you out.
Let me put it slightly differently. They have no fear of repercussions from law enforcement or prosecution, and seem genuinely shocked when they finally turned on them. That is abundantly clear. Why??
Because they gave to the National Police Fund and bought tickets to the policeman's ball. Plus they pray for them all the time...
Ok, so, everyone else can now discuss how this changes the dynamic, I'm just delivering the information. One of the Capitol Hill Officers has died from injuries sustained in the incident. He was apparently hit or beaten with a fire extinguisher. Earlier reports he had passed away weren't yet correct, but apparently he has now. Gonna be hard for the party that embraced Blue Lives Matter to slither away from the fact that the President is basically directly responsible for the death of a cop. My view is that just got a lot more serious for anyone who was in that building.
Ok, so, everyone else can now discuss how this changes the dynamic, I'm just delivering the information. One of the Capitol Hill Officers has died from injuries sustained in the incident. He was apparently hit or beaten with a fire extinguisher. Earlier reports he had passed away weren't yet correct, but apparently he has now. Gonna be hard for the party that embraced Blue Lives Matter to slither away from the fact that the President is basically directly responsible for the death of a cop. My view is that just got a lot more serious for anyone who was in that building.
It was just pointed out that more people have now died due to the events of the attack at the capitol than died in Benghazi.
Oh - and 4000 people died yesterday of COVID.
Trump will go down as the worst president in US history. He's shockingly going to displace Buchannan and Pierce.
While Donald Trump is banned from social media he still has the authority to launch nuclear strikes. Hopefully that changes very quickly.
On a semantic point coups usually involve military forces trying to impose new regimes rather than efforts to prevent the transition of power, so this seems more like a case of sedition. Though there are surely some more idiots out there who are planning coups.
The ready presence of guns in American public life is, in my opinion, going to have an increasingly corrosive effect going forward. Not only do they provide actual power, they also give an illusion of power. It would take very little for a much greater number of people to die in this kind of incident.
"At" a government building?? No. Protests "at" a government building are the stuff you see outside the Supreme Court every time a major decision is about to come down. These people were "in" a government building, and they were "in" that building because they literally broke into the Senate and House chambers to stop the electoral vote certification. Successfully. Which you continue to purposefully ignore because it shatters the rest of your arguments. To which you are just gonna respond "I don't believe the democracy in the US is legitimate anymore" and, to be honest, we don't need to be told that at this point, so you might as well save yourself the hassle of typing the extra sentence.
It didn't take me more than 5 minutes to find examples of protests within very recent memory within government buildings. With the intent to delay proceedings, no less. Just say that you have different standards because you hate them. There is virtually no meaningful distinction.
I suppose it depends what you consider meaningful. Points I would consider to be so:
- though both protests took place at government buildings, only one was aimed at the occupants of that building. I agree that both were aimed at influencing decisions, but only one was using physical coercion as the means of influence.
- there was no violence against either people or property used at the Hart Senate offices. That's not just based on the video evidence you linked - there were multiple arrests of protestors and 302 of them were charged, but all for "crowding, obstructing or incommoding".
The one killed person whose name we know is Ashli Babbit. Not sure if she was armed at the time, visibly or otherwise, but apparently she was shot when attempting to climb through a broken window during the police's last stand in defending the chamber where the legislators were hiding from the mob.
There's video of her being shot while trying to climb past the barricade on the chamber doors. It's true that there are armed police behind her and the situation did not appear to be totally out of control at that stage. However, the situation was certainly volatile and it's not clear how good an assessment of that the police officer inside the chamber would have been able to make. I also don't know who else was in the chamber at that point. If Congressmen were still there that would be an extra reason for that policemen to be worried.
TBH - I really thought Trump's "Closest thing to a concession speech" he put out today would be enough. That lawmakers would take that to mean Trump will take no further action of incitement or anything, and just leave well enough alone - so they dont need to try to impeach him again.
I guess I was wrong. Maybe I cant blame them. From their perspective, he put their lives at risk.
Edit - This is a huge accusation. If it bears out, then you can throw my argument about the police out in the cold. It might be hard to reliably prove something like this, but yikes...
Trump's statement is useless. His mood changes at the drop of a hat. It's far too late for that. Reporting suggests he now finally realizes he is facing the real possibility of legal exposure the second he leaves office, and he's terrified. Not a good situation. I don't care about his "concession" anymore than I care about what Lindsay Graham said last night. It's meaningless.
He read from a teleprompter.
It's not what he really wants to say. But hey at least he read from the teleprompter instead of saying some ugly boasting lying crap that he instinctively wanted to say.
So the bar is so low it's on the floor and he stepped over it. Cue the pundits probably saying "and today is the day that Donald Trump became President" and other praise for reading from a teleprompter and not being his usual asshole self
But yeah his statement is worthless. He would say something different as soon as he thinks he can get away with it. He's literally been pushing for this coup for months now since he lost the election.
As some of you may know, my tone in the currently-closed politics thread lately and my tone has definitely shifted. The moderating team contacted me about the trend, and in retrospect, I think I need to apologize for generalizing about the "other side." They have not asked me to apologize; this was my idea. I think I need to model better behavior for the community. This forum has always held higher standards for conduct than most places on the Internet, and I should live up to them. Everyone, after all, is capable of paying respect.
I apologize for making those comments. I won't bother excusing them or trying to minimize or explain them away; I don't believe in that. I take full responsibility for my words, and I'm sorry. I don't want to send anyone the message that they're not welcome here--*or* that anyone is allowed to bully other people or propagate negative stereotypes.
This community has always been one of the kindest and most respectful places I've been. But it only stays that way as long as we hold ourselves to high standards. I need to do the same.
You folks have been kind to me. I'm sorry for breaking that pattern of respect.
We're now reopening the thread and hope that the behaviour of its participants will improve. The previous several pages of this discussion are full of stereotyping and other rule-breaking behaviour, and that is not what we want to encourage. Please re-read the thread rules before continuing:
Rule 1: No Flaming, Personal Attacks, or Disrespectful Behavior
Rule 2: No Trolling, Baiting, or Needling
Rule 3: No Bigotry or Stereotyping
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Rule 5: Keep Things Substantive
Rule 6: Be Clear
Rule 7: Report Rulebreaking Posts to a Moderator--Not the Whole World
Comments
The difference is, the shoe actually fits right now. These people are embodying fascistic beliefs. They probably dont even realize it
To quote Wikipedia;
"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy ... Opposed to liberalism, democracy, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far right within the traditional left–right spectrum."
The part I left out was just the origin statement that Fascism originated in 20th century Europe.
When rioters attack the seat of a liberal democracy with the intent to preventing the transition of power (creating a dictator) at the behest of their leader (he who would be dictator), you're on your way to being a fascist. This was a demonstration of authoritarianism. They carried USA flags and wore "Make America Great Again" hats, demonstrating nationalism bordering on ultranationalism. The riot was meant to suppress the opposition. They carried white nationalist symbols like Confederate flags, pointing to the "regimentation of society". There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that members of the crowd were opposed to liberalism, democracy (by trying to overturn it), marxism and anarchism.
Look. Do I think these rioters were horribly misled by their president? Absolutely yes. Do I think *they* consider themselves Fascists? No. Do I think they think they were doing their utmost to protect the constitution? Probably yeah. None of that means much of anything though. They acted in a way that makes them virtually indistinguishable from the black/brown shirts of the early 20th century.
Fascism is a shoe, and right now - for these people - it fits.
Once again I assumed things weren't as bad as I feared, and was wrong. They were armed.
It'll never happen. I doubt Trump even gives enough of a shit about these people to bother pardoning them.
I know, but I'm doing my absolute best here. It's fantasy, Hollywood-ending type stuff.
Since this is partially all a game to them, they almost certainly think it's the height of amusement.
As someone said, in some ways, before the storming of the building, alot of this (part of the crowd) was really just militia cosplay. Larping, if you will. However, it only took a small flame from Trump's match to move it into the realm of reality. Pretend to be something long enough, eventually you become it. When they took Trump's direction and marched down Pennsylvania Ave. and broke those barricades down, they crossed thr rubicon into historically dangerous territory. Did many of them even realize it?? Who knows?? Did the people at Jonestown REALLY think the Kool-Aid was laced with poison?? After all, Jim Jones had ran the same drill mutiple times before just to test them. Yesterday, their Kool-Aid was finally laced. The moment came, and they took the ride.
The invasion was bad, but it was actually Antifa.
The invasion was good, because they were standing up to [insert whatever demon you want].
The invasion was bad, but it only happened because liberals provoked us with all the stuff they do.
The invasion was good, because Trump won and we can't let them steal the election.
The invasion was bad, but it doesn't matter because the liberals are worse. BLM or whatever.
I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to forgive the criminality that went on here given this kind of attitude. I think it might offend me more than the act itself. All it says to me is "we own this country, we'll do anything we please, and no one will stop us, because look at us, we're PATRIOTS".
Listen to what she is saying here: "we didn't vandalize anything, but we DID break down Nancy Pelosi's office door". I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how this sentence exists. This kind of thing makes me wonder if relatives should have her committed. What planet are these people even on at this point??
In all seriousness, this seems to me to be the real problem here. These people (almost entirely white, entirely "Christian", entirely politically conservative) clearly think they are immune to the rules and standards they DEMAND everyone else live under. THIS is the issue. Trump has made them feel like they have a special class of citizenship, and they are acting like it. Unless folks think it's totally normal to admit to Federal crimes as a goof.
I mean fuck, at least anarchists have the sense to wear masks and not want to be identified. These people CLEARLY don't think what they did is a crime because of who they are. The concept they could even be considered criminals is completely alien to them:
I looked into the social media history of the woman who was killed. Attractive young woman who seems to have legitimately lost her mind. She is a warning about what Qanon can do, because as far as I can tell she absolutely believed she was going to DC to be on the ground for "the storm", as they like to call it. "The Storm" is essentially a mass purge of all anti-Trump elements of the United States government. She's a tragic figure, but she wasn't going to the Capitol for a photo-op based on her own comments. She was going for revolution. She was, at this point, an outright zealot.
There is an argument to be made based on her story that these people need to do at least some time behind bars (if proven the committed a crime) as a sort of intervention, because they are not well. And if they get away with this time after time, the behavior will escalate.
This is why I initially thought that there would be photos of armed protesters. Since there were reports that weapons had been confiscated, I assumed that there would be photographic evidence. Which suggests that either a) no photographer was present or took notice of those five people, or b) their weapons were concealed.
Granted, five people out of roughly a thousand is a small sample, and if we're being objective, it's not representative of the entire protest. However, I don't believe that this automatically makes the protest non-violent. It certainly makes it much less violent than if the majority of the protesters were armed, but I wouldn't agree to describe it as entirely peaceful.
If Trump IS successfully impeached, he CANNOT run again in 2024, or ever.
For the record, it's the Squad (aka, the ones with the stones to fight back) who are pushing this forward. A signal that they understand what they are facing on the other side, understand they have power, and that you use it or lose it:
Not an argument or contention, just I would disagree with, “who they are”.
I really rub people the wrong way, very cognizant of that fact. I am opinionated, outspoken and can be more than a little harsh. I don’t want to be, I would love to be normal but I am not. I get a head of steam and the weird part of my brain that thinks up something foolish and sends it to my mouth, or thumbs, thinking it is a good idea. Never consulting the part of my brain that is responsible for, “ But is it though?” I know and am very sorry. Being honest, you set that off in my brain more than anyone else here, because you are so one sided and take pessimism/negativity to a whole new level. I try to moderate my responses but continually fail. For that you have my sincerest apology.
Not who they are, seriously you have no idea who they are. Not a good statement when you you have no idea what they are thinking. At least half of them did what they did because they thought it was the right course, the patriotic thing to do. Yes, it does set my brain off when people presume to know what others are thinking that they clearly do not understand. They were definitely wrong. Ever been to a Special Olympics? It is amazing, yet they do not think the way I do, gotta be honest that probably no one thinks like me, but are they wrong? The thing you scoffed at before, education, really makes the difference. So why judge those that are less educated or see less clearly than ourselves? No, I am not well educated, but I think things through. Yeah, most of the time, tend to say the wrong thing at the wrong time . You have made them so awful and you don’t even know them. I do, I grew up with them, most are not so bad. Gotta say that toxic masculinity is reaching brand new highs in this country today. Makes me sick.
Many of them thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing and were willing to pay the price. They never expected to get away with it because of “who the are”. Sorry for once again singling you out.
I guess I was wrong. Maybe I cant blame them. From their perspective, he put their lives at risk.
Edit - This is a huge accusation. If it bears out, then you can throw my argument about the police out in the cold. It might be hard to reliably prove something like this, but yikes...
Let me put it slightly differently. They have no fear of repercussions from law enforcement or prosecution, and seem genuinely shocked when they finally turned on them. That is abundantly clear. Why??
Trump's statement is useless. His mood changes at the drop of a hat. It's far too late for that. Reporting suggests he now finally realizes he is facing the real possibility of legal exposure the second he leaves office, and he's terrified. Not a good situation. I don't care about his "concession" anymore than I care about what Lindsay Graham said last night. It's meaningless.
Because they gave to the National Police Fund and bought tickets to the policeman's ball. Plus they pray for them all the time...
They thought it was a sham, that the nation was really behind DT and if they just stood up for reality everyone would be like, Yeah okay, I am with you. Obviously they were delusional, but it came from seeing only one side. They are not the only ones who believe solely in their own point of view though are they? How many here would drink the Kool-Aid if the person that was passing it out had views that ran perpendicular to their own?
Honestly - you're probably right. I was just being a little naïve and hoping that things would settle down and we'd just get through these last 14 days.
It's probably too late to do the bare minimum of expectations and concede and try to leave with what miniscule amount of dignity you have left. That bridge was burnt.
I mean, yeah, basically this.
It was just pointed out that more people have now died due to the events of the attack at the capitol than died in Benghazi.
Oh - and 4000 people died yesterday of COVID.
Trump will go down as the worst president in US history. He's shockingly going to displace Buchannan and Pierce.
On a semantic point coups usually involve military forces trying to impose new regimes rather than efforts to prevent the transition of power, so this seems more like a case of sedition. Though there are surely some more idiots out there who are planning coups.
The ready presence of guns in American public life is, in my opinion, going to have an increasingly corrosive effect going forward. Not only do they provide actual power, they also give an illusion of power. It would take very little for a much greater number of people to die in this kind of incident.
I suppose it depends what you consider meaningful. Points I would consider to be so:
- though both protests took place at government buildings, only one was aimed at the occupants of that building. I agree that both were aimed at influencing decisions, but only one was using physical coercion as the means of influence.
- there was no violence against either people or property used at the Hart Senate offices. That's not just based on the video evidence you linked - there were multiple arrests of protestors and 302 of them were charged, but all for "crowding, obstructing or incommoding".
There's video of her being shot while trying to climb past the barricade on the chamber doors. It's true that there are armed police behind her and the situation did not appear to be totally out of control at that stage. However, the situation was certainly volatile and it's not clear how good an assessment of that the police officer inside the chamber would have been able to make. I also don't know who else was in the chamber at that point. If Congressmen were still there that would be an extra reason for that policemen to be worried.
He read from a teleprompter.
It's not what he really wants to say. But hey at least he read from the teleprompter instead of saying some ugly boasting lying crap that he instinctively wanted to say.
So the bar is so low it's on the floor and he stepped over it. Cue the pundits probably saying "and today is the day that Donald Trump became President" and other praise for reading from a teleprompter and not being his usual asshole self
But yeah his statement is worthless. He would say something different as soon as he thinks he can get away with it. He's literally been pushing for this coup for months now since he lost the election.
I apologize for making those comments. I won't bother excusing them or trying to minimize or explain them away; I don't believe in that. I take full responsibility for my words, and I'm sorry. I don't want to send anyone the message that they're not welcome here--*or* that anyone is allowed to bully other people or propagate negative stereotypes.
This community has always been one of the kindest and most respectful places I've been. But it only stays that way as long as we hold ourselves to high standards. I need to do the same.
You folks have been kind to me. I'm sorry for breaking that pattern of respect.
Cheers,
Chris
We're now reopening the thread and hope that the behaviour of its participants will improve. The previous several pages of this discussion are full of stereotyping and other rule-breaking behaviour, and that is not what we want to encourage. Please re-read the thread rules before continuing:
Rule 1: No Flaming, Personal Attacks, or Disrespectful Behavior
Rule 2: No Trolling, Baiting, or Needling
Rule 3: No Bigotry or Stereotyping
Rule 4: No Spamming
Rule 5: Keep Things Substantive
Rule 6: Be Clear
Rule 7: Report Rulebreaking Posts to a Moderator--Not the Whole World
Check out the details in the OP.
If the situation where the participants are mass breaking the rules will be repeated once more in this thread, we'll have to close it permanently.