If the mods are still working with this new release and there are some major improvments that cant be done by modding communitys than i am really happy and everything is fine. Its time to let the cat out of its bag,...just to clear things up, cause what we know now is way too little for the shortly upcoming release Summer 2012.
@Tanthalas Yeah, I'm assuming that they'll be rolling out news within a week or so, but there are just so many new members and members joining the forum daily, I hate that the first thing that they see is a list of things that can't be done, I feel like a list of the things that are being done would really keep people from being disappointed by this. Like I said, if there's any interest I'd be glad to make a comprehensive list of things that are being done based strictly on things that Trent has said here and on Twitter, it wouldn't need to be official or anything but if it could be pinned right after this thread, it might help out a bit. I could easily have it up sometime within the next day (possibly less)... and then AndreaColombo's can just replace mine after the news comes out and he compiles it.
@AndreaColombo has the list mostly done already, the reason we're waiting for the news is to be sure that what gets posted is actually accurate. I don't want to "Announcement" something (which makes the list look official) and then have to go "Oh yeah, you know that thing I announced some days ago? Yeah, turned out I made some mistakes in it, sorry"
I see your point, but I think that once the news gets rolling people will be coming to check the forums again.
Jay, thanks for enlightening me. I tend to sort of skim the forum while working on other things, and I don't always read as closely as I should.
So that is excellent news! Given that we can already play the series with the BG2 engine via Tutu, I'm relieved to hear that BG/BG2:EE will do this. Although, I guess my emphasis is still for BeamDog/Overhaul to support the custom mod community, regardless.
I'm also very eager to see what comes down the pike by way of DLC. Hopefully we'll see some excellent new NPCs/sidequests/areas. It is exciting.
It's all good. I'll most certainly support it all to help make BG3 a reality.
It was said that altering the text of already existing characters couldn't be done and thus romances with them wasn't possible. However is that entirely the case?
"Beamdog / Overhaul also face contractual limitations regarding the addition of new content to the existing games. They can build new content as "expansions", but they cannot add to the core content in the main title. This limitation is due to the contracts for the original source content and limit the devs from adding new conversation for existing characters to the main game. Hence, adding banters, inerjections and romances to the original cast of characters is unfortunately not feasible. They will interact with new NPCs and react to new situations and areas, but that's about it."
Would it not be possible then to alter the way you do the romance entirely? Instead of making it something that completely follows the characters around wherever they go, couldn't you make it more of a quest thing? Upon arriving in so and so area, couldn't you have a quest where you have to help miscellaneous character and in this quest they start to fall in love with you? Perhaps have it that the romances only occur in the newer regions of the map or something, like in a new specific town of significance to this npc? Like the place where they had their first kiss? Or maybe even a sacred pixie grove and magic love, be creative! Just throwing that out there. That and you could have banters for the new regions too, could you not?
And if there is going to be a new NPC, couldn't you have it perhaps be a character that you could romance? It would still be a vast improvement to have a second option for the females other than just Anomen. Don't get me wrong, he's not that bad a guy, it's just a shame to be so limited in options. Call me a hopeless romantic, but the romances have always been a big deal for me with these games, as they are usually quite an appeal for me.
What @AndreaColombo did was right and the timing was quite right too. Indeed, that list arrived too late, rather than too soon. In fact, people have been requesting and discussing features earlier which we now know can not be implemented.
@Salk - I agree with you. Ever since BG:EE was announced, I have been following its every development via Twitter, the Beamdog official forum, and Reddit. Whenever a limitation was announced, I automatically took for granted that every other user interested in BG:EE would know it and adjust their wish list accordingly. Then this forum was created, and I found myself posting "This cannot be done because blah blah blah" for several times. That's when I realized most people probably didn't know about the limitations, and something needed to be done about it.
"1. Altering the dialog of the old joinable characters
-We can't do this
I know its sounds bad if i keep repeating myself, but i go through the list 1 by 1 now and maybe someone has an answer for it. The BG1 NPC Project shows clearly that expanding new dialog IS possible. It is. Its a fact.
2. Altering the dialog of encounterable npc's in the campaign, including minor ones
-small scale text only changes are possible.
Same goes for this one. You can alter them in any way you want even if the text and options are 1000 pages long, it doesent matter.
3. Adding new encounters to the old maps
-possible
Why possible? It is a fact that it can be done. There are hundreds of modifications that proof that fact.
4. Relocating encounters on the old maps
-possible, but at risk of introducing bugs
Adding new encounters and relocating them is for a programer almost the same. The BG1 NPC Project has the option, that you encounter commerades on old or on new places, its your choice. The new ones make more sense, thats why. To run into bugs has nothing to do if you can do it or not. Its a job of a programmer to locate them and get a fix for it, simple as that.
5. Retuning difficulty of old encounters, at the level of content rather than engine
-possible, again content tweaking risks adding bugs.
As i already mentioned, to retune the difficulty is a more difficult matter for any Mod. The only chance to make it more difficult is to make more monsters, more spells available ( for monsters) or get them more lifepoints...whatsoever. Beamdog has now the chance to reset the AI to make life more difficult for our heros, that would be a change that would make sense.
6. Adding/removing/moving gear in old encounters/npcs/containers.
-Again, possible, but adding risks adding bugs.
Still, bugs are normal, its about to fix them if the pop up, not to avoid the possiblity cause you fear bugs...
-> i know we still have to wait till the game comes out and then judge, but this things that are already denied are not understandable... everything in that list can be done, cause it has been done already.
"1. Altering the dialog of the old joinable characters
-We can't do this
I know its sounds bad if i keep repeating myself, but i go through the list 1 by 1 now and maybe someone has an answer for it. The BG1 NPC Project shows clearly that expanding new dialog IS possible. It is. Its a fact.
2. Altering the dialog of encounterable npc's in the campaign, including minor ones
-small scale text only changes are possible.
Same goes for this one. You can alter them in any way you want even if the text and options are 1000 pages long, it doesent matter.
3. Adding new encounters to the old maps
-possible
Why possible? It is a fact that it can be done. There are hundreds of modifications that proof that fact.
@SaithMasu if I understand you right, I think by saying "not possible" they mean not possible due to a contract limitation and not on the practical side. the list that you presented is under the title "2. Contractual limitations. "
Im wondering / worried about the part regarding the Origional Art being lost. Does that mean it wont look like the origional ? Can we have a screen ? As id like to see how close you are getting it to the origional
It'll look like the original. The problem with the original art assets being lost is that they aren't available to be re-rendered for BGEE. So its not so easy to improve the quality of the original art.
@SaithMasu: What @mch202 said is basically it, there are some contractual obligations we have to observe. Technically anything is possible, but there's the question of time and money that comes into it. Furthermore...
This is kind of a strange line-toeing situation, so, hear me out: There's an important distinction to be made here between changing content and adding content. Changing what's already there is not necessarily the best course of action (there are exceptions to this, of course!). Generally, things like difficulty and area placement and the NPC project stuff you keep referring to are things that fall into the category that we want to avoid changing for a few reasons - one of which was already mentioned (contractual stuff). There's more to it as well, though - this game has a community like few others I've ever seen, and we don't want to mess up the Baldur's Gate you all know and love - instead we want to try and bring that experience to new players in much the same way that you all first experienced it, with some enhancements to make that original experience even better.
This is why we're working really hard and closely with many mod creators to not only make the game easier to mod, but maintain compatibility with work these fine people have done to make these great additions to the game for the community. If you want to play the game with a mod that changes the experience in a way that's favourable for you, that's awesome! However, that should be the individual player's choice to do so, and not something that we foist on everyone without very, very careful consideration of what we're doing and why we're doing it.
@Nathan Ok thank you for clearly answering my question. I Have to say that i understand the fact, that there is a thin line between adding too much Stuff at once to the Original Game and adding to less. Mods are great, they can alter the Game Experience in so many ways, nethertheless other people would prefer a different set of Modifications and so your right with everybodys individual choice of Mods. So your goal is to keep the Lore true, like we all experienced the Game our first time and add some Improvements that make sense without the feeling to overload it. Ok i can life with that.
@Mornmagor Thank you for that information, the 1PP Mod is a really good one, good to have Erephine on board.
It basically replaced the bg2 paper dolls with the bg1 versions, also including race specific tweaks. So if you like the artwork from the original game more, this is very good news.
It also fixed some things with the actual in game avatars, like adding more armor for some females, fixing some missing pixels on certain animations etc.
By more armor i mean for example, chaimail for females was a miniskirt, well it adds leg armor too.
The interesting part was that Trent was actually answering to a guy that asked, what will fighters look like in BG:EE, like BG2 or BG1? I guess Trent's answer was about female ones since the males i think have some minor fixes, and not to plate armor. At least i can't remember something else, unless they fix something themselves, which i don't know about.
Comments
Its time to let the cat out of its bag,...just to clear things up, cause what we know now is way too little for the shortly upcoming release Summer 2012.
Can I say soon for and update on #bgee? Or have we overused that too much ;-) We hate the quiet as much as you. #thisquietcrapendssoon
AndreaColombo is just waiting for that news update.
@AndreaColombo has the list mostly done already, the reason we're waiting for the news is to be sure that what gets posted is actually accurate. I don't want to "Announcement" something (which makes the list look official) and then have to go "Oh yeah, you know that thing I announced some days ago? Yeah, turned out I made some mistakes in it, sorry"
I see your point, but I think that once the news gets rolling people will be coming to check the forums again.
So that is excellent news! Given that we can already play the series with the BG2 engine via Tutu, I'm relieved to hear that BG/BG2:EE will do this. Although, I guess my emphasis is still for BeamDog/Overhaul to support the custom mod community, regardless.
I'm also very eager to see what comes down the pike by way of DLC. Hopefully we'll see some excellent new NPCs/sidequests/areas. It is exciting.
It's all good. I'll most certainly support it all to help make BG3 a reality.
"Beamdog / Overhaul also face contractual limitations regarding the addition of new content to the existing games. They can build new content as "expansions", but they cannot add to the core content in the main title. This limitation is due to the contracts for the original source content and limit the devs from adding new conversation for existing characters to the main game. Hence, adding banters, inerjections and romances to the original cast of characters is unfortunately not feasible. They will interact with new NPCs and react to new situations and areas, but that's about it."
Would it not be possible then to alter the way you do the romance entirely? Instead of making it something that completely follows the characters around wherever they go, couldn't you make it more of a quest thing? Upon arriving in so and so area, couldn't you have a quest where you have to help miscellaneous character and in this quest they start to fall in love with you? Perhaps have it that the romances only occur in the newer regions of the map or something, like in a new specific town of significance to this npc? Like the place where they had their first kiss? Or maybe even a sacred pixie grove and magic love, be creative! Just throwing that out there. That and you could have banters for the new regions too, could you not?
And if there is going to be a new NPC, couldn't you have it perhaps be a character that you could romance? It would still be a vast improvement to have a second option for the females other than just Anomen. Don't get me wrong, he's not that bad a guy, it's just a shame to be so limited in options. Call me a hopeless romantic, but the romances have always been a big deal for me with these games, as they are usually quite an appeal for me.
-We can't do this
I know its sounds bad if i keep repeating myself, but i go through the list 1 by 1 now and maybe someone has an answer for it.
The BG1 NPC Project shows clearly that expanding new dialog IS possible. It is. Its a fact.
Proof: http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg1npc/index.php
2. Altering the dialog of encounterable npc's in the campaign, including minor ones
-small scale text only changes are possible.
Same goes for this one. You can alter them in any way you want even if the text and options are 1000 pages long, it doesent matter.
3. Adding new encounters to the old maps
-possible
Why possible? It is a fact that it can be done. There are hundreds of modifications that proof that fact.
4. Relocating encounters on the old maps
-possible, but at risk of introducing bugs
Adding new encounters and relocating them is for a programer almost the same.
The BG1 NPC Project has the option, that you encounter commerades on old or on new places, its your choice. The new ones make more sense, thats why.
To run into bugs has nothing to do if you can do it or not. Its a job of a programmer to locate them and get a fix for it, simple as that.
5. Retuning difficulty of old encounters, at the level of content rather than engine
-possible, again content tweaking risks adding bugs.
As i already mentioned, to retune the difficulty is a more difficult matter for any Mod.
The only chance to make it more difficult is to make more monsters, more spells available ( for monsters) or get them more lifepoints...whatsoever.
Beamdog has now the chance to reset the AI to make life more difficult for our heros, that would be a change that would make sense.
Proof:
http://www.gibberlings3.net/bgqe/
http://www.gibberlings3.net/scsii/
6. Adding/removing/moving gear in old encounters/npcs/containers.
-Again, possible, but adding risks adding bugs.
Still, bugs are normal, its about to fix them if the pop up, not to avoid the possiblity cause you fear bugs...
-> i know we still have to wait till the game comes out and then judge, but this things that are already denied are not understandable... everything in that list can be done, cause it has been done already.
@SaithMasu if I understand you right, I think by saying "not possible" they mean not possible due to a contract limitation and not on the practical side. the list that you presented is under the title "2. Contractual limitations.
"
It'll look like the original. The problem with the original art assets being lost is that they aren't available to be re-rendered for BGEE. So its not so easy to improve the quality of the original art.
This is kind of a strange line-toeing situation, so, hear me out: There's an important distinction to be made here between changing content and adding content. Changing what's already there is not necessarily the best course of action (there are exceptions to this, of course!). Generally, things like difficulty and area placement and the NPC project stuff you keep referring to are things that fall into the category that we want to avoid changing for a few reasons - one of which was already mentioned (contractual stuff). There's more to it as well, though - this game has a community like few others I've ever seen, and we don't want to mess up the Baldur's Gate you all know and love - instead we want to try and bring that experience to new players in much the same way that you all first experienced it, with some enhancements to make that original experience even better.
This is why we're working really hard and closely with many mod creators to not only make the game easier to mod, but maintain compatibility with work these fine people have done to make these great additions to the game for the community. If you want to play the game with a mod that changes the experience in a way that's favourable for you, that's awesome! However, that should be the individual player's choice to do so, and not something that we foist on everyone without very, very careful consideration of what we're doing and why we're doing it.
That make more sense for you?
From Trent's Twitter :
Trent Oster @TrentOster
@Solivagant Erephine has agreed to include the 1PP work into #bgee We're just trying to make it play nice with our setup.
Ok thank you for clearly answering my question.
I Have to say that i understand the fact, that there is a thin line between adding too much Stuff at once to the Original Game and adding to less.
Mods are great, they can alter the Game Experience in so many ways, nethertheless other people would prefer a different set of Modifications and so your right with everybodys individual choice of Mods.
So your goal is to keep the Lore true, like we all experienced the Game our first time and add some Improvements that make sense without the feeling to overload it.
Ok i can life with that.
@Mornmagor
Thank you for that information, the 1PP Mod is a really good one, good to have Erephine on board.
By more armor i mean for example, chaimail for females was a miniskirt, well it adds leg armor too.
The interesting part was that Trent was actually answering to a guy that asked, what will fighters look like in BG:EE, like BG2 or BG1? I guess Trent's answer was about female ones since the males i think have some minor fixes, and not to plate armor. At least i can't remember something else, unless they fix something themselves, which i don't know about.