@smeagolheart very good point I hadn't looked at it like that before, now it seems so obvious, although the dual class abuse was always a concern i wanted to see how it would pan out, the dr will be heavily nerfed in the next version (likely 2 per cent every three levels and the 15 per cent initial bonus removed completely), or if you have any ideas then please let me know.
Those with missing strings got it sorted by the look of things? If not then let me know.
Well I wouldn't necessarily remove it completely but removing it from L1 and spreading it out is probably a good thing. I would suggest not letting it exceed the barbarian's unless that is your express intent with the kit.
I haven't found solid numbers but Defender of Easthaven and Armor of Faith are two sources of DR that the Stalwart could also benefit from (if dualed to Cleric I guess)
The Stalwart does have one major deficiency vs. the barbarian in the lack of rage and immunities that come along with that so there is that. It is something that brings something different to the table other than the berserker and barbarian.
@smeagolheart i've had a look at this and tried to make it much less dual-class abusable (especially in BG:EE, more difficult to stop in BG2) and much more tempting to stay with the class, this is what i'm thinking now:
Advantages: - Gains a +1 bonus to all saves at levels 1 and 15. - Gains a +1 bonus to AC at levels 1, 7, 13 and 19. - Gains 2% Crushing, Piercing, Slashing, Missile and Magic Damage resistance every 3 levels. - Gains a +2 Bonus to HP at 1st level, and an additional 1hp each level thereafter.
Disadvantages: - Can only use 1-Handed weapons with any skill, and can only achieve specialisation in these weapons.
Hopefully that should be a bit more balanced, having looked through the class kits the bonuses seem about on par with a swashbuckler or kensai at the same level, except the stalwart gets no to hit or damage bonuses in return for his improved survivability.
@smeagolheart Yeah i wanted to differentiate it more from the barbarian, obviously if he is taking damage in the heat of battle some of that will be magical, however even at level 40 the max resist he can get is 28%, so it never makes him too powerful, and his physical resists are always much lower than the barbs.
I might remove the HP bonus yet, i don't know, obviously extra HP is something special to the barb with his d12, but then again it seems like someone like the stalwart should be able to soak up more raw damage than anyone else.
That was just a first idea, not set in stone, will think about it some more tomorrow.
I don't really see a need for the Stalwart to have magic resistance. The idea of the kit should be to soak up physical damage. If one wants a kit for dealing specifically with magic-users, one should go for the Wizard Slayer (well, a modified Wizard Slayer since the original one really isn't very fun to play with all its restrictions).
So I would do it like this:
Advantages: - Gains a +1 bonus to all saves at levels 1 and 15. - Gains a +1 bonus to AC at levels 1, 7, 13 and 19. - Gains 2% Crushing, Piercing, Slashing, and Missile Damage resistance every 3 levels. - Gains a +2 Bonus to HP at 1st level, and an additional 1hp each level thereafter.
Disadvantages: - Can only use 1-Handed weapons with any skill, and can only achieve specialisation in these weapons.
One alternative to differentiate it from the Barbarian would be removing the HP-boost and raise the resistance boost to 3% every 3 levels.
Also, and this might just be me, but I feel that the name Stalwart brings the thoughts abit too much to the adjective form of the word. A more appropriate name would be Guardian.
@Niklaswb all interesting points, I'm still considering the best way forward with this kit,all feedback is helpful though. Fair point about the wizard slayer, may be worth having a look at improving that kit to make it a bit more appealing. Will keep people updated.
@neoesprit@kamigorochi i will definitely be adding more kits as time goes on, any ideas or requests are welcome, although I can't guarantee I will be able to do them all.
I have always loved the Holy Liberator from Complete Divine, although I thought the old released kit was nice it had so much more to offer than just the Subversion skill. Celestial Companion, come back to meeeeeh. (The Spirit Animals from the Druid kit would make a perfect base, if you found the right balance so it wasn't Hackmaster +12).
"The holy liberator is a holy warrior, a distant cousin of the paladin, who is dedicated to overthrowing tyranny wherever it may be found. These champions of freedom and equality are strong-willed, independent-minded, and virtuous. They particularly direct their efforts against lawful evil societies (dictatorships or plutocracies), slaveholders and slave traders, and powerful, corrupt governments, but they also recognize the possibility for tyranny even in a state of anarchy (where strong individuals may impose their will on people weaker than they).
I'm having a blast with this mod, just seeing what the different classes can do. I do have a question about Tiax, does this mod give him a multi class with a kit? Or does it remove the multiclass and make him pureclass cleric?
Also, have you thought about adding bard kits as well? I know the bard can be a bit difficult to impliment with new ideas... but perhaps a Bard that gives more benefit to him as a spellcaster could be awesome, or a bard that is more adept at ranged attacks as opposed to melee attacks could be starting points for a new bard kit or two.
Also, have you thought about adding bard kits as well? I know the bard can be a bit difficult to impliment with new ideas... but perhaps a Bard that gives more benefit to him as a spellcaster could be awesome, or a bard that is more adept at ranged attacks as opposed to melee attacks could be starting points for a new bard kit or two.
We discussed it briefly but Requiem and I are not too familiar with Bards. I'll try to write something and submit it to Requiem but it's not on my priority list atm. If you have ideas, don't hesitate to share them here =D
If you want to make the Wizard Slayer more worth it, you could always edit it to be 2% magic resistance per level rather than 1%... With the standard ToSC XP cap a fighter will reach level 8, that would be 16% resistance which might actually show rather than 8%.
@Kaltzor In the next release there will be an option to install an improved wizard slayer, I think the fact a monk gets more Mr and can use rings, gloves, boots, potions etc is crazy, the wizard slayer will be getting much better at his job, I will post some ideas tonight. at the moment he has worse penalties than the Kensai and none of the benefits, expect buffs to damage vs mages, Mr, saves vs spells and the extension of his on hit ability to ranged attacks.
@Xavioria With regards to bards @kamigoroshi has been giving me some very interesting ideas and bard kits will definitely be coming in the future
Tiax remains dual classed, his cleric kit will become cyric though.
In terms of bards, anything different or interesting would be welcome, because it is a class I want to delve more into, as it is the ONLY class I haven't really used and one I think I would enjoy.
In terms of the Wizard slayer, there have been a few mods that have aimed to correct that particular class to something that is more usable. One option I had seen and used was the ability to wear certain magic items as long as it gives some type of protection from mages, such as rings of protection and amulet of spell warding. Just a suggestion
Also, perhaps the beast master could be fiddled with as well? Not being able to use metal weapons or armor is too big of a downside for being able to summon a few animals... but that's just my two cents.
Just a few... meandering thoughts of mine, feel free to disregard at your leisure there are many things about game balance and modding that I probably just don't understand...
@Xavioria the beast master seems an even more obvious candidate for tweaking than the wizard slayer and will be getting a buff too at some point, I'm thinking some kind of animal companion that levels along side him, but its still early days yet.
Hopefully I should be releasing a new version this weekend which addresses the stalwart balance issue, offers a new bard kit and an updated wizard slayer kit. Maybe also a new fighter kit and an upgraded beast master kit although those I can't guarantee for this weekend.
the fact that you are getting it done this weekend makes many quite happy I'm sure. Updates are always a nice thing, even if it isn't the thing everyone was particularly waiting for. All I can say is that I've been using your kit pack here and there and I'm liking what I'm using. You can't rush perfection, so it would be foolish for anyone to rush you in this
It's fantastic work, and I thank you for the mod you've created
Conceptually, the Wizard Slayer is my favorite kit in the vanilla game. I even completed BG2 with it once (no dual-speccing, just a pure wizard slayer mind you), just so I could say that it can be done. The problem is that you kind of feel severely nerfed compared to your party members. Not being able to use most magic items just stinks.
I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing what you will be doing with the kit. A fairly high starting magic resistance at lvl 1 and allowing some magic items would be a good place to start. Doesn't really make sense that they can use armors and weapons that give + to damage or AC, but not rings, amulets, belts etc.
@niklaswb for now i've not really gone down the route of allowing more items, although I would consider maybe allowing rings and am keen to allow them to drink all potions, here is the class as it stands now:
WIZARD SLAYER: This warrior has been specially trained by their sect to excel in hunting and combating spellcasters of all kinds, particularly arcane magic users. Both their resilience to magical attack and their deadliness against arcane opponents are considerably increased over the standard warrior, however their intense dislike of magic means they use only the bare minimum of enchanted items.
Advantages:
- +3 to hit and damage against mages. before there was no damage bonus - Each successful melee or ranged hit bestows a 10% cumulative chance of spell failure on the target. before it was only melee hits - Gains 3% Magic Resistance per level up to level 10, and 4% per level thereafter. before it was a pitiful 1% per level - +1 to save vs. spells at levels 1, 6, 11 and 16. before they got no bonuses to saves
Disadvantages:
- May not use any magic items apart from weapons, armor, helmets and potions. before they could only use healing potions
@Requiem: The Wizard Slayer kit in AD&D has one particularly interesting ability: to harm magical creatures with mundane weapons.
Attack Magical Creatures: A Wizard Slayer can strike at creatures normally immune to non-magical attacks. At 4th level, he can make attacks against creatures that normally can only be hit with a +1 or better weapon. At 6th level, he can attack creatures requiring a +2 weapon. At 8th level, he can attack creatures requiring a +3 weapon. At 10th level, he can attack creatures requiring a +4 weapon, and at 12th level he can attack +5 weapon creatures. This ability does not give the Wizard Slayer any special combat bonuses; he makes normal attack and damage rolls against these creatures.
Would something like this be doable in BG:EE? Just an idea.
@Kamigoroshi, that could be a thought, except that if wizard slayers can already use magical weapons, then that particular ability becomes basically useless, unless if you encounter magical creatures early in the game setting (which you don't).
That would be awesome if they weren't allowed magical weapons, however...
I've been reading a couple of older threads about the Wizard Slayer (both on this forum and on other forums), and I've seen one suggestion that I really like. What if you gave the Wizard Slayer the ability to use magic items that are part of the 'armor ensamble'? Meaning: Armor, Helmet, Boots, Gloves/gauntlets and Belt, but not Rings, Necklaces and Cloaks?
This would at least negate some of the restrictions that the Wizard Slayer gets from not being able to use magic items, but also keeps with the role-playing essence of the class. Like, the Wizard Slayer uses all armor and pure 'functional' equipment to get the job done, but enhanced trinkets, jewelry and magic cloth is a big no-no.
I think that could actually be a good middle ground, combined with the new advantages you posted Requiem. The wizard slayer becomes a viable option to the vanilla fighter and the other fighter kits, but loosing out on cloaks, rings and necklaces makes it so that he doesn't become overpowered.
@niklaswb currently they can wear weapons, body armour, helmets and boots, and drink magical potions, hopefully this should even them out but if it doesn't I am open to further tweaks. The new version is now available so give it a go.
@kaltzor i didn't realise that until you posted it, thanks for the info.
@kamigoroshi@xavioria I'm going to look into if this is possible, at the moment i'm not sure but it would be a pretty cool feature.
Hey is it possible to break out the overwrite original classes component you have to that it asks about it original kit? I like the Lathander special ability but could do without the other 2 default kits.
Trying to install the newest version, the new Flagellant kit for Bard gives an error "Cannot set column-wise because there are 26 lines in 25STWEAP.2DA but I was only given 23 things to append"
ERROR: Failure("cannot set column-wise to 25STWEAP.2DA")
@kaltzor delete the 25stweap.2da in your override folder then try again (this is a known bug from an error i made a while ago, I posted the fix on the front page).
@Kaltzor: As you probably already know, any new patches will 'purge' the existing dialogue file, as well as various modifications within the override folder. It's recommended to first uninstall all your mods before patching and then to re-install them when you're done. Simply deleting the override folder also works and is less time consuming as well.
I updated to the newest version just a minute ago. I can assure you that after re-installing the mod I haven't run into any kinds of missing dialogue strings or similar text bugs.
Trying around different things, I got to work correctly with a re-install of the game as even by uninstalling the mod it still listed the new kits as options... named after dialogues.
Comments
I haven't found solid numbers but Defender of Easthaven and Armor of Faith are two sources of DR that the Stalwart could also benefit from (if dualed to Cleric I guess)
The Stalwart does have one major deficiency vs. the barbarian in the lack of rage and immunities that come along with that so there is that. It is something that brings something different to the table other than the berserker and barbarian.
Advantages:
- Gains a +1 bonus to all saves at levels 1 and 15.
- Gains a +1 bonus to AC at levels 1, 7, 13 and 19.
- Gains 2% Crushing, Piercing, Slashing, Missile and Magic Damage resistance every 3 levels.
- Gains a +2 Bonus to HP at 1st level, and an additional 1hp each level thereafter.
Disadvantages:
- Can only use 1-Handed weapons with any skill, and can only achieve specialisation in these weapons.
Hopefully that should be a bit more balanced, having looked through the class kits the bonuses seem about on par with a swashbuckler or kensai at the same level, except the stalwart gets no to hit or damage bonuses in return for his improved survivability.
I might remove the HP bonus yet, i don't know, obviously extra HP is something special to the barb with his d12, but then again it seems like someone like the stalwart should be able to soak up more raw damage than anyone else.
That was just a first idea, not set in stone, will think about it some more tomorrow.
So I would do it like this:
Advantages:
- Gains a +1 bonus to all saves at levels 1 and 15.
- Gains a +1 bonus to AC at levels 1, 7, 13 and 19.
- Gains 2% Crushing, Piercing, Slashing, and Missile Damage resistance every 3 levels.
- Gains a +2 Bonus to HP at 1st level, and an additional 1hp each level thereafter.
Disadvantages:
- Can only use 1-Handed weapons with any skill, and can only achieve specialisation in these weapons.
One alternative to differentiate it from the Barbarian would be removing the HP-boost and raise the resistance boost to 3% every 3 levels.
Also, and this might just be me, but I feel that the name Stalwart brings the thoughts abit too much to the adjective form of the word. A more appropriate name would be Guardian.
"The holy liberator is a holy warrior, a distant cousin of the paladin, who is dedicated to overthrowing tyranny wherever it may be found. These champions of freedom and equality are strong-willed, independent-minded, and virtuous. They particularly direct their efforts against lawful evil societies (dictatorships or plutocracies), slaveholders and slave traders, and powerful, corrupt governments, but they also recognize the possibility for tyranny even in a state of anarchy (where strong individuals may impose their will on people weaker than they).
Requires: Chaotic Good "
Also, have you thought about adding bard kits as well? I know the bard can be a bit difficult to impliment with new ideas... but perhaps a Bard that gives more benefit to him as a spellcaster could be awesome, or a bard that is more adept at ranged attacks as opposed to melee attacks could be starting points for a new bard kit or two.
@Xavioria With regards to bards @kamigoroshi has been giving me some very interesting ideas and bard kits will definitely be coming in the future
Tiax remains dual classed, his cleric kit will become cyric though.
In terms of the Wizard slayer, there have been a few mods that have aimed to correct that particular class to something that is more usable. One option I had seen and used was the ability to wear certain magic items as long as it gives some type of protection from mages, such as rings of protection and amulet of spell warding. Just a suggestion
Also, perhaps the beast master could be fiddled with as well? Not being able to use metal weapons or armor is too big of a downside for being able to summon a few animals... but that's just my two cents.
Just a few... meandering thoughts of mine, feel free to disregard at your leisure
Hopefully I should be releasing a new version this weekend which addresses the stalwart balance issue, offers a new bard kit and an updated wizard slayer kit. Maybe also a new fighter kit and an upgraded beast master kit although those I can't guarantee for this weekend.
It's fantastic work, and I thank you for the mod you've created
I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing what you will be doing with the kit. A fairly high starting magic resistance at lvl 1 and allowing some magic items would be a good place to start. Doesn't really make sense that they can use armors and weapons that give + to damage or AC, but not rings, amulets, belts etc.
WIZARD SLAYER: This warrior has been specially trained by their sect to excel in hunting and combating spellcasters of all kinds, particularly arcane magic users. Both their resilience to magical attack and their deadliness against arcane opponents are considerably increased over the standard warrior, however their intense dislike of magic means they use only the bare minimum of enchanted items.
Advantages:
- +3 to hit and damage against mages. before there was no damage bonus
- Each successful melee or ranged hit bestows a 10% cumulative chance of spell failure on the target. before it was only melee hits
- Gains 3% Magic Resistance per level up to level 10, and 4% per level thereafter. before it was a pitiful 1% per level
- +1 to save vs. spells at levels 1, 6, 11 and 16. before they got no bonuses to saves
Disadvantages:
- May not use any magic items apart from weapons, armor, helmets and potions. before they could only use healing potions
Attack Magical Creatures: A Wizard Slayer can strike at creatures normally immune to non-magical attacks. At 4th level, he can make attacks against creatures that normally can only be hit with a +1 or better weapon. At 6th level, he can attack creatures requiring a +2 weapon. At 8th level, he can attack creatures requiring a +3 weapon. At 10th level, he can attack creatures requiring a +4 weapon, and at 12th level he can attack +5 weapon creatures. This ability does not give the Wizard Slayer any special combat bonuses; he makes normal attack and damage rolls against these creatures.
Would something like this be doable in BG:EE? Just an idea.
That would be awesome if they weren't allowed magical weapons, however...
Though the ability to whield a +1 or +2 weapon and still hit magical creatures as if it were a +5 weapon at 12th-level remains awesome in my eyes.
Adjatha the drinker working on Demogorgon...
This would at least negate some of the restrictions that the Wizard Slayer gets from not being able to use magic items, but also keeps with the role-playing essence of the class. Like, the Wizard Slayer uses all armor and pure 'functional' equipment to get the job done, but enhanced trinkets, jewelry and magic cloth is a big no-no.
I think that could actually be a good middle ground, combined with the new advantages you posted Requiem. The wizard slayer becomes a viable option to the vanilla fighter and the other fighter kits, but loosing out on cloaks, rings and necklaces makes it so that he doesn't become overpowered.
@kaltzor i didn't realise that until you posted it, thanks for the info.
@kamigoroshi @xavioria I'm going to look into if this is possible, at the moment i'm not sure but it would be a pretty cool feature.
Hey is it possible to break out the overwrite original classes component you have to that it asks about it original kit? I like the Lathander special ability but could do without the other 2 default kits.
ERROR: Failure("cannot set column-wise to 25STWEAP.2DA")
Here's the DEBUG file.
I updated to the newest version just a minute ago. I can assure you that after re-installing the mod I haven't run into any kinds of missing dialogue strings or similar text bugs.