Precisely the crux of my argument. Sure, it would be nice if there was consequence for every race you can choose but lets face it, there's a limit to what developers can do - priorities should be set to implementing the deepest content changes first.
Furthermore, expanded universes are tricky, rarely consistent across the board. While I suppose it would be awesome for a Forgotten Realms fan see the crappy life of a surface drow in all of its glory, it seems that either BioWare never could implement it - and Beamdog does have limited power in its hands. So if they can make the Viconia/Player drow experiences consistent with each other, then its A OK with me.
Where have you read this racial traits for drow in 2nd ed. ?
@Akerhon Actually I have scooped it piece by piece from over the internet, so there might be errors. And starting reputation penalty is my own suggestion.
Where have you read this racial traits for drow in 2nd ed. ?
@Akerhon Actually I have scooped it piece by piece from over the internet, so there might be errors. And starting reputation penalty is my own suggestion.
Which may be a pretty good suggestion, I'd say. I don't remember the penalties for having a low reputation, if you're actually attacked or its just the store prices that become a steal, but it does add a whole dynamic of redeeming your name from the stain of drow society in general. Or embrace it with advantage.
Mind you, I'd say that Candlekeep people should react to a medium reputation - because they know you well enough and beginning the game without being able to buy supplies might be a bit too much.
people it's simple, a good drow or an evil drow is something playable on forgotten realms adventures, ok no problem with this, but inside the bhaalspawn history, inside baldur's gate it CAN'T BE PART OF THE ORIGINAL CONTENT.
The changes on the original history to make possible a drow playtrough can't be infused on baldur's gate, that would change the entire environment of the game.
Want examples?
Most of the quest petitioners would not even accept your presence near. A lot of quests would be lost.
Friendly Arm Inn - you would never enter the fort, a unknow drow on the door? The guards would attack 1° and ask questions later.
Beregost - would be killed on the spot.
Naskell - a unknow drow on the middle of the war front of amn and baldur's gate? Killed on spot.
Naskell Mines - "Hi i'm a unknow drow and i heard you have some trouble, can i help?" Need to answer this one?
Baldur's gate - same as the others killed on the spot... bla bla bla, but now think on this, in the end of the game a drow enter on the duke room of BG castle to present proofs that sarevok, the actual city savior is in fact the person that plot the downfall of the city. In fact you would not even get near the castle, the entire city guard would fall on you.
And BG is a game that you play more on the open areas than city areas. On BG2 keep the history line with a Drow would be impossible.
So to make my point: Want a drow playtrough? Wait for the fan mods, put this on the original content will surely corrupt it. I played as drow with the darkest day installed on the past, but knowing that my play was just for fun and with no balance betwen the main char race and the game plot.
I honestly think that sometimes gameplay should take precedence over lore consistency.
They already said that subraces would likely only be added to the game post-release, so I really don't see a reason to be so adamantly against the inclusion of Drow to the game.
I also don't think Drow would be killed on the spot in every city. At least they rarely (if ever) are in many of the novels that I have read.
And that's the difference between consistency within the game and with the expanded universe. As far as Baldur's Gate, the game, is concerned a PC drow need not suffer any more inconveniences than Viconia herself already does. Wether Forgotten Realms lore agrees with how much punishment Viconia lives through is a secondary concern, especially since Viconia already do live through some punishment.
Really, just apply a initial reputation loss for the PC and make so that whenever people are trying to kill Viconia for being a drow, the same happens with the PC should he be nearby. The latter are enough to make sure that the PC is consistent with the game's original content, while the former adds additional consequence for your decision.
@smeagolheart and @Aliteri read the previous posts before say anithing cos i already touch in this point. The viconia repercussion in party on BG is not realistic enough AS I SAID BEFORE. Don't be so desperate to defend your point at the cost of the logic.
Besides viconia stick with main party for the reason of protection and cover anyway, to let a human/elf/drwaf face make the contacts where she goes. She is not the head of the party making the choices or speaking with people, and that is for a good reason. Viconia problems are unbalanced with a surface drow existence and i really hope BG:EE change this and make a hell of pain to any player that want viconia in the party (this would make a more challenge and real adventure).
I already told: In my opinion, want a drow main char? Wait for a fan mod. Put a drow main char as original content is a frist step to destroy the game balance.
Ps: as my previous post if drow main char is allowed i want my beholder main char too XD!
Ps2: i'm not a drow hater, just don't agree with a drow main char, a solafein npc in BG2 would be nice for start (but not equal the weimer mod, i didn't like him on the mod, maybe cos he insisted in try an romance approach on my male main char, but i'm sure other reasons existed too).
The viconia repercussion in party on BG is not realistic enough AS I SAID BEFORE.
I already addressed that point. It is obvious that the single misadventure you have with the Flaming Fist as you meet Viconia for the first time isn't enough to reflect the troubles of being a surface drow - as per the larger lore of the Forgotten Realms. I'd be very happy if either Overhaul or modders could add further complications, such as penalties to Reputation and more problems that you have for carrying Viconia along.
But fist and foremost, a drow player character must be compatible to the problems that you already face for having Viconia with you. That's the difference between the game being consistent with itself (why should those Flaming Fist let you off the hook if they're hunting Viconia for being a drow?) and the game being more consistent with the expanded universe of the setting.
If you do think that being the party's 'leader' should have a larger effect on the party's reputation than being a party member (and I don't, since being the 'leader' and being the party's 'face' isn't the same thing - you can easily treat CHA as a dump stat for Charname and leave Imoen to do the shopping), the original post once more:
A initial penalty to reputation ( ' Starting Reputation: 5 ' ) would go a long way to simulate the mistrust of the drow. If you want people to be friendly towards you, you'll have to work through the drow's tainted fame and suffer through the issues of having a low reputation, at least before you become the saviour of the nashkel mines and the justicer of unlawful evil clerics.
My suggestion of removing the player's ability to leave Viconia to her fate would make consistent with itself.
So far, there's all you really need to be a drow in the Baldur's Gate - though not necessarily in the larger Forgotten Realms, only BG's Realms. Anything further would be more polish, rather nice, perhaps desirable, but not necessarily required. Especially since this is a tried and successful product.
Our wish that there were more problems similar to when you first meet Viconia would make the entire game more consistent with the expanded universe but it would also be new content.
Lastly (and here's a new argument), there's also the idea that story shouldn't dictate the game and that's not necessarily wrong, it just shouldn't be taken to extremes. After all, don't Elves in the Realms take several decades to reach adulthood? If true, then being a drow is the least of elven charname's problems. And there's always going to be more problems like that.
Honestly, when I started to read this thread I was completely pro-dorw, if I can say that. But now... not so sure. The D&D stats being OP is not really a problem I think. Some may disagree, but I think they could be tailored a bit not to make the char too OP.
The lore and the story line though, that is a problem. It order to make it work, which I'm not saying that it would be impossible, the developers would have to make so many alterations, and added lines, different dialogs for the game, that it seems very unlikely they would do it. It would either give a totally different experience than playing with other races, or if they don't make changes and kond of just skip over the fact that there is a drow elves wandering all around faerun, well, that would kinda kill the whole epic RP feeling for which we (or at least me) really loved the BG series!
Still, I wouldn't give up on it. As some people said before me, I also belive that the gameplay should be favoured over lore consistency, and if Viconia can come along us, it is still possible to make a drow main character. And while right now, I have changed my previous opinion on the matter and actually think that they should be left out.
Here are some thoughts on how we could make it work: -Reputation cap: instead of 20, a drow, no matter how good they are, wouldnt be able to reach a rep above 18 (or 16-17, whatever), as the people will never fully trust them -starting rep reduced -at some quest they would have reduced choices, e.g. when encountering Viconia and the Flaming Fist in Amn, the mob would automatically turn against the party.
About the other races and sub-races: half-ogre might work, but orcs, ogres, gnolls, etc. seriously? Would have almost the same problems as with drows. And they really are monsters. I mean I'm not that familiar with many RPG universes, but the ones I know don't really allow monsters as PCs. For me, just of thought os an Ogre bhaalspawn (not to mentions goblin or gnoll) in candlekeep is just ridiculous. Most of the other idea are fine for me (even if we wont have drows, I would really like to choose, between sun elves, moon elves, wood elves and wild elves). Dueregars on the other hand are again, almost like drows, maybe not so badly, but still...
Drow and other more extreme races will have an unremovable enchanted note pinned to their tunic by Gorion which states "Please ignore that I am a (Race), I'm just trying to mind my own business and ascend to godhood."
Well, if BGEE took place in the current timeline of the Realms, an Orc PC could probably work, due to the Many-Arrows kingdom, but it doesn't, so yeah.
I still hope that Overhaul can add the IWD2 sub-races post-release though. I can live with the inconsistencies just to have more stuff to play around with. Hell, they could add Orcs too.
Maybe the problem could simply be solved if they would add all the suggested subraces and races, but for drows and such ther would be a note:
***CHOOSING THIS RACE COULD SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR ROLE-PLAY EXPERIENCE! ONLY CHOOSE IT IF YOU ARE JUST PLAYING FOR FUN AND DON'T CARE FOR THE INCONSISTENCIES!***
It's a good idea. I think that they should add new races such as drow and others because it's a little bit restricted. A lot of people have at least once wanted to play a drow hero like Drizzt with two scimitars Furthermore the abilities you've mentioned are quite reasonable.
Where have you read this racial traits for drow in 2nd ed. ?
@Akerhon Actually I have scooped it piece by piece from over the internet, so there might be errors. And starting reputation penalty is my own suggestion.
Maybe drow is look like an elf for 2ed, just for modifiers to Des and Cos ( if not noble ). I don't like -2 in Str :P
I put some thought into it, and here is, how my drow racial traits would look like:
Modifiers: +1 DEX, +1 INT, +1 CHA, -1 CON
Special abilities: - Infravision - Darkness (once per day): gives the user and his allies +20% hide in shadows, cancels any light based spell (e.g.: False Dawn) that are weaker than Darkness (lvl=charlvl-2) during its duration (duration 1 turn + 1 round/lvl) - Faerie Fire (once per day): cancels any darkness based defense on target, magical or otherwise (hide in shadows, blur, mirror image, reflected image, invisibility). Duration: 2 rounds/lvl - Resistance to charm and sleep (90%) - Magic resistance: +2 to saving throws, 5% immunity - Thieving skill adjustment: +10% move silently, +15% hide in shadows - +1 proficiency in crossbows and long swords
- Reputation: -3 starting reputation, max 18 reputation (as Chaotic Evil, you would start with 5, other Evils wit 6, Neutral with 7, Goods with 8, Lawful Good with 9)) - Blindness to strong and sudden light (general daylight not, since char is expecting it), this includes: False Dawn and Sunray spells, situational strong brightness in dungeons, e.g.: sunstones used in the dungeons at Umar Hills (this last part might be complicated to implement, so could be scrapped) - -1 THAC0 when fighting outside in daylight - Can only choose Evil and Neutral Alignments (I'm not sure about this though)
I based most of this on info found on the internet, and adjusted them to BG racial traits. Compared to a regular elf, the following things are different: +: INT and CHA bonus; Darkness and Faerie Fire; +2 magic saving throws and 5% immunity (gnomes, dwarves and halflings have +1 saving throw for every 3.5 constitution) -: all the negatives adjusted: +1 prof in crossbows instead of bows, thieving racials changed by removing pick pocket 5% bonus and lock picking -5% penalty, and adding +5% to move silently and hide in shadows
As for avaible classes: similar to elves, except they cannot choose Helm or Lathander Cleric Kits, can choose Bard (seriously why can't elves choose to be bards???), Fighter/Cleric and Cleric/Mage. And I'm not so sure about allowing them to be Rangers either...
For simpler implementation: remove racial spells and blindness.
Ok guys read this! Form the manual AD&D Forgotten Realms - Drow of the underdark (by Ed Greenwood):
- Drow Senses - Drow eyes can see heat patterns in air and rock thanks to their 120 range INFRAVISION (not darkvision ^^). Against a dim gray cold stone backdrop, progressively warmer hues show as subtle blue, purple, red, and warm yellow. The warmth comes from hot springs, magma, seeping water, and fissure-breezes. Drow learn to use the shadows of these varying hues for concealment when stalking, in much the same way as a surface creature uses the shadows produced by the sun, moon, and other light sources. Like surface dwellers, drow must learn to read heat-hues; the meanings of various shades and patterns become known to drow only through teaching or experience in the field. Near areas of drow habitation in the Underdark, the varying heat-hues of the natural Underdark are blurred by the higher ambient heat of many gathered, living beings and their activities. Drow cities also sport magical glows, a few actual lights (notably the sharp, foreign-to-most-drow radiances of the candles of studying wizards and important rituals to Lolth), and the far more common continual faerie fire glows that highlight drow sculpture. Drow are proud of the beauty of their designs, and usually outline the most impressive works with this spell. Drow hearing is highly developed. Inthe Underdark, one learns to find water by timing the echoes of dripping or running water, and to detect coming rock shifts or collapses by listening for the natural grating and groaning sounds of unshaped rock. Drow have long, slender, sensitive fingers, and a highly-developed tactile sense. In addition to their silent language of gestures, stances, and expressions, they are able to read subtle, braille-like secret signs left on rock walls, message stones, and other places by fellow drow. The drow sense of smell, however, is not so acute. The all-pervasive smell of the rock and damp air all around, tainted by ever-present mold and fungus spores and the scent of drow and slave bodies, is a strong background. Most drow have been exposed to strong incense and offering- burnings since infancy, which further serves to dull the olfactory sense. Drow still enjoy perfume, incense, and the like, but their smell is only about as acute as that of most humans far less than that of many native inhabitants of the Underdark.
- Personal Magic - All civilized drow receive training in wizardly magic (discussed in the next chapter), both to test their aptitude for casting spells and to train them in the mental concentration necessary for control of their natural spell-like abilities (DM NOTE: SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES FADE WITH TIME ON THE SURFACE WORLD. BY THE TIME A PC IS OF ADVENTURING AGE, THEY WILL HAVE FADED AWAY.) These innate base powers, so-called because all drow are born with them, and with practice can learn to use them without formal tutelage, are the abilities to evoke dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. These powers vary slightly from place to place according to lineage, natural differences between individuals, differences in the prolonged favor of drow deities, and variations in the local intensity of the natural radiation of the Underdark. Drow control over them varies with mental state, sickness, age and training, and other conditions. A dying drow may knowingly pour his or her lifeforce into the exercise of these powers, doubling or even trebling their area of effect, duration, and/or damage, if the DM desires. DM NOTE: CONCENTRATION IS NOT NECESSARY FOR DROW TO CONTROL BASE POWER EFFECTS. In general terms, these powers may all be used only once every 24 hours (144 turns). For example, a drow who levitates may not re-awaken that natural power until 144 full turns have elapsed from the instant levitation ceased. Any natural spell-like power can be used continuously for 1 round per level of the drow, plus a round. It can be ended prematurely by certain hostile magical effects (such as dispel magic), by the will of the drow employing them, or by the undertaking of spellcasting or the use of another base power by the same drow (drow must concentrate to maintain their spell-like powers, and can only use one at a time). The base powers create effects independent of a drows person; once unleashed, they can be moved about by the creating drow (at a base MV of 16) by effort of will. Except as noted in this chapter, all of these effects function as the spells of the same names, detailed in the Players Handbook. The areas of effect of the last two spells increase by 10 square feet, or in a globe, 2 of additional radius (DMs choice of which, according to the situation) per level of the creating drow, above (not including) 4th level. The number of light sources created by the dancing lights effect also increases by one for every two levels of the creator beyond 4th: that is, one additional at 6th, another at 8th, and so on. Range and control also increase by 10/level beyond 4th. A creating drow who has received even rudimentary training can always create an effect of lesser size, range, and efficacy than the maximum possible (e.g. a 5-radius sphere of darkness around a foes head, rather than a 20-radius sphere cloaking the foe and four companions). The darkness cast by the natural power of drow is globe-shaped. Its base size (the maximum usable by drow of 4th level or less) is a sphere of 20 radius. Like the darkness created by a priests spell, it is impervious to both infravision and normal sight. True seeing and the vision of certain creatures (such as extra-planar beings and inherently magical or created creatures such as gargoyles, golems, and homunculi) can penetrate drow darkness. Certain magical devices are also effective against it: for example, a gem of seeing sees through it, noting its presence only as a dark tint over a distinct area, and the pale light property of a gem of brightness dispels it. (Use these references as a guide in judging the results of drow-darkness contacts with other magic.) Drow of above fourth level gain mature powers of levitate, know alignment, and detect magic. Drow priests and priestesses also gain additional spell-like powers (in addition to their spells) through divine favor. These include clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic. At the
- Dark Elven Wizards - The most dangerous of drow, and those most likely to be encountered alone outside of their Underdark communities (as opposed to fighting bands) are wizards. Drow wizards, especially males, are often driven into exile out of fear at the treatment they expect from those of rival Houses, jealous priestesses, and the angered authority of Lolth. Dark elven wizards often become or accompany merchants, dealing with the surface world where their magic serves to protect and disguise them. Their endless need for more magical knowledge and spell components drives them into lots of adventuring, or the frequent hiring of professional explorers. Drow wizards can become quite powerful (see the section which follows). Elsewhere in this sourcebook, the spells and magical items they can craft and/or use are detailed. Some unusual familiars can appear in the company of these folk. Drow wizards favor watchspiders and hunting spiders (both detailed under Spider, Subterranean in this sourcebook) as familiars, but more often must employ snakes, spitting crawlers, pedipalpi, solifugids, and all manner of spiders, instead. The really fortunate ones acquire the companionship of an azmyth. (All of the aforementioned creatures are detailed in the Monsters section of this book.)
- Level Advancement and Exceptional Drow - Drow without exceptional prime requisites (not counting PCs, and noble NPCs) cannot advance beyond certain limits in their experience levels. Drow are considered as elves, as far as level restrictions under Table 7 on page 15 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. The limits as priests and wizards, however, do not apply: drow are limited in advancement as priests only by the will of their gods (who typically end such advancement by destruction or elevation to demigod servant-status around 22nd level), and as wizards only by the availability of new spells to learn, tutors, and magical items or components to study and experiment with. Simply put, DROW WIZARDS HAVE NO LEVEL RESTRICTIONS. Those who have a taste for adventure are effectively unlimited in level advancement; those who are stay-athome- studiers are typically slowed in advancement to a halt between 17th to 19th level due to simple lack of experiences and materials.
although i like the idea of playing the game like a drow i see no point if there will be no consequences for it. people should react to you being their epitome of evil.
Your post sums up my feelings entirely.
As long as BG is within the constraints of the FR mythos, then the game would need to add a permanent reputation handicap for drow characters - a huge one... that can't be bought out. Or a disguise feature. Or a feature that enabled the protagonist to not interact with NPCs via stealth or the like.
I love drow but when taken out of their own cultural ruleset they quickly turn bland. If it was a feature that is going to be done, it really needs to be done properly and with a lot of thought.
After reading the rest of the thread, I thought I'd add a bit more.
In terms of @kamuizin 's thoughts, I have to agree and disagree to some extent. As much as I am obsessed with drow and drow culture, their presence on the surface in FR is shaky at best. Many people take Drizzt to be a justification for their own drow, but even if we were to take Salvatore's word as rule (in fact, he did create many of the details of drow culture it seems) he himself describes how rare a good drow is, and how he will never be accepted, is always treated with hostility, yada yada. Thus, there is a huge obstacle in that.
However, I do agree with @Aliteri in that Baldur's Gate has no restrictions in having to be completely ground to FR, and FR as an expansive universe already acknowledges that people have different interpretations of the world. Now, I like the idea of giving a drow PC the same difficulties that Viccy has, because that is consistent with how the original developers decided to treat drow. Despite this, I have a thought that the developers may have created the dialogue and the considerable lack of difficulties facing Viccy because she isn't the head of the party, so to speak. She's just one of the gang, and finds protection behind a powerful Bhallspawn.
Still, in the case of justifying the dialogue not being changed, why can't the PC do exactly what Viccy did before coming along the party? She kept her hood up. Sure, forcing drow PC's to keep their hood up seems a bit restrictive (only in an RP sense, yet if you're RPing a drow, I think you expected that.) I think what could work here is if something was added to the introduction of the game, nothing longer than a paragraph describing how the PC usually acts based on their race. It could be something that differs for each main and sub, and the drow one could add a little something that essentially states that due to the color of his/her skin, CHARNAME has faced difficulty throughout his/her childhood and has found many a benefit in keeping his/her hood drawn.
Drow godd are extremely rare ... ok, but in this case, in this game your pg is the "child" of Gorion not a common dark elf raised in Menzoberranzan or in other cities of the Underdark
Drow godd are extremely rare ... ok, but in this case, in this game your pg is the "child" of Gorion not a common dark elf raised in Menzoberranzan or in other cities of the Underdark
From what I understand about how Gods function in Forgotten Realms, they no longer possess a race once they ascend to godhood. Although Cyric was a human when he murdered Gods during the Time of Troubles, he is no longer listed as a human in lore. Gods instead have portfolios to describe their entities and have a physical presence via avatars (for example, during the Time of Troubles, Mask's avatar wasn't even a creature, it was the sword Godsbane.)
This is true, although you're less of a child and more of a ward - this is evident enough with having a PC that is anything but human. Thus, being a drow is not really any more a difference than being a dwarf, gnome, or other variety of elf, from that standpoint.
Also, I'd just like to mention that there is already a drow Bhallspawn present in the original content: Sendai.
People who say good drow are rare or an overused trope, so what? And what if I want to make an evil drow. It really shouldn't be any different than making an evil dwarf. The people that %charname% encounters that assume that all drow are evil need education. And it's a good thing %charname% has a party of fellow adventures that can help him explain that while the race of drow are considered evil, not every single individual within that race is evil. Not ALL drow are evil just like not all halflings are good. If a bartender in the tavern sees a halfling will he assume the halfling is not there to murder him or sacrifice him to some evil deity? Well Mr. Lawful Evil Halfling might be there to do just that.
...Friendly Arm Inn - you would never enter the fort, a unknow drow on the door? The guards would attack 1° and ask questions later.
Beregost - would be killed on the spot.
Naskell - a unknow drow on the middle of the war front of amn and baldur's gate? Killed on spot.
Naskell Mines - "Hi i'm a unknow drow and i heard you have some trouble, can i help?" Need to answer this one?
Baldur's gate - same as the others killed on the spot... bla bla bla, but now think on this, in the end of the game a drow enter on the duke room of BG castle to present proofs that sarevok, the actual city savior is in fact the person that plot the downfall of the city. In fact you would not even get near the castle, the entire city guard would fall on you.
(Assuming for a moment that if a drow race was introduced, it would be balanced)
@kamuizin, I think like @Tanthalas said, you're taking too strict an attitude with lore vs. gameplay. The situations you listed are relatively subjective - there's nothing to say that those would be the repercussions of having a drow player character instead of another race. In fact, due to Viconia's inclusion in the game, there's a lot to be said for the opposite case. And yes, I realize you have addressed this as below
Besides viconia stick with main party for the reason of protection and cover anyway, to let a human/elf/drwaf face make the contacts where she goes. She is not the head of the party making the choices or speaking with people, and that is for a good reason. Viconia problems are unbalanced with a surface drow existence and i really hope BG:EE change this and make a hell of pain to any player that want viconia in the party (this would make a more challenge and real adventure).
And I agree with you! There should be more than a single instance of repercussion for having drow above-ground. I think that would definitely add to the richness of the game. But I don't see any reasoning for allowing Viconia in the party but not allowing CHARNAME to be drow.
Now, as for the drow's starting stats being balanced...that's another matter -_-
People who say good drow are rare or an overused trope, so what? And what if I want to make an evil drow. It really shouldn't be any different than making an evil dwarf. The people that %charname% encounters that assume that all drow are evil need education. And it's a good thing %charname% has a party of fellow adventures that can help him explain that while the race of drow are considered evil, not every single individual within that race is evil. Not ALL drow are evil just like not all halflings are good. If a bartender in the tavern sees a halfling will he assume the halfling is not there to murder him or sacrifice him to some evil deity? Well Mr. Lawful Evil Halfling might be there to do just that.
Ever heard of prejudice? Since the vast majority of drow elves are evil murderers, people are scared of them and hate them. It is a FACT per every source book ever published under the D&D franchise that drow elves are feared and loathed in the surface, and mostly attacked on sight regardless of their alignment. You could play a good drow elf and still be attacked on sight by the Flaming Fist. How a drow could possibly be allowed into Suldanessellar and collaborate with surface elves is beyond me, considering how fierce the hatred runs between surface elves and drow elves. There is absolutely no way for Baldur's Gate to let you play as a drow elf and be consistent / make roleplay sense at the same time.
If you say you can live with the inconsistency, that's fine. I'd rather not, but I can just as well choose not to play as a drow elf if they're implemented. But trying to justify drow elves as a viable choice that makes sense for CHARNAME is a vane quest if there ever was one :-)
Comments
Precisely the crux of my argument. Sure, it would be nice if there was consequence for every race you can choose but lets face it, there's a limit to what developers can do - priorities should be set to implementing the deepest content changes first.
Furthermore, expanded universes are tricky, rarely consistent across the board. While I suppose it would be awesome for a Forgotten Realms fan see the crappy life of a surface drow in all of its glory, it seems that either BioWare never could implement it - and Beamdog does have limited power in its hands. So if they can make the Viconia/Player drow experiences consistent with each other, then its A OK with me.
@Tanthalas
And goody drows should suffer for their progressism :P
Which may be a pretty good suggestion, I'd say. I don't remember the penalties for having a low reputation, if you're actually attacked or its just the store prices that become a steal, but it does add a whole dynamic of redeeming your name from the stain of drow society in general. Or embrace it with advantage.
Mind you, I'd say that Candlekeep people should react to a medium reputation - because they know you well enough and beginning the game without being able to buy supplies might be a bit too much.
The changes on the original history to make possible a drow playtrough can't be infused on baldur's gate, that would change the entire environment of the game.
Want examples?
Most of the quest petitioners would not even accept your presence near. A lot of quests would be lost.
Friendly Arm Inn - you would never enter the fort, a unknow drow on the door? The guards would attack 1° and ask questions later.
Beregost - would be killed on the spot.
Naskell - a unknow drow on the middle of the war front of amn and baldur's gate? Killed on spot.
Naskell Mines - "Hi i'm a unknow drow and i heard you have some trouble, can i help?" Need to answer this one?
Baldur's gate - same as the others killed on the spot... bla bla bla, but now think on this, in the end of the game a drow enter on the duke room of BG castle to present proofs that sarevok, the actual city savior is in fact the person that plot the downfall of the city. In fact you would not even get near the castle, the entire city guard would fall on you.
And BG is a game that you play more on the open areas than city areas. On BG2 keep the history line with a Drow would be impossible.
So to make my point: Want a drow playtrough? Wait for the fan mods, put this on the original content will surely corrupt it. I played as drow with the darkest day installed on the past, but knowing that my play was just for fun and with no balance betwen the main char race and the game plot.
They already said that subraces would likely only be added to the game post-release, so I really don't see a reason to be so adamantly against the inclusion of Drow to the game.
I also don't think Drow would be killed on the spot in every city. At least they rarely (if ever) are in many of the novels that I have read.
@smeagolheart
And that's the difference between consistency within the game and with the expanded universe. As far as Baldur's Gate, the game, is concerned a PC drow need not suffer any more inconveniences than Viconia herself already does. Wether Forgotten Realms lore agrees with how much punishment Viconia lives through is a secondary concern, especially since Viconia already do live through some punishment.
Really, just apply a initial reputation loss for the PC and make so that whenever people are trying to kill Viconia for being a drow, the same happens with the PC should he be nearby. The latter are enough to make sure that the PC is consistent with the game's original content, while the former adds additional consequence for your decision.
Besides viconia stick with main party for the reason of protection and cover anyway, to let a human/elf/drwaf face make the contacts where she goes. She is not the head of the party making the choices or speaking with people, and that is for a good reason. Viconia problems are unbalanced with a surface drow existence and i really hope BG:EE change this and make a hell of pain to any player that want viconia in the party (this would make a more challenge and real adventure).
I already told: In my opinion, want a drow main char? Wait for a fan mod. Put a drow main char as original content is a frist step to destroy the game balance.
Ps: as my previous post if drow main char is allowed i want my beholder main char too XD!
Ps2: i'm not a drow hater, just don't agree with a drow main char, a solafein npc in BG2 would be nice for start (but not equal the weimer mod, i didn't like him on the mod, maybe cos he insisted in try an romance approach on my male main char, but i'm sure other reasons existed too).
But fist and foremost, a drow player character must be compatible to the problems that you already face for having Viconia with you. That's the difference between the game being consistent with itself (why should those Flaming Fist let you off the hook if they're hunting Viconia for being a drow?) and the game being more consistent with the expanded universe of the setting.
If you do think that being the party's 'leader' should have a larger effect on the party's reputation than being a party member (and I don't, since being the 'leader' and being the party's 'face' isn't the same thing - you can easily treat CHA as a dump stat for Charname and leave Imoen to do the shopping), the original post once more:
A initial penalty to reputation ( ' Starting Reputation: 5 ' ) would go a long way to simulate the mistrust of the drow. If you want people to be friendly towards you, you'll have to work through the drow's tainted fame and suffer through the issues of having a low reputation, at least before you become the saviour of the nashkel mines and the justicer of unlawful evil clerics.
My suggestion of removing the player's ability to leave Viconia to her fate would make consistent with itself.
So far, there's all you really need to be a drow in the Baldur's Gate - though not necessarily in the larger Forgotten Realms, only BG's Realms. Anything further would be more polish, rather nice, perhaps desirable, but not necessarily required. Especially since this is a tried and successful product.
Our wish that there were more problems similar to when you first meet Viconia would make the entire game more consistent with the expanded universe but it would also be new content.
Lastly (and here's a new argument), there's also the idea that story shouldn't dictate the game and that's not necessarily wrong, it just shouldn't be taken to extremes. After all, don't Elves in the Realms take several decades to reach adulthood? If true, then being a drow is the least of elven charname's problems. And there's always going to be more problems like that.
The D&D stats being OP is not really a problem I think. Some may disagree, but I think they could be tailored a bit not to make the char too OP.
The lore and the story line though, that is a problem. It order to make it work, which I'm not saying that it would be impossible, the developers would have to make so many alterations, and added lines, different dialogs for the game, that it seems very unlikely they would do it. It would either give a totally different experience than playing with other races, or if they don't make changes and kond of just skip over the fact that there is a drow elves wandering all around faerun, well, that would kinda kill the whole epic RP feeling for which we (or at least me) really loved the BG series!
Still, I wouldn't give up on it. As some people said before me, I also belive that the gameplay should be favoured over lore consistency, and if Viconia can come along us, it is still possible to make a drow main character. And while right now, I have changed my previous opinion on the matter and actually think that they should be left out.
Here are some thoughts on how we could make it work:
-Reputation cap: instead of 20, a drow, no matter how good they are, wouldnt be able to reach a rep above 18 (or 16-17, whatever), as the people will never fully trust them
-starting rep reduced
-at some quest they would have reduced choices, e.g. when encountering Viconia and the Flaming Fist in Amn, the mob would automatically turn against the party.
half-ogre might work, but orcs, ogres, gnolls, etc. seriously? Would have almost the same problems as with drows. And they really are monsters. I mean I'm not that familiar with many RPG universes, but the ones I know don't really allow monsters as PCs. For me, just of thought os an Ogre bhaalspawn (not to mentions goblin or gnoll) in candlekeep is just ridiculous.
Most of the other idea are fine for me (even if we wont have drows, I would really like to choose, between sun elves, moon elves, wood elves and wild elves). Dueregars on the other hand are again, almost like drows, maybe not so badly, but still...
I still hope that Overhaul can add the IWD2 sub-races post-release though. I can live with the inconsistencies just to have more stuff to play around with. Hell, they could add Orcs too.
***CHOOSING THIS RACE COULD SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR ROLE-PLAY EXPERIENCE! ONLY CHOOSE IT IF YOU ARE JUST PLAYING FOR FUN AND DON'T CARE FOR THE INCONSISTENCIES!***
A lot of people have at least once wanted to play a drow hero like Drizzt with two scimitars
Furthermore the abilities you've mentioned are quite reasonable.
Modifiers:
+1 DEX, +1 INT, +1 CHA, -1 CON
Special abilities:
- Infravision
- Darkness (once per day): gives the user and his allies +20% hide in shadows, cancels any light based spell (e.g.: False Dawn) that are weaker than Darkness (lvl=charlvl-2) during its duration (duration 1 turn + 1 round/lvl)
- Faerie Fire (once per day): cancels any darkness based defense on target, magical or otherwise (hide in shadows, blur, mirror image, reflected image, invisibility). Duration: 2 rounds/lvl
- Resistance to charm and sleep (90%)
- Magic resistance: +2 to saving throws, 5% immunity
- Thieving skill adjustment: +10% move silently, +15% hide in shadows
- +1 proficiency in crossbows and long swords
- Reputation: -3 starting reputation, max 18 reputation (as Chaotic Evil, you would start with 5, other Evils wit 6, Neutral with 7, Goods with 8, Lawful Good with 9))
- Blindness to strong and sudden light (general daylight not, since char is expecting it), this includes: False Dawn and Sunray spells, situational strong brightness in dungeons, e.g.: sunstones used in the dungeons at Umar Hills (this last part might be complicated to implement, so could be scrapped)
- -1 THAC0 when fighting outside in daylight
- Can only choose Evil and Neutral Alignments (I'm not sure about this though)
I based most of this on info found on the internet, and adjusted them to BG racial traits.
Compared to a regular elf, the following things are different:
+: INT and CHA bonus; Darkness and Faerie Fire; +2 magic saving throws and 5% immunity (gnomes, dwarves and halflings have +1 saving throw for every 3.5 constitution)
-: all the negatives
adjusted: +1 prof in crossbows instead of bows, thieving racials changed by removing pick pocket 5% bonus and lock picking -5% penalty, and adding +5% to move silently and hide in shadows
As for avaible classes: similar to elves, except they cannot choose Helm or Lathander Cleric Kits, can choose Bard (seriously why can't elves choose to be bards???), Fighter/Cleric and Cleric/Mage. And I'm not so sure about allowing them to be Rangers either...
For simpler implementation: remove racial spells and blindness.
Form the manual AD&D Forgotten Realms - Drow of the underdark (by Ed Greenwood):
- Drow Senses -
Drow eyes can see heat patterns in air and rock thanks to their 120 range INFRAVISION (not darkvision ^^). Against a dim gray cold stone backdrop, progressively warmer hues show as subtle blue, purple, red,
and warm yellow. The warmth comes from hot springs, magma, seeping water, and fissure-breezes. Drow learn to use the shadows of these varying hues for concealment when stalking, in much the same way as a surface creature uses the shadows produced by the sun, moon, and other light sources. Like surface dwellers, drow must learn to read heat-hues; the meanings of various shades and patterns become known to drow only through teaching or experience in the field.
Near areas of drow habitation in the Underdark, the varying heat-hues of the natural Underdark are blurred by the higher ambient heat of many gathered, living beings and their activities. Drow cities also sport magical glows, a few actual lights (notably the sharp, foreign-to-most-drow radiances of the candles of studying wizards and important rituals to Lolth), and the far more common continual faerie fire glows that highlight drow sculpture.
Drow are proud of the beauty of their designs, and usually outline the most impressive works with this spell.
Drow hearing is highly developed. Inthe Underdark, one learns to find water by timing the echoes of dripping or
running water, and to detect coming rock shifts or collapses by listening for the natural grating and groaning sounds of unshaped rock.
Drow have long, slender, sensitive fingers, and a highly-developed tactile sense. In addition to their silent language
of gestures, stances, and expressions, they are able to read subtle, braille-like secret signs left on rock walls, message stones, and other places by fellow drow. The drow sense of smell, however, is not so acute. The all-pervasive smell of the rock and damp air all around, tainted by ever-present mold and fungus spores and the scent of drow and slave bodies, is a strong background. Most drow have been exposed to strong incense and offering- burnings since infancy, which further serves to dull the olfactory sense. Drow still enjoy perfume, incense, and the like, but their smell is only about as acute as that of most humans far less than that of many native inhabitants of the Underdark.
- Personal Magic -
All civilized drow receive training in wizardly magic (discussed in the next chapter), both to test their aptitude for casting spells and to train them in the mental concentration necessary for control of their natural spell-like abilities
(DM NOTE: SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES FADE WITH TIME ON THE SURFACE WORLD. BY THE TIME A PC IS OF ADVENTURING
AGE, THEY WILL HAVE FADED AWAY.)
These innate base powers, so-called because all drow are born with them, and with practice can learn to use them without formal tutelage, are the abilities to evoke dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. These powers vary slightly from place to place according to lineage, natural differences between individuals, differences in the prolonged favor of drow deities, and variations in the local intensity of the natural radiation of the Underdark.
Drow control over them varies with mental state, sickness, age and training, and other conditions. A dying drow may knowingly pour his or her lifeforce into the exercise of these powers, doubling or even trebling their area of effect, duration, and/or damage, if the DM desires. DM NOTE: CONCENTRATION IS NOT NECESSARY FOR DROW
TO CONTROL BASE POWER EFFECTS. In general terms, these powers may all be used only once every 24 hours (144
turns). For example, a drow who levitates may not re-awaken that natural power until 144 full turns have elapsed from the instant levitation ceased. Any natural spell-like power can be used continuously for 1 round per level of the drow, plus a round. It can be ended prematurely by certain hostile magical effects (such as dispel magic), by the will of the drow employing them, or by the undertaking of spellcasting or the use of another base power by the same drow (drow must concentrate to maintain their spell-like powers, and can only use one at a time).
The base powers create effects independent of a drows person; once unleashed, they can be moved about by the creating drow (at a base MV of 16) by effort of will. Except as noted in this chapter, all of these effects function as the spells of the same names, detailed in the Players Handbook. The areas of effect of the last two spells increase by 10 square feet, or in a globe, 2 of additional radius (DMs choice of which, according to the situation) per level of the creating drow, above (not including) 4th level. The number of light sources created by the dancing lights effect also increases by one for every two levels of the creator beyond 4th: that is, one additional at 6th, another at 8th, and so on. Range and control also increase by 10/level beyond 4th. A creating drow who has received even rudimentary training can always create an effect of lesser size, range, and efficacy than the maximum possible (e.g. a 5-radius sphere of darkness around a foes head, rather than a 20-radius sphere cloaking the foe and four companions).
The darkness cast by the natural power of drow is globe-shaped. Its base size (the maximum usable by drow of 4th level or less) is a sphere of 20 radius. Like the darkness created by a priests spell, it is impervious to both infravision and normal sight. True seeing and the vision of certain creatures (such as extra-planar beings and inherently magical or created creatures such as gargoyles, golems, and homunculi) can penetrate drow darkness. Certain magical devices are also effective against it: for example, a gem of seeing sees through it, noting its presence only as a dark tint over a distinct area, and the pale light property of a gem of brightness dispels it. (Use these references as a guide in judging the results of drow-darkness contacts with other magic.)
Drow of above fourth level gain mature powers of levitate, know alignment, and
detect magic.
Drow priests and priestesses also gain additional spell-like powers (in addition to their spells) through divine favor.
These include clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic. At the
- Dark Elven Wizards -
The most dangerous of drow, and those most likely to be encountered alone outside of their Underdark communities (as opposed to fighting bands) are wizards. Drow wizards, especially males, are often driven into exile out of fear at the treatment they expect from those of rival Houses, jealous priestesses, and the angered
authority of Lolth. Dark elven wizards often become or accompany merchants, dealing with the surface world where their magic serves to protect and disguise them. Their endless need for more magical knowledge and
spell components drives them into lots of adventuring, or the frequent hiring of professional explorers.
Drow wizards can become quite powerful (see the section which follows). Elsewhere in this sourcebook, the spells and magical items they can craft and/or use are detailed.
Some unusual familiars can appear in the company of these folk. Drow wizards favor watchspiders and hunting spiders (both detailed under Spider, Subterranean in this sourcebook) as familiars, but more often must employ snakes, spitting crawlers, pedipalpi, solifugids, and all manner of spiders, instead. The really fortunate ones acquire the companionship of an azmyth. (All of the aforementioned creatures are detailed in the Monsters section of this book.)
- Level Advancement and Exceptional Drow -
Drow without exceptional prime requisites (not counting PCs, and noble NPCs) cannot advance beyond certain limits in their experience levels.
Drow are considered as elves, as far as level restrictions under Table 7 on page 15 of the Dungeon Masters Guide.
The limits as priests and wizards, however, do not apply: drow are limited in advancement as priests only by the will of their gods (who typically end such advancement by destruction or elevation to demigod servant-status around 22nd level), and as wizards only by the availability of new spells to learn, tutors, and magical items or components to study and experiment with. Simply put, DROW WIZARDS HAVE NO LEVEL RESTRICTIONS.
Those who have a taste for adventure are effectively unlimited in level advancement; those who are stay-athome-
studiers are typically slowed in advancement to a halt between 17th to 19th level due to simple lack of experiences
and materials.
As long as BG is within the constraints of the FR mythos, then the game would need to add a permanent reputation handicap for drow characters - a huge one... that can't be bought out. Or a disguise feature. Or a feature that enabled the protagonist to not interact with NPCs via stealth or the like.
I love drow but when taken out of their own cultural ruleset they quickly turn bland. If it was a feature that is going to be done, it really needs to be done properly and with a lot of thought.
In terms of @kamuizin 's thoughts, I have to agree and disagree to some extent. As much as I am obsessed with drow and drow culture, their presence on the surface in FR is shaky at best. Many people take Drizzt to be a justification for their own drow, but even if we were to take Salvatore's word as rule (in fact, he did create many of the details of drow culture it seems) he himself describes how rare a good drow is, and how he will never be accepted, is always treated with hostility, yada yada. Thus, there is a huge obstacle in that.
However, I do agree with @Aliteri in that Baldur's Gate has no restrictions in having to be completely ground to FR, and FR as an expansive universe already acknowledges that people have different interpretations of the world. Now, I like the idea of giving a drow PC the same difficulties that Viccy has, because that is consistent with how the original developers decided to treat drow. Despite this, I have a thought that the developers may have created the dialogue and the considerable lack of difficulties facing Viccy because she isn't the head of the party, so to speak. She's just one of the gang, and finds protection behind a powerful Bhallspawn.
Still, in the case of justifying the dialogue not being changed, why can't the PC do exactly what Viccy did before coming along the party? She kept her hood up. Sure, forcing drow PC's to keep their hood up seems a bit restrictive (only in an RP sense, yet if you're RPing a drow, I think you expected that.) I think what could work here is if something was added to the introduction of the game, nothing longer than a paragraph describing how the PC usually acts based on their race. It could be something that differs for each main and sub, and the drow one could add a little something that essentially states that due to the color of his/her skin, CHARNAME has faced difficulty throughout his/her childhood and has found many a benefit in keeping his/her hood drawn.
This is true, although you're less of a child and more of a ward - this is evident enough with having a PC that is anything but human. Thus, being a drow is not really any more a difference than being a dwarf, gnome, or other variety of elf, from that standpoint.
Also, I'd just like to mention that there is already a drow Bhallspawn present in the original content: Sendai.
@kamuizin, I think like @Tanthalas said, you're taking too strict an attitude with lore vs. gameplay. The situations you listed are relatively subjective - there's nothing to say that those would be the repercussions of having a drow player character instead of another race. In fact, due to Viconia's inclusion in the game, there's a lot to be said for the opposite case. And yes, I realize you have addressed this as below
Now, as for the drow's starting stats being balanced...that's another matter -_-
Ever heard of prejudice? Since the vast majority of drow elves are evil murderers, people are scared of them and hate them. It is a FACT per every source book ever published under the D&D franchise that drow elves are feared and loathed in the surface, and mostly attacked on sight regardless of their alignment. You could play a good drow elf and still be attacked on sight by the Flaming Fist. How a drow could possibly be allowed into Suldanessellar and collaborate with surface elves is beyond me, considering how fierce the hatred runs between surface elves and drow elves. There is absolutely no way for Baldur's Gate to let you play as a drow elf and be consistent / make roleplay sense at the same time.
If you say you can live with the inconsistency, that's fine. I'd rather not, but I can just as well choose not to play as a drow elf if they're implemented. But trying to justify drow elves as a viable choice that makes sense for CHARNAME is a vane quest if there ever was one :-)