Technically they do....a really low wisdom actually does have a save penalty, if properly implemented. Starts about 8 I believe for -1 penalty, and gets lower from there.
Due to charisma being pretty tacked on that this point (we don't have followers, so the follower/henchmen penalty doesn't really matter), there's just not a whole lot of options. If they added stat requirement for certain dialog selections, where you either needed a minimum stat or depending on the response a particular class to be able to select it, it might add some value to it.
I still support the idea for stats doing more, thus making stat choices has much more gravitas throughout the game rather than just 18 18 18 3 3 3 sort of stats
In 2e, since they introduced the "Languages. Modern" and "Languages, Ancient", there was a rule that you could "turn in" your extra languages you got based on your intelligence into non-weapon proficiencies, but not weapon proficiencies. But since they don't use non-weapon proficiencies in the game, that would really make no difference to game characters.
In 2e, since they introduced the "Languages. Modern" and "Languages, Ancient", there was a rule that you could "turn in" your extra languages you got based on your intelligence into non-weapon proficiencies, but not weapon proficiencies. But since they don't use non-weapon proficiencies in the game, that would really make no difference to game characters.
There was an option in the complete fighters handbook that have bonus weapon proficiencies for high intelligence
Strongly support this, the lack of importance of both stats has always niggled at me. Hopefully Beamdog can eventually find the time to implement this.
It's definitely something that's been bugging me: wis and int's relative uselessness to non-caster classes, the fact that wis didn't do what the (old) manual said and the fact that even a mostly brain-dead mage can cast level 9 spells. I think implementing even a small part of the changes proposed in this thread would be a step forward.
The only stat that is in the game but doesn't function is MAX_SPELL_LEVEL in intmod.2da (which is a bug, incidentally, and one that we're working on fixing).
If there are other stats that exist in 2da's but aren't working properly, please let us know about those.
(It's worth noting that with MAX_SPELL_LEVEL working properly, Edwin is a much better mage than other mage NPCs in BG2.)
Which why it'd be a good idea to nerf his amulet back to vanilla BG1 levels (Just 1st and 2nd level spells) if this change was implemented, and possibly even shift Evocation to conjuration's opposed school as per PnP (yes divination is technically also their opposed school, but they lose so little of it (3 total spells (not levels..just spells) by the core books), it's not even a penalty. And in BG Divination is so useless it's...not a penalty, they don't even get any of the truly useful divination spells. True-sight is the only kind of useful thing they lose in both versions).
Is that also going to implement divine spell failure chance for low wisdom? (Warranted, Anomen (5%) and Minsc (20%) are the only divine casters with wisdom low enough to be penalized, but I've never seen them fail so I'm pretty sure that line isn't working either). And unless something was changed discreetly in BG;EE, the wisdom adjustment isn't being applied vs the proper spells either.
Also dexterity adjustment isn't being applied when dual-wielding (supposed to reduce the penalty) and to my knowledge isn't being applied vs the proper spells...can you confirm it works?
Also Con has stat lines for resurrection survival and system shock and saves vs poison, but to my knowledge they're completely unused.
Everything you just described isn't currently in the game's engine or design. That's not to say they wouldn't make good feature requests, but if you want them to be looked at I recommend starting a request thread for those specific elements.
But you just said everything in the 2das is implemented or if it doesn't work yet, it's a bug being worked on....all those values are in the 2das for each stat and aren't being used (to my knowledge).
The only lines in wisdom being used are bonus spells for wisdom and lore bonus. (it also has lines for spell failure and save bonus)
The only thing intelligence is max known spells per level, lore, and spell learn chance. (also has a line for max cast-able level)
In Con only the HP bonus is implemented. (resurrection success, poison save, and system shock are also there)
The only things in the dex 2da being used are applying the dex adjustment to AC (this is the value that's also supposed to be applied vs certain spell saves or to reduce the penalty for dual-wielding), missile adjustment, and bonus to some thief skills.
Str is fully implemented, but due to using a threshold system vs a chance system (no retries), is less effective for lower str characters then it should be.
The charisma 2da is also fully implemented, but there just aren't enough situations that make use of reaction adjustments to give it any real value. It's biggest benefit is your price discount, since the bonus to reaction for having high rep is easily enough to make all but 7 challenges in the whole series.
The only stat that is in the game but doesn't function is MAX_SPELL_LEVEL in intmod.2da (which is a bug, incidentally, and one that we're working on fixing).
If there are other stats that exist in 2da's but aren't working properly, please let us know about those.
(It's worth noting that with MAX_SPELL_LEVEL working properly, Edwin is a much better mage than other mage NPCs in BG2.)
If by this you mean that you are wanting to get MAX_SPELL_LEVEL working such that future modders can use this feature then that's great.
On the other hand if you are actually planning on implementing the maximum spell level limits by intelligence then I strongly feel that this shouldn't be added as a baseline feature. As you noted, it would pretty much cripple every mage NPC other than Edwin.
Just because something is in the PnP game doesn't necessarily mean it will translate well into BG. Level limits for non-human races for example would be cripplingly restrictive to non-human races in BG.
You may need to describe the exact 2das you're talking about, because I'm looking at them now and the only item from your list that's in them is the max_spell_level in Intmod.2da.
Open them up in Near Infinity or DLTCEP, you can see the exact columns that are used. These are the tables for each ability score:
DEXMOD (Reaction, Missile, and AC; Reaction applies a modifier to your weapon's speed factor)
HPCONBON (HP per level for non-warriors and warriors; Min Roll, which affects the minimum that you can roll when rolling HP; Regeneration Rate, and Fatigue Bonus)
INTMOD (% Chance to Learn Spell, Max Spell Level, Max Number of Spells Per Level, Maze Duration)
LOREBON (Affects the bonus Lore gained for Intelligence and Wisdom)
RMODCHR (Affects Reaction Adjustment from Charisma)
SAVECNDH (Shorty save bonus for Dwarves and Halflings)
SAVECNG (Shorty save bonus for gnomes)
SKILLDEX (Bonuses to thieving skills from Dexterity)
STRMOD/STRMODEX (Bonuses to THAC0, Damage, Force Locks, and Weight from Strength)
And that's it; those are the 2da tables that use the character's ability scores.
Again, if you think that one of the columns in a 2da isn't working the way it's supposed to, then report a bug. If you want a new column added that does something else, though, that's definitely a feature request (and if it's not Intelligence or Wisdom, it doesn't belong in this thread).
You may need to describe the exact 2das you're talking about, because I'm looking at them now and the only item from your list that's in them is the max_spell_level in Intmod.2da.
Open them up in Near Infinity or DLTCEP, you can see the exact columns that are used. These are the tables for each ability score:
DEXMOD (Reaction, Missile, and AC; Reaction applies a modifier to your weapon's speed factor)
HPCONBON (HP per level for non-warriors and warriors; Min Roll, which affects the minimum that you can roll when rolling HP; Regeneration Rate, and Fatigue Bonus)
INTMOD (% Chance to Learn Spell, Max Spell Level, Max Number of Spells Per Level, Maze Duration)
LOREBON (Affects the bonus Lore gained for Intelligence and Wisdom)
RMODCHR (Affects Reaction Adjustment from Charisma)
SAVECNDH (Shorty save bonus for Dwarves and Halflings)
SAVECNG (Shorty save bonus for gnomes)
SKILLDEX (Bonuses to thieving skills from Dexterity)
STRMOD/STRMODEX (Bonuses to THAC0, Damage, Force Locks, and Weight from Strength)
And that's it; those are the 2da tables that use the character's ability scores.
Again, if you think that one of the columns in a 2da isn't working the way it's supposed to, then report a bug. If you want a new column added that does something else, though, that's definitely a feature request (and if it's not Intelligence or Wisdom, it doesn't belong in this thread).
I believe you forgot the most important of them all; Intoxcon.2da
Interesting discussion on this. The immunity to illusions sound interesting but, as mentioned, does seem a bit "hacky." I would like to second the request (I believe it was made) to externalize/add columns for saving throw bonuses for high INT and WIS to relevant 2DA files. I was thrilled to see that the weapon styles were externalized in this manner in the last patch, and it would also be pretty cool if we could make useless-for-some-characters stats into something at least vaguely appealing.
It's perplexing that they haven't added magic defense adjustment for wisdom already. Why would they not want to make a total dump stat less dumpy? Same thing with intelligence.
It would be kind of neat to see some kind of defence adjustment (probably just saving throw vs spell adjustments) made for having higher wisdom scores. Something that maybe you could turn on in the baldur.ini file. Just for people interested in that kind of thing.
This is what the wisdom table looks like in the players manual. [spoiler]
High Int and Wis should never allow cheese play, only that one could make the spells do half effect, never totally nullify them!
There should be some down sides to too high stats, ie too much Str you get just a bit slower, high Wis one may mix up things and Int come to the wrong conclusion, etc.
So much promises, but so much lack of interest of give real improvments to BG(2) EE... each time more the game falls in oblivion with no more improvments.
UI change and a few things here and there, diminish now the incompatibility with most of the mods for BG (2) EE launched for the original game and...
The enhancement Is Better than before (but some mods area really being missed) but nothing special is being made, what is sad and a waste of potential.
I haven't been aware of this thread so far. I agree, Wisdom and Intelligence should be improved and adjusted. They should give real and noticeable effects that can compete with the other three stats (str, dex, con).
Well, that always bugged me, that 3 stats are dump stats for most of the classess. Would be great if ALL of the stats gave you some kind of bonuses.
The easiest thing to do would be to add bonus to saving throws for high int/wis/con and penalty for low stats. For example: High Con - bonus for saving throws against poison and paralyse High Int - bonus for saving throws against death magic and petrification High Wis - bonus for saving throws against spell and polymorph
By high I mean something around 14+ By low I mean lower than 10
Charisma should have bigger impact for prices in shops and only CHARNAME's charisma would count toward prices. This way you would have to invest some points into that stat.
Comments
If stats gave different bonuses by class, then some characters might be shockingly more useful then they are.
You might also be penalizing yourself by min/maxing as there might be an issue for a fighter with 3 wisdom or charisma.
Due to charisma being pretty tacked on that this point (we don't have followers, so the follower/henchmen penalty doesn't really matter), there's just not a whole lot of options. If they added stat requirement for certain dialog selections, where you either needed a minimum stat or depending on the response a particular class to be able to select it, it might add some value to it.
I think implementing even a small part of the changes proposed in this thread would be a step forward.
Anyway i also support this topic.
If there are other stats that exist in 2da's but aren't working properly, please let us know about those.
(It's worth noting that with MAX_SPELL_LEVEL working properly, Edwin is a much better mage than other mage NPCs in BG2.)
Is that also going to implement divine spell failure chance for low wisdom? (Warranted, Anomen (5%) and Minsc (20%) are the only divine casters with wisdom low enough to be penalized, but I've never seen them fail so I'm pretty sure that line isn't working either). And unless something was changed discreetly in BG;EE, the wisdom adjustment isn't being applied vs the proper spells either.
Also dexterity adjustment isn't being applied when dual-wielding (supposed to reduce the penalty) and to my knowledge isn't being applied vs the proper spells...can you confirm it works?
Also Con has stat lines for resurrection survival and system shock and saves vs poison, but to my knowledge they're completely unused.
The only lines in wisdom being used are bonus spells for wisdom and lore bonus. (it also has lines for spell failure and save bonus)
The only thing intelligence is max known spells per level, lore, and spell learn chance. (also has a line for max cast-able level)
In Con only the HP bonus is implemented. (resurrection success, poison save, and system shock are also there)
The only things in the dex 2da being used are applying the dex adjustment to AC (this is the value that's also supposed to be applied vs certain spell saves or to reduce the penalty for dual-wielding), missile adjustment, and bonus to some thief skills.
Str is fully implemented, but due to using a threshold system vs a chance system (no retries), is less effective for lower str characters then it should be.
The charisma 2da is also fully implemented, but there just aren't enough situations that make use of reaction adjustments to give it any real value. It's biggest benefit is your price discount, since the bonus to reaction for having high rep is easily enough to make all but 7 challenges in the whole series.
On the other hand if you are actually planning on implementing the maximum spell level limits by intelligence then I strongly feel that this shouldn't be added as a baseline feature. As you noted, it would pretty much cripple every mage NPC other than Edwin.
Just because something is in the PnP game doesn't necessarily mean it will translate well into BG. Level limits for non-human races for example would be cripplingly restrictive to non-human races in BG.
Open them up in Near Infinity or DLTCEP, you can see the exact columns that are used. These are the tables for each ability score:
DEXMOD (Reaction, Missile, and AC; Reaction applies a modifier to your weapon's speed factor)
HPCONBON (HP per level for non-warriors and warriors; Min Roll, which affects the minimum that you can roll when rolling HP; Regeneration Rate, and Fatigue Bonus)
INTMOD (% Chance to Learn Spell, Max Spell Level, Max Number of Spells Per Level, Maze Duration)
LOREBON (Affects the bonus Lore gained for Intelligence and Wisdom)
RMODCHR (Affects Reaction Adjustment from Charisma)
SAVECNDH (Shorty save bonus for Dwarves and Halflings)
SAVECNG (Shorty save bonus for gnomes)
SKILLDEX (Bonuses to thieving skills from Dexterity)
STRMOD/STRMODEX (Bonuses to THAC0, Damage, Force Locks, and Weight from Strength)
And that's it; those are the 2da tables that use the character's ability scores.
Again, if you think that one of the columns in a 2da isn't working the way it's supposed to, then report a bug. If you want a new column added that does something else, though, that's definitely a feature request (and if it's not Intelligence or Wisdom, it doesn't belong in this thread).
Same thing with intelligence.
It would be kind of neat to see some kind of defence adjustment (probably just saving throw vs spell adjustments) made for having higher wisdom scores. Something that maybe you could turn on in the baldur.ini file. Just for people interested in that kind of thing.
This is what the wisdom table looks like in the players manual. [spoiler] [/spoiler]
UI change and a few things here and there, diminish now the incompatibility with most of the mods for BG (2) EE launched for the original game and...
The enhancement Is Better than before (but some mods area really being missed) but nothing special is being made, what is sad and a waste of potential.
I agree, Wisdom and Intelligence should be improved and adjusted. They should give real and noticeable effects that can compete with the other three stats (str, dex, con).
Random pnp based addition to OP:
I think in the complete fighters handbook(2e) you could get additional weapon proficiencies for high intelligence.
The easiest thing to do would be to add bonus to saving throws for high int/wis/con and penalty for low stats.
For example:
High Con - bonus for saving throws against poison and paralyse
High Int - bonus for saving throws against death magic and petrification
High Wis - bonus for saving throws against spell and polymorph
By high I mean something around 14+
By low I mean lower than 10
Charisma should have bigger impact for prices in shops and only CHARNAME's charisma would count toward prices. This way you would have to invest some points into that stat.