I can say something about @Battlehamster's "chicken" argument from personal experience. I grew up around chickens, because my grandmother raised them. Anybody who thinks chickens don't show signs of emotion and sentience has never spent time around chickens. The baby chicks cry for their mothers, and have clear "happy" and "distress" vocalizations that are easily understood by humans. The same goes for the adults.
The hens show behaviors towards their eggs and chicks that any human mother should identify with easily. They cluck with pride, they "coo" to their chicks, and cover them with their wings lovingly. Hens have been known to throw themselves on top of their chicks to save them from hawks, sacrificing their own lives for the chicks. We even have an expression in English - "mother hen", which refers to an overattentive, bossy, smothering female, teacher, or boss.
The same goes for the roosters. They puff out their chests, flex their muscles, and strut to impress females just like any human male. They love to dominate and fight for their territory and their "harems". They crow to show their dominance and to frighten off potential rival roosters. We have several expressions in English for human behaviors that are based on roosters.
The flocks roost together at night, and they cuddle together for warmth and coo softly to each other.
Many of these natural chicken behaviors are repressed brutally by chicken farms through overcrowding and imprisonment in cages so tiny the egg hens can't even stand up or stretch out their wings. The chickens are basically driven insane through torture.
These facts have been weighing on my conscience for years, because I love to eat eggs and chicken meat. The same goes for what I know about how cows are treated, compared to the behaviors of cows that show emotion and sentience. It feels so good to have finally found a way to eat very good, satisfying food, knowing that I am not contributing to all the horrible torture of these poor animals.
As to @Battlehamster's argument about humans needing to eat cows, pigs, and chickens so that they don't overpopulate, I will repress my tendency to answer that sarcastically. We have a population of millions and millions of cows, chickens, and pigs to feed because we bred them!
If we stop eating them, then we can stop breeding them. Just castrate most of the males, and the excess populations of them will die off quickly. It's the same principle as the need to spay and neuter most pet dogs and cats in order to reduce the suffering of dogs and cats.
Once we stop breeding them to unnaturally large populations, we can stop wasting resources of land and water on feeding food animals. Win-win, all around.
@FinneousPJ, I assume you also object to spaying and neutering dogs and cats? It can be done painlessly and humanely, and is needed in order to reduce suffering that has been caused by humans.
@belgarathmth I think it's weird you think it's wrong to "painlessly and humanely" kill an animal for food, but it's fine to cut them up for castration. What if I "painlessly and humanely" amputate the leg of an animal, is that fine? What if I then eat it?
@FinneousPJ, they are not being killed painlessly and humanely for food. They are being tortured and killed slowly and horribly for food. That's why we're arguing.
It's not impossible, lol. You're just being a read end now. Production of meat where the animals aren't exposed to suffering is entirely possible. I'm sure there are farms out there that treat animals just fine. It seems like you're upset about some sort of mass production of meat and then generalizing that to any producer.
Fine, but if [Animals] were [painlessly and humanely killed] it'd be okay [to eat them]?
Not to me it wouldn't.
I think it's inherently cruel to kill an individual to eat him or her, no matter how much pain is involved in the process. Not to mention the fact that we usually kill them when they're babies:
About the neutering, instead of debating how much it would be a justified action, I'd prefer to point out that it wouldn't be necessary at all: the ratio of males to females in breeding farms is such that it would be really easy to avoid over-reproduction even without having to resort to that kind of surgery.
EDIT: removed the spoiler tag because not seeing the truth shouldn't be an option.
@FinneousPJ They surely are in the biological sense of the term: «a single organism capable of independent existence». But that's the whole point of this discussion: for anti-speciesists Animals are to be considered persons, while for carnists they aren't.
According to that definition, a plant is an individual. Does that mean that they are to be considered "persons"?
@TJ_Hooker You probably missed the "but" between the two sentences of mine you quoted; so let me expand on the second one: for anti-speciesist, Animals should be considered persons, i.e. individuals in a sense broader than the biological one.
Plant are a different matter, but the day someone proves scientifically that they have feelings and personalities (in the same way we already know that the Animals do) I'll happily switch to a fruitarian diet.
And where was animals having a personality proven scientifically? Note also that you say animals, not an animal and not particular species. Why do you keep capitalizing the word animal?
@alnair Personally, I feel that the EEG electrode tests of Dr. Bill Willians very much proved that plants are able to feel pain, or some species of plants at the very least. I also wager this applies to funghi as well.
On the other hand, it's very likely that simpler constructed animals such as cnidaria lack the needed self-awareness to feel pain. Although, I can imagine that jellyfishes would perhaps feel hunger. But no one asked a jelly to make sure on that one. Or perhaps some people did ask, but the jelly simply didn't want to answer. I need to ponder some more on this subject.
In any case, I wouldn't recommend you a fruitarian diet. At all. Imho, it's the worst kind of diet there is. There are enough horror stories floating around where parents force their kids this monstrous diet and are then surprised that the child dies of malnutrition.
Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors. Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness.
(It is signed by «a prominent international group of cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neurophysiologists, neuroanatomists and computational neuroscientists».)
Note also that you say animals, not an animal and not particular species.
Of course not all species have the same degree of consciousness, but until we find a way to actually measure it (suggestion: don't hold your breath) I don't like the idea of putting on a scale how much each of them is worth our consideration. Hence the generalisation.
Why do you keep capitalizing the word animal?
That's a (relatively) old habit that sometimes still pops out: in some philosophical publications (Italian ones at least, like Veganzetta and Liberazioni), the capital A is shorthand for "non-human animals". Because, you know, we're animals too: we just like to forget it.
@alnair That's fine, but can you please link to the study which concludes definitely that animals have personalities? Obviously, I'd need it to be peer-reviewed and well integrated into the consensus.
@TJ_Hooker You probably missed the "but" between the two sentences of mine you quoted; so let me expand on the second one: for anti-speciesist, Animals should be considered persons, i.e. individuals in a sense broader than the biological one.
Plant are a different matter, but the day someone proves scientifically that they have feelings and personalities (in the same way we already know that the Animals do) I'll happily switch to a fruitarian diet.
Fair enough. To be honest that was pretty much just an (attempted) 'gotcha' question, which is poor form on my part. Carry on then.
@FinneousPJ Next time, just google the most relevant words before asking for something... saves me the trouble
Animal Personalities: Behavior, Physiology, and Evolution Publisher: University Of Chicago Press (March 7, 2013) Review: “The editors provide a cornucopia full of studies on animal personalities, diverse in biological approaches and levels of investigation as well as in species. Gone are the days, not so long ago, when the intrepid few planted the seeds of research on personalities in animals other than humans and did so despite suspicion of the enterprise.” (Jeanne Altmann, Princeton University) --- animalpersonalityinstitute.net The Animal Personality Institute (API), founded in 2004, is an interdisciplinary group of researcher dedicated to advancing the scientific understanding of personality and temperament in non-human animals. --- www.pnas.org Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America Searching journal content for "animal personality" in full text. Displaying results 1-10 of 63924 --- rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org Proceedings of the Royal Society (national Academy of science in the UK) B - Biological Sciences Searching journal content for "animal personality" (all words) in full text. Displaying results 1-10 of 134 --- www.sciencemag.org International weekly science journal, published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). Searching journal content for "animal personality" in full text. Results 1-10 of 82347 found
Are those peer-reviewed and into the consensus enough for you?
Personally, I feel that the EEG electrode tests of Dr. Bill Willians very much proved that plants are able to feel pain, or some species of plants at the very least.
Interestingly enough, the only website I could find about this "experiment" (other than forum posts pointing to it anyway) is this page on The Uncoveror; while the website for the Helvetica Institute, which is where the alleged "botanist Dr. Bill Williams" should work, «is produced in conjunction with uncoveror.com» (quoting from the footer).
No other mention of this supposed "scientist" is anywhere else to be found. (The same goes for all the "Notable Graduates" listed on that site.)
This quote of his is also quite funny:
I hadn't thought of it until now, but how does a fruit tree know how to make a sweet attractive fruit that animals will eat when it drops off, and spread the seeds? How do flowers know how to attract bees with sweet, fragrant nectar, and get their pollen spread about, assuring a next generation? They may be doing this consciously!
So apparently he never heard of evolution...
EDIT: looking at The Uncoveror again, it appears evident it's just filled with hoaxes. I feel stupid now...
And before someone mentions the Backster effect, here's the debunking of that experiment.
In any case, I wouldn't recommend you a fruitarian diet. At all. Imho, it's the worst kind of diet there is.
I've actually eaten mostly fruit - with the occasional raw greens - for a couple of months, some years ago, and it wasn't bad at all. Lots of energy, both physical and mental; an uncanny weight loss, which was my aim; almost no sweat (it was summer in Sicily...) and completely no BO; overall an exciting experience. That's why I'm not terrified at the idea that plants might be sentient.
There are enough horror stories floating around where parents force their kids this monstrous diet and are then surprised that the child dies of malnutrition.
Children die of malnutrition when they're fed a diet that is not suitable for their age, be it fruitarian or omnivorous.
@alnair From the very first link: "Ask anyone who has owned a pet and they’ll assure you that, yes, animals have personalities. And science is beginning to agree." Is beginning to agree, but hasn't yet. But it seems like it's a thing
I've actually eaten mostly fruit - with the occasional raw greens - for a couple of months, some years ago, and it wasn't bad at all. Lots of energy, both physical and mental; an uncanny weight loss, which was my aim; almost no sweat (it was summer in Sicily...) and completely no BO; overall an exciting experience. That's why I'm not terrified at the idea that plants might be sentient.
If you don't mind me asking, how many months did you follow fruitarianism exactly? I specificly ask because pure fruitarianism (i.e. only fruits and nuts, nothing else) is considered "healthy" only in short terms, but can have devastingly effects on both body and mind in the long run. And I say this not in jest either.
Children die of malnutrition when they're fed a diet that is not suitable for their age, be it fruitarian or omnivorous.
The odds for malnutrition to happen in teens or younger children are with a fruitarian diet much higher than otherwise. But I agree with you that this can also happen with every kind of diet--be it a normal omnivorous diet, vegetarian diet, or vegan diet. It's the parents responsibility to prevent such dreadful things from happening in the first place.
@alnair From the very first link: "Ask anyone who has owned a pet and they’ll assure you that, yes, animals have personalities. And science is beginning to agree." Is beginning to agree, but hasn't yet. But it seems like it's a thing
It's definitely a new field of research, yes, but thankfully a fast-advancing one at that.
If you don't mind me asking, how many months did you follow fruitarianism exactly?
Oh, I never followed fruitarianism per se; it was a raw vegan diet following Dr. Doug Graham's 80/10/10 plan, which is very high in fruit but also includes greens like lettuce.
I specificly ask because pure fruitarianism (i.e. only fruits and nuts, nothing else) is considered "healthy" only in short terms, but can have devastingly effects on both body and mind in the long run. And I say this not in jest either.
Truth be told, I've seen those devastating effects on some long-term fruitarian acquaintances I had (who then switched back to normal veganism); so it's not hard to agree with the warning on that kind of diet. But I also believe that those acquaintances' main mistake was to eat as little as possible (they were aiming to become breatharians, go figure!) while the staple of healthy raw veganism is to eat as much fruit as you physically can...
It's the parents responsibility to prevent such dreadful things from happening in the first place.
Definitely. It's not like a baby could survive drinking regular cow milk, either... On the other hand, as I've stated before, I personally know several perfectly healthy and happy children that have been vegan since birth and even before, given their parents were vegan at the moment of conception
I return to this forum after a long absence, and for some reason I find this thread to read out of all of them. At least I learned something (even if it was only that I was a morally inferior specist)
Comments
The hens show behaviors towards their eggs and chicks that any human mother should identify with easily. They cluck with pride, they "coo" to their chicks, and cover them with their wings lovingly. Hens have been known to throw themselves on top of their chicks to save them from hawks, sacrificing their own lives for the chicks. We even have an expression in English - "mother hen", which refers to an overattentive, bossy, smothering female, teacher, or boss.
The same goes for the roosters. They puff out their chests, flex their muscles, and strut to impress females just like any human male. They love to dominate and fight for their territory and their "harems". They crow to show their dominance and to frighten off potential rival roosters. We have several expressions in English for human behaviors that are based on roosters.
The flocks roost together at night, and they cuddle together for warmth and coo softly to each other.
Many of these natural chicken behaviors are repressed brutally by chicken farms through overcrowding and imprisonment in cages so tiny the egg hens can't even stand up or stretch out their wings. The chickens are basically driven insane through torture.
These facts have been weighing on my conscience for years, because I love to eat eggs and chicken meat. The same goes for what I know about how cows are treated, compared to the behaviors of cows that show emotion and sentience. It feels so good to have finally found a way to eat very good, satisfying food, knowing that I am not contributing to all the horrible torture of these poor animals.
As to @Battlehamster's argument about humans needing to eat cows, pigs, and chickens so that they don't overpopulate, I will repress my tendency to answer that sarcastically. We have a population of millions and millions of cows, chickens, and pigs to feed because we bred them!
If we stop eating them, then we can stop breeding them. Just castrate most of the males, and the excess populations of them will die off quickly. It's the same principle as the need to spay and neuter most pet dogs and cats in order to reduce the suffering of dogs and cats.
Once we stop breeding them to unnaturally large populations, we can stop wasting resources of land and water on feeding food animals. Win-win, all around.
I think it's inherently cruel to kill an individual to eat him or her, no matter how much pain is involved in the process. Not to mention the fact that we usually kill them when they're babies:
About the neutering, instead of debating how much it would be a justified action, I'd prefer to point out that it wouldn't be necessary at all: the ratio of males to females in breeding farms is such that it would be really easy to avoid over-reproduction even without having to resort to that kind of surgery.
EDIT: removed the spoiler tag because not seeing the truth shouldn't be an option.
You probably missed the "but" between the two sentences of mine you quoted; so let me expand on the second one: for anti-speciesist, Animals should be considered persons, i.e. individuals in a sense broader than the biological one.
Plant are a different matter, but the day someone proves scientifically that they have feelings and personalities (in the same way we already know that the Animals do) I'll happily switch to a fruitarian diet.
On the other hand, it's very likely that simpler constructed animals such as cnidaria lack the needed self-awareness to feel pain. Although, I can imagine that jellyfishes would perhaps feel hunger. But no one asked a jelly to make sure on that one. Or perhaps some people did ask, but the jelly simply didn't want to answer. I need to ponder some more on this subject.
In any case, I wouldn't recommend you a fruitarian diet. At all. Imho, it's the worst kind of diet there is.
There are enough horror stories floating around where parents force their kids this monstrous diet and are then surprised that the child dies of malnutrition.
Next time, just google the most relevant words before asking for something... saves me the trouble
Animal Personalities: Behavior, Physiology, and Evolution
Publisher: University Of Chicago Press (March 7, 2013)
Review: “The editors provide a cornucopia full of studies on animal personalities, diverse in biological approaches and levels of investigation as well as in species. Gone are the days, not so long ago, when the intrepid few planted the seeds of research on personalities in animals other than humans and did so despite suspicion of the enterprise.” (Jeanne Altmann, Princeton University)
---
animalpersonalityinstitute.net
The Animal Personality Institute (API), founded in 2004, is an interdisciplinary group of researcher dedicated to advancing the scientific understanding of personality and temperament in non-human animals.
---
www.pnas.org
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America
Searching journal content for "animal personality" in full text.
Displaying results 1-10 of 63924
---
rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org
Proceedings of the Royal Society (national Academy of science in the UK) B - Biological Sciences
Searching journal content for "animal personality" (all words) in full text.
Displaying results 1-10 of 134
---
www.sciencemag.org
International weekly science journal, published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).
Searching journal content for "animal personality" in full text.
Results 1-10 of 82347 found
Are those peer-reviewed and into the consensus enough for you?
If you want an easier read, though:
Some Crabs Crabbier Than Others
Animal Personalities: Why are some orangutans so happy-go-lucky?
Unnatural selection - Animals have personalities, too. That may be biasing studies of them
No other mention of this supposed "scientist" is anywhere else to be found.
(The same goes for all the "Notable Graduates" listed on that site.)
This quote of his is also quite funny:So apparently he never heard of evolution...
EDIT: looking at The Uncoveror again, it appears evident it's just filled with hoaxes. I feel stupid now...
And before someone mentions the Backster effect, here's the debunking of that experiment. I've actually eaten mostly fruit - with the occasional raw greens - for a couple of months, some years ago, and it wasn't bad at all.
Lots of energy, both physical and mental; an uncanny weight loss, which was my aim; almost no sweat (it was summer in Sicily...) and completely no BO; overall an exciting experience. That's why I'm not terrified at the idea that plants might be sentient. Children die of malnutrition when they're fed a diet that is not suitable for their age, be it fruitarian or omnivorous.
How can you murder our vegetable and fruit friends to eat them! Your evil ways must be stopped!
Have at thee!!
But I also believe that those acquaintances' main mistake was to eat as little as possible (they were aiming to become breatharians, go figure!) while the staple of healthy raw veganism is to eat as much fruit as you physically can... Definitely. It's not like a baby could survive drinking regular cow milk, either...
On the other hand, as I've stated before, I personally know several perfectly healthy and happy children that have been vegan since birth and even before, given their parents were vegan at the moment of conception
Curse you Lord @Shandyr ! CURSE YOU!
I return to this forum after a long absence, and for some reason I find this thread to read out of all of them. At least I learned something (even if it was only that I was a morally inferior specist)
An interesting and odd discussion.
Let's all become Stone Eaters!