I read about 40% of this thread while procrastinating from some work. Wow. I'm sure Being and Nothingness is shorter.
I'm not sure how anyone could consistently be a vegan in the modern age. Animal products are used in ways you wouldn't even imagine. For example, gelatine is used for electroplating metals, various kinds of polymer development, latex development, photograph development, shampoos, etc. etc. And just about any chemical, fabric or paint in your home will have been allergy/toxicology tested on animals.
To me, it seems very arbitrary to decide not to eat animal products, while they're used all around us for non-consumption purposes.
And virtually every medicine has to be tested in animals before it's used in humans. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to live life without using any modern medicine.
Wrote that last sentence too hastily. I am sure they would make efforts to make them vegan... Because it is the effort that is meaningful.
Gelatin is a pervasive product found nearly everywhere. It is literally the cheap glue holding everything together.
Never thought the books I read were non-vegan until @alastair93 's post. Unfortunately he gets an insightful, not that the content was happy reading for me...
First, I agree that animals could be treated better before they are slaughtered but that is pretty much it.
Secondly, being vegan is unhealthy for your body, your child's body perhaps and really, it's overreaction and hypersensitivity.
I mean, if these were different times, even a century before or two, you will get laughed at hardcore. And if you had to survive on your own, well you wouldn't. Your body would become weak and your immune system as well. There are substitutes but those are unnecessary.
I mean, even druids in DnD are not vegans because hunting and eating meat is natural. People going crazy about the cruelness of killing animals, seem REALLY pampered to me and hypersensitive. The type of people that would faint if they saw some blood or saw a documentary about wild life.
And the worst are those that try to turn vegan their exclusively carnivore pets like cats.
By the way, I love many animals and especially cats and dogs. I love playing druids in games as I'm an animal lover and I love nature. But that doesn't mean I go hippie on everything. We have been eating meat before we could talk. We are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores.
Eating eggs, all sorts of meats, milk or other animal products is healthy if done in moderation. But this modern craze about veganism earns a facepalm from me, really.
I mean, if these were different times, even a century before or two, you will get laughed at hardcore.
These aren't different times, and I'm not really concerned with the idea of hypothetical people laughing at a hypothetical vegan a couple hundred years ago.
And if you had to survive on your own, well you wouldn't. Your body would become weak and your immune system as well. There are substitutes but those are unnecessary.
Irrelevant as we live in a time when we can survive and be healthy without meat and dairy. Again, these aren't different times, these are these times.
People going crazy about the cruelness of killing animals, seem REALLY pampered to me and hypersensitive. The type of people that would faint if they saw some blood or saw a documentary about wild life.
Oh no, you think vegans are sissies (my word, not yours), well I'm sure they're not too terribly upset that some people think this. I killed and cleaned my share of animals myself when I was young, and I don't faint at the sight of blood, but I'm inclined to believe that not getting a bit queasy at the thought of unnecessarily killing another living thing is a product of societal conditioning rather than a sign that you're a "tough guy" or some other nonsense. I think that most casual meat-eaters seem REALLY pampered and hypersensitive to me, they only think of meat as a cooked piece of food on a plate or at most a cut of raw meat from the grocery store, take them to a slaughterhouse or ask them to kill their own food and we'll see how un-pampered and insensitive the casual meat consumer seems. Frankly, vegans see the animal when they look at the meat, they take accountability for the fact that they're eating a living creature at least, those that disassociate their food from its source seem to be the ones denying reality to me.
Your (unsourced) assertions that eating meat and dairy is healthy and eating a vegan diet is unhealthy are pretty meaningless, take a look through the thread and do some research if you'd like to make an informed argument to that end (reputable sources would help). Also, your appeals to history are pointless. Just because people would have been resistant to an idea two hundred years ago doesn't make the idea wrong. You might as well tell me that you don't need to live in a world with antibacterial sterilization methods because your great-great-great grandpappy got on fine without believing in germs.
People have done innumerable terrible things throughout history under slogans asserting that progressives are just being ridiculous, but the course of history shows a trend of the theories of social progressives being accepted into common practice over time. Just think of all the progressive movements throughout history and the arguments used against them by conservative apologists. I don't know if it's ethically wrong to eat meat, but to say that you know for sure that it isn't wrong (not that you did, but if you were to) is just an unfounded assertion. If animals deserve even the tiniest bit of respect, then that respect is being violated by the meat industry as it exists right now; and if you want to be a realist, then you need to accept the reality of the world we live in: you personally don't need to eat meat to survive, that's the reality. Also, we're moral agents, we have a responsibility to consider the morality of our actions, so you need to consider whether or not it's morally acceptable to end the life of another living thing (or thousands of them) when doing so is not necessary for your survival.
I'm not being judgmental of whether or not you eat meat by the way, just your assertions about it. I'm on and off with it myself these days, but when I eat meat I know where it came from and I accept that I may be doing something morally wrong.
For the record, I know full well where meat comes from, and I consume it with glee.
Good for you, I'm glad it brings you such glee. For the record, I'm not worked up, I was just responding to the comments that I quoted. Did you have something of relevance to say besides (unsuccessfully) attempting to offend me by noting the glee you experience while eating meat. I love all the people that drop a comment that's just a picture of bacon or some snarky comment about how much they enjoy eating meat and then accuse those defending veganism of getting upset. Methinks those that act out in such ways are revealing themselves to be worked up.
I'm not attempting to offend anyone. You tried to make a point that people deny the source of their food. I'm saying they don't. It seems we have equal evidence.
I see what @FinneousPJ means. Lots of vegetarians say that if we only saw where our meat came from, and how it was prepared, it would make us not want to eat it.
For some bizarre reason, I find raw meat very appetising; especially the big carcasses hanging from butcher shop windows. I also love watching meat being prepared on cooking shows from the whole dead animal. Rather than make me squeamish, that kinda stuff makes me hungry.
I was a vegetarian for 5 years, and people eating meat around me didn't offend or upset me. I was just fantasising about their burgers.
Every cub scout knows how to skin a rabbit or gut a fish. I teach myself, children, about where food comes from and food miles. Some people are put off by this. The majority are not. I think this line of thinking has already been discussed and is null and void.
My point is, that we as humans are scientifically omnivores. We have freaking fangs. We process meat great and don't vomit it out.
And yes, if I HAD to kill an animal to survive, I would do it without question. You are right that it would be hard but it's just as hard to do other jobs, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.
Like the various cleaning services or cleaning the sewers etc etc. You get the picture. It's a hard and disgusting job but it has to be done by someone.
The thread is called "to be or not to be vegan" and I'm giving my opinion and view.
My personal opinion, based on what I've seen, heard, read etc, is that many vegans or the majority are women and hypersensitive about it. Saying how cruel it is to kill an animal for food but keep the other as a pet. (Pig vs Dog).
So what if it's cruel to kill animals for it? Our teeth are made for it, we have been doing it for millenia, our bodies are made to process food as well as vegetables or fruit.
And if I thrown in a jungle or island, I would hunt down animals and kill them for food. I won't enjoy the killing, but I will enjoy the eating. Because my tongue is made to find it delicious.
And I am not saying that to provoke. I'm saying that the reasons we do it are simple. And no, I don't find it immoral to eat meat. Call me cynical but raising animals for food is better than having them die in the wild by diseases or hunger or be eaten by other animals, or not be raised at all because it's ancestors were eaten.
What's the next step? Scolding our cats for killing birds or rats?
In the end, we are animals. Intelligent, civilized animals (most of the time) but still animals. With animalistic instincts, desires, fears and mentality.
And we've been animals far more than we've been civilized. It's hardwired inside our brain and it's not changing soon. It's like saying that your hardware changed because you updated your software. We still run on our old hardware, it's just that our software is updated for now.
By the way, doctors themselves suggest we eat a bit of everything, including meat. In different amounts but it's all necessary. Yes, there might be alternatives but they're neither as efficient nor ideal for our bodies. Nevermind that the various kinds of meat, provide different nutrients that are necessary for us.
To me the so called ethical veganism boils down to a very simple thing.
If you wouldn't eat meat to save your life, you're daft. If you would, you're a hypocrite. It's lose-lose.
It is an "ongoing" stream actually , where the rivers push you to some point , you can't get to decide on so much things. You may decide today whether to eat fruits or eggs , that only depends on the context of the current atmosphere you're in. It may not be logical for you to sometimes select the fruit option. I don't think also the people think so much about eating things. It's like a river I say. You can just steer a little left or right but that's it. You'll eat to survive anyway. No one can commit suicide. It's beyond impossible. Those who you THINK they did are not commiting suicides. They think they all are doing something else.
But for honesty's sake , I agree it is annoying to be in THIS river. Having forced to eat animals is not the only thing about it. The money , the authority , etc. Examples are plenty , when you're giving them for complaining, because it'll be a monologue. Like @alastair93 states. People will only be reading these complaints for time wasting.
If we speak about "how it should be"s , well then you wouldn't eat animals. The blood and the slaying are not good things. Fruits are more than enough for survival. As taking fruits of a plant don't kill the plant. But , can you find what you desire always in THIS river ? That's the topic today. Slaying some robots doesn't count as a problem when humans are slayed in wars.
I mean why don't you veganize about "money" also ? Money is harmful to the earner as well for a perspection ? Why won't you veganize about "governments" ? The speed of the river , that's why. You just wouldn't drown yourself by talking. It's not a lose-lose. The river's gotta end without you hitting a rock.
The river is full cr@p. But it doesn't stop people having a wild ride and surfing to the crest of the wave. (Reminds me of a bhaalspawn dream this...)
You can see negatives in everything if you look hard enough.
Start looking for positives. Such as grazing land provides opportunities for heathers and other short wildflowers to prosper, attracting larger herbivores, such as hares, attracting larger carnivores...
Not that everyone likes foxes...
Money is a sinful invention. But I hate the idea of waiting to grow potatoes so I can exchange them for carrots. Takes too long. I'm a teacher. I produce no valuable commodity at all that takes a tangible physical form! Money is the best way at present to exchange for my services. Although, I secretly dream of buying a computer using potatoes...
Money is a sinful invention. But I hate the idea of waiting to grow potatoes so I can exchange them for carrots.
Reasoning money as well may take you to the topmost point probably , those ones who cry in their Mercedes-Benz cars... It's impossible to see any reason what can be done if there were no money. Because it is not necessary , such thoughts in this world.
There is no dark. Dark do not exist. I am not politicizing about habits that consider other people. But I am making a point against those who attempt to use them. Because when you start acting strange ( in this case saying "I'm not going to use animal-derived products!" ) , it is going to act other people who 'respect' you also. Like Mold Touch in IWD , it's going to attempt jumping to another. You can not attempt to make something exist from nothing. I was living well enough before I even heard any "veganry".
It's the cultists' dream. All of them. They all like to say "Oh , but the reality is not like that , it's different"... Now there are wars all around the globe , because every one of them tries to see the world different , sometimes in the act of mean talk also. It's almost like they are not even killing each other , if you ask them. They will all say you something else. "I'm defending myself..." ? Lie. Fighting is the art of running away. Best fighter is the best avoider. Survivality probabilty %100 ; peace included , regrets excluded.
I'm sorry about still not having time to return to my previous amount of participation on this forum; so please forgive me for this rather hastily written answer...
I doubt @typo_tilly or @alnair will stop using computers and mobile phones just because they contain animal products within them.
In fact I still use them (being a mobile software developer would be quite hard otherwise...), although I've not been buying them since years ago (last mobile phone bought in 2009, last computer in 2006), relying instead on family members' hand-me-down ones (just install Linux on a old laptop and you'll at least double its lifespan) and/or company-provided ones.
I'm aware that it makes me a bit of a hypocrite, but I would like to have on record (once more) I never suggested that I'm perfect
Anyway, a possible rationalization for the continued use of products containing animal derivatives is as follows: while it's true that animal products are everywhere, it's important to note that most of them are only by-products -- sometimes even just a way to use production waste to make even more money -- of the true reasons of animal consumption, i.e. mainly food and clothing. If those were to die down, the by-products would not be economically sustainable anymore, so we'd surely find different (cruelty-free AND cheaper) materials for those other uses.
And virtually every medicine has to be tested in animals before it's used in humans. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to live life without using any modern medicine.
Seven or eight years and counting without not even as much as an aspirin. So far, so good.
We have the teeth we evolved with. As omnivores, we have incisors, canines and molars. Lions just have canines. Although I feel bad for them. Surely a lion would have fenines...
@alnair I can understand why you don't like hurting animals. I don't even like crushing bugs. I would just like to point out, however, that just because some people don't get sick so often, that doesn't mean that no one catches those diseases. Your assumed point is that it doesn't happen to you, which is great, but it does happen to many others. So many people would be as bad as dead without medicine that we use today.
Other than that, I see your point, though not enough to stop eating meat.
I'm sorry about still not having time to return to my previous amount of participation on this forum; so please forgive me for this rather hastily written answer...
I doubt @typo_tilly or @alnair will stop using computers and mobile phones just because they contain animal products within them.
In fact I still use them (being a mobile software developer would be quite hard otherwise...), although I've not been buying them since years ago (last mobile phone bought in 2009, last computer in 2006), relying instead on family members' hand-me-down ones (just install Linux on a old laptop and you'll at least double its lifespan) and/or company-provided ones.
I'm aware that it makes me a bit of a hypocrite, but I would like to have on record (once more) I never suggested that I'm perfect
Anyway, a possible rationalization for the continued use of products containing animal derivatives is as follows: while it's true that animal products are everywhere, it's important to note that most of them are only by-products -- sometimes even just a way to use production waste to make even more money -- of the true reasons of animal consumption, i.e. mainly food and clothing. If those were to die down, the by-products would not be economically sustainable anymore, so we'd surely find different (cruelty-free AND cheaper) materials for those other uses.
And virtually every medicine has to be tested in animals before it's used in humans. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to live life without using any modern medicine.
Seven or eight years and counting without not even as much as an aspirin. So far, so good.
That's kinda a red herring. The picture, that is. No one said we were carnivores. We are biologically omnivores, and we have the teeth of omnivores- that's just the way it is. I'm not saying it's an argument. Your teeth don't decide what you eat. You can eat pretty much whatever you want. That's what it means to be an omnivore. You get to pick.
Sorry, I can see your "good intentions" to just have a bit of fun here, so don't take any personal offence, please... but to me it's just a cruel reminder of the constant animal holocaust, of which slaughtering is just one awful aspect.
If we must use hyperbolic and inflammatory language then yes, it is and animal holocaust, and frankly I'm OK with that. I am willing to kill stuff to eat and I am willing to buy stuff someone else killed to eat. I really don't see the issue. How can you have a problem with stuff dying? Technically plants are alive and no one seems go have a problem with eating them. But if you don't want to eat animals for whatever reason the go for it. I'm not a cook and I'm not a farmer. It's not my problem.
As for the treatment of animals in farms.... That's another issue. I AM for pigs being able to turn around in their cages. The prospect of lab-grown meat eliminating the issue almost entirely also intrigues me.
I haven't read most of this huge thread, but has anybody already mentioned the countless innocent bacteria who are mercilessly slaughtered in the average person's body every day? Whether you eat meat or not, there will always be untold numbers of innocent living things that will die because of you. Personally, I just accept this fact and go on eating meat, but if someone else doesn't, then that's fine too I guess.
Yup. I think we are all fine doing what we want to do. @alnair is (please correct me) showing how little a footprint / impact you can leave on the world, concentrating especially on reducing the suffering of animals.
Personally, I believe in lowering my footprint in all possible ways. Using cyclic consumption principles that are sustainable.
So for me that means eating welsh lamb grown on mountain pastures because that is all that the land can be used for... And that keeps the grassland cropped, but still allows some places to overgrow and turn to meadow, giving rise to an increased range of biodiversity in plants, keeping the bees happy and place for hares, rabbits, and the predators that feed off them.
I keep a welshman in business. He doesn't sell his land to developers. Habitat protected.
I feel the concrete would be poured over all of Great Britain if the developers had there way. I feel so sad for the hundreds of acres of hunting forests sold to the house builders after fox hunting was banned.
So conflicted. In 1996 the bill was passed to ban hunting. I hated the hunting. It should have been a triumph, I felt it was one at the time. Instead the farmers were filmed putting poison down and setting traps, foxes are after all farmyard pests. Worse was the selling of land.
I Loved the forest. But they banned the hunting. They sold the forest. Forest destroyed. Foxes well and truly fed up and probably suffered worse... And its this mentality that rules me now. What IS going to happen if we decide together to do this...
If @alnair bought a new phone he could recycle his old phone. I don't believe this only done in England. The parts are either used in new phones or refurbished and sent to developing countries. This goes for any electrical appliance. Even the battery acid is reused and reclaimed. The newer the handset the more recyclable it is... So... I don't think @alnair should feel bad aout having a new phone. He would be inputting into the economy if he did, thus nurturing productivity, which in turn, eventually, by jumping through a few hoops, to producing the research required to make a greener and more pleasant world, where we can have foxes and forests...
To me the so called ethical veganism boils down to a very simple thing.
If you wouldn't eat meat to save your life, you're daft. If you would, you're a hypocrite. It's lose-lose.
@FinneousPJ Yeah, this argument doesn't really make any sense. Ethical veganism is the belief that it's wrong to eat meat as I understand it. So, what you're saying here is that if there are hypothetical situations where one would do something, then they can't possibly believe that something to be wrong in any situation.
I mean, I think that stealing is wrong, but I guess that if I wouldn't steal to save my life then I'm daft and if I would then I'm a hypocrite according to your view, right? Not sure what to say about this.
@jaysl659 I guess it's my weird relativist world view, but I try not to think of things as "right" or "wrong". That's why I find such blanket statements as "eating meat is wrong" daft in general.
Comments
I'm not sure how anyone could consistently be a vegan in the modern age. Animal products are used in ways you wouldn't even imagine. For example, gelatine is used for electroplating metals, various kinds of polymer development, latex development, photograph development, shampoos, etc. etc. And just about any chemical, fabric or paint in your home will have been allergy/toxicology tested on animals.
To me, it seems very arbitrary to decide not to eat animal products, while they're used all around us for non-consumption purposes.
And virtually every medicine has to be tested in animals before it's used in humans. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to live life without using any modern medicine.
http://m.deliciousliving.com/blog/10-things-you-thought-were-vegan-arent
I doubt @typo_tilly or @alnair will stop using computers and mobile phones just because they contain animal products within them.
Gelatin is a pervasive product found nearly everywhere. It is literally the cheap glue holding everything together.
Never thought the books I read were non-vegan until @alastair93 's post. Unfortunately he gets an insightful, not that the content was happy reading for me...
First, I agree that animals could be treated better before they are slaughtered but that is pretty much it.
Secondly, being vegan is unhealthy for your body, your child's body perhaps and really, it's overreaction and hypersensitivity.
I mean, if these were different times, even a century before or two, you will get laughed at hardcore. And if you had to survive on your own, well you wouldn't.
Your body would become weak and your immune system as well.
There are substitutes but those are unnecessary.
I mean, even druids in DnD are not vegans because hunting and eating meat is natural.
People going crazy about the cruelness of killing animals, seem REALLY pampered to me and hypersensitive.
The type of people that would faint if they saw some blood or saw a documentary about wild life.
And the worst are those that try to turn vegan their exclusively carnivore pets like cats.
By the way, I love many animals and especially cats and dogs. I love playing druids in games as I'm an animal lover and I love nature.
But that doesn't mean I go hippie on everything. We have been eating meat before we could talk.
We are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores.
Eating eggs, all sorts of meats, milk or other animal products is healthy if done in moderation.
But this modern craze about veganism earns a facepalm from me, really.
Your (unsourced) assertions that eating meat and dairy is healthy and eating a vegan diet is unhealthy are pretty meaningless, take a look through the thread and do some research if you'd like to make an informed argument to that end (reputable sources would help). Also, your appeals to history are pointless. Just because people would have been resistant to an idea two hundred years ago doesn't make the idea wrong. You might as well tell me that you don't need to live in a world with antibacterial sterilization methods because your great-great-great grandpappy got on fine without believing in germs.
People have done innumerable terrible things throughout history under slogans asserting that progressives are just being ridiculous, but the course of history shows a trend of the theories of social progressives being accepted into common practice over time. Just think of all the progressive movements throughout history and the arguments used against them by conservative apologists. I don't know if it's ethically wrong to eat meat, but to say that you know for sure that it isn't wrong (not that you did, but if you were to) is just an unfounded assertion. If animals deserve even the tiniest bit of respect, then that respect is being violated by the meat industry as it exists right now; and if you want to be a realist, then you need to accept the reality of the world we live in: you personally don't need to eat meat to survive, that's the reality. Also, we're moral agents, we have a responsibility to consider the morality of our actions, so you need to consider whether or not it's morally acceptable to end the life of another living thing (or thousands of them) when doing so is not necessary for your survival.
I'm not being judgmental of whether or not you eat meat by the way, just your assertions about it. I'm on and off with it myself these days, but when I eat meat I know where it came from and I accept that I may be doing something morally wrong.
For the record, I know full well where meat comes from, and I consume it with glee.
For some bizarre reason, I find raw meat very appetising; especially the big carcasses hanging from butcher shop windows. I also love watching meat being prepared on cooking shows from the whole dead animal. Rather than make me squeamish, that kinda stuff makes me hungry.
I was a vegetarian for 5 years, and people eating meat around me didn't offend or upset me. I was just fantasising about their burgers.
My point is, that we as humans are scientifically omnivores. We have freaking fangs. We process meat great and don't vomit it out.
And yes, if I HAD to kill an animal to survive, I would do it without question.
You are right that it would be hard but it's just as hard to do other jobs, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.
Like the various cleaning services or cleaning the sewers etc etc. You get the picture.
It's a hard and disgusting job but it has to be done by someone.
The thread is called "to be or not to be vegan" and I'm giving my opinion and view.
My personal opinion, based on what I've seen, heard, read etc, is that many vegans or the majority are women and hypersensitive about it.
Saying how cruel it is to kill an animal for food but keep the other as a pet. (Pig vs Dog).
So what if it's cruel to kill animals for it? Our teeth are made for it, we have been doing it for millenia, our bodies are made to process food as well as vegetables or fruit.
And if I thrown in a jungle or island, I would hunt down animals and kill them for food. I won't enjoy the killing, but I will enjoy the eating. Because my tongue is made to find it delicious.
And I am not saying that to provoke. I'm saying that the reasons we do it are simple.
And no, I don't find it immoral to eat meat.
Call me cynical but raising animals for food is better than having them die in the wild by diseases or hunger or be eaten by other animals, or not be raised at all because it's ancestors were eaten.
What's the next step? Scolding our cats for killing birds or rats?
In the end, we are animals. Intelligent, civilized animals (most of the time) but still animals. With animalistic instincts, desires, fears and mentality.
And we've been animals far more than we've been civilized. It's hardwired inside our brain and it's not changing soon.
It's like saying that your hardware changed because you updated your software.
We still run on our old hardware, it's just that our software is updated for now.
By the way, doctors themselves suggest we eat a bit of everything, including meat. In different amounts but it's all necessary.
Yes, there might be alternatives but they're neither as efficient nor ideal for our bodies.
Nevermind that the various kinds of meat, provide different nutrients that are necessary for us.
If you wouldn't eat meat to save your life, you're daft. If you would, you're a hypocrite. It's lose-lose.
But for honesty's sake , I agree it is annoying to be in THIS river. Having forced to eat animals is not the only thing about it. The money , the authority , etc. Examples are plenty , when you're giving them for complaining, because it'll be a monologue. Like @alastair93 states. People will only be reading these complaints for time wasting.
If we speak about "how it should be"s , well then you wouldn't eat animals. The blood and the slaying are not good things. Fruits are more than enough for survival. As taking fruits of a plant don't kill the plant. But , can you find what you desire always in THIS river ? That's the topic today. Slaying some robots doesn't count as a problem when humans are slayed in wars.
I mean why don't you veganize about "money" also ? Money is harmful to the earner as well for a perspection ? Why won't you veganize about "governments" ? The speed of the river , that's why. You just wouldn't drown yourself by talking. It's not a lose-lose. The river's gotta end without you hitting a rock.
You can see negatives in everything if you look hard enough.
Start looking for positives. Such as grazing land provides opportunities for heathers and other short wildflowers to prosper, attracting larger herbivores, such as hares, attracting larger carnivores...
Not that everyone likes foxes...
Money is a sinful invention. But I hate the idea of waiting to grow potatoes so I can exchange them for carrots. Takes too long. I'm a teacher. I produce no valuable commodity at all that takes a tangible physical form! Money is the best way at present to exchange for my services. Although, I secretly dream of buying a computer using potatoes...
There is no dark. Dark do not exist. I am not politicizing about habits that consider other people. But I am making a point against those who attempt to use them. Because when you start acting strange ( in this case saying "I'm not going to use animal-derived products!" ) , it is going to act other people who 'respect' you also. Like Mold Touch in IWD , it's going to attempt jumping to another. You can not attempt to make something exist from nothing. I was living well enough before I even heard any "veganry".
It's the cultists' dream. All of them. They all like to say "Oh , but the reality is not like that , it's different"... Now there are wars all around the globe , because every one of them tries to see the world different , sometimes in the act of mean talk also. It's almost like they are not even killing each other , if you ask them. They will all say you something else. "I'm defending myself..." ? Lie. Fighting is the art of running away. Best fighter is the best avoider. Survivality probabilty %100 ; peace included , regrets excluded.
I'm sorry about still not having time to return to my previous amount of participation on this forum; so please forgive me for this rather hastily written answer... In fact I still use them (being a mobile software developer would be quite hard otherwise...), although I've not been buying them since years ago (last mobile phone bought in 2009, last computer in 2006), relying instead on family members' hand-me-down ones (just install Linux on a old laptop and you'll at least double its lifespan) and/or company-provided ones.
I'm aware that it makes me a bit of a hypocrite, but I would like to have on record (once more) I never suggested that I'm perfect
Anyway, a possible rationalization for the continued use of products containing animal derivatives is as follows: while it's true that animal products are everywhere, it's important to note that most of them are only by-products -- sometimes even just a way to use production waste to make even more money -- of the true reasons of animal consumption, i.e. mainly food and clothing. If those were to die down, the by-products would not be economically sustainable anymore, so we'd surely find different (cruelty-free AND cheaper) materials for those other uses. Seven or eight years and counting without not even as much as an aspirin. So far, so good. Oh my sweet Lord Ao, really? The canine teeth argument? Still?
(Click on the image, or here, for the photogallery "9 reasons your canine teeth don't make you a meat eater"
We have the teeth we evolved with. As omnivores, we have incisors, canines and molars. Lions just have canines. Although I feel bad for them. Surely a lion would have fenines...
Other than that, I see your point, though not enough to stop eating meat.
(Have I posted on this thread yet? Hmmm....)
As for my opinion on the issue If we must use hyperbolic and inflammatory language then yes, it is and animal holocaust, and frankly I'm OK with that. I am willing to kill stuff to eat and I am willing to buy stuff someone else killed to eat.
I really don't see the issue. How can you have a problem with stuff dying? Technically plants are alive and no one seems go have a problem with eating them.
But if you don't want to eat animals for whatever reason the go for it. I'm not a cook and I'm not a farmer. It's not my problem.
As for the treatment of animals in farms.... That's another issue. I AM for pigs being able to turn around in their cages. The prospect of lab-grown meat eliminating the issue almost entirely also intrigues me.
I'll probably regret getting in on this, won't I?
Personally, I believe in lowering my footprint in all possible ways. Using cyclic consumption principles that are sustainable.
So for me that means eating welsh lamb grown on mountain pastures because that is all that the land can be used for... And that keeps the grassland cropped, but still allows some places to overgrow and turn to meadow, giving rise to an increased range of biodiversity in plants, keeping the bees happy and place for hares, rabbits, and the predators that feed off them.
I keep a welshman in business. He doesn't sell his land to developers. Habitat protected.
I feel the concrete would be poured over all of Great Britain if the developers had there way. I feel so sad for the hundreds of acres of hunting forests sold to the house builders after fox hunting was banned.
So conflicted. In 1996 the bill was passed to ban hunting. I hated the hunting. It should have been a triumph, I felt it was one at the time. Instead the farmers were filmed putting poison down and setting traps, foxes are after all farmyard pests. Worse was the selling of land.
I Loved the forest. But they banned the hunting. They sold the forest. Forest destroyed. Foxes well and truly fed up and probably suffered worse... And its this mentality that rules me now. What IS going to happen if we decide together to do this...
If @alnair bought a new phone he could recycle his old phone. I don't believe this only done in England. The parts are either used in new phones or refurbished and sent to developing countries. This goes for any electrical appliance. Even the battery acid is reused and reclaimed. The newer the handset the more recyclable it is... So... I don't think @alnair should feel bad aout having a new phone. He would be inputting into the economy if he did, thus nurturing productivity, which in turn, eventually, by jumping through a few hoops, to producing the research required to make a greener and more pleasant world, where we can have foxes and forests...
I mean, I think that stealing is wrong, but I guess that if I wouldn't steal to save my life then I'm daft and if I would then I'm a hypocrite according to your view, right? Not sure what to say about this.