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Why I am unhappy with Hexxat *spoiler*

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  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    Wayniac said:

    I feel like a lot of negativity is floating around in this thread with all of the posts telling the devs that having an option would be better... etc.

    Nah, not negativity, just a bunch of passionate opinions! :D

    Read the posts - most people agree that Hexxat is an okay addition. Some even really like her. But then there's a bunch of us who would've loved to be able to make a choice. Given said choice would have elevated the entire quest to a new level.

    Think about it - there's no treasure in there; the 'loot' is the NPC herself (whether Clara or Hexx)! The devs could've milked this for all its worth, with both Hexx and Clara trying to persuade the party to their side! I don't care how old/powerful Hexx is, she'd get murdered by a 5-man gang. Clara as well, that goes without saying.

    Personally, I think it would've made for an epic scene, not all that dissimilar to the ME2 one where you have to choose between Samara/Morinth. Only here, the two girls would try to persuade you through dialogue. I mean, come on, something like this can be implemented with little to no effort - it's just a bunch of text!

    When Hexx revealed her hand, I was expecting Clara (who should've snapped out of her spell by now) to start petitioning me to save her while Hexx started threatning her and trying to get my PC and his party on her side. It would've been epic!

    Instead, I had to watch as Clara gets murdered, and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it. Killing Hexx is pointless, since it doesn't bring back Clara. If Hexx had some kind of unique item she drops, then it might've been worth it, but since she doesn't, it isn't.

    tl;dr: an unsatisfying resolution to an otherwise well-crafted story arc full of dramatic tension





    booinyoureyesSir_Murderhobo
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    Well. if the devs wanted to make a Clara-dlc they'd have an easier start no? The portrait is ready, no need to look for a voice actor, the character is itroduced into the game.

    Tis' a very interesting idea.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Hexxat is a poor man's Valen.

    Ironically enough, the things you praise about Valen have been the source of many, many complaints over the years - which just goes to show how much subjective opinion goes into evaluating NPCs.

    Hexxat and Valen couldn't be more different, both in terms of storyline and in terms of how they play. Whether one is better than the other depends on what you're looking for - personally, I find Valen more comparable to Solaufein in that she's both ridiculously overpowered and she actually reduces the player's agency by making certain plot-based choices for you (ie: the bit with the dragon eggs). An interesting experiment, perhaps, but not a candidate for a serious playthrough.
    jackjackMessibooinyoureyes
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited November 2013
    Also: the comparison to Samara/Morinth is superficial at best, since the player has much more access to Samara before her loyalty mission - you fight alongside her, you talk to her, you listen to her stories about her kids and her life as a justicar. When Morinth makes her offer, she's the unknown quantity, since literally the only things you know about her are what Samara told you (and if you stick with Samara, she later reveals that Morinth was lying/wrong about everything anyway).

    With Clara... I mean, I'm really trying to understand what it is about her that has everyone here so enthralled. @Ayiekie mentions wanting to know more about tertiary characters, and that's fine - but there's a big difference between saying "I'd like to know more about Kryll" and "I'd like Kryll to be a party member because choices."

    @TvrtkoSvrdlar: I completely agree with you that bilateral communication between devs and players is on the rise, and that it's how things should be done; that doesn't mean every idea offered by the players is automatically a good one. Insofar as this concept is concerned - choosing Clara over Hexxat - I just don't think it's worth pursuing.
    Post edited by shawne on
  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    edited November 2013
    "We need a thief NPC in BG2:EE!" Topic
    December 2012:
    DarkDogg said:


    m.b. Valen? :-)

    Evil assassin human (vampire)

    Soooo close I was a year ago =)
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    edited November 2013
    shawne said:

    Also: the comparison to Samara/Morinth is superficial at best, since the player has much more access to Samara before her loyalty mission - you fight alongside her, you talk to her, you listen to her stories about her kids and her life as a justicar. When Morinth makes her offer, she's the unknown quantity, since literally the only things you know about her are what Samara have told you (and if you stick with Samara, she later reveals that Morinth was lying/wrong about everything anyway).

    With Clara... I mean, I'm really trying to understand what it is about her that has everyone here so enthralled. @Ayiekie mentions wanting to know more about tertiary characters, and that's fine - but there's a big difference between saying "I'd like to know more about Kryll" and "I'd like Kryll to be a party member because choices."

    The reason is that you can have Clara for a while in your team. She fights along side, that is enough from a RP perspective to bond with her, even if she is just a bit more than a drone.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @jankiel: But that's exactly what she is! I mean, by all means, let's give Clara the Red Letter Media test - what can you tell me about her without describing either her physical appearance or her profession/role in the story?

    We're talking about a character who is under mental domination for 99.9% of the time she's in your party; people are getting excited about the possibilities because she could be just about anything at this point. But once the devs decide on a specific storyline, and flesh her out in a particular way (since she can't keep being a mindless zombie), it won't - it can't - be met with everyone's approval.

    Also: let's not forget that Hexxat represents the only same-sex romance for female characters; does Clara fulfill that role too?
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    shawne said:

    @jankiel: But that's exactly what she is! I mean, by all means, let's give Clara the Red Letter Media test - what can you tell me about her without describing either her physical appearance or her profession/role in the story?

    We're talking about a character who is under mental domination for 99.9% of the time she's in your party; people are getting excited about the possibilities because she could be just about anything at this point. But once the devs decide on a specific storyline, and flesh her out in a particular way (since she can't keep being a mindless zombie), it won't - it can't - be met with everyone's approval.

    Also: let's not forget that Hexxat represents the only same-sex romance for female characters; does Clara fulfill that role too?

    I'm just saying the fact that she is part of the party makes people want to get to know more of her. You can have her on for quite some time before going to Dragomir's tomb. That leaves a lot of free RP perspective I think.

    Fighting alongside someone forges bonds. Besides that, Minsc is mental yet so many love him ;-)
    EmmiSir_Murderhobo
  • byrne20byrne20 Member Posts: 503
    I for one would be more than happy if the developers decided to release DLC as Clara. Don't get me wrong l do like hexxat a lot! But the idea of saving Clara and finding out more about her appealed to me more. I would of happily kept her even with those stats. At the end of the day she would of filled the thief role I needed and she was interesting. I know we didn't actually find out much about her but that's the point. I was invested in helping her!
    jankielEmmi
  • byrne20byrne20 Member Posts: 503
    I mean just putting an idea out there but after you save Clara from Hexxat and she is free from whatever form of mind control she was under she could be left confused with very little memory of who she is. Her Story could centered around finding out who she is and helping her find a new place in the world!
    jankielEmmi
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    shawne said:

    Also: the comparison to Samara/Morinth is superficial at best, since the player has much more access to Samara before her loyalty mission - you fight alongside her, you talk to her, you listen to her stories about her kids and her life as a justicar. When Morinth makes her offer, she's the unknown quantity, since literally the only things you know about her are what Samara told you (and if you stick with Samara, she later reveals that Morinth was lying/wrong about everything anyway).

    Also, you have to completely insane to take Morinth since she just tried to kill you, is addicted to murder and offers no advantage over her mother. Even full renegade Sheps should take Samara over Morinth if they're even somewhat rational.

    Hexxat's opening scene already makes her better than Morinth, to be honest (and I'm not a Bioware hater).
    shawne said:


    With Clara... I mean, I'm really trying to understand what it is about her that has everyone here so enthralled. @Ayiekie mentions wanting to know more about tertiary characters, and that's fine - but there's a big difference between saying "I'd like to know more about Kryll" and "I'd like Kryll to be a party member because choices."

    Point of order: I didn't say recruiting Clara is necessary. I'd be fine with a storyline where you don't; realistically, though, I expect she'll be added as a recruitable character if any further work is done with her (since other people would want it, her class is still valuable, and her stats and portrait already exist).

    And I already told you: people are enthralled because she's a cute girl. :)

    That actually is probably the main part of it, though the other things I mentioned play into it too. More seriously, she also offers a Road Not Travelled, an obvious possibility that the game doesn't allow you to pursue, which tends to draw attention. I've always been very irritated you can't save Xzar or Faldorn, either (and the game actively tries to prevent you from even avenging Xzar, though it's technically possible), but that's content Beamdog can't touch so I don't bother complaining about it.
    shawne said:


    @TvrtkoSvrdlar: I completely agree with you that bilateral communication between devs and players is on the rise, and that it's how things should be done; that doesn't mean every idea offered by the players is automatically a good one. Insofar as this concept is concerned - choosing Clara over Hexxat - I just don't think it's worth pursuing.

    That's for Beamdog to decide, but if enough people are willing to spend money on it (note: I am not saying that is necessarily the case), then it is obviously worth pursuing as it would make money and please a large chunk of the fanbase.
  • DommiDommi Member Posts: 1
    I'm not a native English. My apologies for the future mistakes.

    Well, I haven't read all the posts of this thread but here my two cents :

    Clara > Hexxat. I just see Hexxat like a random evil vampire. There is an interest with her quest and I applaud the twist, objectively. But I don't like. Clara is more interesting ...
    No, let me rephrase : I have more questions about Clara than I have about Hexxat. And I find the concept of a companion who is simple-minded great : there is way to help her ?

    I don't believe that Beamdog will change this (we have mods for that) but here one more voice who prefer Clara to Hexxat.

    In addition, she is cute.
  • Archon79Archon79 Member Posts: 9
    aVENGER said:

    22longZ said:

    My point is I liked the "fake" Hexxat simply more and I wasn't able to chose.

    So basically, you would like an option to save the confused girl and have her join up instead of Hexxat and become a full fledged party member.

    Just out of curiosity, how do other players feel about this?

    I agree, not really a fan of the 'real' Hexxat, but as she is the only thief kinda stuck with her.

    Emmi
  • OtherworldlyOtherworldly Member Posts: 13
    edited November 2013
    I could care less about Clara, but I'm really disappointed in Hexxat. Sorry, I know some people like her, but so far I just keep thinking I want to just drop her. It feels funny to keep making excuses to keep someone in your group, I felt the same way about Cernd and eventually dropped him. And I know why I don't like her, It's because she's a NE Vampire, and It just doesn't mesh up with the group I'm playing with. Not to mention I'm tired of the whole vampires are awesome thing.

    So if Clara was made more interesting and less evil vampire I would welcome her, she's not necessary but hey if someone likes her why deny them. At least her portrait is kinda cute, not to say Hexxat's is bad either.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    22longZ said:

    I appreciate every post you make shawne. But it seems to me like you are opposing this idea because you perceive it as an attempt to replace Hexxat with Clara. This is not what this idea is all about. I am, and like many others, fine with Hexxat. She is a nice addition to the game. It is just about a choice I would like to make. You may like Hexxat more than a full fledged Clara and that's okay.

    The issue I'm having here is that sometimes, it's the lack of choice that serves the story best. This is a very tricky thing to work through, especially in RPGs, but every now and then someone talks about wanting to save Thane in "Mass Effect 3" - a character who is terminally ill, whose storyline practically requires his death - and the argument is always the same: "I want to have that choice. I should have that option."

    Choice is a fantastic mechanism in RPGs. It makes video game stories all the more compelling and dynamic. (No spoilers, but Dorn's quest is a perfect example of this.) But sometimes adding variables to a storyline detracts from it. Clara's death is an establishing character moment for Hexxat - it tells you something about her. Sacrificing that (as well as the character) for someone who has no personality, no history, and no purpose within the context of the game just seems pointless to me. I mean, really, the argument for saving Clara is that Good PCs wouldn't just let her die... but when you meet her at the Copper Coronet, she registers as Neutral Evil, for crying out loud. If you're not going to go slaughter an entire building with Dorn because it's something your Paladin wouldn't do, then you shouldn't be in Dragomir's Tomb anyway.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    I don't consider my character to have read the character sheet of everyone in the party. She clearly needed help, so my cavalier helped her. When Hexxat killed her, he told her off for it and then destroyed her to avenge an innocent girl's death. I am fine with that, and I think it was a believable and reasonable thing for my LG character to do.

    The argument for saving Clara is simply that it offers a new, hopefully compelling plotline in doing so. It isn't a knock on the original plotline, as far as I'm concerned. I liked Hexxat so much I've returned to my evil playthrough so I can have a much less abbreviated acquaintance with her.
  • KharasKharas Member Posts: 150
    I really like the idea about being able to save Clara? from Hexxat. My paladin main char agree to help a confused woman in a bar.. and just stand by when he see this confused woman standing beside a vampire?

    Being able to have her as a NPC would be great, the more the merrier.. But the most important thing for me is to be able to save her...
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Ayiekie said:

    Also, you have to completely insane to take Morinth since she just tried to kill you, is addicted to murder and offers no advantage over her mother. Even full renegade Sheps should take Samara over Morinth if they're even somewhat rational.

    Well... to be fair, there is a certain logic if you're a full Renegade, because Samara openly threatens to kill you - being a Justicar, she'd be obligated to put you down and she's only willing to hold off on that until you take down the Collectors. At least Morinth is more "predictable" - she's only a threat to you if you indulge her.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    She openly threatens to kill you once the current crisis is done, yeah. But Morinth is trying to kill you when you meet her (with the aid of mind control). She is also, as I said, shown to be addicted to murder. You might not want Samara around, but letting Morinth live is just completely foolhardy and hard to justify no matter how renegade you are, IMO.
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    I'm not sure what everyone's point about "Not knowing much about Clara" is. You know little to nothing about any of the NPCs in the first BG and everyone loves those characters.

    I think the idea of being able to save Clara as a good party makes sense. The whole "her character sheet says she is NE" argument is very weak. When you meet someone, do they hand you a business card with their alignment on it? No, the character sheet is something I as a player see, my CHARNAME has no knowledge of it. He/she only knows that this girl seems to need help. So even if you just had the option to save her and only got a "thank you" from her as she wandered off it would be good IMO. Making her a full fledged party member, even better.
    AkihikojankielJuliusBorisov
  • TimTim Member Posts: 38
    I would also sign in for "get a chance to save Clara". I made the quest in Dragomirs Tomb to help this girl out, then she was killed from a freakin vampire. So I killed the vampire. :D I saw no other consistent roleplaying solution as a good party.
    Delvarian
  • AkihikoAkihiko Member Posts: 213
    LiamEsler said:

    What I find interesting is that at no point did anyone actually get to know Clara. Clara is a mind-controlled automaton at this point, and any personality attributed to her isn't actually hers -- apart from the very end, arguably. That was Clara's voice, her portrait, and her skills, and little else.

    At that point, sir, I give you an incredibly cheesy line from an incredibly cheesy game, Wild Arms 2: "The strongest bonds are formed in battle." Clara has helped me fight off trolls, illusionist gnomes, slavers, wild forest creatures, a powerful enemy group, we're about to take down a beholder, and soon we'll be going after a dragon. So, when I see her killed, I don't think "well, she had no personality anyway. Open slot in my party, want in?" Nor do I think "You bastard! She was my favorite character, you die now!" I think "You just murdered a very valuable member of my party. Now, I'm gonna offensive spin and shove my Sword of Chaos so far up your butt that you're gonna wind up lobotomized."
    DelvarianJuliusBorisov
  • Ironmancal2131Ironmancal2131 Member Posts: 23
    When I did her first quest, I was able to pick up the other Hexxat, as well. Was she supposed to die?
  • AkihikoAkihiko Member Posts: 213

    When I did her first quest, I was able to pick up the other Hexxat, as well. Was she supposed to die?

    Yep. That's a known bug, and it could cause issues, so you shouldn't take her.
  • Ironmancal2131Ironmancal2131 Member Posts: 23
    Ah, ok. I was playing a pally, so I just reloaded an earlier save before I accepted her quest. I couldn't justify to myself going there just for treasure hunting. I just wanted to see the twist, and it certainly caught me offguard.
    Akihiko
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    aVENGER said:

    22longZ said:

    My point is I liked the "fake" Hexxat simply more and I wasn't able to chose.

    So basically, you would like an option to save the confused girl and have her join up instead of Hexxat and become a full fledged party member.

    Just out of curiosity, how do other players feel about this?

    infinitely better the current hexxat is ok but I doubt ill ever use her

    Emmi
  • rorikonrorikon Member Posts: 105
    Although I like Hexxat, and thought the twist was great, I still think there should be an option to save Clara. Obviously that would mean missing out on a bunch of new content, but anyone trying to RP a good character will be missing out on that stuff anyway. I'd personally be happy with Clara as a limited Baeloth-type NPC included in a patch, but if there was a full DLC I'd probably get it.

    The cloak thing IS a bit annoying though. Couldn't we just have her stats automatically drop in outside daylight areas?
    jankiel
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    edited November 2013
    Shin said:

    Hexxat is a poor man's Valen.

    Valen was/is about 10x more powerful, and her character leaves you with the feeling that you're traveling with a wild animal that could tear out your throat at any moment. Weimer did an amazing job with her. Hexxat, while not a bad companion, just doesn't have that same 'feel' to her - she's bland, monotonous, predictable, terribly tryhard, and, quite frankly, boring.

    I don't agree with this impression at all. The fact that Hexxat is smart about what she wants to accomplish, isn't totally overpowered, doesn't attract undue attention to herself and doesn't make the player's decisions for him/her are all things that make her more acceptable and more refined as a companion. All of those are also reasons I could never stand using Valen for very long.

    Creating an overpowered, blatant and uncompromising NPC doesn't take a very delicate writer. I'd call Hexxat a grown-up man's Valen if anything.
    I'm ok with people having a different opinion, as most arguments boil down to subjective bias in the end, but in this case, you're objectively wrong.

    Let's analyze a bit...

    Hexx is a vampire. As a vampire, and a joinable PC no less, one would expect her to be able to pull her weight in fights. One would also expect her to come with a moderate number of powerful and unique abilities, since her vampiric status is what seperates and elevates her above all the other NPCs vying for that spot in your party. Hexx has a few weak, nonsensical abilities, and a cloak you need to fiddle with in order to play her efficiently. The former are mere distractions, the latter a detriment. Power-gamey characters aren't for everyone, and I accept and understand that, but if you're advertising yourself as a creature of myth and legend, and you're desperately trying to paint this picture about your predatory nature, you better be able to deliver the goods! Hexx doesn't. She's *WEAK*. She's no better than any run-of-the-mill thief. And her transparent attempts to portray herself as anything but are cringe-worthy.

    Personality-wise, she's terrible. Valen was/is a caged animal whose actions speak louder than words. You know that "show, don't tell" that creative writing teachers do their best to drum into your head? Hexx has none of it. She harps on about how dangerous she is (seriously, read some of her text and listen to the one-liners she fires off when you select/move her), but her attempts at convincing the party of her mysterious and unpredictable nature both fall flat on its faces (I blame both the bland voice actress and the uninspired writing). Valen? She kills stuff. Disobeys you and outright *MURDERS* things in front of you. Not everyone's cup of tea, but you have to admit that girl has *SUBSTANCE*! She's her own person, and is only traveling with you because it currently suits her. You're very aware (and quite often viscerally reminded!) that she can and will rip out your throat if your actions displease her. And the best part is that she doesn't keep talking about how badass she is - she *SHOWS* you! Her silence is more ominous for it, and fits perfectly into the silent, stealthy, unpredictable killer that a vampire ought to be.

    You called Valen 'overpowered, blatant, and uncomprimising'. Fair enough, I agree. she's all of that. But those aspects are a part of her character, and make her what she is. Like you, I wouldn't tolerate such behavior from *all* of my partymembers, but Valen gets a free pass *because* she's all that, and more; she's UNIQUE. Her actions fit her character perfectly. Hexx, on the other hand? Bland. Boring. Obedient. Underpowered. She reminds me more of some confused highschool girl trying to fit in by proving how tough she is, than an ancient, ancestral evil that's accidentally been let loose on the world. And I think that's a shame, because her portrait is =!AMAZING!=, and the one thing I absolutely *LOVE* about her! A pity neither the writing nor the voice actress do it justice. The portrait perfectly captures that haughty, amused mastery that a powerful creature would display when dealing with its lessers. Hexx, as a character, isn't masterful, she's certainly not aloof, and there's absolutely nothing dangerous or predatory about her. She's about as exciting as a cup of white coffee... sans the sprinkles!

    The reason I want Clara is twofold; one, I'd like to have that choice for my good- and neutral-aligned parties; and two, I find Hexxat about as exciting as watching paint dry. Seriously, she's *BLAND* - that's my biggest pet peeve with her. She's not her own person - she's a walking, talking trap-disarmament utility the devs put in to fill the thief slot in your roster. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again: technically speaking, Hexxat isn't "bad" by any stretch of the imagination; she's somewhat useful at what she does (though, for a vampire, she fails abysmally in combat), she's semi-successful in piquing my interest (though that has more to do with my curiosity regarding her quest chain, than anything else in direct relation to her), and her tryhard quips leave the rest of the party in stitches, which is worth something as well, I guess.

    But a powerful, interesting, unique vampire she is not.

    Come to think of it, I think I'll go and DL Valen.

    My evil party needs a *real* bad girl.

    3:)

    kamuizinbooinyoureyesSulla
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