If it were a cast-on-target spell, it would break the game.
Hardly. It would make summons and other party members more difficult to kill but it could still be dispelled and summons could still be killed via slaying or simply getting through the skins (or other magic).
If it were a cast-on-target spell, it would break the game.
Hardly. It would make summons and other party members more difficult to kill but it could still be dispelled and summons could still be killed via slaying or simply getting through the skins (or other magic).
In the hands of the player, this would become very powerful. Basically the party tank wont ever get damage by physical attacks.
If it were a cast-on-target spell, it would break the game.
Hardly. It would make summons and other party members more difficult to kill but it could still be dispelled and summons could still be killed via slaying or simply getting through the skins (or other magic).
In the hands of the player, this would become very powerful. Basically the party tank wont ever get damage by physical attacks.
Powerful sure (hence 5/5) but hardly game breaking (I'm not advocating for it for the record). On hit effects still bypass Stoneskin. So if you are fighting an enemy that stuns, confuses, level drains, or ability drains (including mindflayers) if they "hit" you it still counts as a hit. So sure if not dispelled it stops physical damage but there are plenty of enemies that it would only provide partial protection.
@bbear : actually in solo, improved invisibility makes you completely immune to mages which are unable to see through invisibility. The reason for this is that they cannot cast their aoe on the floor. They need a target to do it. Therefore, if you have no summons, they will just sit there, waiting to be killed.
Overall, between stoneskins and improved invis, the level 4 arcane casting makes you immune to 95% of ennemies in SOA. This is why other spells at this level are irrelevant for a solo char (F/M type)
For a pure arcane caster (sorc), you need an offensive option. Spiderspawn gives you an efficient way to kill most groups with casting 2 level 2 spell (webx2) and 2 level 4 spells (spiderspawnx2). No other spell at that level or below can kill as efficiently.
Level 5 Top Tiers: -Breach: 5/5 -Animate Dead: 4.5/5 (wait until level 15) -Lower Resistance: 4.5/5 (enables dragon slaying at low level) -Spell Immunity: 4/5
Mid Tiers: -Cone of Cold: 3.5/5 (powerful spell but use wand; most likely destroy loot) -Domination: 3.5/5 (target saves -2) -Sunfire: 3.5/5 (no longer ignores MR) -Chaos: 3/5 (area effect save -4) -Cloudkill: 3/5 (wand version casts at speed 1 and ignores MR) -Feeblemind: 3/5 (target saves -2) -Oracle: 3/5 -Protection from Normal Weapons: 3/5 -Shadow Door: 3/5 -Spell Shield: 3/5 -Minor Spell Turning: 2.5/5 (overprice for this level)
Low Tiers: -Monster Summoning III: 2/5 -Conjure Lesser Air Elemental: 2/5 (immune to normal weapons) -Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental: 2/5 (immune to normal weapons) -Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental: 2/5 (immune to normal weapons) -Hold Monster: 2/5 (Dryad from Call Woodland Beings gets this for free, save -2) -Phantom Blade: 1.5/5 -Protection from Acid: 1.5/5 -Protection from Electricity: 1.5/5
I'd rate Spell Immunity a 4.5/5. Various enemy mages have made very life difficult for my charnames with their Spell Immunity: Abjuration (and to a lesser extent Divination). Using this spell against them ought to be equally frustrating for one's enemies. Lack of spell slots during the largest portion of the game makes me use it less frequently than I probably should. But that's because Breach (5/5) is the most important spell in the game for me. Of the midtier spells I'd rate Chaos (4/5 thanks to the great save penalty and AoE) a bit higher. I think I'd even promote it to top tier status.
Idk if it's just my game but Chaos has some really weird interaction on enemies compared to when my party is affected by it. They do the standard random behavior where they wander around and hit allies but I've actually had enemies switch weapons and even mages cast spells (!) then go back into their usual confused behavior. Either it's bugged or my game is lol.
Phantom Blade has niche usage as a replacement weapon for Polymorph forms (e.g. Spider form against poison-immune/iron golems) if you either use it as a scroll at low levels and as a Spell Trigger later on. I feel it deserves a 2 or 2.5, just a small bump.
I'd actually drop both Lower Resistance and Animate Dead just a notch to 4/5 because neither are as strong at low levels as they are later on. LR is amazing when you can put three of them into a trigger and instanuke enemy MR but before then it takes a while to set up. Animate Dead is meh until you get the strongest Skeleton Warrior. Depends on the way you rate them I guess.
FYI Wand of Cloudkill no longer bypasses magic resistance. Its main benefits over the spell are that it lasts longer and has the shorter cast/usage time.
Chaos is very powerful, can disable hordes of enemies. It prevents the use of spells and special abilities, so a confused dragon can't use wing buffet/tail whip attacks, or his breath weapon, nor he can cast spells. When your party is sruck with this spell and half or more of your members are confused, it is a horrible, terrible thing if you can't dispel the condition quickly.
Breach and Lower resist are essentials. Spell immunity has many uses, protection from imprisonment, dispel magic, true sight, or pure blast spells such as meteor swarm etc. IMHO Top tiers are:Breach, Chaos, Lower resist, Spell immunity.
Animate dead is so meh as clerics can cast it better. Deifnitely a middle tier, IMHO.
I think most people will reach a consensus on level 5 since most spells are completely useless and a few are obviously much better than others.
As usual, i speak mostly based on solo play
Top tier : breach (5/5 in group or FM, 3/5 pure arcane solo) : best spell to support a group or for a FM. Not so useful for a pure arcane caster spell immunity (5/5) : Great defensive spell, especially in solo where you can use it to make you immune to anything the game throws at you. SI divination + improved invisibility is especially OP and not very expensive spell wise. lower resistance (4/5) : not used very often but a really useful spells (dragons, TOB bosses). I use it a lot with level 8 spell sequencer.
Mid tier : animate dead (2/5 in group, 3.5/5 for a pure arcane solo): But clerics have it at level 3. Furthermore, having to wait level 15 to have it reach its full potential is a big setback : it does not become good until quite late (and at level 15-16, mages have better tools to play with). Spiderspawn is a much better summoning spell IMO since it is useful from level 7 to level 14 (= all the beginning of SOA)
cloudkill (3/5) is very good but can be replaced by wand chaos (3/5) : good save penalty, aoe, party friendly but i dislike save or else spells
Crap tier : all the rest
special note : sunfire is now a very poor spell since it does not bypass MR anymore. The comparison with skull trap is especially ridiculous : - must be cast at point blank - 15d6 VS 20d6 - fire damage VS magic damage - level 5 VS level 3 - the no damage to self thing is barely a factor since it is quite easy to make your caster immune to magic damage (cloak of mirroring)
My picks as a solo sorc : 1- spell immunity 2- animate dead (at level 11 they are not great but are nonetheless useful) 3- sunfire (this was a mistake) -> to be replaced by cloudkill 4- lower resistance 5- breach-> not used.
Memorization for a F/M 2-3 x breach 1-2 x spell immunity lower resist only if fighting dragons or boss.
IIRC, Sunfire makes the caster temporarily but totally immune to fire damage, though that's barely a plus considering how short that particular property is. Maybe it's for an entire second or so.
IIRC, Sunfire makes the caster temporarily but totally immune to fire damage, though that's barely a plus considering how short that particular property is.
Yes. So if you put one Sunfire and two Delayed Fireball Blast on a Chain Contingency, when it's triggered, you take no damage from it, plus, spells targeted on you bypass enemies' MR. I'd give Spell Shield a better value, it still protects against lots of spells it shouldn't protect against n BG2:EE and BG:EE, like Dragon's innate attacks and other spells of that type. Chaos is almost game breaking in BG1, enemies of level 4 and lower can't save against it, and -4 penalty is a lot considering that many High Level enemies in BG1 are around levels 11-13, so they don't tend to save against it.
But then Spell Shield is not designed to protect against Dragon's breath and Beholder's anti-magic rays.
The problem I have with Chaos is that enemies can still attack you while Confused. It's true that confused mages cannot cast spells properly, but then their saves are usually very low. My experiences with the Cowled Wizards were 3/4 times it would miss.
Animate Dead is good because it tanks for magic enemies. 90% MR means it can tank spell casters after the Death Spell. In addition, they are immune to most disabling spells like confusion, stun, charm and fear. If the party has a Cleric, they should memorize it though. For solo sorcerer play, I would get this at level 15.
Sunfire used to a good spell. But now it no longer bypasses MR (whose idea to nerf it?). Now it is just a stronger version of Fireball.
I'm pretty sure this is fixed in BG2:EE which is why Sunfire sucks now.
For sorcerer with SCS I'd pick - Breach (this will also remove stuff like Mirror Images, elemental protections etc.) - Lower Resistance (obvious pick, otherwise your spells can't touch magic immune creatures) - Spell Immunity (this is good in general and must have in some special situations) - Spell Shield (with SCS this makes your protections last slightly longer against enemy mages)
The fifth pick (at level 28) is harder, perhaps Chaos? IMO animate dead sucks with SCS because nearly all enemy mages have Death Spell which instantly kills all summons.
Perhaps Sunfire is still viable in some cases, because with Robe of Vecna you can cast it instantaneously and perhaps clear small critters...
The thing about chaos is that you can buy 20 scrolls in sorcerous sundries in bgee. And quite frankly i have never seen it that efficient : casting web twice is a much better way to deal with groups.
Bbear i agree with you about animate dead : it is a good pick at level 15 for a solo sorc. But it tend to stop using it quite soon (swapping to adhw for hard fights as soon as level 16)
Regardless of their level every skeletal warrior created by Animate Dead (which in the mages case I suppose get just 7th, 11th, and 15th level versions) has 40% slashing resistance, 50% piercing resistance and 60% missile resistance (also 100% resistance to cold but that's not all that useful). Plus they all have the same immunities (stun, sleep, hold, panic, poison, fatigue, petrification, confusion, charm, level drain, slay and moral failure). The lowest amount of magic resistance it'll have (in the case of a bard/mage/sorceror) is 45% magic resistance and the worst (and best) enchantment level it'll have for its weapons (for a mage) is 1. Spider Spawn definitely has it beat offensively (because of the giant spider/phase spiders poison and phase spiders 2APR) but animate dead's summons are absolutely worth taking for any of their levels (until of course you get into some of the higher level summons).
If it were a cast-on-target spell, it would break the game.
Hardly. It would make summons and other party members more difficult to kill but it could still be dispelled and summons could still be killed via slaying or simply getting through the skins (or other magic).
In the game, not a modded game, I can count on one hand the number of times an enemy actually dispels my stoneskin. Cast on target stoneskin would not be 5/5. It'd be 10/5
Indeed, @elminster. Animate Dead's minions may not be the most damaging in combat but their hardiness makes them very useful, especially against casters. If someone's targeting your durable summon then they're not targeting party members.
Clerics get them at a lower spell level, but the arcane version is still good.
I'll throw my support behind Chaos as well. The save penalty is good, and while inconsistent in results it makes any enemy group less dangerous.
Protection from Electricity and Acid should probably be increased by a half-point. Damage of those types aren't that common but the duration of these spells make them useful in higher-level play when you get lots of spell slots. They've got durations of 1 turn/level just like Protection from Fire and Evil 10'. They're good as "just-in-case" spells.
If it were a cast-on-target spell, it would break the game.
Hardly. It would make summons and other party members more difficult to kill but it could still be dispelled and summons could still be killed via slaying or simply getting through the skins (or other magic).
In the game, not a modded game, I can count on one hand the number of times an enemy actually dispels my stoneskin. Cast on target stoneskin would not be 5/5. It'd be 10/5
It would be 5/5 because 5/5 is the max value given in this thread. If the spell also protected against on hit effects or poison and elemental damage done through attacks I'd also give it a 5/5 but as it stands now its not a perfect spell for its level and its got a lot of great competition (like improved invisibility and polymorph self each in their own way potentially making you nearly impervious to spellcasting).
As for enemies that dispel off the top of my head typically any dragons, some of the liches, some of the mages, Melissan, demon lords. Basically most of the really fun ones. For the powerful enemies that don't dispel it (like beholders, mindflayers, or Kanglaxx) the threat they pose isn't physical damage to begin with.
Indeed, @elminster. Animate Dead's minions may not be the most damaging in combat but their hardiness makes them very useful, especially against casters. If someone's targeting your durable summon then they're not targeting party members.
Yep.
Yea I guess Protection from Electricity and Protection from Acid probably have their uses in specific circumstances (Watcher's Keep comes to mind).
Phantom Blade has niche usage as a replacement weapon for Polymorph forms (e.g. Spider form against poison-immune/iron golems) if you either use it as a scroll at low levels and as a Spell Trigger later on. I feel it deserves a 2 or 2.5, just a small bump.
That is probably its biggest use. I was just testing it now (with Edwin wielding it) and the most I was able to do with it was 13 damage. Its damage description in Near Infinity is kind of wonky but I'd say its probably a 1d10 sword. The downside though is that you'd need to either put it in a contingency (and be level 15) or have level 8 spells (Spell Trigger). Otherwise you can't use get it while polymorphed.
I kind of agree with elminster. Stoneskin is not THAT great. Actually if it was a short time buff i am not so sure i would use it that much : - crowd control (web, time stop) makes it largely redundant - it just does not cut it in TOB since a lot of ennemies will use GWW and tear through your stoneskins. PFMW has really the edge there (which is normal for a level 6 spell VS level 4)
The main thing is that, with stoneskin, you are allowed to play carelessly with no fear of being in immediate danger. Yet it is still a formidable spell and one i would take and use on any mage.
I also agree with animate dead. Actually i always take it at level 11 with my sorc and start to use it immediately.
I am using 4 kinds of summons : - spiderspawn for the combo with web. Great for bgee and early-mid soa. - animate dead. The long duration is very nice since it allows you to summon your own personnal army before exploring an area. Mostly useless in TOB. But very useful until then, especially against casters - mordenkainen's sword. Great against physical types and completely useless against mages (death spell). Remains very useful in TOB (fire giants, ravager) - planetar : disgustingly powerful. This guys solo soa with ease (save for the last 2 fights against irenicus). In tob he remains a formidable ally.
So wait, if stoneskin protected against not only physical damage, but ALL damage, you'd give it a 5/5? You want it to be, basically, stoneskin + protection from the elements, a 7th (or 8th? I can't remember) level spell, in order for it to be 5/5?
So wait, if stoneskin protected against not only physical damage, but ALL damage, you'd give it a 5/5? You want it to be, basically, stoneskin + protection from the elements, a 7th (or 8th? I can't remember) level spell, in order for it to be 5/5?
Err..no I said elemental damage from attacks (like fire arrows). Not spells...
Comments
Overall, between stoneskins and improved invis, the level 4 arcane casting makes you immune to 95% of ennemies in SOA. This is why other spells at this level are irrelevant for a solo char (F/M type)
For a pure arcane caster (sorc), you need an offensive option.
Spiderspawn gives you an efficient way to kill most groups with casting 2 level 2 spell (webx2) and 2 level 4 spells (spiderspawnx2). No other spell at that level or below can kill as efficiently.
Level 5
Top Tiers:
-Breach: 5/5
-Animate Dead: 4.5/5 (wait until level 15)
-Lower Resistance: 4.5/5 (enables dragon slaying at low level)
-Spell Immunity: 4/5
Mid Tiers:
-Cone of Cold: 3.5/5 (powerful spell but use wand; most likely destroy loot)
-Domination: 3.5/5 (target saves -2)
-Sunfire: 3.5/5 (no longer ignores MR)
-Chaos: 3/5 (area effect save -4)
-Cloudkill: 3/5 (wand version casts at speed 1 and ignores MR)
-Feeblemind: 3/5 (target saves -2)
-Oracle: 3/5
-Protection from Normal Weapons: 3/5
-Shadow Door: 3/5
-Spell Shield: 3/5
-Minor Spell Turning: 2.5/5 (overprice for this level)
Low Tiers:
-Monster Summoning III: 2/5
-Conjure Lesser Air Elemental: 2/5 (immune to normal weapons)
-Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental: 2/5 (immune to normal weapons)
-Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental: 2/5 (immune to normal weapons)
-Hold Monster: 2/5 (Dryad from Call Woodland Beings gets this for free, save -2)
-Phantom Blade: 1.5/5
-Protection from Acid: 1.5/5
-Protection from Electricity: 1.5/5
Of the midtier spells I'd rate Chaos (4/5 thanks to the great save penalty and AoE) a bit higher. I think I'd even promote it to top tier status.
Phantom Blade has niche usage as a replacement weapon for Polymorph forms (e.g. Spider form against poison-immune/iron golems) if you either use it as a scroll at low levels and as a Spell Trigger later on. I feel it deserves a 2 or 2.5, just a small bump.
I'd actually drop both Lower Resistance and Animate Dead just a notch to 4/5 because neither are as strong at low levels as they are later on. LR is amazing when you can put three of them into a trigger and instanuke enemy MR but before then it takes a while to set up. Animate Dead is meh until you get the strongest Skeleton Warrior. Depends on the way you rate them I guess.
Breach and Lower resist are essentials. Spell immunity has many uses, protection from imprisonment, dispel magic, true sight, or pure blast spells such as meteor swarm etc. IMHO Top tiers are:Breach, Chaos, Lower resist, Spell immunity.
Animate dead is so meh as clerics can cast it better. Deifnitely a middle tier, IMHO.
As usual, i speak mostly based on solo play
Top tier :
breach (5/5 in group or FM, 3/5 pure arcane solo) : best spell to support a group or for a FM. Not so useful for a pure arcane caster
spell immunity (5/5) : Great defensive spell, especially in solo where you can use it to make you immune to anything the game throws at you. SI divination + improved invisibility is especially OP and not very expensive spell wise.
lower resistance (4/5) : not used very often but a really useful spells (dragons, TOB bosses). I use it a lot with level 8 spell sequencer.
Mid tier :
animate dead (2/5 in group, 3.5/5 for a pure arcane solo): But clerics have it at level 3. Furthermore, having to wait level 15 to have it reach its full potential is a big setback : it does not become good until quite late (and at level 15-16, mages have better tools to play with). Spiderspawn is a much better summoning spell IMO since it is useful from level 7 to level 14 (= all the beginning of SOA)
cloudkill (3/5) is very good but can be replaced by wand
chaos (3/5) : good save penalty, aoe, party friendly but i dislike save or else spells
Crap tier : all the rest
special note : sunfire is now a very poor spell since it does not bypass MR anymore.
The comparison with skull trap is especially ridiculous :
- must be cast at point blank
- 15d6 VS 20d6
- fire damage VS magic damage
- level 5 VS level 3
- the no damage to self thing is barely a factor since it is quite easy to make your caster immune to magic damage (cloak of mirroring)
My picks as a solo sorc :
1- spell immunity
2- animate dead (at level 11 they are not great but are nonetheless useful)
3- sunfire (this was a mistake) -> to be replaced by cloudkill
4- lower resistance
5- breach-> not used.
Memorization for a F/M
2-3 x breach
1-2 x spell immunity
lower resist only if fighting dragons or boss.
No complaints about this level.
I'd give Spell Shield a better value, it still protects against lots of spells it shouldn't protect against n BG2:EE and BG:EE, like Dragon's innate attacks and other spells of that type.
Chaos is almost game breaking in BG1, enemies of level 4 and lower can't save against it, and -4 penalty is a lot considering that many High Level enemies in BG1 are around levels 11-13, so they don't tend to save against it.
The problem I have with Chaos is that enemies can still attack you while Confused. It's true that confused mages cannot cast spells properly, but then their saves are usually very low. My experiences with the Cowled Wizards were 3/4 times it would miss.
Animate Dead is good because it tanks for magic enemies. 90% MR means it can tank spell casters after the Death Spell. In addition, they are immune to most disabling spells like confusion, stun, charm and fear. If the party has a Cleric, they should memorize it though. For solo sorcerer play, I would get this at level 15.
Sunfire used to a good spell. But now it no longer bypasses MR (whose idea to nerf it?). Now it is just a stronger version of Fireball.
Breach
Chaos
Domination
Lower Resistance
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Sunfire
Bbear i agree with you about animate dead : it is a good pick at level 15 for a solo sorc. But it tend to stop using it quite soon (swapping to adhw for hard fights as soon as level 16)
Clerics get them at a lower spell level, but the arcane version is still good.
I'll throw my support behind Chaos as well. The save penalty is good, and while inconsistent in results it makes any enemy group less dangerous.
As for enemies that dispel off the top of my head typically any dragons, some of the liches, some of the mages, Melissan, demon lords. Basically most of the really fun ones. For the powerful enemies that don't dispel it (like beholders, mindflayers, or Kanglaxx) the threat they pose isn't physical damage to begin with. Yep.
Yea I guess Protection from Electricity and Protection from Acid probably have their uses in specific circumstances (Watcher's Keep comes to mind).
- crowd control (web, time stop) makes it largely redundant
- it just does not cut it in TOB since a lot of ennemies will use GWW and tear through your stoneskins. PFMW has really the edge there (which is normal for a level 6 spell VS level 4)
The main thing is that, with stoneskin, you are allowed to play carelessly with no fear of being in immediate danger. Yet it is still a formidable spell and one i would take and use on any mage.
I also agree with animate dead. Actually i always take it at level 11 with my sorc and start to use it immediately.
I am using 4 kinds of summons :
- spiderspawn for the combo with web. Great for bgee and early-mid soa.
- animate dead. The long duration is very nice since it allows you to summon your own personnal army before exploring an area. Mostly useless in TOB. But very useful until then, especially against casters
- mordenkainen's sword. Great against physical types and completely useless against mages (death spell). Remains very useful in TOB (fire giants, ravager)
- planetar : disgustingly powerful. This guys solo soa with ease (save for the last 2 fights against irenicus). In tob he remains a formidable ally.