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Most underwhelming party member (BG2)

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  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Mazzy
    Tinter said:

    Minsc is worse than Mazzy.

    Mazzy:
    Grandmastery
    Minor buffs
    Better dex
    Better saves

    Minsc:
    Uncontrolled rage
    slower levelling
    3 levels of Druid spells...woop.
    Charm animal & Stealth (YMMV, I get little use from either)
    Strength (most easily buffed stat)

    Ultimately, I'd rather have the saves and Grandmastery than Stealth, Druid spells and some strength, I think.

    But, you know, most people have played through with him at one point. This isn't BG1 where you can have some Eldoth/Garrick/Tiax/Alora deathfight of minimal utility. All the NPCs are perfectly usable.

    I would agree, Minsc is inferior to Mazzy. I would say he is the only warrior who is, but that isnt quite what a meant by underwhelming.

    Mazzy is more underwhelming because there is a larger gap between my expectations for her and her actual effectiveness. She is meant to be exceptionally powerful but her unique bonuses are mediocre (clearly inferior to Korgan's kit bonus) and she is severely weakened by poor proficiency choices.

    By your mid 20's, this misallocation of proficiencies can be corrected, but you will only be able to gain grandmastery + weapon style with one weapon besides shortsword and shortbow, which in my view are both rather weak. Also, mid 20s is a long time to wait just to be a respectable but not outstanding warrior.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    It takes 6mil xp for multi mages to gain Lvl 9 spells. Maybe I'm bad, but I tend to finish the game long before that, at least, when unmodded.
    Tinter said:

    Minsc is worse than Mazzy.
    This isn't BG1 where you can have some Eldoth/Garrick/Tiax/Alora deathfight of minimal utility. All the NPCs are perfectly usable.

    Tiax is more than usable. He'd give a good portion of BG2 Priests a run for their money... and the thieves.

    CrevsDaak
  • TinterTinter Member Posts: 152
    Minsc
    I dislike the multi, but yes he is actually useful/ better than any pure cleric. Feel free to substitute Skie; the general point nonetheless stands.

  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 329
    Cernd
    BobC said:


    I don't see how any Druid is useless when they get access to some of the most useful spells mid and late SoA (go ahead a tell me that woodland beings is a useless spell). And I certainly don't see how a shapeshifter is worst than a single class druid when it has a form that actually useful for fighting.

    Call Woodland beings is a very nice spell, especially with the 2x free area heals. Iron Skin and Insect Plague are also very nice. Call Lightning has its uses damage-wise, but is very limited in BG2, since most fighting happens indoors. That's pretty much it though. At least Jaheira gets Harper's Call, an early revive spell.
    Clerics simply get much more useful divine spells all in all.

    The Shapeshifter is without question worse than the already weak pure class druid. You get a werewolf form (without all the usual werewolf perks of course), with a dmg of 1d6. At lvl 13 you get greater werewolf which is still stuck at 1d6, but now with a meager +2.
    "All this" for the giant tradeoff that is not being able to wear any armor besides bracers.
    Add in the huge amounts of exp needed to progress in druid levels later on, and Cernd simply gets worse and worse compared to all other npcs.

    Cernd is useless "by comparison". Because technically speaking, no class is useless. Even a kobold follower can be used as a 1-hit meat-shield. Cernd simply gets to be a 2-hit meat-shield.

    CrevsDaak
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,180
    edited August 2014
    Other (please state who)
    Zanian said:

    BobC said:


    I don't see how any Druid is useless when they get access to some of the most useful spells mid and late SoA (go ahead a tell me that woodland beings is a useless spell). And I certainly don't see how a shapeshifter is worst than a single class druid when it has a form that actually useful for fighting.

    Call Woodland beings is a very nice spell, especially with the 2x free area heals. Iron Skin and Insect Plague are also very nice. Call Lightning has its uses damage-wise, but is very limited in BG2, since most fighting happens indoors. That's pretty much it though. At least Jaheira gets Harper's Call, an early revive spell.
    Clerics simply get much more useful divine spells all in all.

    The Shapeshifter is without question worse than the already weak pure class druid. You get a werewolf form (without all the usual werewolf perks of course), with a dmg of 1d6. At lvl 13 you get greater werewolf which is still stuck at 1d6, but now with a meager +2.
    "All this" for the giant tradeoff that is not being able to wear any armor besides bracers.
    Add in the huge amounts of exp needed to progress in druid levels later on, and Cernd simply gets worse and worse compared to all other npcs.

    Cernd is useless "by comparison". Because technically speaking, no class is useless. Even a kobold follower can be used as a 1-hit meat-shield. Cernd simply gets to be a 2-hit meat-shield.
    - 10 AC (not including items like his cloak, ring of protection, spells, etc), 40% magic resistance, 50% fire and cold resistance. All accessible at level 13 (750,000 xp). Not to mention the option of casting Iron Skins before battle and then transforming. Cernd is way more than a "2 hit meat shield".

    CrevsDaakjackjack
  • UnknownQuantityUnknownQuantity Member Posts: 242
    Cernd

    Tinter said:

    Minsc is worse than Mazzy.

    Mazzy:
    Grandmastery
    Minor buffs
    Better dex
    Better saves

    Minsc:
    Uncontrolled rage
    slower levelling
    3 levels of Druid spells...woop.
    Charm animal & Stealth (YMMV, I get little use from either)
    Strength (most easily buffed stat)

    Ultimately, I'd rather have the saves and Grandmastery than Stealth, Druid spells and some strength, I think.

    But, you know, most people have played through with him at one point. This isn't BG1 where you can have some Eldoth/Garrick/Tiax/Alora deathfight of minimal utility. All the NPCs are perfectly usable.

    I would agree, Minsc is inferior to Mazzy. I would say he is the only warrior who is, but that isnt quite what a meant by underwhelming.

    Mazzy is more underwhelming because there is a larger gap between my expectations for her and her actual effectiveness. She is meant to be exceptionally powerful but her unique bonuses are mediocre (clearly inferior to Korgan's kit bonus) and she is severely weakened by poor proficiency choices.

    By your mid 20's, this misallocation of proficiencies can be corrected, but you will only be able to gain grandmastery + weapon style with one weapon besides shortsword and shortbow, which in my view are both rather weak. Also, mid 20s is a long time to wait just to be a respectable but not outstanding warrior.
    She actually has proficiencies that make sense for her. Shortbows and Shortswords make sense for a hafling fighter type. Personally I don't like blunt weapons at all and am kind of sad that the best weapons are either blunt or two handed. I prefer swords and they tend to be a lot weaker in the BG series. That means a lot of characters are less powerful then they could have been. The best weapons seem to be hammers, flails, two handed swords, and axes. There are a few good longswords and a good (but only +3) Katana. I wouldn't expect Mazzy to use a two handed sword. There are already to many characters using that proficiency anyway IMO.

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Mazzy


    She actually has proficiencies that make sense for her. Shortbows and Shortswords make sense for a hafling fighter type. Personally I don't like blunt weapons at all and am kind of sad that the best weapons are either blunt or two handed. I prefer swords and they tend to be a lot weaker in the BG series. That means a lot of characters are less powerful then they could have been. The best weapons seem to be hammers, flails, two handed swords, and axes. There are a few good longswords and a good (but only +3) Katana. I wouldn't expect Mazzy to use a two handed sword. There are already to many characters using that proficiency anyway IMO.

    Lorewise her proficiencies might well make sense. However, as I said, I was judging based simply on mechanics. And in terms of mechanics, there is no reason to use a one hander when your offhand has to be free for your shortbow.

    But the main problem is that the weapons available for those proficiencies simply arent very good. Shortbows are the best bows in the game, but unfortunately nerfs to archery in BG2 make it simply not an effective choice, and shortswords just dont have any powerful enchantments.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    Lorewise her proficiencies might well make sense. However, as I said, I was judging based simply on mechanics. And in terms of mechanics, there is no reason to use a one hander when your offhand has to be free for your shortbow.

    Wait a minute. This just seems (no offense intended) laziness. Switching between one handed weapon and bow isn't "Ideal", but it is hardly an argument why a character is ineffective.

    jackjack
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy


    Lorewise her proficiencies might well make sense. However, as I said, I was judging based simply on mechanics. And in terms of mechanics, there is no reason to use a one hander when your offhand has to be free for your shortbow.

    Wait a minute. This just seems (no offense intended) laziness. Switching between one handed weapon and bow isn't "Ideal", but it is hardly an argument why a character is ineffective.
    If you mean fiddling around in the inventory screen every single time you want to switch between melee ranged then its a bit more than merely not ideal, its incredibly inconvenient (consider how annoying the much less frequent cloak switching with Hexxat is). I cannot imagine many players going to the hassle of using sword and board or dual wielding with a bow. And assuming that you dont, it is therefore sub optimal to use a single handed weapon with your bow.

    But more to the point, I specifically said:

    "the main problem is that the weapons available for those proficiencies simply arent very good."

    Its not so much the fact that a one hander melee is sub optimal with a two handed ranged weapon (although it is), its the fact that the melee and ranged weapons in question simply arent very good.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @RandyMcStud - actually, I quoted what you said just fine. I didn't have an argument about the rest of it.

    Again, your definition of what is functional and what is absolutely optimal are identical it would seem. And that is fine. You are a pure power gamer. if it ain't piofect, it is broke, from your stand point (seemingly). I for one don't limit myself.

    As for the switching, you don't like doing it. Fine. It's actually quite easy to do. And any dedicated Archer is going to rarely switch anyway. But again, difference of opinion. It's an open forum.

  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    Cernd
    Mazzy is not a frontliner and should not be compared to one, imo.

    She is an archer, a second row character, and excels in that. If your party does not have a place for an archer then I get not using her. Her effectiveness should be judged by what she is rather than what she is not. As an archer, she is the most effective NPC in BG2. Comparing her to Korgan is to miss the point, imo. They are implemented so differently in every way, that there is little to gain by spending so much energy comparing them.

    And it makes the roleplayer in me die a little inside every time I hear her compared to Korgan. But that is not a debate for a powergaming thread...

    kaguanajackjackthe_spyder
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,131
    Other (please state who)
    The question is very tough. When I saw "Yoshimo" option something in me just exploded: *what? you dare to put my favourite NPC into the underwhelming category? seriously?*

    But then I realized that different people can have different tastes. So even while I find Yoshimo an interesting character with good lines and nice abilities someone can find him meh.

    So I should try to skip my emotions answering this question. No emotions at all, only game mechanics. The only one NPC in the whole BG who differs majorly from the rest is Imoen. The lack of XP she has when you come to the Spellhold is unprecedented. I tend to complete many quests in the chapter 2 so when the party reaches Imoen she's many levels behind. It is a big flaw if you look from the game mechanics point of view.

    So, yes, Imoen.

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy

    @RandyMcStud - actually, I quoted what you said just fine. I didn't have an argument about the rest of it.

    Again, your definition of what is functional and what is absolutely optimal are identical it would seem. And that is fine. You are a pure power gamer. if it ain't piofect, it is broke, from your stand point (seemingly). I for one don't limit myself.

    As for the switching, you don't like doing it. Fine. It's actually quite easy to do. And any dedicated Archer is going to rarely switch anyway. But again, difference of opinion. It's an open forum.

    I never claimed you misquoted me, I just claimed you didnt address the part on which I placed most emphasis, which you didnt.

    Nor did I ever claim that optimal and functional are the same thing, or anything remotely similar to that. You can easily get by with a very far from optimised party, the game simply isnt hard enough to require powergaming. Nor am I a pure powergamer. I am presently playing through the series as an avenger, that is very far from powergaming.

    But the subject of the thread is who is the most underwhelming party member. Inevitably, that discussion is going to involve the relative power of characters and who is most suboptimal. Of all the warriors, Mazzy is one of the least effective.

    Nor did I say switching weapons was difficult, I said it is very inconvenient. There is no great skill involved in changing item slots. Its just annoying when you have to do it every time you want to switch between ranged and melee.

    Ardul
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Mazzy

    @RandyMcStud - Yup. Whatever you say boss.

    Well be petulant if you like, but if you errect straw man after straw man of what I say, I am going to correct you.

    Ardul
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited August 2014
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Hexxat
    Cernd isn't actually ineffective mechanically: he does everything he is supposed to do very well. He has plenty of Druid spell slots, advances through Druidic magic at a pace that Jaheira won't be capable of keeping up with, and he can double as a frontline fighter moderately well (not as well as Jaheira, however, and in this way one is ying and the other is yang where the role of a Druid is concerned in a 6-party contribution).

    Hexxat, however, has obscene - but volatile - stats, that are expected to compensate for her 1 attack per round. Granted, this is 2ED rules, and not her fault. She is a deplorably poor character, but speaking strictly in term of mechanics, she simply doesn't suffice as a contributor to party damage. Her 20Str (under specific circumstances) does not offset her 1 sneak attack per battle, nor her 1 attack per round, and as a ranged combatant she cannot outclass Mazzy in terms of physical damage, nor can she upstage Nalia, who has an equal number of attacks per round with a shortbow, and plenty of spells to boot.

    Abi_DalzimJLeekaguana
  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    Other (please state who)
    Haer'dalis is the most underwhelming always tries to fight me over Aerie and always ends up as chunky bits.

    Ardul
  • LeonLeon Member Posts: 83
    Cernd

    Haer'dalis is the most underwhelming always tries to fight me over Aerie and always ends up as chunky bits.

    why would you fight for wingless lass? you can have both of them, and in TOB Haer'dalis is pretty fun to play with. Aerie is whiny- he story is oke and i guess everyone can settle for pity sex (or baby) if they fail vic or jah romance.

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