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Why do you guys reroll (stats) so much?

2

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  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,445
    I should also mention, since we brought up the cheating thing, my view on mods/cheating/etc.

    Baldur's Gate is based on D&D, and to me, the greatest part about D&D is when we blend rules and homebrew stuff. I'm a hardcore rules lawyer when I play PnP games but homebrew is just as important, in my opinion, as the rules written. I don't mind people changing the rules as long as they know the original rules.

    This carries over to D&D crpgs for me.

    Mods and cheating are me homebrewing my own game. Games I run use point-buy so for me Baldur's Gate uses my own version of that.

    Mods that change mechanics, add classes, and such things are just more homebrew rules to be added.

    My first run of a game will always be vanilla but any runs after that I mod the hell out of the game.

    To me, this ability to choose how we play makes this even closer to how actual D&D is. People who love to roll can roll, people who don't love to roll don't have to.

    Side note, when I do one-shot games I let players roll for their stats with 2 re-rolls. 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll ones.

    JarrakulJuliusBorisovdunbar
  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166
    This thread is a real alignment check isn't it?

    Personally I'm pretty happy with anything 88 or better and will roll until I see that.

    I think you'll be hard pressed to find a P&P game where some stat optimization isn't used. Either roll 3d6 10 times and take the best, roll 4d6 and drop the worst, or similar methods so that you don't have to play a complete gimp.

    Rolling 3d6 6 times in order and letting the chips fall where they may in P&P ensures a party with no variety in classes since the odds of the person who wants to play a given class hitting the class minimum are hit or miss. A player who likes to play a mage isn't going to make a great thief in role playing and you won't have a fun game or a player who is going to free up 6 hours every Saturday night to come over to campaign. More savvy players stuck with a PC they don't like will just charge a hoard of monsters or throw themselves on their sword and start rolling again if they can't hit what they want, so it's the same as clicking "reroll" in BG except not quite as fast.

    Experienced DMs allow players enough flexibility that nobody is too overpowered (unless they're incredibly lucky), and everyone can come up with a character that everyone can agree was done "fairly" but that they're happy with and will enjoy playing. IMO the game does a fine job with the re-roll system and IMO if your character has all 20 stats for your head-canon and role play, good for you. It's a fantasy that you are creating and you can create the protagonist however you picture him or her.

    Also bear in mind Charname has some divine blood and is on a plot line towards ascension so some super human stats would hardly be considered way out of line. I would even consider it fun to just start with one roll and go with it, then keeper-edit one of your stats +1 each time you get a new bahlspawn power. Possibly even dropping them back down to original levels
    when Irenicus has your soul

    HeindrichkcwiseJuliusBorisovGotural
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    For me, it's the sense that I somehow "earned" that good roll through my own patience. It feels like it's more mine if it came from the game's random number generator than if I just put the numbers in myself. Which sounds weird, when I say it that way, but it's the truth. I certainly have no problem with people just editing in whatever statlines they want, but for my purposes, I just find it unsatisfying. *shrug*

    kcwiseJuliusBorisovGoturalBlackraven
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2015
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    kcwise
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    edited March 2015
    For me, a large part of it is the intense trains of thought I go through in the process of generating a 90+ FM or FMT with better than 18-50 Strength. Fighting off the temptation to settle for a ridiculously Min-Maxed 87pt character so I can have at least 9-10pts in every Stat is always a curious process.

    And I always do the rolling the old-fashioned way by temporarily covering the place where the Stat total appears.

    Part of it is that, in my family [3 boys and a younger sister] I was always groomed for a typical Middle Child mentality, seeking the negotiated outcome, settling for good enough, not rocking the boat, the one who can see both sides of every question and also several shades of subtleties beyond "both sides". A typical "Frozen-Chosen" Presbyterian -- from the southern part of the United States where historical memory is such a powder-keg.

    [As an interesting aside, I mention that at this very moment, a local controversy stemming from that history, which has been building for the past couple of years is entering a new phase. One of the old buildings in the main Quad of campus [I live in a college-town], mostly used for Political Science and History classes, has been singled out as bearing the name of an early Alumnus prominent in North Carolina politics after the Civil War who was a notably generous University benefactor. That alumnus also just happened to have been deeply involved in the origin and early developmental organization of the now infamous and despised Ku Klux Klan.... Hearings to rename the building are ongoing at the annual Board of Trustees meeting.]

    Sticking up for a really good outcome for me, myself and I - is so counterfactual to my basic life-strategy as to be almost absurd. Showing clearly how many narratives in my life experience might well have turned out in a completely different fashion if I had developed more First-Child assertiveness.

    A few more inches and @40lbs of solid muscle and ....... Sgt. Rock be yer uncle!! Course that could also have landed me in a wheelchair...etc. -Cheers!

    On the other hand, 4 hours seems kinda extreme. If I have not managed a 90+ with good Strength within an hour I will settle for a Min-Maxed Stored roll of 88-89

    kcwiseJuliusBorisovSouave_Said
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    @Eadwyn_G8keeper That was interesting, but I didn't completely follow it. Are you saying you re-roll because demanding the best is a silent protest against a world in which crap like Saunders Hall still exists? Or you want to create a super powerful character to serve as an alpha-dog alter ego?

    Side note: I was hoping this thread would rehabilitate me, but instead it has strengthened my rerolling resolve.

    kcwise
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2015
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    kcwisedeltagojoluvBelgarathMTH
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Wilson's quote: " The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it." Do not know the date.

    kcwiseSouave_Said
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029

    I think having lower rolls would be more tolerable if there were bonuses attached to them.

    7-15 STR: No bonus to melee combat
    7-14 DEX: No bonus to AC or missile THAC0
    7-14 CON: No HP bonus

    An average character would be more appealing if it were not equal to a below-average character.

    This. Right here. Full Stop.

    VallmyrkcwiseAbi_Dalzim
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,445
    Jarrakul said:

    I think having lower rolls would be more tolerable if there were bonuses attached to them.

    7-15 STR: No bonus to melee combat
    7-14 DEX: No bonus to AC or missile THAC0
    7-14 CON: No HP bonus

    An average character would be more appealing if it were not equal to a below-average character.

    This. Right here. Full Stop.
    Yeahhhhh. It also makes me feel kind of bad because even when I put an 8 in a stat as a "flaw" it's not actually a flaw.

    I also demand that my main characters have an 18 in charisma and I know its useless because I get a ring in bg2 BUT NO VAL'MYR IS SUPER CHARISMATIC, YO! The only time it's below is when it's 16 because I'm applying Drow stats to him (+2 dex, +1 int, -1 con, -2 cha I think they were). I RP it as a surface elf that then drops the light blindness and magic resistance traits.

    kcwise
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    kcwise
  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166

    I think having lower rolls would be more tolerable if there were bonuses attached to them.

    7-15 STR: No bonus to melee combat
    7-14 DEX: No bonus to AC or missile THAC0
    7-14 CON: No HP bonus

    An average character would be more appealing if it were not equal to a below-average character.

    Mind you, this is because the stat rolls represent a bell curve. This is as it should be and as much set up to NOT punish weak rolls as to reward super rolls.

    kcwise
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Very true about the bell curve. Still, the bonuses, if not the stats, don't fit on a bell curve--only in terms of STR, with percentile rolls, does the bonus grow exponentially, just as the rarity grows exponentially with increasing values.

    There should be some distinction between a below-average character and an above-average character. The way it's set up, with no special bonuses attached to average values, the large majority of people are identical in terms of their abilities.

    The 13/11/14 guy has exactly the same capabilities as the 7/14/9 guy. They should be similar, but not identical.

    joluvkcwisedunbarBlackraven
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    Wowo said:

    Isn't it simply that cheating is cheating and not cheating is not cheating?

    How is it cheating when you get the exact same result? Do you honestly believe that sitting there for an hour clicking 1 button is an achievement that should be required in order to get the total you want? Especially when it's 100% a matter of luck and 0% a matter of skill?

    Is taking the bus instead of walking also "cheating" to get to a destination?
    It's cheating because you type a cheat code to do it.

    You don't get the same result. In one case you take a short cut, in the other you don't. If you roll you consider the minimum roll you need to achieve your objectives and you might end up settling for less than that (especially the case for dual Druids or fighter/mages who want to use wish).

    I don't think anyone should sit there for an hour. I think most people spend 5 minutes rolling and fit their character concept to a roll that can be achieved in that time.

    As mentioned it's not 0% skill. This was very clear to me when I was watching my friend roll compared to myself, he went too fast and missed good roles.

    One of the longest rolling sessions that I had recently was when I rolled my no plus/minus, no reload IWD party. Not adjusting the stats made it much harder to get good roles and I usually had to settle with just one exceptional stat and one okay stat compared to the usual trifecta (str/dex/con). Each character ended up with unique stats that weren't adjusted at all.

    kcwise
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    hispls said:

    Mind you, this is because the stat rolls represent a bell curve. This is as it should be and as much set up to NOT punish weak rolls as to reward super rolls.

    I'm not sure I understand how the bell curve relates to the necessity of a large "dead zones" between stats that give penalties and stats that give bonuses. The bell curve tells us that roughly 80% of rolls will fall within this dead zone (before all the crazy stuff BG does). To me, that sounds like a problem, as the modifiers lack the necessary resolution to tell a 10th percentile person from a 90th percentile person.

    kcwiseEadwyn_G8keeper
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,343
    Wow, this thread really exploded :) 26 replies since yesterday, hehe..

    One thing I didn't add yesterday; before they added the total roll figure, I enjoyed rolling more than I do now. As others have mentioned as well, getting that feeling that you've earned it was even stronger when you had to make a quick calc in your head. The feeling of looking at the figures for less than a second and BAM! you see that this may the 'one roll to rule them all', then you more thouroughly add them together and sometimes you calc'd it right but sometimes I calc'd it wrong and the roll wasn't as good as I initially thought.

    Also, I too created a system for clicking fast but not missing the good roll: I stared at the top three figures, and only stopped if all three was above 14-15. If they were, I looked at the bottom three. The total roll button took some of the fun out of it, but I still try to roll my chars.

    I hate being stuck at work when I get cravings to play the game :-/ I really, really just wanna go home and play my current BG2 playthrough with a classic F->M.

    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaakkcwiseBlackraven
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    Personally I think having the option to choose HOW you roll your character is the important factor here. In my PnP days the DM set the rules for character creation (most DMs were flexible and some were susceptible to bribery!).

    As long as you are playing a single-player game you can vary the way you roll to suit your own preferences.
    For example, if I want to play a particular type of character (be it a specific class or someone I know in RL) I will roll until I have sufficient points to distribute accordingly - however long it takes. On the other hand, when I'm feeling adventurous/bored/masochistic I just take the first roll and think "What the hell am I going to do with this? Who is he/she going to be?".

    Either way I put a lot of thought into the process (be it before or after the roll) and that for me is part of the whole 'rolling experience' and something that I enjoy in itself.

    kcwiseGreenWarlockJuliusBorisovBlackraven
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    edited April 2015

    Very true about the bell curve. Still, the bonuses, if not the stats, don't fit on a bell curve--only in terms of STR, with percentile rolls, does the bonus grow exponentially, just as the rarity grows exponentially with increasing values.

    There should be some distinction between a below-average character and an above-average character. The way it's set up, with no special bonuses attached to average values, the large majority of people are identical in terms of their abilities.

    The 13/11/14 guy has exactly the same capabilities as the 7/14/9 guy. They should be similar, but not identical.

    I also feel that there is very little difference between a 90pt Multi-class Protag 18/55-18-18-18-9-9 and a 96pt Protag 18/55-18-18-18-12-12 but it surely has a different feel. Of course, if one is doing a trilogy run the 12 Wisdom is a crucial upgrade for Magic Users but for BG1 its fluff.

    That is why my Charname always flails himself with a knotted rope and drinks cod-liver oil before retiring... :) LOLOLOL!!

    @Skatan: My method insta-rejects any roll incuding a single digit stat as that is easily recognized and hard to overcome if 90+pts is the goal. Next it insta-rejects any roll containing 2 stats with only 10-11pts. Then it balances Stats with 16+pts against those with @12-14 pts. If that feels like a fairly close balance I do the math.

    Post edited by Eadwyn_G8keeper on
    kcwiseSkatanJuliusBorisov
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,810
    I find myself rolling a lot less longer than I used to do as I don' t aim that high anymore. Instead I have a certain mix of stats in mind "she will excel in this stat, be above average in those 3 stats but her weak point is that stat". Sometimes it's the first result that's got enough points to fit the bill, usually it's achieved within 5 rolls and often points need to be dumped: detracted from the roll and not taken as the total roll is too high. I don't want charname to have 85 points when the setup I have in mind totals 80 points for instance, I let 5 points go unused (yet it feels more rewarding to roll for the intended result than shadowkeep one).

    If you know the game there's no need for a superman to complete it, not even with SCS. CON for my most recent Charname is 14 for instance, so only after finding a tome she'll have extraordinary health. I'm a great fan of 16 DEX though as it makes the game less frustrating in the beginning with all those kobold arrows. Don't know why I don't opt for 16 CON 14 DEX for a similar result, but I find high dex low con characters more amiable. CHA is always high as well, unless I roleplay a jerk.

    kcwiseBlackravenLemernisEadwyn_G8keeper
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,343

    I find myself rolling a lot less longer than I used to do as I don' t aim that high anymore. Instead I have a certain mix of stats in mind "she will excel in this stat, be above average in those 3 stats but her weak point is that stat". Sometimes it's the first result that's got enough points to fit the bill, usually it's achieved within 5 rolls and often points need to be dumped: detracted from the roll and not taken as the total roll is too high. I don't want charname to have 85 points when the setup I have in mind totals 80 points for instance, I let 5 points go unused (yet it feels more rewarding to roll for the intended result than shadowkeep one).

    I think that if we would have rolled BEFORE deciding class, instead of the opposite, it would be more fun to just roll once or a few times and then see what is the best future for that char. Often you wouldn't have the min.reqs for certain classes, and you wouldn't be certain that you can dual class etc. As of now, I guess most people already know what they will create and what stats is needed for the intended path of the character, thus one rolls the dice until the goal is met. Perhaps next runthrough I will roll dices beforehand, then set those figures in EEkeeper, creating the char after rolling the stats.

    kcwiseBlackravenEadwyn_G8keeper
  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166
    Jarrakul said:

    hispls said:

    Mind you, this is because the stat rolls represent a bell curve. This is as it should be and as much set up to NOT punish weak rolls as to reward super rolls.

    I'm not sure I understand how the bell curve relates to the necessity of a large "dead zones" between stats that give penalties and stats that give bonuses. The bell curve tells us that roughly 80% of rolls will fall within this dead zone (before all the crazy stuff BG does). To me, that sounds like a problem, as the modifiers lack the necessary resolution to tell a 10th percentile person from a 90th percentile person.
    Because average is average. If you are of average intelligence for example there's a wide range where you're not illiterate but won't really gain any benefits (you'll probably never be able to follow the math of special relativity). From there down you go to illiterate, to slow, to helmet and a drool cup on the farthest end of the spectrum (where it actually becomes a handicap...ie. negative modifiers). One could make similar analogies on the up side where it's only after a certain point above average where it really gives you a measurable leg-up in most situations.

    Obviously it's an oversimplification due to the limits of 3d6 and d20 system but IMO it's just fine given the limitations of the system.

    kcwise
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    Heading off topic, but the math of special relativity is really not that hard, it is the ideas behind the math that seem counter-intuitive. General relativity, on the other hand, has crazy math...

    kcwise
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    hispls said:

    Because average is average. If you are of average intelligence for example there's a wide range where you're not illiterate but won't really gain any benefits (you'll probably never be able to follow the math of special relativity). From there down you go to illiterate, to slow, to helmet and a drool cup on the farthest end of the spectrum (where it actually becomes a handicap...ie. negative modifiers). One could make similar analogies on the up side where it's only after a certain point above average where it really gives you a measurable leg-up in most situations.

    Obviously it's an oversimplification due to the limits of 3d6 and d20 system but IMO it's just fine given the limitations of the system.

    Firstly, I would argue that there's a pretty broad range of utility between "illiterate" and "theoretical physicist". Like, say, figuring out how to fill out your tax return, or being able to apply game-theoretic principles to everyday strategic decisions. Both of those are feats of intelligence that are highly useful in a number of real-life situations, and which (probably; I haven't done a study) fall somewhere between the 10th and 90th percentiles.

    More importantly, though, I'd say if your game has, as one of its core systems, a non-repeated mechanism that produces identical results for 80% of cases, you're probably better off just not having that system in the first place. Why bother tracking intelligence if it doesn't do anything in the substantial majority of cases?

    kcwise[Deleted User]
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