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Destroying the last Bugbears in BG...

Aaah... There are no Bugbears in BG!

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But there are things that still BUG me in BG...

First though, allow me to inform you where I am coming from and my intention opening this discussion.

1) The Bugbears I refer to in this OP are not bugs with the game, as in, the game is not working as intended. I would write a bug report.

2) I think Beamdog have done a fantastic job. They have squashed the bugs, the terrible in game exploits and added some great content. I love this game.

3) I think it is okay to want more cake... because this metaphor will run all the way through this thread... And in part, we should be blameless if we are given such scrumptious cake... It is only natural that we should want more!

4) These are opinions. Opinions are always good for discussions. These are my bugbears, you may have your own, or think my bugbears to be figments... Lets just use mine as a starting point... So my Bugbears!

Bugbear 1
Have you noticed how enemy encounters scale up now with your experience! Wow! It keeps the challenge factor going. High Hedge had me running away from ghouls, Kobolds SWARM now in Firewine and as for bumping into bandits... OUCH!

Unfortunately the xp cap has not risen. You now hit it a lot sooner. Along with the extra content and xp there it is inevitable that the xp cap will be hit... I understand to keep the sweet spot of challenge in the game, this cap needs to be kept.

I have no way to kill this Bugbear efficiently without wrecking something else in the game... My only idea is to put in content and battles that only hit you when you go over the xp cap and make the end battle significantly harder if you are over the xp cap... (But wont that give you more xp again Anduin compounding the problem?) *sigh* At least we can make the start of BG2 explainable... We can lower your level by implying Irenicus stole that xp from you... Uuugh... I hate level 40 Bugbears...


Bugbear 2
Evil. No one gives you evil missions. Can we have someone send us on evil missions... I want evil missions. I want to kill peoples cows, conduct banditry against a wagon and generally work for a criminal master mind who wants to rain death and destruction on those around him/her for a measly power trip or a fistful of gold coins more... I always wished Centeol could send me on quests... She always seemed bitter enough to resent the world outside, and previously well connected enough to know of many powerful, good aligned people that turned their backs away from her... Yes. Evil needs readdressing, as you really need to stretch it sometimes in the role-playing stakes... The cat quest at dryad falls for instance... Why no option to eat the dead cat in front of the child?! Or make it into a humorous glove puppet? WHY!


Bugbear 3
Another bugbear named I WANT, I'm afraid... There are lots of unfinished content in BG. Can we not wrap these up now please. The company line is that Unfinished business will not be incorporated into the game as all the authors to the mods cannot be contacted... Okay. But can't we have these stories wrapped up by one of your fantastic writers? Can you not use them to hang further content into the game?

My one dream is to find Entar Silvershields son... Kagain just gives up... Although a journal response, this is Entar Silvershields son exists in the game... Yes UB does solve this. But I would like an official ending to the story. I would even like to give Entar his son back, only to deliver a doppleganger that stabs him to death, he is after all bumped off at the end... Oh... So many ways to make this an epic quest...

The NPC back stories also jar with me. Branwen can meet Tranzig, the man who petrified her quite quickly after freeing her, yet she will say nothing. NOTHING! Nothing when you find the note and nothing on meeting him. Oh how on meeting Tranzig I wish her to simply utter her famous lines "By Valkur's mighty Blade!" and just go for him... Not just stand around looking sheepish... So many dreams... So many denials...


Bugbear 4
IWD spells and loot not available in BG, BG loot not available in BG2 etc... Just annoys me that I cannot give my character in BG2 a mace of disruption or Magma Bulwark (used for oh so little time...) I know this is due to keeping things challenging... Perhaps give bonus merchants to those that own the other titles? You just want more and more cake Anduin, when will it end!


Bugbear 5
Selection sounds. Have you noticed during speech between the new characters and the old, when the old character stays silent (obviously because they have no voice recording of the new speech)... Well I would just like them to utter a selection sound... For example Viconia could use her drow speech or even "Surface dwellers can be so stupid" when talking to Rassad for instance...


Yes I want more cake... Forgive me.
[Deleted User]rufus_hobart[Deleted User]JuliusBorisovlunarshawneBlackravensmeagolheartCrevsDaakKilivitzlolienGrum

Comments

  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Only on an evil play through!
    JuliusBorisov
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    JuliusBorisovGrum
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    edited November 2014
    Bugbear 2 is my big (ungrateful and thoroughly unjustified) moan. We can after all build evil characters with thoroughly fleshed out motivations, so I feel that they should have their own meaningful quests that would therefore not be available to good-aligned characters and maybe lead to a completely different, alternative route to the finale.
    AnduinJuliusBorisovBlackravenlolien
  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,607
    There are pseudo bug bears in Dark Side of the Sword Coast
    AnduinCrevsDaaklolien
  • WithinAmnesiaWithinAmnesia Member Posts: 958
    edited November 2014
    "Bugbear 4
    IWD spells and loot not available in BG, BG loot not available in BG2 etc... Just annoys me that I cannot give my character in BG2 a mace of disruption or Magma Bulwark (used for oh so little time...) I know this is due to keeping things challenging... Perhaps give bonus merchants to those that own the other titles? You just want more and more cake Anduin, when will it end!
    "

    "BG loot not available in BG2."
    There is a way...


    Put Everything from B.G.E.E. that you want to keep into B.G.II.E.E. on your Exporting / Importing Character.
    There is a split second before the 'cut scene' when you 'load into the dungeon'.
    Pause the Game.
    Drop all of your B.G.E.E. Items.
    Unpause.
    WOOT, WOOT! LOOK WHO'S GOT ALL THE LOOT, LOOT!


    Anduin
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437

    "Bugbear 4

    IWD spells and loot not available in BG, BG loot not available in BG2 etc... Just annoys me that I cannot give my character in BG2 a mace of disruption or Magma Bulwark (used for oh so little time...) I know this is due to keeping things challenging... Perhaps give bonus merchants to those that own the other titles? You just want more and more cake Anduin, when will it end!
    "

    "BG loot not available in BG2."
    There is a way...


    Put Everything from B.G.E.E. that you want to keep into B.G.II.E.E. on your Exporting / Importing Character.
    There is a split second before the 'cut scene' when you 'load into the dungeon'.
    Pause the Game.
    Drop all of your B.G.E.E. Items.
    Unpause.
    WOOT, WOOT! LOOK WHO'S GOT ALL THE LOOT, LOOT!


    AFAIK, Beamdog closed this bug in BG2EE.
    AnduinCrevsDaakatcDavelolien
  • WithinAmnesiaWithinAmnesia Member Posts: 958
    AFAIK, Beamdog closed this bug in BG2EE.

    That... was my favourite exploit in any game... wow; I don't know what to say, that just rocked me.
    Anduin
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @WithinAmnesia‌ It is a well known exploit. One that I have used in the past. I am referring to BGEE only items not being available in BG2EE. If you used this exploit (there is a mod that puts it back in) items such as the mace if disruption will disappear.

    I quite like this exploit being plugged however... I'm so conflicted...
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    The main reason I miss the import-items exploit is that I used to import Tomes to boost the BG2 NPCs rather than use them all on CharName. +3 Wisdom could make a huge difference to Aerie or Viconia. +1 Con combines the best of Kagain with Korgan. +1 Str can boost a number of fighting folks to 19, etc. As it is, I figure all the books are belong to me, as I aspire towards godhood and stats to match, but it was always more fun to share the toys.

    My bugbear with BGEE and especially BG2EE is the focus on new evil content 'to fill the gap missing from before'. The lesser of the evil path was a feature for those of us who champion heroic games, a virtue that the gaming community seems to have left behind. And while I can share my toys with others in this playground, there seems to have been a rush to fill the evil content with much less of a focus on the light side. So while the evil paths are here to stay, I would prefer to not see even more focus from the EE team on the Evils, and balance out a bit more going forward. That said, a pitch away from the neutrals who can safely play both side and take all the toys would be nice.
    Anduinlolien
  • WithinAmnesiaWithinAmnesia Member Posts: 958
    edited November 2014
    "I quite like this exploit being plugged however... I'm so conflicted..."

    Why not a secret well hidden Konami Code? Hmmn, I feel a bit of a loss at this 'hidden exploit'... Why not have a feature where if one beats the game once they can then import all of their B.G.E.E. items? Why not? I loved that er, 'feature' so much.. It was like a *middle finger* to when the game tried to 'take your cool, soon to be replaced B.G. goods'. It was like a secret back door hidden underlying 'super power' like the force from star wars.. I loved the Crossbow of Accuracy, even though I used bows. I loved how one had to kill that guy in Baldur's Gate before he 'disappeared' to get his Eaglebow +2, those for me are the mysterious secrets that I find SOO rewarding. I find them in a game like Baldur's Gate where you can get unique rewards for doing the 'path least walked' like a 'true' R.P.G. that lets you loose. Yes it is one feature removed but it is the soul of the decision that sucks. I like to, say,.. Kill the bard in Baldur's Gate One on the Firewine Bridge to get the secret super hidden Spear. I love the Vampires revenge, I love the Big Metal Unit. I love the fact that you can get:
    A.) The Ring of Wizardry,
    B.) Ring of Protection,
    C.) a Diamond (starting gold),
    D.) Wand of Stunning,
    E.) Ankheg Plate Armour
    F.) a Frost Wand
    With only one character! At level one!
    (Plus the Import-all-of-the-training-party's-gear 'feature'.)
    Hell you could beat the game with the 'training room' N.P.C.'s if you knew you stuff.

    How cool is that! That is like that 'crack of secrets' that drives my R.P.G. machine !

    I love the fact that the original just let you do what ever only IF you had the wit and guile to find them [Exploit or not]! You were not forced to go down the path that the 'never-look-check' people go down. It feels more linear and that sucks: this is not a random complaint for it because this is Baldur's Gate; it is one of the most non-liner games that I can think of.

    You could say 'ef you' and do what you want. Want to do the main quest? No then just don't! Export on day 364 and do it again with all of your gear! It is Like running away from the cops! (I don't recommend it) It was chaotic and it was fun. As to like going off the map in a 3D game to find a shortcut or driving the tank through the tunnel in Halo 2. It was just Incredulous!

    For me this 'bugbear' is 'fun-nuke-bear'; it is like removing a class or an item slot.. it just sucks. Less choice and less paths to take, why remove something that you must track down to find; the people who do use it seem to want to find the secrets and exploit them anyway; let them non-canon solo kill drizzt for his +4 Mithril Chainmail and +3 and +5 Scimitars using a mechanic exploit! Let them keep there B.G.E.E. gear into B.G.IIE.E., let them beat B.G. one with the 'training N.P.C.'s.
    Hell, if one continued this kind of attitude and took it to the next extreme: One should then just make every player use only the canon N.P.C.'s for their personal party, and use only the pregenerated Abdel the canon party leader who is a neutral good human male fighter. Let's have the party only go to the story locations because those are 'exploits'.

    Do you see where I;m coming from? I stay the above sarcastically for I know that it would be wrong and that deleting that 'B.G. 1 items in B.G. 2' 'hidden feature' is of 'related nature'to those ridicule-ous 'suggestions' for that 'fix' removes depth, variety and fun from the game play choices that I make. I'm not alone in this endeavor, for by popular demand there is need for a mod to 'restore the removed feature'. My opinion counts too, I like secrets, I like things that need adventure to find.. exactly like almost everything in Baldur's Gate!

    Yes it may seem 'wrong' to keep the feature, but then why can one 'role' a 'wrong' an evil character and also why is it that the people must first choose with there own freewill to use this 'wrong' 'feature' in a non-linear virtual setting based R.P.G.? Also the 'wrong doer' must have to (mostly) do research to find the 'feature'.
    I ask this: how is removing a 'little known' non-linear 'feature' from those who choose with personal education and their own freewill within a non-linear R.P.G. the 'right' choice?

    I think that there was something lost from the original crazy team of Baldur's Gate to the original.. It is like as if their 'Crazy Gnome Developer' was lost or died somewhere after the original series.. Although the 'Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human and Dwarf Developers' are Great!

    R.I.P. 'Secret-Features' Gnome..

    [Mods here we come!, but it just sucks that it came to the point where one must 'restore' something that was there in a previous installment.. Also back to previous point: [It sucks] That I can no longer recommend it for a like-minded friend or blow their mind with my 'Tomes of intellect' and say 'no hacks' on Multiplayer... I'm just sad that the 'Crazy Gnome Died' with the New Baldur's Gate.]
    Blucher
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    A new bugbear is being born... IWDEE does have some great enhanced playability options. I really do like the max hp button for instance. Could BGEE get some of that goodness too in the future?
    GreenWarlockJuliusBorisov
  • JaceJace Member Posts: 193
    Bugbear 3 is like a sore wound. I hope next patch will make some extra restorations/resolutions.

    But my personal bugbear is that the new NPCs lack so many voice clips that the original NPCs had, including reputation-based comments, compliments, insults, responses to compliments and insults, and other small stuff like that. It's so strange that after a new NPC has had everything to tell to you, he/she is the most silent and boring person in the party.
    AedanAnduinlolien
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Anduin said:

    A new bugbear is being born... IWDEE does have some great enhanced playability options. I really do like the max hp button for instance. Could BGEE get some of that goodness too in the future?

    path 8.0 is going to add tha.. oh wait I don't know they said they are going to backport? sideport? the IWDEE features to BG. Sometime after the BG2EE 1.3 patch happens.

    Anyday now... Anyday...
    Anduin
  • molloymolloy Member Posts: 105
    At Bear 3: I don't know. I always found it highly amusing, how Kagain was giving up within minutes. At least he should leave the party if the party insists on working on the quest.

    Bear 2: As someone who can't get much enjoyment out of playing evil characters, I very much like the idea that people who do have to eat dead cats and the like.
    Anduinlolien
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    edited November 2014
    You must prove you are evil by devouring these kittens. Wait a minute, you're not actually gonna-OH BHAAL!
    Anduin
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    *Anduin munches on kitten*

    What?
    NimranHurricane
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    Nothing, nothing. *Nimran scurries away hurriedly, muttering under his breath something like 'ferrets are like miniature kittens in a way'.
    Anduin
  • WithinAmnesiaWithinAmnesia Member Posts: 958
    My Bare-bug is the new weapon proficiency that don't make logical sense. Get out of the stuff nerdy office and use a real sword against a real opponent development people! As you get better with a bastard sword you get better with a Two-Handed Sword and a Scimitar!

    For instance as I grew up they was a big thatch of bamboo-ish 'bushes' behind my elementary school that all of the kids used to grab and start breaking them over our backs! Well I got good a "Large Swords" and I could woop some serious ass with a bamboo stick. So then I play Wii fencing and again a woop serious ass at school using a one handed light saber. So with the 'new' proficiency system's logic, if I used "Two-Handed Swords" when in school, I should not be proficient with "Long Swords". Although that is clearly not the case.


    TL;DR

    The 'new' proficiency system sucks because it is not like real life!


    And here is why: It sucks because it is not like real life as was the 'old system' is. The 'new' system is stupid to over categorize melee weapons for most of them work off of the same ideas. A Long Sword works just like a Bastard Sword and historically a Bastard Sword is a Long Sword and the Long Sword is an Arming Sword but that is another can of worms entirely. You see, one would not say: Become a Grandmaster for over 50 years with a Long Sword and go "Oh No an unfamiliar weapon type the Bastard Sword! It is only slightly heavier than a Long Sword, and I have no idea how to use this blasted weapon; I am helpless!"

    It is stupid and I wish that it is changed in the future.
    [Deleted User]Grum
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    ZalsonWithinAmnesia
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    A mod will fix that for you... i.e. The alter weapon proficiency system tweak from here:

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/
    [Deleted User]WithinAmnesia
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I'm not entirely sure the old system worked perfectly, either, for two reasons. First, being good with one sword doesn't make you equally good with all similar swords. Yeah, being good with a two-handed sword is gonna make you better at using a longsword, but not as much better. My own fencing experience is mostly with foils. A little bit of that skill translates to fighting in general (that's what the game models as levels), but I'm definitely better at using related weapons, like epees and sabers, than I am at using, say, axes. I'm still much better with a foil than I am with an epee or saber, though. In practice, you'd want something like the GURPS defaulting system, where one skill can be used in place of other, similar skills at a penalty. That gets complicated, though, and I really can't advocate it.

    Second, the BG1 categories didn't necessarily make much sense. Let's say my character is really good with two-handed swords. Why is she automatically just as good with one-handed swords, but suddenly terrible when they drop below a certain length, and unable to competently wield a quarterstaff, even though quarterstaves are used basically the same way as two-handed swords? Why is a character trained in the use of battle axes also able to use throwing axes, even though those skills are about as far about as weapons get? Why is a character using shortswords and shields, in the style of the Roman legionnaires, also an expert knife thrower? None of which is to say that the BG2 proficiency system is flawless, but... it's not really any more flawed than the BG1 system.
    atcDaveelminsterAnduin
  • WithinAmnesiaWithinAmnesia Member Posts: 958
    edited April 2015
    I agree, Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast was flawed (e.g. if Axe * = Throwing Axe * then why not Large Sword * = Throwing Dagger / Missile Weapon *?) I Understand this but if I were to pick between the two I would go with the Original (big surprise, comment Is from the O.P.:-P) for it is *Closer* to a system that I would enjoy and would not 'erk' my real world experiences with 'melee weapons' *So much*. I agree that the Original Baldur's Gate Weapon Proficiency System makes little sense in areas but I will be damned if I will be convinced that the [overly nerdy, dice sucking and unrealistic] Baldur's Gate II Proficiency System is a better system let alone a successor to the one in the Original Baldur's Gate. Side Note: Baldur's Gate II's Weapon Proficiency System is one of the many aspects that got me loving and replaying the Original Baldur's Gate compared to my Collector's Edition of Baldur's Gate II. The Original Baldur's Gate just had a bit more love and a bit more realistic adventure 'feeling' in its design decisions as a whole; not that it was more polished or anything but I that it was a more 'robust' of an adventuring experience when compared to Baldur's Gate II. Anyway I digress. I wish that there was a 'wake system' where one gains additional 'spin off proficiency' with like-operating weapon Proficiencies when one trains with a certain weapon type; akin to real life.



    TL;DR

    Baldur's Gate II Weapon Proficiency System is still stupid and the Original Baldur's Gate is still better but it is still flawed and you and I could come up with a better system; but we should work with what we got now.



    P.S. also I got to fit this in somewhere: The Icewind Dale Proficiency System is pretty cool too but it is not perfect either. I find it baffling how such er, 'simple steps in common sense' became wonderous mysteries to game designers hunched over a keyboard and eerie monitor typing away like a creature akin to Golem from the Lord of the Rings series with little 'real world' interaction and work hours far too long locked away like a immortal demi-zombie inside a crypt like office.

    Final Closing Statements:

    Come On! A Two-handed Sword is not that frickin' different from a freakin' Bastard Sword, they are practically 90% the same efin' weapon type you freakin' flat-bottomed, pencil fingered, square-eyed, anorexic cloistered 'gaem derpelovmint' office monkeys!!! (Although good job with Baldur's Gate!)
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    Before this thread goes completely off the direction the OP wanted it to go, I'm closing it.

    If you want to discuss proficiencies system, you can always make it in another thread.
    lolienAnduin
This discussion has been closed.