Why do Poor Enemies have Expensive Weapons? *Great Weapon Videos*
WithinAmnesia
Member Posts: 958
Why does a struggling Ireiaborian peasant-turned-bandit with only lowly leather armour have a long sword that he or she could not realistically afford?
Watch these videos about cheap weapons for the poor and inexperienced in the medieval ages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN7s1Uh8rhc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJAykL20Sc4
Think about it, swords are much harder to make than an Axe, Hammer or Spear yet how many Poor enemies do you see with a Long sword, Bastard sword and even Short Swords? Practically all desperate bandits that have so little training that they die with a maximum of two arrow hits yet they all carry expensive, metal extensive, labour and craftsmanship intensive Long Swords. I have been playing a Badass of a game called Mount and Blade: Warband and all of the poor down-on-their-luck combatants strictly do not have expensive 'anything' let alone a 'noble's weapon': the Long Sword. One sees re-purposed farming and hunting tools and makeshift armours for these lowly untrained malnourished combatants. This makes sense in a real worldly setting that in most cases these impoverished people cannot afford a proper meal let alone a luxurious Long Sword only affordable for the rich and influential.
I get it, in Baldur's Gate swords are cheap and [wait a second on that thought].. Stop typing and fire up Baldur's Gate and go to an Inn. What does the "8 Gold" "Royal" accommodation say within its description text?
-"A truly luxurious experience, at an equally exorbitant price. Beds filled with the softest down, draped with the finest Calimshan silks and linens. Nearly as restful as a week in a lesser room, though who but royalty could afford the cost."
So if only "Royalty" can afford an 8 Gold Lions room according to our Setting's economy, than how can masses of peasants-turned-bandit possibly afford a luxurious Long Sword with a incredulous price of 22 Gold Lions (with an average reputation)?
I hear you say "they stole them" quietly in your corner. Okay who from? Commoners don't have Long Swords nor do even the odd ruffian. Than who has these swords? Blacksmiths, Soldiers and Caravan Guards and Beings that could easily kill a poor malnourished peasant-bandit with ~8 Hit Points.
Okay so where do they get the Long Swords? "The Iron throne!"
-They are rife with the Iron Plague of the Sword Coast.. Their Employers would not cripple their own forces.
"They stole them from Graveyards and Buildings!"
-Then why is their not one reference of this nor a case of disgruntled towns people offering a single quest to adventurers to rid of these unhonourable thieves stealing all of their expensive weapons en mass?
"Near the end of Medieval Europe (Which 90% of AD&D is based on and deep in ancient lore Faerûn was once connected to earth) Plate armour and Swords were not uncommon for lowly foot soldiers to have so maybe bandits could have Longswords?"
-Plate Mail Armour in Medival Faerûn Costs 900 Gold Lions, no lowly soldier in this setting can afford Platemail Armour that costs 900 Gold Lions and with that said I am very surprised to see the low price and high amount of swords that are used by all ranks of guards and soldiers in Baldur's Gate when historically in Medieval Europe Axes, Polearms and or Blunt Weapons would be more cost effective for their ruling powers to equip them with; and thus 'nine times out of ten' the ruling parties bought just that for their standing forces: Axes, Polearms and or Blunt Weapons (secondary weapons such as daggers were mostly financed by the soldiers themselves). Look at what most of the Scottish and English troops were issued with respectively in The Battle of Flodden http://www.flodden.net/pages/tour/armed-for-the-fight . An interesting point is that when close melee happened, the over whelming majority of Scotts suffered direly from having no significant close quarters standard issue weapon and were thus massacred after their situational pike formations fell apart.
Lets face it, it was a bad judgement call from the developer who added Long Swords on the menu for the lowly peasant tuned bandit.
*Bam, Point Rekt -Interception was Successful*
Watch these videos about cheap weapons for the poor and inexperienced in the medieval ages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN7s1Uh8rhchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJAykL20Sc4Think about it, swords are much harder to make than an Axe, Hammer or Spear yet how many Poor enemies do you see with a Long sword, Bastard sword and even Short Swords? Practically all desperate bandits that have so little training that they die with a maximum of two arrow hits yet they all carry expensive, metal extensive, labour and craftsmanship intensive Long Swords. I have been playing a Badass of a game called Mount and Blade: Warband and all of the poor down-on-their-luck combatants strictly do not have expensive 'anything' let alone a 'noble's weapon': the Long Sword. One sees re-purposed farming and hunting tools and makeshift armours for these lowly untrained malnourished combatants. This makes sense in a real worldly setting that in most cases these impoverished people cannot afford a proper meal let alone a luxurious Long Sword only affordable for the rich and influential.
I get it, in Baldur's Gate swords are cheap and [wait a second on that thought].. Stop typing and fire up Baldur's Gate and go to an Inn. What does the "8 Gold" "Royal" accommodation say within its description text?
-"A truly luxurious experience, at an equally exorbitant price. Beds filled with the softest down, draped with the finest Calimshan silks and linens. Nearly as restful as a week in a lesser room, though who but royalty could afford the cost."
So if only "Royalty" can afford an 8 Gold Lions room according to our Setting's economy, than how can masses of peasants-turned-bandit possibly afford a luxurious Long Sword with a incredulous price of 22 Gold Lions (with an average reputation)?
I hear you say "they stole them" quietly in your corner. Okay who from? Commoners don't have Long Swords nor do even the odd ruffian. Than who has these swords? Blacksmiths, Soldiers and Caravan Guards and Beings that could easily kill a poor malnourished peasant-bandit with ~8 Hit Points.
Okay so where do they get the Long Swords? "The Iron throne!"
-They are rife with the Iron Plague of the Sword Coast.. Their Employers would not cripple their own forces.
"They stole them from Graveyards and Buildings!"
-Then why is their not one reference of this nor a case of disgruntled towns people offering a single quest to adventurers to rid of these unhonourable thieves stealing all of their expensive weapons en mass?
"Near the end of Medieval Europe (Which 90% of AD&D is based on and deep in ancient lore Faerûn was once connected to earth) Plate armour and Swords were not uncommon for lowly foot soldiers to have so maybe bandits could have Longswords?"
-Plate Mail Armour in Medival Faerûn Costs 900 Gold Lions, no lowly soldier in this setting can afford Platemail Armour that costs 900 Gold Lions and with that said I am very surprised to see the low price and high amount of swords that are used by all ranks of guards and soldiers in Baldur's Gate when historically in Medieval Europe Axes, Polearms and or Blunt Weapons would be more cost effective for their ruling powers to equip them with; and thus 'nine times out of ten' the ruling parties bought just that for their standing forces: Axes, Polearms and or Blunt Weapons (secondary weapons such as daggers were mostly financed by the soldiers themselves). Look at what most of the Scottish and English troops were issued with respectively in The Battle of Flodden http://www.flodden.net/pages/tour/armed-for-the-fight . An interesting point is that when close melee happened, the over whelming majority of Scotts suffered direly from having no significant close quarters standard issue weapon and were thus massacred after their situational pike formations fell apart.
Lets face it, it was a bad judgement call from the developer who added Long Swords on the menu for the lowly peasant tuned bandit.
*Bam, Point Rekt -Interception was Successful*
Post edited by WithinAmnesia on
11
Comments
Edit: One thing to add: I like Baldur's Gate for I have years and years to work on it and I am not rushed by a deadline to make it ship and be (the evil word) 'profitable'. So I just Merrily saunter my way through ideas and concepts as to how to make the game better. So if you have any ideas, just throw the here about where Baldur's Gate could be improved. Possibly More Axes and Clubs for Bandits? Maybe Hobgoblins should have more melee variety than just Bastard Sword, Bastard Sword, Bastard Sword, Bastard Sword, Bastard Sword, Bastard Sword? Etc.:-)
But as for the remainder of your points, Except that the bandits typically team up with others of their ilk for an attack, and the game clearly states that nobles and merchants are having just as much (moreso, in fact) trouble with bandits as anyone else. Poor peasants throughout the game complain about bandits and ask for you to rid their town of them.
Besides, you yourself often find some very expensive equipment just lying around - i.e.: a +1 halberd in a cave east of the Gnoll Fortress, or Rashad's Talon just lying around the spider area. Not only that, but your own ragtag group of adventurers is capable of stealing some very expensive items even very early in the game (i.e.: at night in Taerum's Smithy).
But in general, I agree with you.
When you have xvarts, kobolds, and the lesser races running around with metallic weapons, it can be assumed that Toril has advanced knowledge of weaponsmithing that allows the lowest smith to produce a rudimentary form of edge weapons.
Bandits are well supplied because they have been robbing iron shipments months before you even set foot outside of candlekeep.
As stated, it started with elite black talons, and peasants and lowly bandits Kline in afterwards once equipping large groups would be benefical.
If you want to make a more realstic ecomony mod for the game no one will stop you.
By the way, really cool videos. I usually run a low-ish magic campaign in my PnP games, and I like to incorporate stuff like this (e.g. - you're unlikely to find a blacksmith capable of making high-quality swords in a rural village, but he probably will have some decent axes and spears.)
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/40959/what-is-the-value-of-gold-in-fr/p1
Heck, slashing through metal armour was a pretty implausible strategy. The biggest reason proper slashing swords cost so much wasn't just the volume of metal (an axehead can weigh 2lbs pretty easily for a fighting axe, and a two-handed bearded axehead would weigh more than a sword), but the type of metal (heavily worked steel vs wrought iron) and skill required to make said steel in a large enough quantity. Actually forging a sword for a skilled blacksmith isn't much different from a top quality dagger.
Note, the cutler was a specialized seperate profession... a blacksmith did rough work, and a cutler polished and prettied up the sword. They also might do sharpening, but not always. Gladius bypassed many of these issues by being oversized daggers, and were usually edged with steel rather than solid steel. Much easier to make a viable sword if you can make it sturdier!
When you get down to it, for an 'average' type wage really couldn't afford to crash at a hotel in Faerun every night, but most people in NA can't really afford to live in a decent hotel, vs just renting a similar size apartment. $60-100 nightly is very high rent.
Average people couldn't afford to travel much in the past, unless they sold everything to emmigrate.
it's easy to understand that 1gp prices are an abstraction for lower denominations and that prices of tens of thousands must be a representation of higher denominations. that indicates that the game's currency is somehow in the middle but it's gold so it can't be. the explanation is that it's just gold because it's a trope - dragons hoard gold, you find chests full of gold etc. in reality, the GPs aren't really gold coins, you could treat that as small fractions of a gold coin...maybe pennies.
but longswords should still be much more expensive, at least a 100gp. all other weapons should be a lot more expensive too. but armor and most other items actually make sense, if you see the prices that way, they suddenly start making a lot of sense.
Secondly in BG1 they aren't peasants turned bandits. They are mercenaries imported by the iron throne to act like bandits. If they are properly kitted out with swords, that is why.
So, most either never traveled, or traveled either in a caravan or a pilgramage. Note, most people were serfs.
Anyways, the price for the cheapest room is perhaps 5 to 10x too high, and the Royal is 5x too low maybe. This is a convinience for the devs, and is really much better than adding in Silver, which is not an adventurers currency. Commons deal in coppers, and DMs that give out Dragon's Hordes full of copper are overthrown, as it effectively weighs 100 times as much AND takes up presumeably 3 or 400 times as much volume.
Most of the ingame prices are vaguely based on standard pricing, but I agree about the Inns. OOTS had a funny comic about commoners raising the price of everything to fleece unsuspecting adventurers.
Your points hinge on mostly individual cases that uncommonly can happen, not the over whelming majority of cases my friend. If your ideas were true to reality within the game setting, then everyone would indeed have 1 Gold Lion Long Swords. Although it would make more sense that there would be a mixture of Axes, Hammers, Daggers, Short Swords and Spears along with said 'looted Long Swords'. It just makes little practical sense that every bandit has successfully raided a rich person and thus has a Long Sword raiding trophy with not one single Bandit being unsuccessful in this endeavour when you encounter them. Even if they hunted in packs they still would not have truck loads of Long Swords. If that was the case where Bandits killed so many people that they were literately swamped with long swords, that would be a full out military class action invasion of the western heartlands, not a traveling hindrance.
Think about it, you are practically saying that all Level One Bandits have hunted in packs, at again at Level One and successfully looted a hoard of Long Swords from the rich guarded caravans AND this has happened for every single bandit with not one lowly bandit having a hand axe, working hammer, dagger nor hunting spear and or re-purposed peasant farming sickle.
I just would not make that defense as my only argument but well enough to you @SharGuidesMyHand . I do understand that at least some 'successful' Bandits should indeed have expensive weapons for being successful at raiding such expensive weapons from the rich but surely not all bandits are successful at having such trophies en mass and surely not every rich person traveling within the Sword Coast wields a Long Sword to be raided. I would also think that a successful pack-hunting bandit with raiding trophies would have a bit more raiding experience than being nothing more than a 2-hit level one lowly road bandit.
Yes there are treasures laying around but look where they are.. In ~90% of the cases they are 'laying around' in very dangerous locations and if every bandit was a treasure hunter I doubt that they would be still labelled as bandits but rather start-up evil adventures.
The game specifically says that the bandits are imported. A commoner at the friendly arm inn also says that the ireibar bandits drove him out of banditry as well as all of the other local bandits.
Imported mercenaries are more likely to have swords than local farmers turned bandits.
Also friend if the Iron Throne Bandits of the Sword Coast are not equivalent to and rather above the lowly influence and power of a peasant-turned-bandit, then why is it that they are still at level one? This is strange considering that the Iron Throne has a Luxurious budget that the can afford Luxurious Long Swords over simple '1 Gold Lion' Daggers yet they cannot afford bandits that wouldn't die when something roars a swift fart in their general direction?
Also I get your idea of 'possible' mass production of luxurious weapons, but when I raided the Iron Throne's compounds I found little conclusive hard evidence of Long Sword Factories.. Even in the Dwarven Mines underneath Cloakwood, there was but a small black smithing chamber; a far-cry from a far-beyond medival technology *wink* Henry Ford-esc Long Sword Production Factory..
Although a good 'Poke-into-the-fire' there @Delvarian friend.
Bloody Owlbears...