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A duel between Kangaxx vs FireKraag vs Irenicus

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Comments

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    1. Yeah, except there's no indication that the slayer form is equivalent in power to a real avatar. We only know that it's the form Bhaal's avatar takes, and that the Bhaalspawn can take the form as a result of their divine connection to him. As I've said, the only indication of the limits of this particular ability are those expressed in-game, either by the PC or by Irenicus. They're all we have to go on.
    2. I'm not sure what the relevance of this is, but... sure? Except note that Elminster being Chosen of Mystra indicates that he can handle a fair amount of divine energy. How this compares to Irenicus is unclear, and frankly not necessarily all that relevant.
    3. Sure. I'm not arguing that the slayer has no powers that are above the mortal level at all. I'm arguing that there's no indication that it has demigod-like powers that would make Elminster's entire arsenal irrelevant.
    4. This is true, but I'm not sure it makes much sense to compare Elminster to a hypothetical future version of Irenicus. Yes, we can imagine that, has Irenicus survived, he might have become more powerful. In fact, had he survived, he would have continued his plan to become a god and all possible non-divine comparisons would be totally ridiculous. Which kind of renders the whole exercise moot.

    elminster
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    1. Neither PC nor Irenicus have much opportunity for experimentation and testing, especially Irenicus. There is actually evidence, including use of the term Avatar, and its shown repeatedly to be immensely powerful. It literally destroys the PC to use the ability, something divine energy is known to do in Faerun. Only gods have divine energy, we're not talking about casting a cleric spell.
    2. Chosen aren't as strong as you're suggesting. They can handle energy being given/lent by the diety, but Slayer for example is not being 'monitored' by a god, ie it can supply enough divine energy to kill a mortal quite easily. Meaning its plenty strong clearly, and divine.
    3. Erm, its EXPLICITLY stated that its very much superior to a mortal.
    4. Nobody said the excercise isn't pointless. Also, why wouldn't I compare Irenicus at his best in this? Irenicus gets Slayer while he's still 'living', in Hell, and that is not hypothetical.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,583
    @DreadKhan I believe PC can use slayer form indefinitely if he is immune to magic damage during that 8th round (the one with lethal damage)

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    DreadKhan said:

    It literally destroys the PC to use the ability, something divine energy is known to do in Faerun.

    This isn't explicitly true. During the Avatar Crisis, Midnight carries a large portion of Mystra's divinity and later ascends herself. She can certainly handle this divine energy. As can Irenicus, obviously. I think the reason why it hurts the PC is that they aren't using their full power to control the avatar. Some divinity has gone to the mortal form of the PC by way of the stat boosts you gain in the Hell Trials, and some power goes to the Pocket Plane power. Probably the entire portion that is regained from Irenicus, whereas that portion on Irenicus was entirely focused on the Slayer-power.

    It also speaks volumes about how powerful Mystra's Chosen are, since both Midnight and Elminster are one of them. Chosen of different Gods are not equal measured by power. The more powerful the god, the more powerful the Chosen. Just think about Cadderly Bonaduce(or google, if you don't know him), who was a Chosen of Deneir, a Greater Deity as Mystra was. He kind of defeated the Ghost King, who was probably comparable in power to the Tarrasque.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Yannir, Time of Troubles only had 2 divinities, Helm and Ao... Mystras power wasn't what it was normally. Also, iirc she doesn't really get too much out of the deal at the time. Its not like she turned into a big ball of magical energy and trounced her enemies.

    Chosen aren't anywhere near a demi-god, and most gods of a similar tier have similar powers for their chosen. Chosen of Bane vs Chosen of Mystra are pretty similar. Chosen status adds almost nothing for an extremely high level wizard. In the books, Elminster was Chosen because he was exceptional, not the other way around.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,884
    OK, I'm confused here.. When you vs characters, even those in games. Lore and feats is usually what is use to determine power level and capability, but people are using game mechanics.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859

    OK, I'm confused here.. When you vs characters, even those in games. Lore and feats is usually what is use to determine power level and capability, but people are using game mechanics.

    Tbh, I suspect we're just pissing on a wall here. Also, we might be nerdier around here than you are used to; if we can find concrete stats that prove things, that ameliorates the advantage of popularity/rhetoric.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,884
    DreadKhan said:

    OK, I'm confused here.. When you vs characters, even those in games. Lore and feats is usually what is use to determine power level and capability, but people are using game mechanics.

    Tbh, I suspect we're just pissing on a wall here. Also, we might be nerdier around here than you are used to; if we can find concrete stats that prove things, that ameliorates the advantage of popularity/rhetoric.
    Nerdier? Comic fans have powercharts and grids for characters ontop of what gets released by sources. You can't get nerdier than us.its confusing because the OP ser no real diameters; are you going by game mechanics or lore? Are they bloodlusted, or are safeties (shut up) on? Is plot armor allowed? BFR? So on and so on.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Yes, DnD fans are nerdier... we have actual made up numbers for everything. Marvel does kinda have suggestions of power level, but longer term fans definstely will notice the power of plot armour.

    For DnD nerds, most such questions have easy answers, but these two mages are pretty equal for the most part, so we nit-pick.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,215
    *Sensing the opportunity elminster declares himself the King of the Nerds*

    wubbleDreadKhanYannir
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    elminster said:

    *Sensing the opportunity elminster declares himself the King of the Nerds*

    Unfortunately like the UK nerds don't actually allow their monarch to tell them what to do so than won't get you very far.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,215
    edited July 2015
    Well...I already have a cool hat anyways so a crown would have never worked regardless. Not sure you can really be king without a crown. :p

    wubble
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I dunno, I always thought the true symbol of kingship was a scimitar thrown by a drowning Habib Khalid Achmed Allafif while he's wearing the girdle of masculinity/femininity.

    elminsterwubble
  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    This got really in depth and lot of good points...just hit me thogh Irenicus in slayer form is not really irenicus as he just "stole" it form PC...more fair would be just as lvl 30 mage which probably trumps kangaxx and firkragg still (especially the dragon)...nobody can beat the winged

    wubble
  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    On Elminster vs. Irenicus: Elminster is like the Gandalf of the Forgotten Realms, and a bit of a Mary Sue; ain't-no-way-ain't-no-how Irenicus would defeat him. Heck, Abdel-freaking-Adrian defeated Irenicus...

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Abdel_Adrian

    wubbleelminster
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 94
    Arunsun said:

    @DreadKhan I believe PC can use slayer form indefinitely if he is immune to magic damage during that 8th round (the one with lethal damage)

    Nope. (Unless EE explicitly changed this.) Of course, if you're willing to suffer 0 reputation you can change back to human form and back to Slayer form indefinitely, but there's going to be a window of vulnerability during the change.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,583
    edited July 2015
    @AnonymousHero actually I just tested it with no resistance, I suffered damage normally, then I tried with the protection from magical energy from the Cloak of the Dark Moon which gives 100 resistance to magical damage, and here was the result:
    No damage from any of the waves but the last one which is the lethal one, and the lethal one actually dealt only 30damage instead of 1500
    Since that I suffered 0 damage (no other damage wave coded given the last one is supposed to kill you)

    I just tested with other resistance to magic damage (belt of innertial barrier + the level 8 mage spell that gives 75%) and suffered damage normally despite 125% resistance

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,808
    I tried using Slayer Form with Protection from Magical Energy in vanilla and I still died. I have no idea why.

  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 94
    Yeah, vanilla has a kill effect (which isn't straight damage-based, not sure if immunity to death magic will stop it, or...) -- but @Arunsun 's test suggests that it's been changed...?

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,583
    edited July 2015
    @semiticgod @AnonymousHero I just said that it was protection from magical energy from cloak of the dark moon, and this one is particular:
    The normal spell gives you 50% protection from magical damage, this one gives (and sets it to) 100% (for 4 hours, 3 times per day, not OP at all), so I guess it is actually different from normal protection, from code point of view
    The last wave is not a kill effect but a 1500 magical damage that cannot be resisted (except apparently via Cloak of the Dark Moon)

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,215
    edited July 2015
    Protection from Magic Energy will also block it. It gives 100% immunity. Pretty confident that at one point I tested it in vanilla bg2 and it did the same. Its writing though (in the vanilla game) may not reflect what it actually does.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,808
    @Arunsun: I heard you. But in vanilla, Protection from Magical Energy, the spell itself, gives 100% immunity for 1 turn per level, not 50%. I know because it completely negates Horrid Wilting in vanilla, and I've seen the 100 value on the Record screen many times. So my character had just as much resistance to magic damage in vanilla, with PfME, as yours did in EE, with the cloak: 100%.

    @AnonymousHero: No instant death effects in Slayer Change. As @Arunsun said, it's just 1500 damage.

    Speaking of which, I notice precisely one odd thing about that 1500 damage effect. In the 2nd dice/level limit area, we have the number "4294967295" in DLTCEP, which does not appear in most damage effects. In Near Infinity the number is -1. But I don't know why that would change anything, and evidently it doesn't work that way in EE.

  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 94
    edited July 2015
    Hum. That's weird, I could have sworn that I got killed once even with PfME (100% MDR, as you say @semiticgod ) active. Maybe it's just my memory that's off... this was years and years ago, as I normally choose not to use Slayer form.

    EDIT: (Dons programmer hat...): Oh, yeah the 4-billion vs. -1 thing is probably just because DLTCEP does not treat values as *signed* long, but rather unsigned long. (The -1 is represented in what's called two's complement.)

  • SciobthaSciobtha Member Posts: 54
    We also have to note that deities picked their chosen for more reasons than just ability to handle the energy. Bhaal did not choose irenicus, he just went bonkers complements of the elves. That obsession distracted him and gave a fatal flaw that any mage could use as an edge against him, Elminster excels at reading his opponents and making unexpected and effective tactical decisions.

    Also as noted, irenicus could only use the slayer form in the remains of Bhaals plane, while using a piece of the PC's divine soul obtained through some murder of various thieves whose souls could conceivably have tainted the entire process of transfer, which irenicus could only counter through an act of will. The slayer form also depends on being within melee reach of its target, Elminster has plenty of tricky magicses to ensure he never got close. Flight, for example.

    Nope, I would never bet against Forgotten Realms elminster in a match against Jon
    -aleth ;P
    Irenicus.

    Not to mention that of the two, only Elminster survived his unplanned visit to the lower planes.

    wubbleDragonKingsemiticgoddess
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