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Jaheira and Aerie

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  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,659
    edited August 2015
    Nimran said:

    @DragonKing Hmm, I have to admit, part of me kinda wants to see that...

    It's actually quite fun to watch, but until you're for e to choose, and then the venom dies down a bit. I personally feel we are force to choose a bit too early, but then again I just love watching Viconia roast people verbally.

    Despite my affection for polite discourse, I have to admit I do enjoy watching people argue.

    @DragonKing, you are my favorite angry black man. :wink: And I apologize for invoking such a stupid stereotype.

    Some people see Aerie as whiny and irritating. Some people see her as a gentle soul. And some of us see her as a Cleric/Mage. But I think we can all agree that... uh...

    Hm..

    Well, I'm sure we can agree on something. How about "we love cookies?"

    Hey, hey! I'm not angry, I am a shy delicate flower, like Aerie. My current play through of ToB with my Sorcerer (which I'm never going to seem to finish) she plays a very important role of support, buffing my team. I just wish healing was much more affective in the middle of combat.

    I more then likely won't pick her for my third play through, I'm either going to try Jaheira or this mod I found to romance Nalia.

    Also, all hail chocolate cookies!!

    .

    semiticgod
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    @Dragonking Because I was pretty tired after a long day writing that post, not everything was directed at what you said and I *may* have misinterpreted some of what you wrote, but your initial post was not as calm and collected as you have been. Not everything in the post was directed at you. The parts where I talked about what you talked about and directly answered you were; As I did write up a general stereotype/typical stuff on slating Aerie. That was my bad, I didn't section up the paragraphs properly or use quotations as I was incredibly tired.

    Oh god, are we really going to open that Racial History book? I mean, I'm more than happy to discuss historical slavery, if that's what you want to do. There are different forms of slavery, Aerie's is pretty low-key but it is still slavery and she was still enslaved and kept against her wishes and against her will. Comparing it to real life scenarios of such extreme slavery, is ridiculous. Though, Circus slavery does actually happen in real life, which would've been a better comparison. Bringing up that Racial History Book card is absurd, honestly, but again, if that's what you want to discuss, by all means.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,085
    Just because he's black doesn't mean he's playing the race card.

    It's a coincidence.

    DragonKing
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    @Semiticgod Never mentioned anything about him having a skin colour and how that has anything to do with this conversation. But thank you for pointing out that irrelevant fact.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,085
    edited August 2015
    @Icecreamtub: I'm being silly. Hence the nonsensical phrase "It's a coincidence." @DragonKing pointed out in another thread that he was repelled as a black man by the blatant racism demonstrated against Viconia, and I sympathize. It's no fun to see an ugly facet of our own world reflected in fantasy. Games should be places where we can escape from the darkness of our own world. I imagine it's particularly frustrating since it was taken so casually by the in-game dialog. You're not even allowed a dialog option to protest it, as DragonKing pointed out.

    For the record, I don't think anybody is playing any cards here... neither the race card nor the "Racial History Book card." And no, I'm not saying you brought up skin color here.

    Sheesh... I kill Valygar one time, and suddenly everybody thinks I'm a bigot.

    EDIT: Well, fine. Seven times. Whatever. But it was self-defense.

    DragonKingNimran
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited August 2015
    @semiticgod I got the feeling it wasn't too serious.

    That's one of the reasons why I like Baldur's Gate so much. Every character has something you can relate to or at least sympathize with and understand. Like Valygar's hatred for Mages and his family, or Viconia's constant racial abuse. It's real, it's educational. And I don't think a lot of people actually realise that.

    Sure, Baldur's Gate is fucking grim and a very dark setting, but I like games like that. These days, I find games rarely hit the dark note like Baldur's Gate does. I don't want to be coddled with cutesy stuff and darker plots being avoided so not to break the minds of their players.

    Hey, who doesn't kill Valygar? It's easier than dragging around some really boring character. I mean, I do have a soft spot for Valygar, but I don't think he was meant to be anything beyond a quick slot to grab an item; At least he feels like that lol. Plus, given I roll a lot of magical characters, it never feels right to take Valygar into my party. That or I just don't find any viable reason to pick him up, he doesn't offer a lot and I do believe Minsc beats him in the Ranger department. Not to mention he sort of feels like a closet homosexual, and Viconia doesn't shy away from teasing him for it, which I find hilarious. That whole dialogue is pure gold.

    Edit: iirc Valygar doesn't even have that much dialogue, I think it's only a quick few lines here and there? I've never taken Valygar beyond the Mage Sphere after one play-through with him as he seemed really rushed and quite bland for most of the game. But that was back in BG2 Vanilla, so they've probably fixed his Dialogue scripts up a bit to get more of the ones you most likely missed back in Vanilla. I'll have to take him and see. I'm currently debating keeping him in one of my Single Player games as I need to pick up the loot for my CHARNAME Bard.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,085
    edited August 2015
    Valygar is actually a pretty excellent NPC. Mechanically, he's a strong damage dealer, able to use Celestial Fury very well early on, and his backstabs benefit from specialization bonuses, allowing him to chunk enemy mages pretty reliably on the first round of combat.

    In terms of personality, I think there's some depth that doesn't show up very well. His voice acting is weak, and his in-game selection lines are kind of dull and unconvincing, but his banters show a very thoughtful, intellectual man. I particularly like his discussion of atheism with Keldorn... though I find it disturbing that a guy like him is destined for the wall of the faithless. He deserves better, and Faerun's cosmology is pretty unkind to souls without gods to take them in. At least we've got Kelemvor instead of Myrkul. Myrkul deserved to get demoted to artifact status.

    I don't think Valygar's gay, really. I think he's just not sexually aggressive. He hasn't shown any female love interests in the unmodded game, but then, he hasn't shown any male love interests, either. Some men can be very picky when it comes to partners. I'm an example myself. I've taken an interest in only half a dozen women in my entire life! It's not a stretch that Valygar just isn't on the prowl.

    I'm not big on traditional gender roles, male or female. My reaction to Viconia insulting my manhood would be a lot different from Valygar's... I'd be more likely to just laugh in Viconia's face.

    Nimran
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,659
    edited August 2015

    @Icecreamtub: I'm being silly. Hence the nonsensical phrase "It's a coincidence." @DragonKing pointed out in another thread that he was repelled as a black man by the blatant racism demonstrated against Viconia, and I sympathize. It's no fun to see an ugly facet of our own world reflected in fantasy. Games should be places where we can escape from the darkness of our own world. I imagine it's particularly frustrating since it was taken so casually by the in-game dialog. You're not even allowed a dialog option to protest it, as DragonKing pointed out.

    No! No! No! Don't, this still annoys me and I've beat the game with that character. I couldn't even wild surge him into a frog or squirrel, and believe me I was trying!

    For the record, I don't think anybody is playing any cards here... neither the race card nor the "Racial History Book card." And no, I'm not saying you brought up skin color here.

    Sheesh... I kill Valygar one time, and suddenly everybody thinks I'm a bigot.

    EDIT: Well, fine. Seven times. Whatever. But it was self-defense.

    Just because he's black doesn't mean he's playing the race card.

    It's a coincidence.

    I laughed harder at this then I probably should have.


    I don't think Valygar's gay, really. I think he's just not sexually aggressive. He hasn't shown any female love interests in the unmodded game, but then, he hasn't shown any male love interests, either. Some men can be very picky when it comes to partners. I'm an example myself. I've taken an interest in only half a dozen women in my entire life! It's not a stretch that Valygar just isn't on the prowl.

    I'm not big on traditional gender roles, male or female. My reaction to Viconia insulting my manhood would be a lot different from Valygar's... I'd be more likely to just laugh in Viconia's face.

    Wait what? You do know if you go to the government district with him and Viconia together, after she insults him, he gets hit on by a noblewoman which he starts to flirt with back right? It literally leads him and Viconia to fight.

  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited August 2015
    @semiticgod Well, from my perspective, although a Stalker(?) Kit, he's meant to be a Ranger using bows? I mean, I get that he can use other weapons and dominates other mages, which is obvious enough. I don't know... Never saw much use for Valygar myself. Just wished he'd been more interesting, I feel like they could've done a lot more with Valygar than what he has. Ah, I never took Keldorn, though I've heard of that banter.

    Oh yes absolutely, he's very intellectual and the writing is good whenever you get some from Valygar, that's mostly why I'm a little upset he didn't get more dialogue and hence why he's just a quick quest for me. I'll agree his voice acting and in-game selection lines are pretty weak, the reason to why I call him fairly bland. Well, iirc Valygar doesn't think highly of Mages or the Gods, so I assume from his views that he is an old-age Atheist?

    Well, given the way the dialogue is written very specifically with Viconia and the way he resolves it, does not give me the impression he's Straight. Someone of Valygar's intelligence wouldn't resort to that kind of thing so quickly, but hey, that's just my take on it all. It's just the way he reacts so quickly and draws his weapon to silence her. I mean I get he flirts with the girl, but it just seems so random and more like he's trying to get a quick beard. Maybe I'm just trying to make a joke out of it and see something that's not there, haha.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,085
    To tell the truth, I haven't seen that dialogue... I must be misremembering somebody's description of it.

  • OurQuestIsVainOurQuestIsVain Member Posts: 201
    I've got to admit, I assumed there were a lot more people who hated both Jaheira and Aerie. In this discussion there was only one person how hated them both and another person who mentioned the possibility of not liking them simply from a gameplay standpoint. This is more or less how I thought it should be and it appears that it is, so I guess I must have just imagined the general perception towards these characters.

    Personally I dig both characters. I've come to appreciate Jaheira more as an adult though. I like her confidence and belief in her ability to get things done, at least in everything besides dealing with charname's lineage and her status as a Harper.

    I liked Aerie a lot when I was younger but nowadays that 'rescue me' vibe she gives off is not as appealing. Keep in mind this is just how I see her and isn't a comment on her former slave status or the fact that she's an amputee.

    I tried out Valygar for the first time recently (beyond his personal quest) and I liked him quite a bit. The second that I realized that Mazzy had a thing for him though I kicked his ass right out. I wish you could romance Mazzy as she is my favorite character in the game by far.

    AramintaisemiticgodIcecreamtub
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    Well, I wouldn't base off your entire opinion/experience on several commenters in your post lol.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,034
    Hey, don't be afraid to point out your opinion just because you believe it's unpopular. To each his own. After all, my favorite NPC between both games is Anomen, despite how everybody considers him an arrogant jerk. No, actually, I love him because he begins as an arrogant jerk, but not in the way Edwin is. There's nothing that feels better than showing an arrogant jerk how he's wrong and watching him become better. That and because his non-romanced epilogue is one of my absolute favorites.

  • OurQuestIsVainOurQuestIsVain Member Posts: 201

    Well, I wouldn't base off your entire opinion/experience on several commenters in your post lol.

    I wouldn't necessarily say that my observations based on this thread are my 'opinion', more they are empirical evidence which is inherently objective. Besides, I was mostly curious about people who claimed to dislike 2 characters that are polar opposites. I wasn't really looking for opinions to sway me into liking one character or the other. Like I stated earlier, I enjoy both characters and nobody else is going to change that.

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