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"He has shown me how to make it vulnerable" - Who?

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  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,392
    Very late to respond, but I think that the "he" could also be the demon at the front door who takes one of your attributes.

    SionIVPloughed_JesterKilivitz
  • Ploughed_JesterPloughed_Jester Member Posts: 93
    edited April 2014
    Personally, I think Irenicus was stripped of his elven soul, leaving him a husk, dying. When he takes your "divine soul" he only takes just that, the soul... both divine and mortal. In doing so, your mortal soul (imoen meager and meek by comparison) and your divine (bhaal powerful and consuming) both end up stripped. The divine soul, however, is not inherently evil. Only the essence is what pulls you.

    The Bhaalspawn abilities can be good or evil, depending on your choices. Both ability types are stripped, because the divine soul is linked to the mortal. However, if both were stripped in their entirety, all that would be left is the essence, and you would just be the slayer... or just as likely die, I suppose.

    The combat against your divine soul with the help of the mortal shatters them, leaving mere fragments with you. Enough to keep you alive, but smaller than the essence which makes up the most of you. This is why, in future dreams, I believe they all have to roll into one. The mortal as the base, with almost all of the divine stripped away. "Imoen's" change to evil is the essence spreading to what's left of your soul.

    Bhaal and Imoen in the dreams can't be good and evil, because if you are an evil then it makes no sense. Why would you have this good part... you don't care. That's why I think they represent mortal and divine. The coolest part of this theory is what you represent in the dreams. Will. Impetus. This makes a lot more sense after when dream imoen does the "one two three four... five" bit. Kill your enemies, accept the power of the slayer. That lets it grow. If it grows strong enough it will take over what's left of your soul. Only then can it ultimately break your will, the strongest part of you, and take over completely.

    Blucher
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,303
    Damn. Someone figured it out :)

    abacusjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2015
    This is a very old post, but that last answer had me intrigued and...no...it couldn't have been Elminster. The guy is directly connected to the gods through Mystra, his actions would be immediately spotted by some god, and he/she/it in turn would go to Ao with this (if he hadn't known already).

    1.As to the "it's your soul/subconscious" - also no, in both scenarious:
    - If "Imoen" in the dream is the real Imoen - she got that info from another source, oherwise she would simply state "YOU have shown me how to make it vulnerable";
    - If "Imoen" IS a representation of your soul - then this whole sentence is nonsense, since it would mean "I have shown myself how to make it vulnerable"

    Inside of CHARNAME there are two spiritual beings: The Soul and The Essence. No room for a third, I'm afraid. :)

    2. As to the "It's Sarevok" argument: if it was him, he would've simply told you about it, either in the Abyss in BG2 or in Throne of Bhaal - remember, Ao's command only pertains to deities, not mortals (Elminster is somewhere in between those two states)

    3. However, if "He" is Cyric (and currently it's the only possible deity that comes realistically to mind), either assisting "Imoen" (whatever she actually is in the dream) either personally or through a proxy, he could NEVER mention his involvement, even in ToB, since Ao would immediately...well, unleash some consequences.

  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    Sharn said:

    Imoen's soul is not actually in the dream, it is your dream, and Imoen represents an aspect of yourself fighting against being consumed by the essense of Bhaal. That's always been my take on it.

    Agree. Pretty sure this is backed up by some of the dialogue when you meet Imoen in the Spellhold basement.

    JuliusBorisov
  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    edited August 2015
    Troodon80 said:

    'He' might even be a metaphor for a person who taught the player back at Candlekeep, and the knowledge (memory) has resurfaced. Tethoril, perhaps. A good deed not forgotten, Firebead, perhaps? It gives you the pick of just about anyone at any given time in the character's history.

    Such a thing would have been Gorion's life's work for his last 20 years.

    EDIT: adding to this so I don't triple post...

    Anyway, IMO, all three: Imoen, Bhaal, and Irenicus are YOU (CharName).

    Bhaal of course, is the taint of Bhaal within CharName, Imoen is that part of you which resists (note you can change some of the dream sequences with your dialogue choices), and Irenicus is that which (the real) Irenicus set into motion with his experiments, the influence which makes the struggle speed up and come to a head.

    I agree with some of the earlier posters, that the "He" is probably Irenicus who inadvertently showed a way to resist. I would prefer Gorion (or his influence/teaching), but Gorion just wasn't given enough importance in the dreams for that to be likely.

    The idea that "he" is Cyric, or Firebead, or Tethtoril, is interesting, but a little far-fetched.

    Post edited by Blucher on
  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    As I've already stated, Imoen can't be an aspect of your soul, since:
    1. If "Imoen" IS a representation of your soul - then this whole sentence is nonsense, since it would mean "I have shown myself how to make it vulnerable".
    2. The Essence of Bhaal clearly talks about your soul in the third person - he doesn't interact with "Imoen".

  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    Hmmm. A bit of a side question, but did Irenicus have the ability to steal a "normal" soul to replace his own, or did he need a special kind of soul, one taken over by a dead god's essence for instance? Or did he have the ability to steal any old soul (a shadow thief, a hobo, Neeber's) but WANTED an especially powerful (divine?) soul so that he could gain more power, or be able to tap into the Tree of Life?

    I'm guessing the latter. Irenicus was beyond just wanting to cure his affliction. His greed for power and revenge caused everything that happened in BG2.

  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    edited August 2015
    MaciejS said:

    As I've already stated, Imoen can't be an aspect of your soul, since:
    1. If "Imoen" IS a representation of your soul - then this whole sentence is nonsense, since it would mean "I have shown myself how to make it vulnerable".
    2. The Essence of Bhaal clearly talks about your soul in the third person - he doesn't interact with "Imoen".

    "He" could still be Irenicus in #1, and so sensible.

    As for #2, the taint of Bhaal is an outside agency of sorts. Part of you, yet still independent.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    It's definitely not real. Imoen confirmed it wasn't her, so anything that happened in the dream is not due to anything Irenicus did to her. It's strictly from Charname's perspective--it's based on what Charname thinks has happened to Imoen. What does Charname know, or assume, about the situation?

    1: Irenicus said that he had to show Imoen "some very dark shadows indeed" before she could make any link to her Bhaalspawn heritage. Bhaal wasn't contacting Imoen without Irenicus' help.

    2: Irenicus said that Imoen's innocent charm suppressed that aspect of her--Irenicus, not Bhaal, cultivated it.

    3: Irenicus, in the dreams he sent (or Charname assumes he sent) to Charname, stressed that Irenicus could show Charname how to use his or her heritage to gain power.

    So, Imoen in the dream says Irenicus told her how to make it vulnerable. This is because, from Charname's point of view, Irenicus knows how to cultivate and control the Bhaalspawn essence. Irenicus told the dream Imoen how to render Bhaal vulnerable so she could take control of it, which is how Irenicus cultivated the essence in Imoen.

    JuliusBorisovNonnahswriter
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,963
    jackjack said:

    In making it vulnerable, does she not weaken the essence? If her soul derives strength from it, perhaps weakening the essence makes her soul ripe for takeover. Just postulating here.

    If I remember correctly, during this sequence, her soul was ALREADY taken. When you get to spellhold, she already lost her soul, so yea.

  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2015
    @semiticgod
    Sorry, but Irenicus had absolutely no part to play in the "Bhaal Essence" plot point, nor had he any idea how to cultivate/control/grow it. The Slayer was a complete surprise to him, and a side-effect of the soul stealing rituals. He was completely ignorant of the fact that the Essence (not Bhaal himself, he is dead) has a will of its own. From his words in the Dungeon it's obvious he just thought of the Essence as a source of power.

    Irenicus did not send any dreams, as we all well know. That was the Essence in just another disguise.

    I cannot stress enough just how completely wrong Irenicus was about what the Bhaal Essence really is.

    And, most importantly: even if he DID, even if we consider you right, Irenicus had absolutely NO REASON to teach anyone how to control the Essence; on the contrary, he wanted to see it unleashed (although, as I've stated before, he was wrong about it's nature).

    @Blucher
    After some thought, I think it wasn't even his lust for more power (even though it would be another piece of evidence that he thought the Essence was a "divine battery"). I think it was just his immense pride. He, Irenicus, the Shattered One, would not be satisfied with anything but an exceptional soul, a unique one.

    Or maybe it's the fact that, since the souls of Bhaalspawn are already damaged and tampered with, it's easier to tamper with them further?

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    @MaciejS: Most of what you say I agree with, but your point does not contradict mine. You're making a claim about Irenicus; I was making a claim about Charname's perception of Irenicus.
    [spoiler]
    MaciejS said:

    @semiticgod
    Sorry, but Irenicus had absolutely no part to play in the "Bhaal Essence" plot point, nor had he any idea how to cultivate/control/grow it. The Slayer was a complete surprise to him, and a side-effect of the soul stealing rituals. He was completely ignorant of the fact that the Essence (not Bhaal himself, he is dead) has a will of its own. From his words in the Dungeon it's obvious he just thought of the Essence as a source of power.

    Irenicus did not send any dreams, as we all well know. That was the Essence in just another disguise.

    I cannot stress enough just how completely wrong Irenicus was about what the Bhaal Essence really is.

    And, most importantly: even if he DID, even if we consider you right, Irenicus had absolutely NO REASON to teach anyone how to control the Essence; on the contrary, he wanted to see it unleashed (although, as I've stated before, he was wrong about it's nature).

    It's true that Irenicus did not necessarily understand what he was doing. But Irenicus' knowledge or ignorance of the Bhaalspawn essence, or anything, is irrelevant to my point. I made it clear I was talking about things from Charname's point of view. See my text in bold:

    It's definitely not real. Imoen confirmed it wasn't her, so anything that happened in the dream is not due to anything Irenicus did to her. It's strictly from Charname's perspective--it's based on what Charname thinks has happened to Imoen. What does Charname know, or assume, about the situation?

    1: Irenicus said that he had to show Imoen "some very dark shadows indeed" before she could make any link to her Bhaalspawn heritage. Bhaal wasn't contacting Imoen without Irenicus' help.

    2: Irenicus said that Imoen's innocent charm suppressed that aspect of her--Irenicus, not Bhaal, cultivated it.

    3: Irenicus, in the dreams he sent (or Charname assumes he sent) to Charname, stressed that Irenicus could show Charname how to use his or her heritage to gain power.

    This is because, from Charname's point of view, Irenicus knows how to cultivate and control the Bhaalspawn essence.

    I was talking about Charname's perception of Irenicus, not Irenicus.

    Also, I did not say Irenicus wanted to teach anyone to control the essence for their own ends. I spoke of him helping Imoen control the essence in the Spellhold dream, but the Imoen in that dream is not real, and Irenicus said he had nothing to do with that dream, either. This is a perception of Charname's, not a reality.

    Irenicus wouldn't want Imoen to be able to control the Bhaalspawn essence. We know that--he wants it for himself. But Charname does not know that.

    It is possible Bhaal's essence sent the pre-Spellhold dreams. It's also possible Irenicus sent them. There is a D&D spell called Nightmare which allows you to send messages to people through their dreams, from a distance. Irenicus has reason to send such a dream: he, like Bhaal, wants Charname to accept the Bhaal essence. Both Bhaal and Irenicus view Charname as a source of fuel to be tapped, and they want to bring that fuel to the surface.

    But Irenicus, unlike Bhaal, also wants to get you to go to Spellhold. That's why he tortures Imoen in the pre-Spellhold dreams: it gives you a reason to hurry up and get to Spellhold. Bhaal does not have this goal in mind.
    [/spoiler]
    This is my understanding of the situation:
    1: Irenicus does want to control the essence. He does not want anyone else to control it; he merely conditions Imoen (the "very dark shadows" like the mutilation of Khalid), and to some extent Charname, to help Irenicus better draw it out of them. That would be your claim, and I share it.
    2: The pre-Spellhold dreams come from Irenicus via a Nightmare spell or similar magic, and they are there for two reasons: to motivate Charname to come to Spellhold where s/he can be captured, and to cultivate the Bhaalspawn essence so Irenicus won't have to work as hard to drag it out of him or her when s/he arrives.
    3: Neither Imoen nor Irenicus is responsible for the contents of the Spellhold dream. We know that firsthand.
    4: Bhaal is partly responsible for the dream. That's why you fail to kill him in the dream. It fits the message he might want to send, if he's actually involved (and not just dead).
    5: Charname is also partly responsible for the dream. This is why Imoen appears to help you fight Bhaal, and this is why Charname's, when s/he wakes up, tells Irenicus "I beat your challenge." Based on Charname's dialogue, Charname seems to think Irenicus caused the dream, and Imoen joined the dream to help.

    Blucher
  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2015
    @semiticgod
    1. Irenicus did not send the dreams. He flat out admits he has no idea what you're talking about, and he has no reason to lie by that point. So any and all involvment of "Irenicus" in the dream is just Bhaal's Essence in disguise.
    2. He has no reason to motivate you to come to Spelhold. You already know that Imoen is in Spellhold.
    Tp quote a certain Cowled Wizard: "They are deviants. Let them rot in Spellhold."
    3. As I've mentioned several times, Irenicus has absolutely no clue what the Essence really is. Te logic he operates on is very simple - Bhaalspawn=hidden reserves of power=the god was evil=so to access the power, one has to be subjected to evil (which, by the way, is wrong)

    So no, the "He" could not be Irenicus. He never enters your dreams, he has no clue about the Essence, nor is he interested in doing anything with it, other than unleash your and Imoen's 'hidden powers' (which he fails) in order to have a "better" soul to steal. He has no reason to help anyone in battling the Essence, nor the means to do that (as stated several times, he's completely ignorant of the Essence).

    @Iroumen
    The demon would be an "it", not a "he", I believe. Furthermore, I think he would give some hint that he helped you earlier (he's not a god, so he faces no consequences from Ao). :)

    Naveen
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    Well... yes, actually. the 'he' could be Irenicus. He may not have intended to show your soul anything, but it is still possible for your soul to learn from his actions.

    When the cutscene starts, you are being subjected to a magical experiment of some sort, to extract your soul, and you are pulled into a dream world. This dream world is your mind's interpretation of what is happening to you. You wander around, and you find this terrifying foe you cannot defeat on your own, so you go into the library and you find your soul(Imoen) who tells you that 'he has shown me how to make it vulnerable!'. The magical ritual Irenicus is performing in the real world must weaken the link between soul and body, and since the instinct is within the body, the soul discovered from the ritual the method to weakening the instinct. Unfortunately, the soul didn't realize that by weakening the instinct, it was weakening its own connection to your body and so it got pulled away.

    Blucher
  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2015
    Well...no. Even your explanation is impossible, since by "instinct" the Bhaal within the dream clearly meant the Essence. Your soul was sucked out, but the essence remained. In ToB Sarevok clearly states that the only way to remove the Essence from a given person is to kill that person.

    Furthermore, I would argue (though it is possible) that "Dream Imoen" isn't your soul. When "Bhaal" speaks about your soul, he does not address her in any way. Either way, this has no real importance.

  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    MaciejS said:

    Well...no. Even your explanation is impossible, since by "instinct" the Bhaal within the dream clearly meant the Essence. Your soul was sucked out, but the essence remained. In ToB Sarevok clearly states that the only way to remove the Essence from a given person is to kill that person.

    Furthermore, I would argue (though it is possible) that "Dream Imoen" isn't your soul. When "Bhaal" speaks about your soul, he does not address her in any way. Either way, this has no real importance.

    Right... but the essence wasn't removed. The soul was. I don't understand how your reference invalidates my theory.

  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2015
    The ritual has nothing to do with the essence...Irenicus doesn't even know that it is an existence of its own. Your soul isn't a separate, sentient entity, and the ritual isn't a "he". Your point that ---Irenicus (he) performs a ritual --- your soul analyses it, and somehow connects it to fighting the Essence ---your soul assists you in the dream (so who are you at that moment?) is completely illogical, and would require that three personas live inside Charname - the Essence, the Soul and....what? The Psyche? Or is the souls having an internal monologue?

  • NaveenNaveen Member Posts: 81
    edited August 2015
    There is no reason why the whole scene should make perfect sense. Anything about a dream about essences, you talking with your soul symbolized and externalized by your childhood friend, and then you as a separate entity watching it and all that is a sure source of paradoxes and strange conversations. Also, there is a freaking demon by the door who asks you to lower one of your stats so you can enter... uh, yourself. It just may be not well written (I suspect there is a wrong pronoun there). The point is that you lost the fight, after the experiment there is only instinct, which makes sense because you let him... uh, it? enter your "inner depths" as the demon at the entrance says. After all, Imoen (your... soul) ends the dream screaming.

    But really, it is a dream about your inner struggle so any he/she/it/they has to be, in the end, YOU or a symbolic part of you... and yes, all those dreams are always a mess and usually end very crowded (you, yourself, your soul but not your essence, your intellect over there and another essence that isn't yours but seems to be important, etc.). I'd rather not overthink them too much.

    KaigensemiticgoddessBlucher
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    MaciejS said:

    The ritual has nothing to do with the essence...Irenicus doesn't even know that it is an existence of its own. Your soul isn't a separate, sentient entity, and the ritual isn't a "he". Your point that ---Irenicus (he) performs a ritual --- your soul analyses it, and somehow connects it to fighting the Essence ---your soul assists you in the dream (so who are you at that moment?) is completely illogical, and would require that three personas live inside Charname - the Essence, the Soul and....what? The Psyche? Or is the souls having an internal monologue?

    Well, if we look at the structure of the dream, who are 'you' in the dream? The role of your soul is taken by Imoen. This much is obvious when she cries "oh nooooooo" and you wake up and Irenicus has your soul. The role of the bhaalspawn taint is obviously taken by the avatar of Bhaal within your dream. I theorize that 'you' in the dream is the gestalt of everything that is you looking into the dreamscape. Your mind, if you will. And when your soul is torn away, you forcibly awaken with part of you gone. It's entirely symbolic, and should not be taken literally, or you have the whole problem of how Candlekeep seems to be floating in space.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    @MaciejS:
    I'm not disagreeing with you. I told you that.
    [spoiler]
    MaciejS said:

    @semiticgod
    1. Irenicus did not send the dreams. He flat out admits he has no idea what you're talking about, and he has no reason to lie by that point. So any and all involvment of "Irenicus" in the dream is just Bhaal's Essence in disguise.
    2. He has no reason to motivate you to come to Spelhold. You already know that Imoen is in Spellhold.
    Tp quote a certain Cowled Wizard: "They are deviants. Let them rot in Spellhold."
    3. As I've mentioned several times, Irenicus has absolutely no clue what the Essence really is. Te logic he operates on is very simple - Bhaalspawn=hidden reserves of power=the god was evil=so to access the power, one has to be subjected to evil (which, by the way, is wrong)

    1: Irenicus only says he had nothing to do with the dream in Spellhold, not the pre-Spellhold dreams. The player did not ask about the pre-Spellhold dreams, and Irenicus did not speak about them. I agreed with you on that point.
    2: You don't know that Imoen is in Spellhold. That Cowled Wizard appears in a cutscene Charname did not witness. The player knows that, but the party does not.
    3: As I've mentioned several times, I am not talking about Irenicus. I am talking about Charname's perception of Irenicus.
    [/spoiler]
    We're talking in circles. I read your post. Read mine.

  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    I have this feeling that while most participating in (or even reading) this discussion are more or less on the same page, we are still quibbling about orthodox religion level details. :)

    semiticgoddess
  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    edited August 2015
    I just feel the possibility of an outside source secretly aiding Charname is quite fascinating and, through all the arguments that I've posted in this discussion, I believe it's quite possible. I am absolutely convinced (and nobody is really defending this anymore) that Irenicus is not the mysterious "he", knowingly or not. Other explanations have us playing psychoanalysis and going into really convoluted ideas. "Brevity is the soul of wit", as a certain Englishman wrote, and I'd rather search for a simpler explanation.

    My personal choice is Cyric because he is the only god who must absolutely ensure that Bhaal is never resurrected, since he would lose several of his portfolios. The others (like good and orderly gods) may also hate Bhaal, but the anger of Ao is enough to keep them away. To Cyric, however, this is a matter of life and death - should Bhaal ever return, the severely weakened Cyric would be the first target of Bhaal's revenge (with Mask shortly after).

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    I don't know... Cyric said in the Pocket Plane that Ao forbade him or any of the gods from intervening in the affairs of the Bhaalspawn. He might have gotten away with sending a message to Charname, but arguably sending an unsolicited message (unlike the Pocket Plane one) would violate Ao's ruling.

    Naveen
  • NaveenNaveen Member Posts: 81
    MaciejS said:

    and I'd rather search for a simpler explanation.

    My personal choice is Cyric because he is...

    Simpler from the point of view of a player or a fan, people who see the game as a living world that goes beyond the game itself (and, therefore, they can seek answers in the lore or the extended universe). It is not simpler from the point of view of the writer, the one who actually created the question/problem the fan is trying to answer. If you were a writer, would you keep such a huge plot element hidden? Would you think "Ok, this pronoun 'he' is about Cyric, but I'm not going to give any hint about that".

    By the way, there are two 'HE's in the dream. The first time you met Imoen she says something like "HE does not expect us to fight together... but HE has shown me how." It seems reasonable to assume there are two entities here or a very bipolar one, the first one may be Bhaal/instincts, the second one... who knows, there aren't many left, so Irenicus seems reasonable*, even if just because I can't think of anyone else. Oddly enough, Imoen later refers to Bhaal as an IT in "How to make IT vulnerable". So it may be possible that someone fumbled during the writing process. These things happen.



    *she does not say he has TAUGHT me how... but SHOWN, and Irenicus actually does that a lot, and I think Imoen says almost those same exact words in Irenicus dungeon. It may be a way of saying that the crap he did to you, all that about untapped power or whatever, and that you know he did to Imoen too (and your soul is symbolically represented by her), somehow, has uh strengthened your character or... something? Not that it works anyway, she ends up screaming.

    semiticgoddess
  • MaciejSMaciejS Member Posts: 28
    I agree that the first "He" is probably Bhaal/The Essence. As to Cyrics...first of all, the god is evil, mad, and a liar, so he would seek out methods to ignore Ao's rules for his own benefit. As stated before, no one in the entire Realms, mortal or immortal, wants Bhaal not to come back more than he does.

    And actually...he clearly does in ToB. He appears before you, taunts you, THREATENS you openly, and then offers you advice. If that isn't interfering, then I don't know what is.

    Remember: the only other god who had the gall the even talk to you was Amaunator, and he wasn't in the the best state of mind either.

    So basically, my main arguments circle around two notions:
    A. He has the most to lose should Bhaal come back.
    B. He does break Ao's rules and makes contact with you in ToB.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    To quote the dialogue from ToB:

    Charname: "If I was a threat to you, why wouldn't you just kill me?"

    Cyric: "Ahhhh, if only things were so easy as that. But if I get involved in the whole Bhaalspawn mess, then my own opponents amongst the gods would intervene. Mystra... or Kelemvor, perhaps. And it seems that Ao, the Overfather, has an interest in this as well... which is very odd. He wishes this little climactic end for the Bhaalspawn to play itself out without interference from the rest of us. And so I, the great Cyric, am restricted to watching and observing. And yet if there is anyone who should feel threatened by a child of the former Lord of Murder, it is *me*. There is just no justice anymore."


    So, Cyric does have a clear interest in you. That much is true. But in the same dialogue where he says that, he confirms that no, he is not interfering. He is "watching and observing." He can do no more. He sends his goons to attack you, but under the claim that he's just testing you, which is what the Pocket Plane is for. He says, "I think you need to be tested. That *is* what you created these little rooms for, isn't it? To test yourself? Mystra and Ao couldn't fault me for aiding you towards that end, now, could they?"

    I've gone through the dialog in DLTCEP and at no point does he threaten you or give you advice. Cyric's purpose in that dialogue is not to give information to Charname or influence him or her. Mostly, Cyric just asks Charname questions--his goal is to gather information.

    NaveenelminsterJuliusBorisov
  • NaveenNaveen Member Posts: 81
    edited August 2015
    @MaciejS I understand what you say, and I'm not saying it is *impossible*, and it's true Cyric is the most concerned. What I'm saying is that that scene, like the dialogue, is a piece of 'art', not a natural occurrence like a rock or something. Someone wrote it, someone had to think about it, form a mental image of sorts. The reason you give, though reasonable in the setting (except for the whole "you can't interfere", though I'm sure we could find some loophole, this is fantasy after all), requires a lot of... "meta-loreing" (Is that even a word?) It's like those who say that the Emperor from Star Wars was building the Death Star to fight against the Juuzah Vong. It is actually brilliant and I'd love if that were cannon, but it does not make sense that the writer(s) would think like that.

    In retrospect, when you have already played ToB, it may seem reasonable, but no writer writes a game in retrospect. We don't even know if the writer who did the Spellhold's dream and ToB is (or are) the same person.


    semiticgoddessDJKajuru
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Indeed. Bringing Cyric, or any god, into the dream makes the whole sequence even more convoluted, not simpler.

    FinneousPJsemiticgoddessJuliusBorisovKaigen
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