Actually you will become a Fallen Paladin in BG, if you slaughter the innocent, or get caught stealing from them. So, there's a penalty for evil deeds such as these.
It's worth noting that unlike Second Edition and Third Edition, 5th Edition paladins don't have any mechanical restrictions on their behavior. So if SCL doesn't penalize paladins, it's not a shortcoming in the mechanics; it's an oversight in the writing.
Actually you will become a Fallen Paladin in BG, if you slaughter the innocent, or get caught stealing from them. So, there's a penalty for evil deeds such as these.
I did not know. However, Neverwinter games you can kill anyone and do all manner of evil and never blink about your alignment.
In NWN2 there are alignment shifts for the main character, and that can result in trouble for some classes, if your alignment shifts often enough to change your alignment ... then you may not be able to level up unless you manage to cause an alignment change into the opposite direction again.
@Merina - within Mask of the Betrayer, true enough (Maybe even in the OC???) but it is not an engine restraint and any module or Persistent world will have no such strictures.
and now that I think about it, within BG, the only thing that will cause a Paladin to 'Fall' is if reputation drops below a certain level. It is perfectly possible to slaughter a large number of non-baddies and, provided that you are managing the mechanic of reputation, not have any problems at all. And in IWD, no such mechanic exists (that I am aware of).
But before this gets even further off topic, I was trying to express that at least in regards to alignment and Paladins, SCL isn't terribly removed from other (better) games of the genre. There may be degrees of effect within certain games, but holistically to call that out as an unusual failing seems like someone trying to stretch the point beyond credulity.
In NWN2 there are alignment shifts for the main character, and that can result in trouble for some classes, if your alignment shifts often enough to change your alignment ... then you may not be able to level up unless you manage to cause an alignment change into the opposite direction again.
That was actually a really cool mechanic. If your alignment shifts too much you are forced to choose a new diety (in my case I started out with a cleric of Silvanus but because I shifted too far to the good I had to pick Chauntea). I thought this was a nice touch. There isn't any penalty for it though.
I do need to eventually play through NWN2 @_@ After I beat Final Fantasy IX I'll make it next on my to-do list followed by Sword Coast Legends. To me SCL doesn't officially launch until I can play a Drow Necromancer. XD Which will be soon So that's cool!
@Vallmyr - did you ever finish the Gold Box games? I know you were working on them at one point but I never saw if you posted your conclusion.
I'm unfortunate to say the laptop I was using died super hard. I plan to re-pick up the game as I SUPER enjoyed them and even bought the whole set on GoG. This time I'll play them on my main PC and hopefully it won't die. I think the next time I start on PoR I'll structure my party differently now that I know how the game runs.
I think the next time I start on PoR I'll structure my party differently now that I know how the game runs.
Be prepared for a lot of entertainment ... regardless of whether it's the PoR series or the Krynn/Dragonlance series. In total, both series can compete with eachother story-wise and are awesome.
Also be prepared for some end-fights which are unbalanced as they cause a sudden increase of difficulty ... which is a source of frustration so close to the end. Multiple fights without a chance to rest ... and as a worst-case, what you considered an over-powered party suddenly is not the ideal choice that would be compatible with a few strategies in walk-throughs.
Also be prepared for some end-fights which are unbalanced as they cause a sudden increase of difficulty ... which is a source of frustration so close to the end. Multiple fights without a chance to rest ... and as a worst-case, what you considered an over-powered party suddenly is not the ideal choice that would be compatible with a few strategies in walk-throughs.
Surprisingly enough, I remember (dimly) that the final battle of Silverblades was ultimately almost ridiculously easy. Let me qualify that by saying that I "dimly remember" and I am pretty sure that I ended up ultimately using (after a bunch of fails) some strategy that "Just worked", though I couldn't say for certain what it was. I remember thinking "Hey, I just won. That wasn't so hard."
But I do mirror the rest. All three series are loads of fun to play and make for HOURS of obsession and gameplay.
Nah, although better than SCL, PoE is also deeply flawed in it's gameplay mechanics. To an extent, because it's trying too hard not to ape D&D. There is a reason 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition D&D where successful: They are good, straightforward, and intuitive gameplay systems.
I think most critics of SCL need to get a life. Precisely because it is D&D, and there are many D&D fans who've been dreaming of their "perfect" D&D crpg for years, they're demanding an unreasonable level of perfection from SCL. SCL is a decent, fun game, especially given its low price. Furthermore, and in response to the complainers, the devs have announced a series of extensive community packs for the game to be released free over the next couple of months that address most of the main complaints.
I'll also add this: the NwN series SUCKED (with the exception of MotB which at least had a great story). Not all of us who are huge D&D fans and IE games fans liked the NwN series. And if SCL had actually been a true successor to NwN, I would be loudly complaining. So exactly who should be satisfied? No develoer can satisfy everyone.
Can't we just agree that Obsidian should do every Baldur's Gate-esque game these days?
Although I appreciate that PoE is a nice game, I still believe that Beamdog will some day have resourses and will make a "Baldur's Gate-esque" game, and a really good game. After all, they're probably the ones knowing ins and outs of such a game the most in the world today.
Nah, although better than SCL, PoE is also deeply flawed in it's gameplay mechanics.
The combat system is awesome ... but perhaps it can do too much already, so it's easy to get lost in all the details that can make a difference when facing monsters where basic strategies fail. A cipher activating an Ectopsychic Echo on an ally and then running around with either of the two heroes to hit enemies with the beam between the two, which does heavy crushing damage, is an amazing example of what you can do ... Rolling Flames that bounce off walls. A Wall of Force that blocks some enemies. Wave spells that heal your allies and push away enemies. There is lots of good stuff in the game.
SCL is a decent, fun game, especially given its low price.
It doesn't offer enough to play it more than once. Playing it again would not result in a different experience. The combat implementation is boring ... basically, you only need to keep alive your fighter(s) and rogue(s) to kill anything in the area ... and the bit of support/buffs from wizard or cleric don't make a huge difference.
It's worth noting that unlike Second Edition and Third Edition, 5th Edition paladins don't have any mechanical restrictions on their behavior.
Wrong.
Breaking Your Oath A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath. A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an all- night vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act o f self-denial. After a rite o f confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh. If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
It's worth noting that unlike Second Edition and Third Edition, 5th Edition paladins don't have any mechanical restrictions on their behavior.
Wrong.
Breaking Your Oath A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath. A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an all- night vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act o f self-denial. After a rite o f confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh. If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
I can confirm this because i have those manuals. The Oathbreaker is basically a blackguard.
DM discretion isn't the same thing as a built in mechanic. Previous editions required the paladin to lose their class if they broke their vows. Fifth edition shifts that to a guideline, set to the discretion of the person running the game.
To elaborate: The sidebar about breaking your oath is just that: a sidebar. It's not a feature of the Paladin class or of any of the Vow archetypes. It's there to present additional options and expand the lore, to help the player when roleplaying their character.
The part at the end, where it talks about DM discretion, presents a couple of possible options that a DM can utilize when a player willfully breaks their oath. These are, again, merely options. As a player you should be aware that your DM might use those options if you're planning on breaking your oath, but as a DM you're under no obligation to use them at all.
So, as I said above, the lack of consequences for a paladin who's breaking their oath is not a departure from the rules; if anything, it's a sign that the DM is not using that particular sidebar to interfere with the player's experience. That doesn't make it less disappointing, but it is important to draw the distinction between story elements you feel are missing (like this one), and mechanics that were not implemented (like the Dragonborn race).
It's also worth noting, now that I think about it, that the paladin vows are each very different; you can easily be a Chaotic Evil paladin with the Vow of Enmity, for whom a "no murdering innocents or you lose your class" mechanic would make no sense.
DM discretion isn't the same thing as a built in mechanic. Previous editions required the paladin to lose their class if they broke their vows. Fifth edition shifts that to a guideline, set to the discretion of the person running the game.
The load times in this game are absolutely asinine. Pillars is pretty rough on initial start-up, but it's mostly instantaneous once the game is loaded, the time spent on even re-loading a save in SCL is absolutely awful.
The load times in this game are absolutely asinine. Pillars is pretty rough on initial start-up, but it's mostly instantaneous once the game is loaded, the time spent on even re-loading a save in SCL is absolutely awful.
Now just try making your own modules and then going through the process of testing them. Lots and lots of load times.
The load times in this game are absolutely asinine. Pillars is pretty rough on initial start-up, but it's mostly instantaneous once the game is loaded, the time spent on even re-loading a save in SCL is absolutely awful.
Now just try making your own modules and then going through the process of testing them. Lots and lots of load times.
I can about imagine. I really like the game just fine, especially with all the free stuff we're gonna get going forward, but my god, the optimization on all these crowd-funded isometric games is pretty piss-poor. The best part about Divinity: Orginal Sin Enhanced Edition is that the load times are practically gone.
there are many D&D fans who've been dreaming of their "perfect" D&D crpg for years, they're demanding an unreasonable level of perfection from SCL.
It is true that fans of the D&D have set some pretty high expectations. As to if they are unreasonably high, that is probably where we see things differently. Personally, I think that BG and ToEE and NWN have all been a lot closer to the D&D gaming experience than what I've read about SCL. And considering that it has been done several times, and in some cases more than 10 years ago, it is not unreasonable to expect AT LEAST something comparable. By most accounts SCL isn't that.
SCL is a decent, fun game, especially given its low price.
A low price is fine, and most of the reviews I have read haven't said "Bad game" but that it just doesn't distinguish itself overly much. A mediocre game at a reasonable price does not make for a high review, particularly when games like BG are still played and set the bar MUCH higher (and for about the same price).
Furthermore, and in response to the complainers, the devs have announced a series of extensive community packs for the game to be released free over the next couple of months that address most of the main complaints.
There are always going to be people who complain for the sake of complaining. I prefer to evaluate those reviews that are more reasoned and actually give reasons why to like (or not to like) a game. In that, the very limited number of tile sets and the limited ability to modify those tie sets seems a pretty big thing. Add in the fact that there really is no way to make dynamic scripts and the actual ability to make an adventure in the way that NWN did seems like a BIG problem (to me). Throw in the very limited character creation choices and I don't personally see how 'Most' of that can be fixed. And if it CAN, then the game was released a lot earlier than it had any business being released.
With that having been said, if they can fix all of these (and all of the host of other issues that people are reporting), maybe it will be worth a second look. As it stands, gamers like myself aren't being drawn to the game because there are much better options out there available.
I'll also add this: the NwN series SUCKED (with the exception of MotB which at least had a great story). Not all of us who are huge D&D fans and IE games fans liked the NwN series. And if SCL had actually been a true successor to NwN, I would be loudly complaining. So exactly who should be satisfied? No develoer can satisfy everyone.
The HUGE draw of NWN wasn't the stock campaigns that came with the game, but the virtual unlimited ability for players to tell their own story. If you didn't like the writing of any of the campaigns except MoTB, you are not alone in that. However, if you talk to fans of NWN, almost to a person they will talk about the dozens or hundreds of mods that came out or the Persistent worlds that they played on. And if they don't talk about that, they talk about MAKING worlds for people to play in or spending hours and hours and HOURS creating characters on sites like NWN2db or elsewhere. In other words, the sheer depth of the game that NWN represented (and even it suffered from poor reviews due mainly to the Interface and the graphics), keeps the game alive today in some places. Not bad for a game that 'SUCKED' (in your subjective opinion).
As far as it goes, the developers of SCL themselves either stated outright, or HEAVILY implied that SCL was going to be 'The next NWN'. If the sales team is marketing it as something, it is reasonable for the consumers to put it up there that it didn't meet that preset (by the company itself) expectation.
One of my favorite things about the original Neverwinter Nights was the Player Resource Consortium mod that added almost every 3.5 class, spell, and feat into the game. In Hordes of the Underdark you could have the normal two companion limit + another custom companion from the Leadership feat! I've yet to do a run with that but I plan to someday XD
Comments
and now that I think about it, within BG, the only thing that will cause a Paladin to 'Fall' is if reputation drops below a certain level. It is perfectly possible to slaughter a large number of non-baddies and, provided that you are managing the mechanic of reputation, not have any problems at all. And in IWD, no such mechanic exists (that I am aware of).
But before this gets even further off topic, I was trying to express that at least in regards to alignment and Paladins, SCL isn't terribly removed from other (better) games of the genre. There may be degrees of effect within certain games, but holistically to call that out as an unusual failing seems like someone trying to stretch the point beyond credulity.
@_@
After I beat Final Fantasy IX I'll make it next on my to-do list followed by Sword Coast Legends. To me SCL doesn't officially launch until I can play a Drow Necromancer. XD
Which will be soon
So that's cool!
Also be prepared for some end-fights which are unbalanced as they cause a sudden increase of difficulty ... which is a source of frustration so close to the end. Multiple fights without a chance to rest ... and as a worst-case, what you considered an over-powered party suddenly is not the ideal choice that would be compatible with a few strategies in walk-throughs.
The Savage Frontier series is very good, too.
But I do mirror the rest. All three series are loads of fun to play and make for HOURS of obsession and gameplay.
I'll also add this: the NwN series SUCKED (with the exception of MotB which at least had a great story). Not all of us who are huge D&D fans and IE games fans liked the NwN series. And if SCL had actually been a true successor to NwN, I would be loudly complaining. So exactly who should be satisfied? No develoer can satisfy everyone.
Breaking Your Oath
A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath.
A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an all- night vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act o f self-denial. After a rite o f confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.
If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
The part at the end, where it talks about DM discretion, presents a couple of possible options that a DM can utilize when a player willfully breaks their oath. These are, again, merely options. As a player you should be aware that your DM might use those options if you're planning on breaking your oath, but as a DM you're under no obligation to use them at all.
So, as I said above, the lack of consequences for a paladin who's breaking their oath is not a departure from the rules; if anything, it's a sign that the DM is not using that particular sidebar to interfere with the player's experience. That doesn't make it less disappointing, but it is important to draw the distinction between story elements you feel are missing (like this one), and mechanics that were not implemented (like the Dragonborn race).
It's also worth noting, now that I think about it, that the paladin vows are each very different; you can easily be a Chaotic Evil paladin with the Vow of Enmity, for whom a "no murdering innocents or you lose your class" mechanic would make no sense.
With that having been said, if they can fix all of these (and all of the host of other issues that people are reporting), maybe it will be worth a second look. As it stands, gamers like myself aren't being drawn to the game because there are much better options out there available. The HUGE draw of NWN wasn't the stock campaigns that came with the game, but the virtual unlimited ability for players to tell their own story. If you didn't like the writing of any of the campaigns except MoTB, you are not alone in that. However, if you talk to fans of NWN, almost to a person they will talk about the dozens or hundreds of mods that came out or the Persistent worlds that they played on. And if they don't talk about that, they talk about MAKING worlds for people to play in or spending hours and hours and HOURS creating characters on sites like NWN2db or elsewhere. In other words, the sheer depth of the game that NWN represented (and even it suffered from poor reviews due mainly to the Interface and the graphics), keeps the game alive today in some places. Not bad for a game that 'SUCKED' (in your subjective opinion).
As far as it goes, the developers of SCL themselves either stated outright, or HEAVILY implied that SCL was going to be 'The next NWN'. If the sales team is marketing it as something, it is reasonable for the consumers to put it up there that it didn't meet that preset (by the company itself) expectation.