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Are sorcerers an adequate replacement for mages?

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  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @subtledoctor , @Skatan , I understand and appreciate your reasons.
    Sorcerers could have been implemented both less powerful and more different from mages. And maybe the real point is more different, as both a well played sorc and a well played mage are too powerful, is arcane magic that is unbalanced. With every arcane caster, once arcane magic knowledge is attained, the player has to drive with a foot on the brake...

    But if they were implemented in a different way, covering a different class's role in a party, I suppose that some players would be happy and other ones complain about it.
    My point is that as they are now they are highly configurable when you chose the spells they learn, but quite rigid after the choice. So each player can configure his sorc as he like, making him able to replace a mage or to cover a different role, just choosing his spells. And this is not to drive them with the brake pedal pressed, thing that as I told imo is a good thing to do with every mage. Is building them as a rally car, or a dragster, or a sport utility wagon just choosing which spells they learn. The reson I am happy about the way they are implemented is that I think that there a lot of flexibility, not in what they can do, but in the different ways a player can build and use them. As supermages or as something that covers a different role.
    FinneousPJBubblesSkatanmashedtaters
  • BubblesBubbles Member Posts: 589
    A quick question, how would a solo sorcerer(before HLA kicks in) fight a clay golem
    mashedtaters
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    Bubbles said:

    A quick question, how would a solo sorcerer(before HLA kicks in) fight a clay golem

    There're many ways, actually.

    A sorcerer can still use scrolls, remember? Buy Tenser's Transformation, take a staff (for example, a +4 sold in Athkatla) and voila.

    A clay golem is not immune to Acid damage. You can spam Melf's acid arrows.

    Also, a clay golem has 50% resist to Fire, so you can still kill him with Melfs Minute Meteors.

    Of course, if you have Improved Haste, Stoneskin and Mirror image, as well as Blur, you life will be much easier.
    gorgonzolamashedtaters
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Also there is a potion that grants 10 bonus to AC against crushing, golem's magic resistance can be lowered, an earth elemental can be summoned, indeed many ways.
    Golems, all them, are easy foe. At low level liches, powerful demons and beholders are the real problem for the sorcerer. At HLA level the only problem is don't spoil the fun using always the same OP spell combinations.
    JuliusBorisovmashedtaters
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    Bubbles said:

    @gorgonzola
    Sorry for side-tracking this thread.

    You're not side-tracking this thread. Good questions and comments. We are still talking about the usefulness of sorcerers vs mages. Everything you have said applies.

  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    Gotural said:

    I think Sorcerers are to Mages what Archers are to Fighters.

    When BG1 came out, there was no kits and if you wanted to play a ranged damage dealer, you had to play either a Fighter, a Paladin or a Ranger. The first option being obviously the better with the additional benefit of the Mastery and High Mastery.

    When BG2 introduced kits, the Archer was superior to the plain Fighter and the Sorcerer is superior to the Mage.

    But the thing is, Sorcerers and Archers can't be multiclass or dualclass (an Archer can technically be a dualclass but it's better as a single class) and this is in my opinion there that lies the versatility of the Mage (and the Fighter).

    Sure, I think that a Sorcerer is a bit better than a Mage, but you could also play Fighter 3 => Mage, a Berserker 7 => Mage, a Kensai/Berserker 9 => Mage, a Kensai 13 => Mage, a Swashbuckler 10 => Mage, an Assassin 9/13 => Mage, a Priest of Lathander 10/11 => Mage, a F/M, a F/M/C, a F/M/T, a T/M, a Wild Mage or anything else.

    The Mage is not only versatile in his spellcasting, but also in the way you can build it and that's a huge advantage to my mind.

    I think you hit the nail on the head with that. How many people have secretly wanted to make an archer-->sorcerer? I know I have. Talk about op'd.
    gorgonzolaGozeta
  • BubblesBubbles Member Posts: 589

    Gotural said:



    I think you hit the nail on the head with that. How many people have secretly wanted to make an archer-->sorcerer? I know I have. Talk about op'd.

    Hehe, I would prefer Archer/ShadowDancer xD.
    I like Sorcerer when I play no-reloads of Core Rules or higher.
    Reason? No spell copying failure (that could cost a lot of gold or sometimes hard to find another limited wish/wish)

    mashedtaters
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    Out of curiosity's sake, let's follow up on @gotural's well-defined reply (of which I agree), though this might have been discussed in other threads already:

    IF sorcerers were able to dual/multiclass, would you then choose a mage or a sorc?
    --> F/S multi, F/S/T, T/S, C/S vs F/M, F/M/T, T/M, C/M etc

    I'd prolly choose Sorc for all except C/M, how about you?
    JuliusBorisovgorgonzolamashedtaters
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    Skatan said:

    Out of curiosity's sake, let's follow up on @gotural's well-defined reply (of which I agree), though this might have been discussed in other threads already:

    IF sorcerers were able to dual/multiclass, would you then choose a mage or a sorc?
    --> F/S multi, F/S/T, T/S, C/S vs F/M, F/M/T, T/M, C/M etc

    I'd prolly choose Sorc for all except C/M, how about you?

    Very much so... a Fighter/Sorcerer would be the supreme tank. She could use Spirit Armour and Improved Invisibilty and then still have 4 castings of Stoneskins. Or sustain Protection from Magic Weapons for 24 rounds (4r/cast 6cast/level)... all while laying the smackdown with whatever hard pointed object she's packing.
    JuliusBorisovgorgonzolamashedtatersSkatan
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    abacus said:



    I'd prolly choose Sorc for all except C/M, how about you?

    Imo is the strongest of all.
    More sequencers and CC to mix arcane and divine magic.
    And some divine spells can replace some arcane ones so The C/S can overcome better his other limitation, the number of arcane spells he can learn. Skeletal Warrior is the best example (and is casted as cleric at 1 spell level less), but the elemental protections or the protection against fear are other ones.
    Fighter/Sorcerer is the supreme tank, but F/M is almost as good if you don't limit the rests, one more stoneskin or PFMW x day don't change the life, one more CC with arcane and divine spells can change completely an hard battle, and having like 4 or 6 more sorc spells to learn, in levels that impose choices, because there are clerical substitutions is a real bonus.
    Dispell Magic, the sorc have to choose between DM (useful to dispell party members with nasty effects) and RM (party friendly when dispelling enemies). C/S have both at no cost.
    Pantalionmashedtaters
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    I would go for a Blackguard/Dragon Disciple multiclass if it was possible.
    JuliusBorisovmashedtaters
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The only multi-class sorcerer I'd accept over a multi-class mage would be a Fighter/Sorcerer, on the grounds that it would have defensive spells quicker. The problem is that the sorcerer's main power spike occurs at 3 million XP. That's when the higher-level spells, which the sorcerer gets more of, start to matter more than versatility. A multi-class doesn't reach that point nearly as quickly.

    A sorcerer's advantage over a mage comes from spamming overpowered spells like Wish and Time Stop. Multi-classing withholds those spells.
    gorgonzolamashedtaters
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Skatan said:


    I'd prolly choose Sorc for all except C/M, how about you?

    Given sufficient system mastery, every single multi would be better with a sorcerer, especially the C/M.

    Sorcerers are unquestionably more powerful than mages. It's inevitable, they have more spell slots and they can convert those spell slots into the most useful spell for the job each time, every time, at the cost of a comparatively small degree of versatility. That versatility is actually quite important when you're a D4 Hitdie pure class who needs everything they can get to stay alive and those spells are your only class feature.

    Yes, Sorcerers are at their best, like any mage, when they have level 9 spells, because level 9 spells are gamebreakers, and a multiclass sorcerer obliterates Mage multiclasses when they hit 6e6 Exp and start picking up 7-8 epic spells before they hit cap and 6/day level 9 spells, but the dichotomy between fewer spells but more of them doesn't stop favouring the sorcerer before then, Multiclass characters can generally get away with fewer available spells with more variety (and can also replace entire spell picks with second class features, especially /T and /C.
    mashedtatersGoturalgorgonzola
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