Are sorcerers an adequate replacement for mages?
mashedtaters
Member Posts: 2,266
When you roll a sorcerer, or when you have a sorcerer NPC, such as the Tashia or Kelsey mods, do you also bring along a mage, like Edwin? Is a sorcerer alone enough to compensate for not having a mage? Or is a sorcerer more like a secondary spellcaster?
Vote for your choice and explain why.
Vote for your choice and explain why.
- Are sorcerers an adequate replacement for mages?71 votes
- Who needs a mage when you have a sorcerer??39.44%
- Use a weaker arcane spellcaster, possibly a bard, for roles that a sorcerer can't fill32.39%
- Always bring a mage as your primary arcane spellcaster: sorcerers are secondary7.04%
- Sorcerers are dirty scum of the Faerûn and I hate them!1.41%
- I prefer 100% arcane parties, so I always have a sorcerer1.41%
- What is a sorcerer? What is a mage? Where am I??5.63%
- Other (explain)...12.68%
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Comments
Edit: Except cast Identify. -_- *groaaaan*
Yes, sorcerers are satisfactory. I'd go so far as to say that they could even be called cromulent.
When he is in the party he is always the main caster, the one who gets the robe, as he levels fast and (with my play style) is the one that can use it the best. This is the reason why I voted Use a weaker arcane spellcaster, possibly a bard, for roles that a sorcerer can't fill, even if the "weaker spellcaster" sometimes can be a couple a powerful dual that can cast lev9 spells.
Only in very little parties, 3 or sometime 4 people, the main arcane spellcaster can be a multi.
My personal opinion is that a sorcerer can replace a mage only if you know precisely what spells you need and have a plan for BG1 and BG2 when choose each spell. If you know it in details, then you rule supreme. If not, you can get a little bit disappointed as the game progresses with the choices you have made in terms of spells.
But, to me, if your party has another mage, and a sorcerer, in this case the sorcerer's influence and role will mean a lot. For this another mage, you'll choose those active spells that you presume will help in this or that battle. But if something will go wrong, your sorcerer can save you. For example, you have Edwin and he has Webs and Mirror Images for the 2nd spell level as active spells. But an enemy goes invisible. Then your sorcerer can quickly cast Detect Invisibility and the problem will be solved. This way, you'll always have a resource to counteract a situation that has not been planned.
Another good thing for a party when you have both a mage and a sorcerer is that the sorcerer can learn spells, the spell scrolls for which you haven't found yet and won't find in the nearest future, or that have only 1 spell scroll. In BGEE, it can include such useful spells as Spook, Invisibility, 10 Radius, Melf's Minute Meteors, Improved invisibility etc.
Below level 9 or 8, there are a lot of amazing spells for each spell level, and a sorcerer is often going to be relatively non-versatile. I've often found that my sorcerers can't handle new problems because they don't have the right spell on hand. No number of Fireball spells will help if you need Teleport Field. People often say there are only 5 good spells per spell level, but there are actually several more, and sorcerers don't get those 5 spells automatically. Most of the time, your sorcerer will have a fraction of the spell options as your mage.
In ToB, that changes dramatically. Wish can refresh the whole party's best spells and HLAs, and Wish is fairly reliable considering how many times you can cast it if you use Project Image. That's generally sufficient to handle most any problems, as ToB combat is usually less complex and focuses more on raw numbers than weird tricks, as is the case in SoA. I have found that my mages in ToB tend to pale in the shadow of sorcerers, simply because they don't have as many castings of Wish.
Both have tricks to cast infinitely - Projected Image Spell Trap cycles, Wish Rest, "using their pocket plane for its intended purpose".
Both can kill anything, including the plot.
Mages, however, can multiclass and do something else as well as wrecking game balance with mage spells, such as wrecking game balance with UAI and set snares, wrecking game balance with Contingency'd, alacrity'd Quest spells, and... conforming quite reasonably with game balance by wasting time swinging pointy objects.
Since I'm greedy, until sorcerers can multiclass too, my motivation to include one in my party at all is low.
Also the number of spells of each level that they can learn is limited, but there are spells of different level that do or can be combined to do something similar. With pierce magic, breach and ruby ray only a sorcerer can lower magical resistance, debuff mages protected by SI abjuration, debuff high level protections like magic trap and physical ones. He can handle the whole debuffing thing with just 3 of the 44 + HLA spells he can learn. If he add something other, I like dispel magic, is better, but no more is really needed. He don't need to learn also pierce shield, the whip, lower resistance, remove magic and so on.*
The same with damaging spells, with very few he can deal magical damage and elemental one of a couple of types so he can hit almost every foe.
In my experience what @semiticgod told about not being able to handle new problems is only true at low levels as at that point he know very few spells and have holes that will be filled in the future, items and wands can only mitigate this. But from a mid SoA level, in party (soloing at that point he cast ADHW), he have enough spells to handle each possible situation that is not from some crazy mod that allow only 1 solution based on a specific spell. He can not handle each situation with each possible tactic, but I never found a situation he can not handle and often in more then one way.
And if he doesn't have a backup mage or bard he can cast from scroll the time he really want that spell he don't know.
The key is a good spell selection, that lets him handle the lower levels without spells becoming not useful later and that see each area of the spell casting (buffing, debuffing, damaging and so on) with holistic approach spreading the needed spells in the levels.
*This 3 spells selection is only one of the possibile choices to handle debuffing, one that gave me good results, not the only one I use, and that show well how few spells can do if they are chosen with holistic approach.
Same goes for Protection from Acid to combine with Death Fog, both of which take up precious spots a sorcerer needs for Spell Immunity/Sunfire/Animate Dead/Breach or Improved Haste/PFMW/Contingency/Pierce Magic.
I only had one arcane spellcaster in the last party I used, and throughout SoA, I kept noticing that my sorcerer just didn't have the spells I wanted. Protection from Fire was only the beginning. The problem with scrolls is that you only get one casting per copy of the scroll itself. That's not enough to cover the whole party in one battle, or one person across multiple battles.
The spells I often use with my mages include:
Level 1: Magic Missile, Identify, Protection from Evil, Protection from Petrification, Blindness, Spook
Level 2: Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, Acid Arrow, Agannazar's Scorcher, Web, Stinking Cloud, Ray of Enfeeblement
Level 3: Fireball, Remove Magic, Flame Arrow, Monster Summoning I, Protection from Fire, Minor Spell Deflection, Spell Thrust
Level 4: Stoneskin, Teleport Field, Secret Word, MGOI, Improved Invisibility, Minor Sequencer, Polymorph Self, Polymorph Other, Greater Malison
Level 5: Breach, Sunfire, Spell Immunity, Animate Dead, Protection from Normal Weapons, Cloudkill
Level 6: Pierce Magic, PFMW, Contingency, Mislead, Improved Haste
Level 7: Project Image, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Khelben's Warding Whip, Mordenkainen's Sword, Mass Invisibility, Spell Sequencer
Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Maze, Power Word: Blind, Simulacrum, Symbol: Stun, Summon Fiend, Spell Trigger
Level 9: Time Stop, Chain Contingency, Shapechange, Imprisonment, Wish
By the time my sorcerers can cast all the spells I want, it's already ToB and Wish enjoys center stage.
With a sorcerer there are spells that "have to be learned", like Breach or Greater Malison, other spells, like the buffing an debuffing ones, that have to be choosen in a pool of spells to cover the function.
And after that there is space for very little else, spells like Protection from Normal Weapons, Imprisonment, Sunfire are luxuries for the sorc, he can live perfectly without them.
If he is very wise in choosing the spells that he really need to cover each area (not each possible tactic) he will have enough space for maybe 3 or 4 tactics based on specific spells. If he want to protect the party from fire and have fire damaging spells he can, in his spellbook there is enough space for Protection from Fire, Sunfire and Agannazar's Scorcher, without loosing any spell he can not live without. But if he chose so is at the price of some other tactic that the player can like but can also live without.
He doesn't have that kind of versatility, and is not for people who like that kind of versatility, a mage is much better and a wild mage perfect from that point of wiew.
But he don't lack versatility, have a lot of it, just of a different kind. He can decide what tactic, of the ones he can use, will use just a second before the battle. And he can change tactic in the middle of the battle if the one he is using is not working, much better than a mage.
I posted this only because your "relatively non-versatile" is something on which I agree, If we talk about the capability to perform every possible tactic the player know and love to use. But can be misleading if intended as non versatile in dealing with every situation with a good number of possible tactics in each single battle.
Sometimes I read that the party sorc has to be specialized for a single function (buffing sorc, mage killer, damage dealer), in my experience is not so, the sorcerer I am actually playng was a good all-round soloer and now is a perfect party sorc capable of each of those specific functions, even if his spells was chosen for a solo run. A sorcerer that have to be specialized is often only a one with a bad spell selection, with too much redundancy.
The real problem with mages, when they level enough, is to restrain ourselves to use their full power.
Think how hard can be an enemy mage, like Tolgerias, and he is very stupid because the game AI is limited, your mage can be much more powerful as your intelligence is much more adaptable and clever then his scripts, without using exploits. Add the exploits and who can stop him?
Some people have soloed ToB with a sorcerer without resting, wreaking havoc on every enemy using PI, IA, and time stop, using exploits to cast hundreds of ADHW (in EE this exploit is partially nerfed, but is still possible to clear an entire area with it).
Tolgerias is a good example, he is very stupid as his scripts can not do more that the game engine allow, but who wrote the scripts was not stupid and did know very well how to use the magic system. The result is that an unexperienced player meet him and half party is destroyed if a reload is not required. And he doesn't cheat or use exploits. No enemy fighter of his level can do that, a party of 6 against a strong troll always win, with a mage of the same level can easily loose.
The exploits themselves are imo quite neutral. You can use exploits to recharge the spellbook and also to recharge the spells of all the party and the n. charge for day items. powerful!!!
Or you can press the rest button and have the very same effect.
You can use both the exploit or the button or abuse of them to use each battle every spell and item charge, is up to you. Even in the last battle of the game on normal you can rest and rememorize, is not the exploit that kill the challenge and the fun, are your decisions.
A mage have a level 9 spell that let him cast for 2 rounds the spells without waiting for the beginning of the next round, is not an exploit, just a spell used in his proper and intended way. He can have also a robe and an amulet that cut the casting time, regolar game items. Combining those things he can cast an impressive number of spells in 2 rounds, maybe during a time stop. he can easily kill 2 or 3 dragons on normal difficulty in those 2 rounds, without any exploit.
The exploits are not needed, can be fun use some of them sometimes for even more power and destruction, even if not all people like that kind of fun, but are neutral as you can kill the challenge even without them.
As you can kill the challenge in many ways in this game, even without exploits. Using the shield of Balduran is an easy example as it trivialize the powerful beholders (and I am not telling that the new players do something wrong in using it, the beholders are a big problem for a newbie, maybe too big, and the shield was created for that reason).
So don't worry, the only thing in this game that can kill the challenge is yourself, if something, at your level of knowledge of the game, make the things too easy, avoid it. Or use it and impose yourself other limitations to bring back the challenge. Or sometimes use it to wreak havoc over Faerun. Sometimes, always is so boring.......
That's not mage though, that is a mage x, now you're bringing other classes into the mix when the discussion is about mages not multi/dual classes. While to most of you guys ya'll may see it still as a mage I don't. When you're combine the two concepts you're creating something new like a spell blade or a mage knight
@lunar
Wait, there is a NPC sorcerer now?
I found this rather one-dimensional, boring, therefore, a few years ago I decided to throw everything about arcane magic overboard and start from scratch and made new rules for myself.
1. I dedicate specialist mages to only use spells from their school and nothing else.
2. I use generalist mages/sorceresses/bards only with a certain theme. The themes are roughly categorised as...
- summoner / utility
- buffer
- dispeller / disabler
- direct damage dealer
- close combat
I sometimes couple kits/classes to these themes. Examples
- Blades/H'D would use the close combat style
- Skald would be often buffer
- Jester dispeller/disabler
- sorcerer would often be direct damage dealer
- general mages would often be summoner/utility
- Duals/multis will often focus on spells within a theme that are independent of levels, i.e. a multi will neither use dispel nor lower resistance nor pierce magic because they are just worse at it than a pure arcane class.
To answer the original question: if I run a sorceress, do I need a partial mage or bard? In my play style that would be a yes because one theme does not cover everything I probably need, in my old playstyle it would have been a no. (So yes, I run most parties with 2 characters that can cast arcane spells).
A sorcerer can be a sorcerer, or they can be a worse sorcerer, aka Dragon Disciple.
A sorcerer cannot choose a kit that gives them access to any scroll they can scribe, they cannot choose to dual from level 8 Fighter, giving them Grand Mastery and 8D10 + Fighter Con HP while still letting them hit max level 31 Mage, and they cannot gain access to 20D6 Spike Traps, endless time stops and the ability to leverage their invisibility spells into hundreds of damage per hit via backstab.
Whatever your feelings on the matter, if it wears no armour, casts level 9 prepared Arcane spells and picks up Dragon's Breath as an HLA then it's either a mage or a very confused Barbarian, and while you are entitled to hold opinions, the fact remains that mages come in many shapes and sizes that are all capable of filling a primary casting role while also serving as a valid double or triple threat, while sorcerers can't. In this respect, Sorcerers are not an adequate replacement.
And yes, beyond the two NPC mod characters mentioned in the OP there is one core sorcerer. His name is Baeloth.
Ah cromulent. That really embiggens my day.
Mmm... Chocolate chip...
Why do you say you don't need a mage if you have a sorcerer?