Why? Because it is true? Must I hide my feelings? There does not appear to be a governor on what the other side can say. Again fairness only applies to the left side.
Two years ago, I was just walking in an alley, doing my heterosexual thing, bringing flowers to my girlfriend. Then a guy (?) asked me what I was doing. I said I was bringing flowers to my girlfriend. Right after, something hit me behind the head, and I fell on the ground. I blacked out for a second, only to see I was surrounded by gay guys, some dressed as women. They were kicking me over and over, jabbing their pointy heel boots in my stomach. I curled up in a fetus position to defend myself.
A really brave guy came to my rescue and chased them away with a pitchfork. I ended up in the hospital for 10 days. Point is, violence happens everywhere, to everyone.
So assuming your story isn't meant to be a joke, let's ignore the fact that trans women esp. trans women of colour face immensely high rates of violence and discrimination when compared to the average?
Yeah no, I'm not going to be nice about this. The reason you post things like this is to try and obfuscate what happens to us. Which you would only possibly do if, on some level, you want it to keep happening. Anti-trans violence isn't a joke. And it's not "violence happens everywhere, to everyone". It's more dangerous to be a trans woman of colour in some parts of the US - and definitely places like Brazil - than it is to be in a soldier in some war zones.
Roseweave represents the typical liberal and quickly resorts to shouting down others and using foul language. No substance and no ability to 'tolerate' other views. Tolerance now means you must embrace and celebrate their belief, not merely be accepting of it. Political correctness has run amuck.
I'm mad because I've put up with well over a decade of subjugation over my identity while people like you act like their bigotry somehow stands on an equal podium to my very being and should be respected equally.
No I don't tolerate your views. And I'm not a "liberal". I don't tolerate views which are harmful to others, which is probably how I differ from "liberals". My existence is not a belief, or an artifact of "political correctness". It is because you utterly dehumanise me and reduce me to some pawn in some conspiracy with no agency, no feelings, no experiences of my own that I am angry.
I represent someone who's gotten a pretty hard shake of things and am well connected with those who have it even harder. Reducing my experiences to a political game of left vs. right you can play is ignorant in the extreme. You're acting like one side is being censored here but it's not true. I'm already on my last warning for getting angry.
And the thing is I have a RIGHT to get angry, because of what I've experienced. You(speaking about the average person who posts nonsense like "political correctness gone mad") have not been in this position.
The telltale sign is that people like you don't have what we call burn out. You don't break down. You don't go from trying to explaining a point to losing your crap completely because someone just refuses you basic respect or humanity. You don't know what it's like. It's not about two sides in an argument. It's about the fact that people like me EXIST and people like you make it difficult for us to even manage that.
They are the very definiton of abnormal a crocodile that thinks its a chicken is not a normal croc
That may not be the best of analogies, because crocodilians and avians(birds) are both archosaurs, therefore a crocodile and a chicken more closely biologically related to each other than crocodile is to a turtle, lizard or snake.
The point of this thread, and basically the end of any discussion the other side wants to make, is that the frickin' CREATOR of the Forgotten Realms has told you that there has been gender-neutral or even gender switching characters in this universe since the mid-80s. How does he know this?? BECAUSE HE INVENTED THE ENTIRE THING!!! You can have an opinion that contradicts this if you'd like. You can believe the moon landing was faked too. Doesn't mean your opinion has an ounce of credibility or that anyone should even pay any attention to it whatsoever. Such is the case here.
Roseweave represents the typical liberal and quickly resorts to shouting down others and using foul language. No substance and no ability to 'tolerate' other views. Tolerance now means you must embrace and celebrate their belief, not merely be accepting of it. Political correctness has run amuck.
I'm mad because I've put up with well over a decade of subjugation over my identity while people like you act like their bigotry somehow stands on an equal podium to my very being and should be respected equally.
No I don't tolerate your views. And I'm not a "liberal". I don't tolerate views which are harmful to others, which is probably how I differ from "liberals". My existence is not a belief, or an artifact of "political correctness". It is because you utterly dehumanise me and reduce me to some pawn in some conspiracy with no agency, no feelings, no experiences of my own that I am angry.
I represent someone who's gotten a pretty hard shake of things and am well connected with those who have it even harder. Reducing my experiences to a political game of left vs. right you can play is ignorant in the extreme. You're acting like one side is being censored here but it's not true. I'm already on my last warning for getting angry.
And the thing is I have a RIGHT to get angry, because of what I've experienced. You(speaking about the average person who posts nonsense like "political correctness gone mad") have not been in this position.
The telltale sign is that people like you don't have what we call burn out. You don't break down. You don't go from trying to explaining a point to losing your crap completely because someone just refuses you basic respect or humanity. You don't know what it's like. It's not about two sides in an argument. It's about the fact that people like me EXIST and people like you make it difficult for us to even manage that.
Thank you for sharing this....it won't change any minds, but it's the most human response anyone can make. If this doesn't change a person's mind, they aren't worth trying to save.
You don't understand. Ed Greenwood fears the huge Social Justice Warrior army. His message was written and altered out of fear. His testimony is invalid.
@Maximvs Setting aside for a moment the fact that Ed Greenwood's stance on transgender characters in the realms isn't a new phenomenon, attempting to derail the thread by constantly stating that he must be lying is profoundly unconstructive.
You don't understand. Ed Greenwood fears the huge Social Justice Warrior army. His message was written and altered out of fear. His testimony is invalid.
Hello friend. You make some interesting points here and I thank you. Could you please let me know what information you have acquired that leads you to this conclusion? Thanks again.
Full circle back to the face value vs conjecture argument.
We all know that companies avoid any negativity to be exposed in any way. The name Ed Greenwood is a brand, and it's in best interest to only say positive things.
You don't understand. Ed Greenwood fears the huge Social Justice Warrior army. His message was written and altered out of fear. His testimony is invalid.
Welcome to the denial state. "I cannot accept that this is true because I don't like it, therefore they MUST be lying."
People like you would spin conspiracies even when people like Ed would come to their house, and explain it over and over in the simplest and most direct way possible.
Full circle back to the face value vs conjecture argument.
We all know that companies avoid any negativity to be exposed in any way. The name Ed Greenwood is a brand, and it's in best interest to only say positive things.
My friend you have made several assumptions here, this is not an undeniable fact.
Considering whats been going on with Beamdog recently...... I'm glad to see the Irony Crisis is still going strong!
I'm not blaming Beamdog for it. They're a relatively new company and trying stuff out. Mistakes can happen. It's still a very small part of the game. Beside, they're scrambling to fix it too, by removing Minsc' line and adding lines to our transgender political statement. I suppose the latter is not the best fix possible but it's an improvement.
i had no idea the fantasy genre had so many bigoted fans. Seems like table top gaming at least is full of misfits like me. gender bending... or whatever dismissive offensive thing they wanna call it happens in all kinds of lifestyles. Its not just some downtown new york super modern liberal concept. Ever had a PE teacher? Ever been to a company softball game? Gender is a pendulum that swings from man to woman different for every person. Ive got an uncle that it's right smack in the middle of the scale. He's a lot happier than anyone Ive heard complaining about a couple dozen words in a great fantasy RPG
You don't understand. Ed Greenwood fears the huge Social Justice Warrior army. His message was written and altered out of fear. His testimony is invalid.
But if we point out that people actually DO fear Gamergate as well as the One Million Moms of the world(which D&D has a long history with, you might remember) you handwave it away. When someone is actually demonstrably coerced into some form of exclusion of censorship you don't address it, but this rather insultingly speculative instance of it is treated as gospel truth. There is a long history of exactly what you're saying going to the OTHER way(the comics code, the D&D controversies of the late 70s/80s) which has often been very direct censorship. SJWs trying to push for more respectful representation is not the same thing. Ed knows it when he sees it.
GG and it's adjacent groups are much more terrifying than "SJWs". They go after the vulnerable and try to ruin lives. I've been on the receiving end of an anti-SJW group. I've been bullied by people like that most of my life for being outspoken. There has been the odd time I've put a foot wrong and some SJW types tore into me. That sucked, and wasn't always the most helpful way of addressing the issue, but it wasn't a comparable experience.
GG and it's adjacent groups are much more terrifying than "SJWs". They go after the vulnerable and try to ruin lives.
I don't know about that. The SJW are way more numerous than these GG. SJW goes beyond gaming ; they are seen in every aspect of your social life. These GG people did some nasty stuff in the past, but nothing past written threats and exposing personal information on the net. SJW never really exposed personal info, but their vast numbers allow them to ruin lives even more.
Example, there's a guy that did a moronic thing ; he video taped some worker at a fast food restaurant and blamed her for her employer's stance, then posted it on the net. He was totally wrong to do that. Yes, he was. However, the video went viral and there were so many SJW around him that he lost his job, he never managed to find another job in time, he lost his home due to being unable to pay, I mean... his mistake cost him over 100 000 in $. That's the destructive power of social justice warriors. Their massive numbers allows them to think they're always right and thus they never see their mistake. They're potentially far more dangerous, even though you do not see an evil intent in them like we can see in GG folk.
Also, here's some new comments on Facebook from Ed Greenwood himself.
"As the cut and thrust over Siege of Dragonspear continues, it seems to me that many posters on the matter have wildly (in some cases, perhaps willfully) misinterpreted what I've said. I have NOT commented on how the game is written or plays, because (for years now) I have not been shown computer game licenses for my approval/lore input...including this one, so I CAN'T ethically comment on it (as I haven't seen it). I posted what I did in response to online gamer comments that claimed a trans character, or lesbian or gay characters, weren't in keeping with the lore of the Realms, and that there was no canon basis for them. That is BS, because such characters have been in the setting since before D&D or ANY computer games existed (yes, I created the Realms in the mid 1960s, before any roleplaying games had been crafted). So no one "misled" me, and no one is muzzling or directing what I say or can't say. I spoke out against some false arguments within my area of expertise (want "the" master of Realmslore? well, that'd be me), and went farther reacting to the hatred and vitriol expressed by some against people that in some cases they've never met and never will. I have not defended the writing or coding of the game, because I can't, simply because I have not personally seen or played it. And, no, I'm not avoiding this or any computer game deliberately; I simply have no time in my life for playing computer games except as part of paid work: I have a wife to nurse and a day job to hold down; writing, game design, and publishing are all "second job" work for me. Yes, really."
I posted what I did in response to online gamer comments that claimed a trans character, or lesbian or gay characters, weren't in keeping with the lore of the Realms, and that there was no canon basis for them. That is BS, because such characters have been in the setting since before D&D or ANY computer games existed (yes, I created the Realms in the mid 1960s, before any roleplaying games had been crafted).
Actions speaks louder than words. He may say what he wants, but he never created any transgender NPC. At least he never created any real transgender NPC, according to the real life definition of it, which is being born this way. All he did was some temporary magic here and there. Saying the truth would equate to a loss of revenues and social standing among his fan, and so, just as George Lucas scrambled an excuse to justify purple lightsabers for Samuel L Jackson, Ed Greenwood scrambles an excuse to justify the existence of transgender people for the Social Justice Warriors.
So? Is he obliged to create an NPC for every single combination of people out there? Did you miss the part where he said that sexuality is not important? Why do you care?
Oh, I know. The insecurities you're not admitting and grasping at straws, creating conspiracies and living in denial.
You don't like trans people. It has become painfully obvious to everyone that this is what it is. Because if it wasn't that, you wouldn't argue it for pages after pages and grasping at straws.
Here's how a truly neutral person would react: "Trans NPCs are officially supported, I don't care either one way or another for them. It's their world."
Your theories and conspiracies are irrelevant when both Ed Greenwood and WotC support trans characters.
Even if you think he's lying (which is a pretty grievous accusation to make), Ed Greenwood's words on the matter are treated as canon. In much the same way that George Lucas's decision to make Mace Windu's lightsaber purple, Ed Greenwood is perfectly within his rights as worldbuilder to clarify elements of his world that have not been codified.
You're more than welcome to ignore that canon in your tabletop games, of course--he said so as much in his original Facebook post--but in this case, Mr. Greenwood's words are final. Dragging the discussion out over a debate about whether or not you believe the words he said isn't helpful to anyone.
I still remember when BGEE announced bi/lesbian NPCs and everyone was using the same arguments:
"Bi/gay/lesbian characters don't fit with the lore bla bla bla SJWs bla bla bla not BG bla bla bla"
It's this thing all over again. This is the harsh truth everyone knows but don't admit: "I am uncomfortable and insecure about such characters because if I accept them, what does it mean about me or my beliefs? Therefore, I am consciously or not try to find reasons, where there are none, so I can justify it and call it something else."
Same thing seen with various religious people (but I won't elaborate more on that) that try to find reasons why homosexuality is wrong etc, instead of calling it what it is. Insecurity.
State of denial. Basic psychology. We deny that which makes us uncomfortable.
Well, he created characters of every type except transgender. Unless you wanna go in combos like lesbian-black or whatever.
So now, your argument has once more shifted from "There are no trans NPCs in the Realms" to "These don't count because magic or reasons" to "Greenwood was pressured by SJWs" to "there no mundane trans NPCs in the Realms".
So if I find an example of a mundane trans NPC in FR books would your next excuse be "well, that wasn't his work, some other one did it" or are you finally going to put it to rest?
What if Ed Greenwood's next book has actual mundane trans characters? Would your next excuse will be "Obviously he caved in to pressure and made that character, it doesn't count"?
Because if any those are going to be your responses, it is painfully obvious what the issue is and you're making excuses.
People like this make excuses all the time, no matter what kind of evidence you present them. There will always be an excuse or exception on which to place their argument.
Comments
Yeah no, I'm not going to be nice about this. The reason you post things like this is to try and obfuscate what happens to us. Which you would only possibly do if, on some level, you want it to keep happening. Anti-trans violence isn't a joke. And it's not "violence happens everywhere, to everyone". It's more dangerous to be a trans woman of colour in some parts of the US - and definitely places like Brazil - than it is to be in a soldier in some war zones.
No I don't tolerate your views. And I'm not a "liberal". I don't tolerate views which are harmful to others, which is probably how I differ from "liberals". My existence is not a belief, or an artifact of "political correctness". It is because you utterly dehumanise me and reduce me to some pawn in some conspiracy with no agency, no feelings, no experiences of my own that I am angry.
I represent someone who's gotten a pretty hard shake of things and am well connected with those who have it even harder. Reducing my experiences to a political game of left vs. right you can play is ignorant in the extreme. You're acting like one side is being censored here but it's not true. I'm already on my last warning for getting angry.
And the thing is I have a RIGHT to get angry, because of what I've experienced. You(speaking about the average person who posts nonsense like "political correctness gone mad") have not been in this position.
The telltale sign is that people like you don't have what we call burn out. You don't break down. You don't go from trying to explaining a point to losing your crap completely because someone just refuses you basic respect or humanity. You don't know what it's like. It's not about two sides in an argument. It's about the fact that people like me EXIST and people like you make it difficult for us to even manage that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archosaur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodilia#Evolution_and_classification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird#Evolution_and_classification
Setting aside for a moment the fact that Ed Greenwood's stance on transgender characters in the realms isn't a new phenomenon, attempting to derail the thread by constantly stating that he must be lying is profoundly unconstructive.
We all know that companies avoid any negativity to be exposed in any way. The name Ed Greenwood is a brand, and it's in best interest to only say positive things.
"I cannot accept that this is true because I don't like it, therefore they MUST be lying."
People like you would spin conspiracies even when people like Ed would come to their house, and explain it over and over in the simplest and most direct way possible.
(Someone else came up with it, but to my shame I can't remember who!)
gender bending... or whatever dismissive offensive thing they wanna call it happens in all kinds of lifestyles. Its not just some downtown new york super modern liberal concept.
Ever had a PE teacher?
Ever been to a company softball game?
Gender is a pendulum that swings from man to woman different for every person. Ive got an uncle that it's right smack in the middle of the scale. He's a lot happier than anyone Ive heard complaining about a couple dozen words in a great fantasy RPG
GG and it's adjacent groups are much more terrifying than "SJWs". They go after the vulnerable and try to ruin lives. I've been on the receiving end of an anti-SJW group. I've been bullied by people like that most of my life for being outspoken. There has been the odd time I've put a foot wrong and some SJW types tore into me. That sucked, and wasn't always the most helpful way of addressing the issue, but it wasn't a comparable experience.
Example, there's a guy that did a moronic thing ; he video taped some worker at a fast food restaurant and blamed her for her employer's stance, then posted it on the net. He was totally wrong to do that. Yes, he was. However, the video went viral and there were so many SJW around him that he lost his job, he never managed to find another job in time, he lost his home due to being unable to pay, I mean... his mistake cost him over 100 000 in $. That's the destructive power of social justice warriors. Their massive numbers allows them to think they're always right and thus they never see their mistake. They're potentially far more dangerous, even though you do not see an evil intent in them like we can see in GG folk.
"As the cut and thrust over Siege of Dragonspear continues, it seems to me that many posters on the matter have wildly (in some cases, perhaps willfully) misinterpreted what I've said.
I have NOT commented on how the game is written or plays, because (for years now) I have not been shown computer game licenses for my approval/lore input...including this one, so I CAN'T ethically comment on it (as I haven't seen it).
I posted what I did in response to online gamer comments that claimed a trans character, or lesbian or gay characters, weren't in keeping with the lore of the Realms, and that there was no canon basis for them. That is BS, because such characters have been in the setting since before D&D or ANY computer games existed (yes, I created the Realms in the mid 1960s, before any roleplaying games had been crafted).
So no one "misled" me, and no one is muzzling or directing what I say or can't say. I spoke out against some false arguments within my area of expertise (want "the" master of Realmslore? well, that'd be me), and went farther reacting to the hatred and vitriol expressed by some against people that in some cases they've never met and never will.
I have not defended the writing or coding of the game, because I can't, simply because I have not personally seen or played it. And, no, I'm not avoiding this or any computer game deliberately; I simply have no time in my life for playing computer games except as part of paid work: I have a wife to nurse and a day job to hold down; writing, game design, and publishing are all "second job" work for me. Yes, really."
https://www.facebook.com/TheEdVerse/timeline
So? Is he obliged to create an NPC for every single combination of people out there?
Did you miss the part where he said that sexuality is not important? Why do you care?
Oh, I know. The insecurities you're not admitting and grasping at straws, creating conspiracies and living in denial.
You don't like trans people. It has become painfully obvious to everyone that this is what it is.
Because if it wasn't that, you wouldn't argue it for pages after pages and grasping at straws.
Here's how a truly neutral person would react: "Trans NPCs are officially supported, I don't care either one way or another for them. It's their world."
Your theories and conspiracies are irrelevant when both Ed Greenwood and WotC support trans characters.
You're more than welcome to ignore that canon in your tabletop games, of course--he said so as much in his original Facebook post--but in this case, Mr. Greenwood's words are final. Dragging the discussion out over a debate about whether or not you believe the words he said isn't helpful to anyone.
I still remember when BGEE announced bi/lesbian NPCs and everyone was using the same arguments:
"Bi/gay/lesbian characters don't fit with the lore bla bla bla SJWs bla bla bla not BG bla bla bla"
It's this thing all over again. This is the harsh truth everyone knows but don't admit:
"I am uncomfortable and insecure about such characters because if I accept them, what does it mean about me or my beliefs?
Therefore, I am consciously or not try to find reasons, where there are none, so I can justify it and call it something else."
Same thing seen with various religious people (but I won't elaborate more on that) that try to find reasons why homosexuality is wrong etc, instead of calling it what it is. Insecurity.
State of denial. Basic psychology. We deny that which makes us uncomfortable.
So if I find an example of a mundane trans NPC in FR books would your next excuse be "well, that wasn't his work, some other one did it" or are you finally going to put it to rest?
What if Ed Greenwood's next book has actual mundane trans characters?
Would your next excuse will be "Obviously he caved in to pressure and made that character, it doesn't count"?
Because if any those are going to be your responses, it is painfully obvious what the issue is and you're making excuses.
People like this make excuses all the time, no matter what kind of evidence you present them.
There will always be an excuse or exception on which to place their argument.