From suggesting that things would be better if Miz was an elf, as somehow being a *human* transsexual is an issue.
From suggesting that real world prejudices against transsexuals should follow into the game world, when (as has been pointed out) there is 0 evidence anywhere suggesting that would be the case.
From taking a single line from a minor NPC and blowing it up to the point where so many people feel the need to post thread after thread condemning a writer.
It's as tiring as it is transparent.
You missed the point...
Its about making Mizhena a generically transex character.
She could have been human,elf,dwarven, half planar, Tiefling.
ANY RACE, i just gave an example of how i could do it. How she should be a character and not just set dressing.
And conflict is good for a good story, "everyone getting along" doesnt usually produce a very good adventure.
Viconia is a parallel to real life witch burnings, wouldnt be lame if everyone got along with her?
And its not just Mizhena, its general dialogue being railroaded, previous characters drastically changing personality...
All of that, i am not picking on the transex part, its just that its the most bought up subject when discussing this and its also part of the whole "the writing in this DLC is bad" aspect of my argument.
Geez people, please take a minute to read what i have written, maybe i shouldnt have used Mizhena... people seem to think i am just hogging into that particular bad piece of writing.
I agree with this post. Writers should stick to subjects they know and understand. Dragon Age's staff was mostly gay, so they wrote their LGBT adventures quite well, with depth of character and all. If Beamdog's staff is mostly straight, they should stick to straight adventures. Simple mathematics.
I agree with this post. Writers should stick to subjects they know and understand. Dragon Age's staff was mostly gay, so they wrote their LGBT adventures quite well, with depth of character and all. If Beamdog's staff is mostly straight, they should stick to straight adventures. Simple mathematics.
Not sure if its that simple, i would say anyone can write about anything with certain degree of experience. When i was doing Dynaheir dialogue, it took me alot of time to "get into her character", which was a sex/culture and ideology barrier to a certain extent.
I had to actually read up on Rashemen and Rashemi culture from the D&D expansion books to also give me a better undestanding of her.
But sure, by the end of the day, gay/lesbian/bi/transex/whatever can write about their own experiences much faster (and probably better) than someone who didint "lived it".
But also, one must take care to not put these real life experiences 1:1 into the story, they must always be adapted to the setting your writing for. Unless you wanna get into uncanny valley territory where you project someone's personal life into a videogame and sometimes things get weird.
And if what you said is true, it shows why Dorian is possibly the most awesome gay character i have ever found in a video game, his personal quest directly involved his sexuality, but it didint felt forced and i was more than happy to help him out, heck, he is permanently part of my squad, along with Cassandra and Verrick.
What i dont like She s kind of a piece of social propaganda, people have a hard time understanding that so i ll give exemple to illustrate it. Imagine you walk in, talk to a npc on the street of baldurs gate, out of nowhere the guy talk to you about communism..... you would of course see it for what it is, some kind of propaganda. Or imagine if in the middle of the lotr trilogy around a camp fire Gandalf started talking about the nature of homosexuality..... you would be like wtf? what any of this got to do with the story? Personally i really dislike ANY KIND of propaganda.
But the thing is they missed probably THE opportunity of the century. They should have made that trans character playable, a party member with a romance, and you learn her nature either in the story or in the romance, that would have been really great, an incredible surprise. Also the character would fit the story instead of being a some kind of walking info box about transexual....
So, you have written RPGs for 10 years? Which ones? Post them on here
That would take one heck of translation job since its in portuguese and most of them are written in bulletpoint form. Its nothing professionaly made, just stuff i wrote for playing with friends
If you truly want them, i can take pictures of the pages.
Off the top of my head, my best one was about an Steampunkish Europeanish faction (named the Red Rose Republic) that tries to invade the Dales/Neverwinter region, heroes are sent there from Cormyr thinking it was the Frost Giants who were causing ruckus and blocking trade routes, only to be met with literal gunfire and a full "conquistador" styled invasion, highlights include entering a conquered town, seeing how brutally savage the conquistadors are (treating people like animals),a possible real frost giant intervention, hijacking a steampunk train, infiltrating a 1800s style ball event to kidnap a RRR general,trying to steal a steampunk submarine and even attempting to sink the RRR Krakenfaust, the flagship of the whole invasion.
I actually planned the whole concept of my fictional "atlantis" (named Evernorth), home to the RRR and pretty much in a style that resembles a mix of all european imperialist nations in the 1800s, sadly the player group i made that adventure for never got to that part (as real life drama tored us apart)
I also wrote a napoleonic inspired adventure, where the Kingdom of Amn gets assaulted by "revolutionaries" that want to establish an independent kingdom, much like real life french revolution, these revolutionaries (made up of Humans and Orcs mercenaries, along with support from a neaby Dwarven holding) are rather brutal with the towns they take, i pit the players as being spies initially working for Amn, but as the adventure progresses, they can switch sides, but basically have to pick (or not) the lesser evil between the two. With Amn wanting to keep the old feudal order and the revolutionaries wanting to make republic, but being extremely brutal about it. The best part i remember about it is that i wrote "full speeches" for Val Reinheart, the self proclaimed "First Citizen" of the republic, the idea was to try to make him a figure head that would stay the players to the side of the republic (in real practice, i didint even need to do that, as my group was ready to full heartely support any kind of anti-monarchy ).
Lastly, from the stuff i remember well off the top of my head, we have a much more traditional adventure, where the players, while in route to their next destination (yes, this is more a side story, i think i originally wrote it when we were doing somekind of pathfinder campaign) find themselves stuck on a small mountain village, surrounded by a impenetrable myst that doesnt allow them to leave.
The whole place is cursed by a vampiress (By the name of Verona, who later turns out to be a shadow dragon) that has been driven bad because a century ago, she had her small child murdered by the local populace, everyone that knew about it is long dead, except for a elf magician that lives in the town and silently (and to an extend, amusingly) watches the entire drama unfold as the Vampiress,as ruler of the land torments the small village to no end, even demanding yearly sacrifices. Highlights include going through the village and possibly invoke the ire of the citizens (imagine Plymouth from call of cthulhu) due to their unwanted questions. Infiltrate the multi layered castle of the vampiress (and the catacombs nearby), discover that the elf has actually put a spell on said vampiress and that is the reason she as gone mad, either show somekind of simpathy for her and her tragic story or do a face-off with her in dragon form on top of the castle, confront the elf and possibly either just get the hell out of the town or fully face the mage and lift the curse for good.
Anyway, those are all vague guidelines that i can remember, everything i said is subject to drastic change if the party wants to do so. As i said the actual writing is mostly bullet points for all of this, because as we know "no planned adventure survives the encounter with the player party" So i never made a "fully written" adventure because i find there is usually no point in writing small detail that one can make on the spot if the players wish to explore. I usually do have guidelines for additional stuff, but from experience the parties never get to explore 100% of the adventure.
So yeah, i write everything in guidelines, from overall plot arch, dialogues, enemy sheets, etc.
EDIT: Oh, i just remembered one really long adventure where the whole gist of it was that Lolth died and the Underdark was in complete and utter chaos, with Mindflayers basically taking over the Drow empire while a the many drow slaves rebelled due to their priestesses losing their power...
So, you have written RPGs for 10 years? Which ones? Post them on here
That would take one heck of translation job since its in portuguese and most of them are written in bulletpoint form. Its nothing professionaly made, just stuff i wrote for playing with friends
If you truly want them, i can take pictures of the pages.
Off the top of my head, my best one was about an Steampunkish Europeanish faction (named the Red Rose Republic) that tries to invade the Dales/Neverwinter region, heroes are sent there from Cormyr thinking it was the Frost Giants who were causing ruckus and blocking trade routes, only to be met with literal gunfire and a full "conquistador" styled invasion, highlights include entering a conquered town, seeing how brutally savage the conquistadors are (treating people like animals),a possible real frost giant intervention, hijacking a steampunk train, infiltrating a 1800s style ball event to kidnap a RRR general,trying to steal a steampunk submarine and even attempting to sink the RRR Krakenfaust, the flagship of the whole invasion.
I actually planned the whole concept of my fictional "atlantis" (named Evernorth), home to the RRR and pretty much in a style that resembles a mix of all european imperialist nations in the 1800s, sadly the player group i made that adventure for never got to that part (as real life drama tored us apart)
I also wrote a napoleonic inspired adventure, where the Kingdom of Amn gets assaulted by "revolutionaries" that want to establish an independent kingdom, much like real life french revolution, these revolutionaries (made up of Humans and Orcs mercenaries, along with support from a neaby Dwarven holding) are rather brutal with the towns they take, i pit the players as being spies initially working for Amn, but as the adventure progresses, they can switch sides, but basically have to pick (or not) the lesser evil between the two. With Amn wanting to keep the old feudal order and the revolutionaries wanting to make republic, but being extremely brutal about it. The best part i remember about it is that i wrote "full speeches" for Val Reinheart, the self proclaimed "First Citizen" of the republic, the idea was to try to make him a figure head that would stay the players to the side of the republic (in real practice, i didint even need to do that, as my group was ready to full heartely support any kind of anti-monarchy ).
Lastly, from the stuff i remember well off the top of my head, we have a much more traditional adventure, where the players, while in route to their next destination (yes, this is more a side story, i think i originally wrote it when we were doing somekind of pathfinder campaign) find themselves stuck on a small mountain village, surrounded by a impenetrable myst that doesnt allow them to leave.
The whole place is cursed by a vampiress (By the name of Verona, who later turns out to be a shadow dragon) that has been driven bad because a century ago, she had her small child murdered by the local populace, everyone that knew about it is long dead, except for a elf magician that lives in the town and silently (and to an extend, amusingly) watches the entire drama unfold as the Vampiress,as ruler of the land torments the small village to no end, even demanding yearly sacrifices. Highlights include going through the village and possibly invoke the ire of the citizens (imagine Plymouth from call of cthulhu) due to their unwanted questions. Infiltrate the multi layered castle of the vampiress (and the catacombs nearby), discover that the elf has actually put a spell on said vampiress and that is the reason she as gone mad, either show somekind of simpathy for her and her tragic story or do a face-off with her in dragon form on top of the castle, confront the elf and possibly either just get the hell out of the town or fully face the mage and lift the curse for good.
Anyway, those are all vague guidelines that i can remember, everything i said is subject to drastic change if the party wants to do so. As i said the actual writing is mostly bullet points for all of this, because as we know "no planned adventure survives the encounter with the player party" So i never made a "fully written" adventure because i find there is usually no point in writing small detail that one can make on the spot if the players wish to explore. I usually do have guidelines for additional stuff, but from experience the parties never get to explore 100% of the adventure.
So yeah, i write everything in guidelines, from overall plot arch, dialogues, enemy sheets, etc.
EDIT: Oh, i just remembered one really long adventure where the whole gist of it was that Lolth died and the Underdark was in complete and utter chaos, with Mindflayers basically taking over the Drow empire while a the many drow slaves rebelled due to their priestesses losing their power...
What i dont like She s kind of a piece of social propaganda, people have a hard time understanding that so i ll give exemple to illustrate it. Imagine you walk in, talk to a npc on the street of baldurs gate, out of nowhere the guy talk to you about communism..... you would of course see it for what it is, some kind of propaganda. Or imagine if in the middle of the lotr trilogy around a camp fire Gandalf started talking about the nature of homosexuality..... you would be like wtf? what any of this got to do with the story? Personally i really dislike ANY KIND of propaganda.
But the thing is they missed probably THE opportunity of the century. They should have made that trans character playable, a party member with a romance, and you learn her nature either in the story or in the romance, that would have been really great, an incredible surprise. Also the character would fit the story instead of being a some kind of walking info box about transexual....
No...if an npc talked about overthrowing the Dukes and making a communist utopia...it'd be pretty cool. A demagogue railing against the system. It'd make the game feel more alive than having the same repeated dialogue everywhere.
And there lies our difference. I am not a communist, but I don't see progoganda everywhere I look.
Also if Gandalf said that then yeah. But we aren't talking about Gandalf.'we are talking about a minor npc with flavor text.
I do hope that when beamdog expands on her we don't get another shyt storm of people railing and screaming about progoganda and whatnot.
Hello friends. I also have serious concerns about the writing.
I started a new game and spoke to this character "Winthrop" and he tells me his hotel is as clean as an elven arse. That's... good to know? I don't know if he thinks elves don't defecate or if maybe they actually don't in this setting but this concept is never explored again.
He goes on to make a joke about an absurdly high entrance fee, which according to my character's response he says every time he sees me. I've gathered that I have known this man for about 20 years, yet he continues to make the same joke, day after day. So Winthrop is clearly dealing with some kind of compulsive disorder then and this joke is a kind of verbal tic I suppose. It goes together with his claims of cleanliness, I assume the hotel is so clean because of his compulsive nature, he just constantly cleans it. Once again, an intriguing character idea that is never brought up again. I guess the writers just wanted a token character with a mental condition.
Later on I meet my best friend since childhood who makes sure to introduce herself and tell me her name. Does my character suffer from some kind of memory problem (perhaps the reason for the journal?) or is this Imoen's own personal verbal tic? This same event occurs again a very short while later after you transition to the next area but the game never goes into which it is. Laziness again.
Ok, truly my last post for today (just finished a Starcraft 2 match and decided to check up on this!)
@Rawgrim Indeed i am and as i said on my OP, i write my own adventures. Being a DM is essential to write good virtual RPGs, from Chris Avellone to Josh Sawyer and all the "old guard" of CRPGs, they are were known to have at least been fans of table RPG (and with both Chris and Josh, known to be DMs).
This is the kind of experience i clearly see the team behind SoD lacks, its all about doing a very open adventure, not railroading everythign as if it was a linear book.
Ok, truly my last post for today (just finished a Starcraft 2 match and decided to check up on this!)
@Rawgrim Indeed i am and as i said on my OP, i write my own adventures. Being a DM is essential to write good virtual RPGs, from Chris Avellone to Josh Sawyer and all the "old guard" of CRPGs, they are were known to have at least been fans of table RPG (and with both Chris and Josh, known to be DMs).
This is the kind of experience i clearly see the team behind SoD lacks, its all about doing a very open adventure, not railroading everythign as if it was a linear book.
See, i also dont see "propaganda" everywhere and would fully love to see a well developed character that is transexual.
I also hope her "expansion" is a good one, but sadly while she might get fixed, the rest of the other character's dialogue probably wont.
Doesn't count if you haven't had anything officially published. Just making d&d sessions for your friends doesn't make you a writer. Nor does it add weight to your arguments.
Ok, truly my last post for today (just finished a Starcraft 2 match and decided to check up on this!)
@Rawgrim Indeed i am and as i said on my OP, i write my own adventures. Being a DM is essential to write good virtual RPGs, from Chris Avellone to Josh Sawyer and all the "old guard" of CRPGs, they are were known to have at least been fans of table RPG (and with both Chris and Josh, known to be DMs).
This is the kind of experience i clearly see the team behind SoD lacks, its all about doing a very open adventure, not railroading everythign as if it was a linear book.
See, i also dont see "propaganda" everywhere and would fully love to see a well developed character that is transexual.
I also hope her "expansion" is a good one, but sadly while she might get fixed, the rest of the other character's dialogue probably wont.
To say "I'm a DM who makes bullet point notes for my games" is not even CLOSE to saying "I'm a writer with 10 years of experience." I'm sorry, it just isn't. I'm 31 years old and have been DMing my own homebrewed adventures in FR since high school and I would never claim to be an "RPG writer" as you do. It's kinda laughable actually that you think writing a role playing video game is the same thing as making bullet point notes about what overall plot points to hit while at the DnD table.
Would it be great if when playing BG you had the kind of freedom one does at the DnD table to do literally anything you can think of? Absolutely. Is it feasible in a roleplaying video game in this day and age? Absolutely not.
You mention that the game doesn't change based on what alignment, class, or choices you make. It changes far more frequently than it does in BG 1 even with the NPC Project, which I've played extensively, installed.
You also claim that SoD doesn't cater to all alignments. How so? Because not every dialogue opportunity has the standard "Nice" "Neutral" "Jackass" options ala Mass Effect? Even though the majority of them do indeed follow this same guideline.
You also mention that Amber Scott mentioned she saw Jaheira as the "nagging wife" in BG1. How is this a criticism of her writing and not just an attempt to bash her views on the matter? She didn't write Jaheira in BG1. She mentioned her opinion on it. How does having this opinion make someone a bad writer?
Honest question, you said you played 5 hours of SoD, did you even meet Jaheira?
You mention bad writing then give us some examples of your own creative works, like shoe horning a massive "Steampunk" style army/faction into a setting that doesn't support guns or submarines outside of a very small island. It's never really mentioned whether the gnomes of Lantan ever fully invented the gun, actually. It's only mentioned that Gond revealed the secret of "smoke powder" which was the equivalent of black powder. What technical marvels they created with it was left ambiguous. Somehow, this technologically advanced army showing up out of nowhere, that was somehow not on anyone's radar, that was strong enough to have submarines and a sizeable enough army to invade nations is a better example of writing than Mihzena... a minor character you don't even need to talk to and who only mentions she is transgender if you ask about her strange name. Right.
*sigh* Sorry, for jumping in, I was reading this thread for a awhile now, because I found it had some valid critiques.
For me roleplaying was basically always a sandbox for a building your character in a story, and not a point and click adventure. So, question is, does SOD wants to be a p&c adventure or a RPG. If it's the latter, it should be neutral and prepare all sorts reactions even those, you personally might not like.
And a last personal note: Not well played, sires, not well played. I knew this was coming, when someone tried to lure Brazil into saying he's "just" a DM. I understand he was also actively involved in the modding community who kept BG all those years alive. Apart from that at least for me even the writers of a CRPG also have to be DMs, so they should have their experiences.
And to *all* sides involved (me included), argue on topics, don't attack messengers because you disagree with the message, and have some respect. /me so sad and dissappointed.
Ah, I remember back in the good old days we had a conversation like this once. In fact, I remember it like it was yesterday...
Just a few points I would like to mention. Beamdog is an indie developer. This isn't the next STARWARS movie. They don't have a budget that could fix Africa. They have deadlines that they have to hit. They were crunching pretty hard at the end to knock out bugs as best they could. Time and Money are a reality that a DM doesn't have to worry about when he is playing a game with his friends. I could argue that the UI isn't totally finished and multiplayer isn't stable. It's not a perfect world.
As a DM you might impress your friends but try to impress an army of basement dwellers the equivalent of the LOTR finale. I could pee on a sheet of paper and call it art but that doesn't make me an authoritative figure on how it should be done and I don't feel it's cool to tell others how to do their job.
It's ok if you don't like it. I might not like some of the writing either and stating your opinion is welcome here. Most of us have already had this conversation many times but it is an interesting topic and everyone has an opinion. The original BG was a great game but I don't see some ridiculously high standard of writing that SOD is failing to live up to but that is my opinion on the subject.
One last thing, I know some people are bent out of shape about the "too bad if you don't like it comment" But being strong and believing in your writing is part of the deal when your work is displayed to the masses. I am not saying that this is the type of attitude someone should take with their customers but it's almost par for the course if you are going to actually write something that YOU are proud of. It's called sticking to your guns and doing what you were hired to do. That doesn't mean they can't take criticism and improve the product which they are already doing.
My job requires extreme precision all the time. If I make a mistake it causes a load of problems for multiple people. I hate to have that talk with my boss when something goes wrong and I feel lower in the eyes of my colleagues who are all professionals. I would assume launching a game is an exciting thing but I can't fathom the feeling of having my work picked apart by a million armchair professionals and having to hear about it over and over again. No one is perfect and people make mistakes but it's especially brutal for those in the arts. Falling on stage or even gaining a little weight as a performer can bring on a huge load of negativity down on an artist's head. I am sure it pays off to have fans and make cool stuff but I at least try to be a little empathetic with people and their creations even if I am disappointed. That won't stop me from posting my opinion but it will stop me from going overboard. Oh look at the time.
I'd say there are a lot of writers who haven't been published professionally. I don't think that's necessarily the best definition.
However, the OP appealing to his own authority as a writer is a bit much. We basically have his word that he's "better than" Amber Scott, which isn't much to go on at all.
And to *all* sides involved (me included), argue on topics, don't attack messengers because you disagree with the message, and have some respect. /me so sad and dissappointed.
They are disagreeing with the fact he says he is an "RPG Writer"... While I don't really care what he is, he still has an opinion... Still saying "you suck" in his opening post is hardly respectful either, is it?
I'd say there are a lot of writers who haven't been published professionally. I don't think that's necessarily the best definition.
This is true - hobbyist writers will still count as writers. I'd additionally consider the thousands that (have) participate(d) in NaNoWriMo's to be writers although the quality can be somewhat sparing, a narrative has been conveyed through mean of a novel.
Edit: Of-course there are many literary styles one can write in - you don't specifically have to write novels to be a writer. There is just a difference from "making a living" as a writer. And being a writer.
And yes, I wouldn't say that either. On another note, he already stated English is not his first language (same is true for me and I try my best to cope with you guys), so I wouldn't hold any misplaced expression against him.
For me it felt more like a pun (wasn't there a smiley) against the "too bad", but I could be wrong. Guess we have to wait what the OP says.
/e: I agree with you if he qualifies, what others define, as a writer... it doesn't matter.
First of all, as TrentOster posted - the game is a group effort. So let's say "Beamdog" and not point at anyone in particular.
Amber has a boss (at least TrentOster) and she has a team of writers that work with her. So the game writing is not 100% on her shoulders.
Now, on the topic of the writing. My take on the EE versions.
I abhor Neera and the Dorn. I like Rasaad (and his story). I don't care much for Hexxat, but she was mildly interesting. I give the writing introduced by Beamdog a general solid 6 or 7 most of the time (with Dorn being an extreme low of 3 and Rasaad's a solid 8).
My only issue is when in the interview (and subsequent comments), Beamdog said they will change X or Y and put W and Z in the game because that is what they think is right and the correct way a character should be - regardless if ends being considered "fake or forced".
That is very bad.
I hope that Beamdog takes advantage of working as a group and focus on delivering multi-dimensional and open story.
As I said in other topics:
Make the game open-end and open in interaction and with many options and diversity. Present it in the most realistic manner you can and then give players the option to approach it and interact with it with a lot of variety.
All I want from Baldur's Gate is a game that has variety, that has a bit of every spice.
Put sexism, conservationism, progressiveness, and all other "ism" and "ness" that are out there - and even more, please add them with a touch of gray to show virtues and flaws in all sides of all these "ism" and "nesses". Also give us the chance to approach that diversity using the all the "ism" and "ness" so we can role play!
In all seriousness, in my view I would totally support having the option to be the most extreme liberal and all in-betweens up to the most extreme conservative, with equal variety in the companions.
Obviously that is a dream and would require monumental efforts, but I can settle with a solid amount of diversity (think like BG 2 with a bit more).
@Rody THANK YOU! This is the best post I have seen on the forum regarding this controversy. A standing ovation for you, you put it far better than I could have.
For sure, I was just pointing out that they have way more money and have a much larger team and with that, usually comes higher expectations from the masses.
Just a few points I would like to mention. Beamdog is an indie developer. This isn't the next STARWARS movie.
Thank God for that. Star Wars' writing might actually be worse than Beamdog's.
/OT *grins* this very thing happened when I bought and watched the SE of the original SW Trilogy and things were crucially different/worse/CGI'd than the films I watched as a teen. I mean Han shot first, didn't he.
*sigh* Sorry, for jumping in, I was reading this thread for a awhile now, because I found it had some valid critiques.
For me roleplaying was basically always a sandbox for a building your character in a story, and not a point and click adventure. So, question is, does SOD wants to be a p&c adventure or a RPG. If it's the latter, it should be neutral and prepare all sorts reactions even those, you personally might not like.
And a last personal note: Not well played, sires, not well played. I knew this was coming, when someone tried to lure Brazil into saying he's "just" a DM. I understand he was also actively involved in the modding community who kept BG all those years alive. Apart from that at least for me even the writers of a CRPG also have to be DMs, so they should have their experiences.
And to *all* sides involved (me included), argue on topics, don't attack messengers because you disagree with the message, and have some respect. /me so sad and dissappointed.
I agree that the more options one can have in a game the better, and while there are a few (I think I've counted two so far) options that seem more narrow than what would be ideal, to say because of a very few instances where not every imaginable response is effectively represented that the writing of the game on the whole is bad seems silly to me. As does suggesting it is no longer an RPG. That would be like me suggesting BG1 isn't actually an RPG because I couldn't effectively roleplay a character who was a raving madman in EVERY interaction. I can do it in quite a few... but not all, so it ceases to be an RPG. Simply silly.
Should they strive to make a lot of options for your character? Absolutely. Did they? Absolutely. Is every option anyone could want offered at all time? Well, no. That's not really feasible.
As for the criticism of @br4zil as "just a dm" or a bad writer... I think he kind of brought that on himself didn't he? Let's be clear, I don't think you need to be a writer to have an opinion or criticise someone else's writing. I don't think you need to have played professional football to be a sports fan either. But, when you make a post detailing why you think someone else is a bad writer, and you mention that your opinion holds more weight than other's because you're a writer with ten years experience and that turns out to not be factually true... you kinda have it coming if someone goes ahead and criticizes you back, don't ya think? Especially if you mention that you think they implemented things into the setting that don't seem to fit and the first example of your writing you give is this time that you implemented something way more impactful into the setting that doesn't fit. I'm just saying don't call the kettle black.
Guys they have already been straight forward by backing their team, this is the direction beamdog is heading with the baldure's gate ip. Iv been playing baldure's gate since its come out when I was young and every expansion all completed many times over. You can't force a baby back into the womb, you can't undo this "expansions" release.
Jaheira is the strongest good female in bg1, and the writer says she is portrayed as a "nagging wife" ? Characters randomly walking up to you for the purpose of telling you they are transsexual, a child worried about her mum going away to war then randomly saying her mum doesn't need a male(hero of baldure's gate) to protect her... Then why worry? Minsc talking about ethics"GG crap" which with his intelligence he shouldn't even know what the word means. Ultimately the agenda is here to stay as quoted "If people don't like that, then too bad."
iv read and seen more then enough to know a sjw agenda is being pushed here, so I and my friends are going to play it for 2hrs give it a bad review(probably) get a refund and move on. No point causing a big fuss everyone loses then , your wallet talks louder then your words to companies. They will learn or go bankrupt. With kids you don't reward bad behaviour, same with companies and products.
It just sucks how they have singled out transsexual people, I'm truly sorry mates.
Comments
Its about making Mizhena a generically transex character.
She could have been human,elf,dwarven, half planar, Tiefling.
ANY RACE, i just gave an example of how i could do it. How she should be a character and not just set dressing.
And conflict is good for a good story, "everyone getting along" doesnt usually produce a very good adventure.
Viconia is a parallel to real life witch burnings, wouldnt be lame if everyone got along with her?
And its not just Mizhena, its general dialogue being railroaded, previous characters drastically changing personality...
All of that, i am not picking on the transex part, its just that its the most bought up subject when discussing this and its also part of the whole "the writing in this DLC is bad" aspect of my argument.
Geez people, please take a minute to read what i have written, maybe i shouldnt have used Mizhena... people seem to think i am just hogging into that particular bad piece of writing.
I had to actually read up on Rashemen and Rashemi culture from the D&D expansion books to also give me a better undestanding of her.
But sure, by the end of the day, gay/lesbian/bi/transex/whatever can write about their own experiences much faster (and probably better) than someone who didint "lived it".
But also, one must take care to not put these real life experiences 1:1 into the story, they must always be adapted to the setting your writing for. Unless you wanna get into uncanny valley territory where you project someone's personal life into a videogame and sometimes things get weird.
And if what you said is true, it shows why Dorian is possibly the most awesome gay character i have ever found in a video game, his personal quest directly involved his sexuality, but it didint felt forced and i was more than happy to help him out, heck, he is permanently part of my squad, along with Cassandra and Verrick.
She s kind of a piece of social propaganda, people have a hard time understanding that so i ll give exemple to illustrate it. Imagine you walk in, talk to a npc on the street of baldurs gate, out of nowhere the guy talk to you about communism..... you would of course see it for what it is, some kind of propaganda. Or imagine if in the middle of the lotr trilogy around a camp fire Gandalf started talking about the nature of homosexuality..... you would be like wtf? what any of this got to do with the story?
Personally i really dislike ANY KIND of propaganda.
But the thing is they missed probably THE opportunity of the century.
They should have made that trans character playable, a party member with a romance, and you learn her nature either in the story or in the romance, that would have been really great, an incredible surprise. Also the character would fit the story instead of being a some kind of walking info box about transexual....
If you truly want them, i can take pictures of the pages.
Off the top of my head, my best one was about an Steampunkish Europeanish faction (named the Red Rose Republic) that tries to invade the Dales/Neverwinter region, heroes are sent there from Cormyr thinking it was the Frost Giants who were causing ruckus and blocking trade routes, only to be met with literal gunfire and a full "conquistador" styled invasion, highlights include entering a conquered town, seeing how brutally savage the conquistadors are (treating people like animals),a possible real frost giant intervention, hijacking a steampunk train, infiltrating a 1800s style ball event to kidnap a RRR general,trying to steal a steampunk submarine and even attempting to sink the RRR Krakenfaust, the flagship of the whole invasion.
I actually planned the whole concept of my fictional "atlantis" (named Evernorth), home to the RRR and pretty much in a style that resembles a mix of all european imperialist nations in the 1800s, sadly the player group i made that adventure for never got to that part (as real life drama tored us apart)
I also wrote a napoleonic inspired adventure, where the Kingdom of Amn gets assaulted by "revolutionaries" that want to establish an independent kingdom, much like real life french revolution, these revolutionaries (made up of Humans and Orcs mercenaries, along with support from a neaby Dwarven holding) are rather brutal with the towns they take, i pit the players as being spies initially working for Amn, but as the adventure progresses, they can switch sides, but basically have to pick (or not) the lesser evil between the two. With Amn wanting to keep the old feudal order and the revolutionaries wanting to make republic, but being extremely brutal about it. The best part i remember about it is that i wrote "full speeches" for Val Reinheart, the self proclaimed "First Citizen" of the republic, the idea was to try to make him a figure head that would stay the players to the side of the republic (in real practice, i didint even need to do that, as my group was ready to full heartely support any kind of anti-monarchy
Lastly, from the stuff i remember well off the top of my head, we have a much more traditional adventure, where the players, while in route to their next destination (yes, this is more a side story, i think i originally wrote it when we were doing somekind of pathfinder campaign) find themselves stuck on a small mountain village, surrounded by a impenetrable myst that doesnt allow them to leave.
The whole place is cursed by a vampiress (By the name of Verona, who later turns out to be a shadow dragon) that has been driven bad because a century ago, she had her small child murdered by the local populace, everyone that knew about it is long dead, except for a elf magician that lives in the town and silently (and to an extend, amusingly) watches the entire drama unfold as the Vampiress,as ruler of the land torments the small village to no end, even demanding yearly sacrifices. Highlights include going through the village and possibly invoke the ire of the citizens (imagine Plymouth from call of cthulhu) due to their unwanted questions. Infiltrate the multi layered castle of the vampiress (and the catacombs nearby), discover that the elf has actually put a spell on said vampiress and that is the reason she as gone mad, either show somekind of simpathy for her and her tragic story or do a face-off with her in dragon form on top of the castle, confront the elf and possibly either just get the hell out of the town or fully face the mage and lift the curse for good.
Anyway, those are all vague guidelines that i can remember, everything i said is subject to drastic change if the party wants to do so. As i said the actual writing is mostly bullet points for all of this, because as we know "no planned adventure survives the encounter with the player party" So i never made a "fully written" adventure because i find there is usually no point in writing small detail that one can make on the spot if the players wish to explore. I usually do have guidelines for additional stuff, but from experience the parties never get to explore 100% of the adventure.
So yeah, i write everything in guidelines, from overall plot arch, dialogues, enemy sheets, etc.
EDIT: Oh, i just remembered one really long adventure where the whole gist of it was that Lolth died and the Underdark was in complete and utter chaos, with Mindflayers basically taking over the Drow empire while a the many drow slaves rebelled due to their priestesses losing their power...
Anyway, i will leave that one for tomorrow :P .
Whew... you actually took me on a huge ass nostalgia trip....
Its 2am over here and i will go catch some shut eye... thanks for making me remember the good times friend
So basically you are a DM?
And there lies our difference. I am not a communist, but I don't see progoganda everywhere I look.
Also if Gandalf said that then yeah. But we aren't talking about Gandalf.'we are talking about a minor npc with flavor text.
I do hope that when beamdog expands on her we don't get another shyt storm of people railing and screaming about progoganda and whatnot.
I started a new game and spoke to this character "Winthrop" and he tells me his hotel is as clean as an elven arse. That's... good to know? I don't know if he thinks elves don't defecate or if maybe they actually don't in this setting but this concept is never explored again.
He goes on to make a joke about an absurdly high entrance fee, which according to my character's response he says every time he sees me. I've gathered that I have known this man for about 20 years, yet he continues to make the same joke, day after day. So Winthrop is clearly dealing with some kind of compulsive disorder then and this joke is a kind of verbal tic I suppose. It goes together with his claims of cleanliness, I assume the hotel is so clean because of his compulsive nature, he just constantly cleans it. Once again, an intriguing character idea that is never brought up again. I guess the writers just wanted a token character with a mental condition.
Later on I meet my best friend since childhood who makes sure to introduce herself and tell me her name. Does my character suffer from some kind of memory problem (perhaps the reason for the journal?) or is this Imoen's own personal verbal tic? This same event occurs again a very short while later after you transition to the next area but the game never goes into which it is. Laziness again.
@Rawgrim Indeed i am and as i said on my OP, i write my own adventures. Being a DM is essential to write good virtual RPGs, from Chris Avellone to Josh Sawyer and all the "old guard" of CRPGs, they are were known to have at least been fans of table RPG (and with both Chris and Josh, known to be DMs).
This is the kind of experience i clearly see the team behind SoD lacks, its all about doing a very open adventure, not railroading everythign as if it was a linear book.
@Grum
See, i also dont see "propaganda" everywhere and would fully love to see a well developed character that is transexual.
I also hope her "expansion" is a good one, but sadly while she might get fixed, the rest of the other character's dialogue probably wont.
Would it be great if when playing BG you had the kind of freedom one does at the DnD table to do literally anything you can think of? Absolutely. Is it feasible in a roleplaying video game in this day and age? Absolutely not.
You mention that the game doesn't change based on what alignment, class, or choices you make. It changes far more frequently than it does in BG 1 even with the NPC Project, which I've played extensively, installed.
You also claim that SoD doesn't cater to all alignments. How so? Because not every dialogue opportunity has the standard "Nice" "Neutral" "Jackass" options ala Mass Effect? Even though the majority of them do indeed follow this same guideline.
You also mention that Amber Scott mentioned she saw Jaheira as the "nagging wife" in BG1. How is this a criticism of her writing and not just an attempt to bash her views on the matter? She didn't write Jaheira in BG1. She mentioned her opinion on it. How does having this opinion make someone a bad writer?
Honest question, you said you played 5 hours of SoD, did you even meet Jaheira?
You mention bad writing then give us some examples of your own creative works, like shoe horning a massive "Steampunk" style army/faction into a setting that doesn't support guns or submarines outside of a very small island. It's never really mentioned whether the gnomes of Lantan ever fully invented the gun, actually. It's only mentioned that Gond revealed the secret of "smoke powder" which was the equivalent of black powder. What technical marvels they created with it was left ambiguous. Somehow, this technologically advanced army showing up out of nowhere, that was somehow not on anyone's radar, that was strong enough to have submarines and a sizeable enough army to invade nations is a better example of writing than Mihzena... a minor character you don't even need to talk to and who only mentions she is transgender if you ask about her strange name. Right.
For me roleplaying was basically always a sandbox for a building your character in a story, and not a point and click adventure.
So, question is, does SOD wants to be a p&c adventure or a RPG. If it's the latter, it should be neutral and prepare all sorts reactions even those, you personally might not like.
And a last personal note: Not well played, sires, not well played. I knew this was coming, when someone tried to lure Brazil into saying he's "just" a DM. I understand he was also actively involved in the modding community who kept BG all those years alive. Apart from that at least for me even the writers of a CRPG also have to be DMs, so they should have their experiences.
And to *all* sides involved (me included), argue on topics, don't attack messengers because you disagree with the message, and have some respect. /me so sad and dissappointed.
Just a few points I would like to mention. Beamdog is an indie developer. This isn't the next STARWARS movie. They don't have a budget that could fix Africa. They have deadlines that they have to hit. They were crunching pretty hard at the end to knock out bugs as best they could. Time and Money are a reality that a DM doesn't have to worry about when he is playing a game with his friends. I could argue that the UI isn't totally finished and multiplayer isn't stable. It's not a perfect world.
As a DM you might impress your friends but try to impress an army of basement dwellers the equivalent of the LOTR finale. I could pee on a sheet of paper and call it art but that doesn't make me an authoritative figure on how it should be done and I don't feel it's cool to tell others how to do their job.
It's ok if you don't like it. I might not like some of the writing either and stating your opinion is welcome here. Most of us have already had this conversation many times but it is an interesting topic and everyone has an opinion. The original BG was a great game but I don't see some ridiculously high standard of writing that SOD is failing to live up to but that is my opinion on the subject.
One last thing, I know some people are bent out of shape about the "too bad if you don't like it comment" But being strong and believing in your writing is part of the deal when your work is displayed to the masses. I am not saying that this is the type of attitude someone should take with their customers but it's almost par for the course if you are going to actually write something that YOU are proud of. It's called sticking to your guns and doing what you were hired to do. That doesn't mean they can't take criticism and improve the product which they are already doing.
My job requires extreme precision all the time. If I make a mistake it causes a load of problems for multiple people. I hate to have that talk with my boss when something goes wrong and I feel lower in the eyes of my colleagues who are all professionals. I would assume launching a game is an exciting thing but I can't fathom the feeling of having my work picked apart by a million armchair professionals and having to hear about it over and over again. No one is perfect and people make mistakes but it's especially brutal for those in the arts. Falling on stage or even gaining a little weight as a performer can bring on a huge load of negativity down on an artist's head. I am sure it pays off to have fans and make cool stuff but I at least try to be a little empathetic with people and their creations even if I am disappointed. That won't stop me from posting my opinion but it will stop me from going overboard. Oh look at the time.
However, the OP appealing to his own authority as a writer is a bit much. We basically have his word that he's "better than" Amber Scott, which isn't much to go on at all.
Edit: Of-course there are many literary styles one can write in - you don't specifically have to write novels to be a writer.
There is just a difference from "making a living" as a writer. And being a writer.
Again: to *all* sides...
And yes, I wouldn't say that either. On another note, he already stated English is not his first language (same is true for me and I try my best to cope with you guys), so I wouldn't hold any misplaced expression against him.
For me it felt more like a pun (wasn't there a smiley) against the "too bad", but I could be wrong. Guess we have to wait what the OP says.
/e: I agree with you if he qualifies, what others define, as a writer... it doesn't matter.
Should they strive to make a lot of options for your character? Absolutely. Did they? Absolutely. Is every option anyone could want offered at all time? Well, no. That's not really feasible.
As for the criticism of @br4zil as "just a dm" or a bad writer... I think he kind of brought that on himself didn't he? Let's be clear, I don't think you need to be a writer to have an opinion or criticise someone else's writing. I don't think you need to have played professional football to be a sports fan either. But, when you make a post detailing why you think someone else is a bad writer, and you mention that your opinion holds more weight than other's because you're a writer with ten years experience and that turns out to not be factually true... you kinda have it coming if someone goes ahead and criticizes you back, don't ya think? Especially if you mention that you think they implemented things into the setting that don't seem to fit and the first example of your writing you give is this time that you implemented something way more impactful into the setting that doesn't fit. I'm just saying don't call the kettle black.
Jaheira is the strongest good female in bg1, and the writer says she is portrayed as a "nagging wife" ? Characters randomly walking up to you for the purpose of telling you they are transsexual, a child worried about her mum going away to war then randomly saying her mum doesn't need a male(hero of baldure's gate) to protect her... Then why worry? Minsc talking about ethics"GG crap" which with his intelligence he shouldn't even know what the word means. Ultimately the agenda is here to stay as quoted "If people don't like that, then too bad."
iv read and seen more then enough to know a sjw agenda is being pushed here, so I and my friends are going to play it for 2hrs give it a bad review(probably) get a refund and move on. No point causing a big fuss everyone loses then , your wallet talks louder then your words to companies. They will learn or go bankrupt. With kids you don't reward bad behaviour, same with companies and products.
It just sucks how they have singled out transsexual people, I'm truly sorry mates.