1 to Mr. Creosote? Really? Was the game unplayable?
@mf2112: Not unplayable...as i said i am currently on my third round through it. I think you may have missunderstood my comment.
I am not quite sure how to misunderstand "1 to Mr. Creosote". Those are "ratings" I might give to a game which is unplayable. Not to a game which I was on the third playthrough on........
Wich is why this isnt the rating i gave to the game...wich is why i think you might have missunderstood what i was saying...in case you are interested in my opinion: For me SoD is a solid 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. (Already discounting the Bugs.)
The comment i gave was meant: you critque a chef more and longer proportional to the distaste the food left in your mouth. Because Purudaya said
1 to Mr. Creosote? Really? Was the game unplayable?
@mf2112: Not unplayable...as i said i am currently on my third round through it. I think you may have missunderstood my comment.
I am not quite sure how to misunderstand "1 to Mr. Creosote". Those are "ratings" I might give to a game which is unplayable. Not to a game which I was on the third playthrough on........
Wich is why this isnt the rating i gave to the game...wich is why i think you might have missunderstood what i was saying...in case you are interested in my opinion: For me SoD is a solid 5 on a scale from 1 to 10.
The comment i gave was meant: you critque a chef more and longer proportional to the distaste the food left in your mouth. Because Purudaya said
I'm of course entitled to my opinion, but it would be kind of weird if I spent ages criticising the chef's cooking ability over it.
I don't think I misunderstood as much as you are giving conflicting opinions. If it is that bad as to make you say "1 to Mr. Creosote" then why are you playing it through a third time? If it is a solid 5 then why are you saying "1 to Mr. Creosote"? Do you really believe that "Mr. Creosote" is a 5?
Do i think anyone in the BG modding community, on average could write a better story than what Philip & Co. did?
Yes, that includes myself. I would also go on a whim and say that the average reader here at the forums could probably do a better job at it. I have read both on here and on Steam numerous ideas, some of them being really nice and some being really freaking common sense, common sense that apparently they didint had.
Well, you're not doing a great job convincing me of your superior writing skills. Go on a whim? That doesn't even make sense. I think what you're "trying" to say is that you would also "go out on a limb". The ability to make sense when you write is a pretty critical part of doing it well.
Also, "common sense that they didn't had?" That should say that they didn't have.
I don't agree with him on much if anything, but I believe @br4zil has said that English isn't his primary language.
@mf2112: when i said 1 to Mr. Creosote i wasnt refering to a game but to the hypothetical scenario that you dont like the food as much...it was meant as a funny note as to how much someone can dislike somethin.
imho, bad style. not everyone around is native here, including me. Picking on english mistakes feels a bit like someone brought a wand to a sword fight. But maybe you could read his portugese texts and decide if he's a good writer, modder or not.
Do i think anyone in the BG modding community, on average could write a better story than what Philip & Co. did?
Yes, that includes myself. I would also go on a whim and say that the average reader here at the forums could probably do a better job at it. I have read both on here and on Steam numerous ideas, some of them being really nice and some being really freaking common sense, common sense that apparently they didint had.
Well, you're not doing a great job convincing me of your superior writing skills. Go on a whim? That doesn't even make sense. I think what you're "trying" to say is that you would also "go out on a limb". The ability to make sense when you write is a pretty critical part of doing it well.
Also, "common sense that they didn't had?" That should say that they didn't have.
I don't agree with him on much if anything, but I believe @br4zil has said that English isn't his primary language.
Okay, if that's the case, and English is not a language that he's doing his RPG writing in, than I'm obviously not in a good position to judge.
hmmh, it seems a general problem over here. Too many assumptions, snarky remarks all around and no real talking and working for making things better. Lot's of chaotic/evil so to speak.
I'm not used to this for the game I mod for or the projects I code for. There are heated discussions but no disrespecting the opposite to "win" the thread/opion/discussion or whatnot, which I see constantly here over here.
iv read and seen more then enough to know a sjw agenda is being pushed here, so I and my friends are going to play it for 2hrs give it a bad review(probably) get a refund and move on.
At least you're honest that your review is pre-determined sight-unseen and have no intention of giving it an honest review.
Jaheira is the strongest good female in bg1, and the writer says she is portrayed as a "nagging wife" ? Characters randomly walking up to you for the purpose of telling you they are transsexual, a child worried about her mum going away to war then randomly saying her mum doesn't need a male(hero of baldure's gate) to protect her... Then why worry?
Actually, Rohma's line is "Mama doesn't need you. She can take care of herself." This is said in response to a dialog choice by the player of "Have no fear, Rohma. I'll make sure nothing happens to your mother." It is said to a CHARNAME of either gender. There's nothing in Rohma's line about how her mother doesn't need a *man* to take care of her. She's just saying that her mom is tough as nails and she doesn't need "The Hero of Baldur's Gate" (male or female) to protect her.
You and everyone else who kvetches about this line as "mansplaining" are reading your own biases into the line. It says more about *you* than any of the writers.
If i wanted to make a transexual character, using an elf would be the logical choice, one would even write a in-game dialogue about a transexual elf who gets harrassed by humans and the PC could step in. Maybe said elf would be with his/her own group of friends who find his/her sexuality completely normal, while humans dont.
Elves are much more accepting of diferent kinds of sexuality and one could go to town while making arguments pro and against this atitude with the Elfs vs Humans event.
Stuff like this is why cis people should butt out of giving advice on how to portray trans characters. Cis writers looking to do research should only be listening to trans voices, or at least ones that have a wealth of experiencing writing LGBT characters in general. I mean, my only non-binary character in my fics is an Elf so I could probably do better, but when your only trans chracter is an Elf it's a bit of a cop out.
Transgender character of any sort is a cop out. Modern views can't really apply to Faerun, due to magic.
Played D&D 2nd edition - Transgender characters don't really exist (and make no sense in setting) in D&D 2nd edition. Sexual identity isn't an issue in the setting because it's as simple as paying a few hundred gold and puff. You can literally change your gender moniker. This is a failure of the writers not understanding how basic spells in the old 2nd Edition D&D book work.
In D&D the availability of changing your sex organs is as simple as casting the spell Bestow Curse(lv4?) which has a "Permanent Duration" (Magical Item equivalent is Belt of Masculinity/Femininity) - If the character in question wants to actually be the other sex in appearance, either growing/removing adams apple and breasts, etc; Polymorph Other(Lv6?) a higher lv spell which also has the duration of "Permanent" would allow a complete sex change.
This game shouldn't be used to ship transgender characters since such a character at most would be transitory until the actual casting of the spell around lv5. When enough disposable gold becomes available to get a Red Wizard to cast it on the PC. (If they can't cast it on themselves for free!)
A Homosexual character would be different - as the character would still identify as their sex, and be attracted to the same gender so such a character would make sense in setting.
An interesting take is that if one is poly-morphed into an animal - ones viewpoint and intelligence will eventually become that of the animal form the target was poly-morphed into. (Like being cursed into the shape of a raven, eventually the human identity itself would be lost - displaced by the normal identity of the animal; in this case a raven.) This would have been an interesting topic to explore if a transgender character was made in such a way, The old Edwinna mod seemed to deal with the idea of a poly-morph changing gender identity.
Rage or what not, it doesn't matter. This character shouldn't exist in setting - being oppressed or otherwise. Gender can be changed with an incantation and a hand wave in 2nd Edition D&D.
If you can afford it that is. Hundreds to thousands of gold isn't easy. In Saradush you can Rez a commoners who says that he could never have afforded such a spell.
Played D&D 2nd edition - Transgender characters don't really exist (and make no sense in setting) in D&D 2nd edition. Sexual identity isn't an issue in the setting because it's as simple as paying a few hundred gold
Also, people with visual impairment shouldn't logically exist in the real world because you can just pay a few thousand dollars for laser eye surgery.
If the creators and directors of D&D take no issue with this, you've got no room - none - to say what should and shouldn't exist in Faerun. The people who own that world know more about it than you ever will, and they have spoken.
The idea that magic makes transgender people non-existent is silly, because being transgender is as much experience and history as anything else. Using magic to change one's body doesn't negate that experience and history.
Some of you think my post was ignorant, or maybe hateful. That isn’t the intention.
I’ll deal with the issue of a transgender based character; it’s only a low level problem.
If dealing with such a character in the Base Baldurs Gate game, a girdle of Masculinity /femininity actually drops in the game. Its cost is a whopping 200gp. While Full Plate costs 6000gp, so if the PC has access to full plate – access to a girdle or gender changing is even more assured. For this example, the character’s options are saving for a Polymorph other(lv4). Bestow curse may not grant the ability to procreate and is a negative effect that can be dispelled. Let’s assume 2000gp to about 7000gp cost.
PC’s are the cream of the crop in D&D. By that they typically have 16+ in primary attribute (gain 10% bonus xp), and have a character class. Accumulation of wealth is only a matter of time. By that a single encounter with drow at lv5 can drop multiple +1 swords. The cost of a scroll or other item in the PNP game was much higher than in the Baldurs Gate game. By the time a character has access to Girdles of Giant strength(20,000+gp) and +1 swords(typically 2000+gp in PNP), access to a 4th lv spell scroll is believable and likely.
IT’s just it doesn’t make sense this would be an issue for a PC with access to magical items or spells. Changing gender was easy in 2nd Edition. It’s cheap (for a character with a +1 weapon) and available early – I think it’d be free if the party has a 7th level wizard. Polymorph other was an awesome spell most casters took. Only Abjurer specialists don’t have that spell – specialists of the mage armor school was pretty rare if I recall. The only downside is system shock rolls if I recall. Casting polymorph with less than 14 Con was dangerous if I recall correctly. (Bestow curse and the gender swap girdle don’t have that problem).
As for Wotc support of Transgender, it’s a real thing and I'm aware of it. People are in fact transgender, it’s ridiculous a company would come out against what people identify as. Wotc and old TSR were rather friendly to most anyone who enjoyed the hobby. If they came out and said that Transgender or Lesbians or whatever don’t exist in D&D I’d call them idiots. Old AD&D was great when I played it; was fun - more young people should enjoy it whatever they might identify as.
A full gender swap or form change is possible in D&D, with all that entails. It’d literally change the dynamic vs Real life – the setting has more in common with the Miles Vorksigian Warrior Apprentice universe. By that a gender swaps are possible and easy when magic users are present making gender identity a non-issue. While backwaters might have some gender oppression, all the characters knowing about the ease of magical gender/form transition wouldn’t really care.
In an actual PNP campaign, a character’s gender could be swapped after a few sessions. (In the inital encounter in game the baal spawn could be like, hey killed this ogre a few weeks ago - Mizhena have this girdle) It’s so transitory it’s like, how someone thought that it’d make sense to base a character on gender angsts. Especially in an expansion that the characters are all lv7+(after core BG game) It's just it doesn't make sense. It's like the writer's just went for what's politically a hot topic on the internet to make buzz, rather than what made a compelling or interesting character.
The authors did nothing that would indicate they were going for what is politically a hot topic. They included a character who - if you press her - will reveal that she is transgender. Many people didn't even interpret what she said as meaning she was trans, thinking that something else was going on. This is fairly subtle compared to what people are saying was done - you'd think she accosts you as soon as possible and screams in your face that she is trans and you'd better get used to it. But that doesn't happen.
This isn't the work of someone trying to spark a controversy. This is the work of someone trying to write an NPC for a video game.
We don't even know how much of an issue it was for Mizhena. It sounds like not much of one from her dialogue. But that doesn't make her not transgender or make being transgender impossible because magic guys.
Realms are litteraly a world where some people can revive other person. And still death are a problem.
Beside that transidentity are about people placing themself on the binary view of the society. It's not necessary about their body.
And, even with perfect and fully accessible body-change magic, it dont change the fact people have made a change. In our world trans people dont stop being trans after having done a full medical treatment (wich are not really totally ended yes).
It still dont solve anything for non binary people or genderfluid people.
It still don't solve anything for people who doesn't want changing their body, but just want to change their gender.
It's funny that people think Mizhena can talk about the fact she's trans. Because she doesn't. She just share her name's story. Which, like most people point out, it's no big deal in the Realms. Cause of magic.
It's funny because by saying "she can't be trans because magic solve all trans problem" (which is false) and the fact she NEVER say "I am trans" and the fact we dont know anything about her body most people prove the oposite fact.
When people argue that magic means that transgender people don't exist because magical transformations etc. they're elucidating their ideal for transgender representation as "invisible." Transgender people's struggles are nonexistent so there's no point to them! As if transgender people are solely defined by their struggles.
Transgender character of any sort is a cop out. Modern views can't really apply to Faerun, due to magic.
Played D&D 2nd edition - Transgender characters don't really exist (and make no sense in setting) in D&D 2nd edition. Sexual identity isn't an issue in the setting because it's as simple as paying a few hundred gold and puff. You can literally change your gender moniker. This is a failure of the writers not understanding how basic spells in the old 2nd Edition D&D book work.
In D&D the availability of changing your sex organs is as simple as casting the spell Bestow Curse(lv4?) which has a "Permanent Duration" (Magical Item equivalent is Belt of Masculinity/Femininity) - If the character in question wants to actually be the other sex in appearance, either growing/removing adams apple and breasts, etc; Polymorph Other(Lv6?) a higher lv spell which also has the duration of "Permanent" would allow a complete sex change.
This game shouldn't be used to ship transgender characters since such a character at most would be transitory until the actual casting of the spell around lv5. When enough disposable gold becomes available to get a Red Wizard to cast it on the PC. (If they can't cast it on themselves for free!)
A Homosexual character would be different - as the character would still identify as their sex, and be attracted to the same gender so such a character would make sense in setting.
An interesting take is that if one is poly-morphed into an animal - ones viewpoint and intelligence will eventually become that of the animal form the target was poly-morphed into. (Like being cursed into the shape of a raven, eventually the human identity itself would be lost - displaced by the normal identity of the animal; in this case a raven.) This would have been an interesting topic to explore if a transgender character was made in such a way, The old Edwinna mod seemed to deal with the idea of a poly-morph changing gender identity.
Rage or what not, it doesn't matter. This character shouldn't exist in setting - being oppressed or otherwise. Gender can be changed with an incantation and a hand wave in 2nd Edition D&D.
What is weird dear @PietotheSky is that you state that her character isn't fitting because people can chage their gender by magic, but then seem to assume that she didn't already change her gender by magic, while the character gives no indication that she did or didn't
This whole concept of "transgender people don't really exist" completely ignores non-binary identities and countless other cultures which influence other regions of Toril. Also the fact that the average person can barely afford a potion of healing let alone one of permanent gender change. The Girdle is a joke item, and a rare one at that and it's value shouldn't be taken at face value(and it's STILL out of reach for most). In 4E anyway permanent transmutation is quite rare.
People seem to be getting a bit worked up on how someone switches gender. The Forgotten Realms is ahead of us here due to magic. Someone can switch gender if they find the right item or spell. That doesnt mean they aren't transgender because they've had to live as their birth gender until they were able to change it. Also many won't have access to those items (elusive) so reasonable to expect some will have had incomplete magic transformations. Regardless though of how someone achieves it they are still trans gender because it literally means to change gender, so magic, surgery, science, genetics doesn't matter if they want to/in process of or have completed the change. To say transgender doesn't exist just because they have girdles of magic is wrong.
I disagree with what OP seems to think is "the problem". The talk of poor writing - while interesting from several perspectives - within the context of the events that have followed release it is difficult for people not to embed their politics into these discussions. That politics entered into the discussion - yes, by and large due to Scott for her outspokenness on the issue - is what skyrocketed this trend. Not this trans character's arguably poor writing, or any other writing instance in the game that can be argued as poor writing. It would have still been regarded as such, but by a much less visible and much less roused audience.
BD made a mistake, and Oster acknowledged it (although arguably poorly) by saying Scott must have been having a long day. All of this stuff about rewriting the character, removing removing the GG line, I think was unnecessary at least in terms of addressing why this all really blew up in their face to begin with.
As to what should have been done? Would have, could have, should have. We'll see where it goes from here's my take.
I'll say though that I appreciate the moderators here have been very fair to letting discussion happen. I've seen places where anything that might lead to a spark into such discussion has been outright deleted purely because of their viewpoint rather than anything approaching hateful speech.
Comments
The comment i gave was meant: you critque a chef more and longer proportional to the distaste the food left in your mouth. Because Purudaya said
"
imho, bad style. not everyone around is native here, including me. Picking on english mistakes feels a bit like someone brought a wand to a sword fight. But maybe you could read his portugese texts and decide if he's a good writer, modder or not.
/e: ninja'd by @Purudaya :-)
I know Spanish pretty well, but not Portuguese.
I'm not used to this for the game I mod for or the projects I code for. There are heated discussions but no disrespecting the opposite to "win" the thread/opion/discussion or whatnot, which I see constantly here over here.
You and everyone else who kvetches about this line as "mansplaining" are reading your own biases into the line. It says more about *you* than any of the writers.
Played D&D 2nd edition - Transgender characters don't really exist (and make no sense in setting) in D&D 2nd edition. Sexual identity isn't an issue in the setting because it's as simple as paying a few hundred gold and puff. You can literally change your gender moniker. This is a failure of the writers not understanding how basic spells in the old 2nd Edition D&D book work.
In D&D the availability of changing your sex organs is as simple as casting the spell Bestow Curse(lv4?) which has a "Permanent Duration" (Magical Item equivalent is Belt of Masculinity/Femininity) - If the character in question wants to actually be the other sex in appearance, either growing/removing adams apple and breasts, etc; Polymorph Other(Lv6?) a higher lv spell which also has the duration of "Permanent" would allow a complete sex change.
This game shouldn't be used to ship transgender characters since such a character at most would be transitory until the actual casting of the spell around lv5. When enough disposable gold becomes available to get a Red Wizard to cast it on the PC. (If they can't cast it on themselves for free!)
A Homosexual character would be different - as the character would still identify as their sex, and be attracted to the same gender so such a character would make sense in setting.
An interesting take is that if one is poly-morphed into an animal - ones viewpoint and intelligence will eventually become that of the animal form the target was poly-morphed into. (Like being cursed into the shape of a raven, eventually the human identity itself would be lost - displaced by the normal identity of the animal; in this case a raven.) This would have been an interesting topic to explore if a transgender character was made in such a way, The old Edwinna mod seemed to deal with the idea of a poly-morph changing gender identity.
Rage or what not, it doesn't matter. This character shouldn't exist in setting - being oppressed or otherwise. Gender can be changed with an incantation and a hand wave in 2nd Edition D&D.
If the creators and directors of D&D take no issue with this, you've got no room - none - to say what should and shouldn't exist in Faerun. The people who own that world know more about it than you ever will, and they have spoken.
As for 1st screenshot, I see nothing wrong.
I’ll deal with the issue of a transgender based character; it’s only a low level problem.
For this example, the character’s options are saving for a Polymorph other(lv4). Bestow curse may not grant the ability to procreate and is a negative effect that can be dispelled. Let’s assume 2000gp to about 7000gp cost.
PC’s are the cream of the crop in D&D. By that they typically have 16+ in primary attribute (gain 10% bonus xp), and have a character class. Accumulation of wealth is only a matter of time. By that a single encounter with drow at lv5 can drop multiple +1 swords. The cost of a scroll or other item in the PNP game was much higher than in the Baldurs Gate game. By the time a character has access to Girdles of Giant strength(20,000+gp) and +1 swords(typically 2000+gp in PNP), access to a 4th lv spell scroll is believable and likely.
IT’s just it doesn’t make sense this would be an issue for a PC with access to magical items or spells. Changing gender was easy in 2nd Edition. It’s cheap (for a character with a +1 weapon) and available early – I think it’d be free if the party has a 7th level wizard. Polymorph other was an awesome spell most casters took. Only Abjurer specialists don’t have that spell – specialists of the mage armor school was pretty rare if I recall.
The only downside is system shock rolls if I recall. Casting polymorph with less than 14 Con was dangerous if I recall correctly. (Bestow curse and the gender swap girdle don’t have that problem).
As for Wotc support of Transgender, it’s a real thing and I'm aware of it. People are in fact transgender, it’s ridiculous a company would come out against what people identify as. Wotc and old TSR were rather friendly to most anyone who enjoyed the hobby. If they came out and said that Transgender or Lesbians or whatever don’t exist in D&D I’d call them idiots. Old AD&D was great when I played it; was fun - more young people should enjoy it whatever they might identify as.
A full gender swap or form change is possible in D&D, with all that entails. It’d literally change the dynamic vs Real life – the setting has more in common with the Miles Vorksigian Warrior Apprentice universe. By that a gender swaps are possible and easy when magic users are present making gender identity a non-issue. While backwaters might have some gender oppression, all the characters knowing about the ease of magical gender/form transition wouldn’t really care.
In an actual PNP campaign, a character’s gender could be swapped after a few sessions. (In the inital encounter in game the baal spawn could be like, hey killed this ogre a few weeks ago - Mizhena have this girdle) It’s so transitory it’s like, how someone thought that it’d make sense to base a character on gender angsts. Especially in an expansion that the characters are all lv7+(after core BG game) It's just it doesn't make sense. It's like the writer's just went for what's politically a hot topic on the internet to make buzz, rather than what made a compelling or interesting character.
This isn't the work of someone trying to spark a controversy. This is the work of someone trying to write an NPC for a video game.
"if you press her" = Mizehna...what a weird name. (Concidering the rest of the Names thats also a lie)
Beside that transidentity are about people placing themself on the binary view of the society. It's not necessary about their body.
And, even with perfect and fully accessible body-change magic, it dont change the fact people have made a change. In our world trans people dont stop being trans after having done a full medical treatment (wich are not really totally ended yes).
It still dont solve anything for non binary people or genderfluid people.
It still don't solve anything for people who doesn't want changing their body, but just want to change their gender.
It's funny that people think Mizhena can talk about the fact she's trans. Because she doesn't. She just share her name's story. Which, like most people point out, it's no big deal in the Realms. Cause of magic.
It's funny because by saying "she can't be trans because magic solve all trans problem" (which is false) and the fact she NEVER say "I am trans" and the fact we dont know anything about her body most people prove the oposite fact.
BD made a mistake, and Oster acknowledged it (although arguably poorly) by saying Scott must have been having a long day. All of this stuff about rewriting the character, removing removing the GG line, I think was unnecessary at least in terms of addressing why this all really blew up in their face to begin with.
As to what should have been done? Would have, could have, should have. We'll see where it goes from here's my take.
I'll say though that I appreciate the moderators here have been very fair to letting discussion happen. I've seen places where anything that might lead to a spark into such discussion has been outright deleted purely because of their viewpoint rather than anything approaching hateful speech.