There not body change part in this story, that never mention, there also not "hello i'm trans" there just the Mizhena name's story.
Well said.
If one carried the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity from BGEE into SOD, would there be an option to give the girdle to Mizhena?
You could give it to her but nothing would happen and no chat or anything, that is what the controversy is about. It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe.
That of course remains untrue, as the fact of the matter is that the character does not state at all to what extent she is transitioned and uses the female character model, so for all you know she is already using such a device. And that is apart from the creator of the setting and WotC coming out with statements that it is fitting for the setting.
The conclusion therefor dear @Mephiston87 is not that the character makes no sense in the universe, the conclusion is that you are deliberately looking for ways to state that she would not make sense.
Even many transsexuals have posted and dislike how it has been done. It has been "shoehorned" in and I have no idea what that even means. I think it means it's silly and lazy, iv no idea. But when transsexual people themselves come and complain on forums u know it's bad.
OK so why does no one kick up a fuss when most games do it? Perhaps because it's tastefully done? Elders rolls series, dragon age series and many others have tackled the same thing and come out with no problems.
Your choices: "Why pass as a man?" "Are you a woman?" "When did you know?" "And the rest of your crew?"
No option to be a dick, no option to say "I don't give a fuck about your gender issues" or anything like that.
sounds familiar? However with a much larger player base the unreasonable angry people simply are outnumbered more in dragon age by the generally far more moderate fanbase than they are in comparison with a smaller developer and current base of Baldurs gate.
If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?
Why yes they are indeed wrong and that they are many is not really an argument now is it. Are muslims automatically right by virtue of there being a billion of them?
If As u said she has already transitioned why bother mentioning she is transsexual at all? That is completely pointless, if they want to be another sex and they become that other sex wouldn't they call themselves the sex they currently are and want to be?
I think you are a bit confused, the character talks about how she chose her name. And explains that she and those around her became to understand that she was truly a woman, the implication being that she found her former name no longer fitting and her surroundings accepting her as a woman. Hence it is not pointless to mention it as it was her motivation to change her name, which you as a player are specifically asking about.
This in itself however says nothing about her phase of transitioning or her other motivations. You cannot reasonably deduct from this that she didn't use magical means to turn herself into a woman, nor that she did, nor what her views are on such a magical application (as the existance of a magical option does not mean people also trust that magical option).
And that is why your points do not make sense, unless you are deliberately seeking to state that she does not fit in the setting.
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them. But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
I find that you call any reference to someone being gay or trans "sjw agenda" or just "sjw" and then also say things like "UGH, SJW!" in other posts.
It's like you detest what a Social Justice Warrior is but also lump gay people into that category... by referring to them as "sjw." You're not a "sjw" just because you're gay and referring to something or someone as being gay is not interchangeable with "sjw."
There not body change part in this story, that never mention, there also not "hello i'm trans" there just the Mizhena name's story.
Well said.
If one carried the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity from BGEE into SOD, would there be an option to give the girdle to Mizhena?
You could give it to her but nothing would happen and no chat or anything, that is what the controversy is about. It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe.
That of course remains untrue, as the fact of the matter is that the character does not state at all to what extent she is transitioned and uses the female character model, so for all you know she is already using such a device. And that is apart from the creator of the setting and WotC coming out with statements that it is fitting for the setting.
The conclusion therefor dear @Mephiston87 is not that the character makes no sense in the universe, the conclusion is that you are deliberately looking for ways to state that she would not make sense.
Even many transsexuals have posted and dislike how it has been done. It has been "shoehorned" in and I have no idea what that even means. I think it means it's silly and lazy, iv no idea. But when transsexual people themselves come and complain on forums u know it's bad.
OK so why does no one kick up a fuss when most games do it? Perhaps because it's tastefully done? Elders rolls series, dragon age series and many others have tackled the same thing and come out with no problems.
Your choices: "Why pass as a man?" "Are you a woman?" "When did you know?" "And the rest of your crew?"
No option to be a dick, no option to say "I don't give a fuck about your gender issues" or anything like that.
sounds familiar? However with a much larger player base the unreasonable angry people simply are outnumbered more in dragon age by the generally far more moderate fanbase than they are in comparison with a smaller developer and current base of Baldurs gate.
If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?
Why yes they are indeed wrong and that they are many is not really an argument now is it. Are muslims automatically right by virtue of there being a billion of them?
If As u said she has already transitioned why bother mentioning she is transsexual at all? That is completely pointless, if they want to be another sex and they become that other sex wouldn't they call themselves the sex they currently are and want to be?
I think you are a bit confused, the character talks about how she chose her name. And explains that she and those around her became to understand that she was truly a woman, the implication being that she found her former name no longer fitting and her surroundings accepting her as a woman. Hence it is not pointless to mention it as it was her motivation to change her name, which you as a player are specifically asking about.
This in itself however says nothing about her phase of transitioning or her other motivations. You cannot reasonably deduct from this that she didn't use magical means to turn herself into a woman, nor that she did, nor what her views are on such a magical application (as the existance of a magical option does not mean people also trust that magical option).
And that is why your points do not make sense, unless you are deliberately seeking to state that she does not fit in the setting.
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them. But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
I find that you call any reference to someone being gay or trans "sjw agenda" or just "sjw" and then also say things like "UGH, SJW!" in other posts.
It's like you detest what a Social Justice Warrior is but also lump gay people into that category... by referring to them as "sjw." You're not a "sjw" just because you're gay and referring to something or someone as being gay is not interchangeable with "sjw."
i do detest sjw people or anyone trying to sow political agendas into video games, BUT like most ill be fine with it if its discretely and tastefully done. i don't really follow the rest of what u said tho lol.
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them.
You were of course not at all just appealing to exactly such a sentiment when you stated: "If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?"
But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
Oh noes! There are also gay people in the game! Damn that agenda of accepting people just being there. The weird thing dear is that the transcharacter does have a reason to be there. She is the cleric, you can get healing, cures of disease, ressurections, etc. Did she had to be transgender? No, but that is ultimately a weird question. Becasue alternatively the character also did not have to be straight male or cis female either.
The crux of the matter is that some people simply do not seem to tolerate a transcharacter simply being there without the universe making a big deal out of it.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
It is rather amusing how you are now twisting and turning, your argument was after all that: "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." that they are now going to expand the character is quite opposite of them agreeing with you that she makes no sense in the universe.
You see when you make the case that a transcharacter does not make sense in the universe and you go out of your way to ignore that the universe itself has no problem with the character and even ignore why your own reasoning for her supposedly not making sense is wrong... Well then it becomes a bit unclear if your only complaint that it is 'poorly done' is genuine to begin with.
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them.
You were of course not at all just appealing to exactly such a sentiment when you stated: "If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?"
But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
Oh noes! There are also gay people in the game! Damn that agenda of accepting people just being there. The weird thing dear is that the transcharacter does have a reason to be there. She is the cleric, you can get healing, cures of disease, ressurections, etc. Did she had to be transgender? No, but that is ultimately a weird question. Becasue alternatively the character also did not have to be straight male or cis female either.
The crux of the matter is that some people simply do not seem to tolerate a transcharacter simply being there without the universe making a big deal out of it.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
It is rather amusing how you are now twisting and turning, your argument was after all that: "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." that they are now going to expand the character is quite opposite of them agreeing with you that she makes no sense in the universe.
You see when you make the case that a transcharacter does not make sense in the universe and you go out of your way to ignore that the universe itself has no problem with the character and even ignore why your own reasoning for her supposedly not making sense is wrong... Well then it becomes a bit unclear if your only complaint that it is 'poorly done' is genuine to begin with.
of course you can have a transexual in the universe, i never once said they cant, i like how your cutting tiny portions of what iv said and posting it out of context. They can wear belts/magic to make them the sex they desire, so they no longer are transsexual. there are pages and pages of everyone thinking of ideas of how to make the person non transsexual. the argument is she is poorly done, there are dozens(or more) of clerics in the game but only one transsexual making her a token transsexual because there is nothing else to the character.
transsexual walks into a store/mages tower/temple says "i want to change sex" mage/cleric casts spell, store keep gives belt and BAM no more transsexual. but transexuals arent born with spells or a belt on them, so there certainly can be transexuals in the forgotten realms.
dude your not putting forward your opinions or views at all? just making yourself look silly by nit picking. put forward a view instead of poorly "attempting" to cut/paste dialog out of context.
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them.
You were of course not at all just appealing to exactly such a sentiment when you stated: "If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?"
But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
Oh noes! There are also gay people in the game! Damn that agenda of accepting people just being there. The weird thing dear is that the transcharacter does have a reason to be there. She is the cleric, you can get healing, cures of disease, ressurections, etc. Did she had to be transgender? No, but that is ultimately a weird question. Becasue alternatively the character also did not have to be straight male or cis female either.
The crux of the matter is that some people simply do not seem to tolerate a transcharacter simply being there without the universe making a big deal out of it.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
It is rather amusing how you are now twisting and turning, your argument was after all that: "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." that they are now going to expand the character is quite opposite of them agreeing with you that she makes no sense in the universe.
You see when you make the case that a transcharacter does not make sense in the universe and you go out of your way to ignore that the universe itself has no problem with the character and even ignore why your own reasoning for her supposedly not making sense is wrong... Well then it becomes a bit unclear if your only complaint that it is 'poorly done' is genuine to begin with.
of course you can have a transexual in the universe, i never once said they cant, i like how your cutting tiny portions of what iv said and posting it out of context.
Really? well what did I then take out of context? Because simply cutting a text into pieces and responding seperately to different parts is in itself not really taking anything out of context. When I quote you saying that "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." what critical context would I be missing?
They can wear belts/magic to make them the sex they desire, so they no longer are transsexual. there are pages and pages of everyone thinking of ideas of how to make the person non transsexual.
That would still not change anything about the character Mizehna, you do realize that even with magic she would probably still first be raised as a boy and only later be accepted as a woman? That after all is why your argument is and remains fundamentally flawed. You state her character makes no sense because she can use magic to change herself, while the writing does not indicate at all that she did not do so in the first place. The writing does not state what she is now apart from accepted as truly a woman. And it is impossible either way to make her a 'transsexual no longer' as the fact remains that she was raised as a boy.
That it is also debatable to what extent such magic is actually available and if people would indeed trust magic enough to actually do so, only piles up onto that.
the argument is she is poorly done, there are dozens(or more) of clerics in the game but only one transsexual making her a token transsexual because there is nothing else to the character.
So now she is 'poorly done' because there is only one... The difficulty with that argument is that even if you would have 2, the argument would become: 'they are poorly done because there are just 2 to prevent there from being one as that would be called tokenism'
There is also more to the character, as you admit she is a cleric and functions as such to your party by providing her services, she can talk a bit about tempus... Really your argument boils down to simply a character cannot be trans if there are no other transcharacters and a transcharacter cannot simply exist.
transsexual walks into a store/mages tower/temple says "i want to change sex" mage/cleric casts spell, store keep gives belt and BAM no more transsexual. but transexuals arent born with spells or a belt on them, so there certainly can be transexuals in the forgotten realms.
dude your not putting forward your opinions or views at all? just making yourself look silly by nit picking. put forward a view instead of poorly "attempting" to cut/paste dialog out of context.
I think I have put forward lots of my views while at the same time demonstrating why you are wrong ;-)
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them.
You were of course not at all just appealing to exactly such a sentiment when you stated: "If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?"
But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
Oh noes! There are also gay people in the game! Damn that agenda of accepting people just being there. The weird thing dear is that the transcharacter does have a reason to be there. She is the cleric, you can get healing, cures of disease, ressurections, etc. Did she had to be transgender? No, but that is ultimately a weird question. Becasue alternatively the character also did not have to be straight male or cis female either.
The crux of the matter is that some people simply do not seem to tolerate a transcharacter simply being there without the universe making a big deal out of it.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
It is rather amusing how you are now twisting and turning, your argument was after all that: "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." that they are now going to expand the character is quite opposite of them agreeing with you that she makes no sense in the universe.
You see when you make the case that a transcharacter does not make sense in the universe and you go out of your way to ignore that the universe itself has no problem with the character and even ignore why your own reasoning for her supposedly not making sense is wrong... Well then it becomes a bit unclear if your only complaint that it is 'poorly done' is genuine to begin with.
of course you can have a transexual in the universe, i never once said they cant, i like how your cutting tiny portions of what iv said and posting it out of context.
Really? well what did I then take out of context? Because simply cutting a text into pieces and responding seperately to different parts is in itself not really taking anything out of context. When I quote you saying that "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." what critical context would I be missing?
They can wear belts/magic to make them the sex they desire, so they no longer are transsexual. there are pages and pages of everyone thinking of ideas of how to make the person non transsexual.
That would still not change anything about the character Mizehna, you do realize that even with magic she would probably still first be raised as a boy and only later be accepted as a woman? That after all is why your argument is and remains fundamentally flawed. You state her character makes no sense because she can use magic to change herself, while the writing does not indicate at all that she did not do so in the first place. The writing does not state what she is now apart from accepted as truly a woman. And it is impossible either way to make her a 'transsexual no longer' as the fact remains that she was raised as a boy.
That it is also debatable to what extent such magic is actually available and if people would indeed trust magic enough to actually do so, only piles up onto that.
the argument is she is poorly done, there are dozens(or more) of clerics in the game but only one transsexual making her a token transsexual because there is nothing else to the character.
So now she is 'poorly done' because there is only one... The difficulty with that argument is that even if you would have 2, the argument would become: 'they are poorly done because there are just 2 to prevent there from being one as that would be called tokenism'
There is also more to the character, as you admit she is a cleric and functions as such to your party by providing her services, she can talk a bit about tempus... Really your argument boils down to simply a character cannot be trans if there are no other transcharacters and a transcharacter cannot simply exist.
transsexual walks into a store/mages tower/temple says "i want to change sex" mage/cleric casts spell, store keep gives belt and BAM no more transsexual. but transexuals arent born with spells or a belt on them, so there certainly can be transexuals in the forgotten realms.
dude your not putting forward your opinions or views at all? just making yourself look silly by nit picking. put forward a view instead of poorly "attempting" to cut/paste dialog out of context.
I think I have put forward lots of my views while at the same time demonstrating why you are wrong ;-)
wow, how old are you? i could do exactly the same thing you are doing back to yourself. it would be a waste of time on something that your wrong about and beamdog has apologised for and is changing. Talk about a sore loser. you know i have had alot of good conversations and many many good view points across this thread, from both sides. And then i just realised its school holidays. I would teach you how to put forwards proper view points but honestly your a lost cause.
yet again you have put across zero arguments. just nit picked. The last desperate act.
oh wow, i never said the people causing the fuss were right because there are more of them.
You were of course not at all just appealing to exactly such a sentiment when you stated: "If as you say everything is fine, why are so many people causing such a fuss? Your right they are all wrong?"
But in the end they are right and you are wrong, the devs have apologised and its being sorted properly and tastefully i hope. Ever played elder scrolls online? one of my favourite quests is about 2 gay guys and one has been bitten by a warewolf. one of my favourite quests, and i know many other people who think its one of their favourites too. do i care about the slight sjw in that quest? does everyone enjoy the sjw in it? yup you know why? because its appropriate and tastefully done.
this transexual chick/dude is only one piece of the ajenda many people have noticed. minsc saying ethics, females being overhauled, gay people. its a mess of sjw poorly done and breaking immersion, like everything in the game make those gay/transexual people interesting, dont make them the token gay/transexual people with no real reason to be there.
Oh noes! There are also gay people in the game! Damn that agenda of accepting people just being there. The weird thing dear is that the transcharacter does have a reason to be there. She is the cleric, you can get healing, cures of disease, ressurections, etc. Did she had to be transgender? No, but that is ultimately a weird question. Becasue alternatively the character also did not have to be straight male or cis female either.
The crux of the matter is that some people simply do not seem to tolerate a transcharacter simply being there without the universe making a big deal out of it.
That is what it is all about, your arguing about one tiny piece that they have already admitted was poorly done.
It is rather amusing how you are now twisting and turning, your argument was after all that: "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." that they are now going to expand the character is quite opposite of them agreeing with you that she makes no sense in the universe.
You see when you make the case that a transcharacter does not make sense in the universe and you go out of your way to ignore that the universe itself has no problem with the character and even ignore why your own reasoning for her supposedly not making sense is wrong... Well then it becomes a bit unclear if your only complaint that it is 'poorly done' is genuine to begin with.
of course you can have a transexual in the universe, i never once said they cant, i like how your cutting tiny portions of what iv said and posting it out of context.
Really? well what did I then take out of context? Because simply cutting a text into pieces and responding seperately to different parts is in itself not really taking anything out of context. When I quote you saying that "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." what critical context would I be missing?
They can wear belts/magic to make them the sex they desire, so they no longer are transsexual. there are pages and pages of everyone thinking of ideas of how to make the person non transsexual.
That would still not change anything about the character Mizehna, you do realize that even with magic she would probably still first be raised as a boy and only later be accepted as a woman? That after all is why your argument is and remains fundamentally flawed. You state her character makes no sense because she can use magic to change herself, while the writing does not indicate at all that she did not do so in the first place. The writing does not state what she is now apart from accepted as truly a woman. And it is impossible either way to make her a 'transsexual no longer' as the fact remains that she was raised as a boy.
That it is also debatable to what extent such magic is actually available and if people would indeed trust magic enough to actually do so, only piles up onto that.
the argument is she is poorly done, there are dozens(or more) of clerics in the game but only one transsexual making her a token transsexual because there is nothing else to the character.
So now she is 'poorly done' because there is only one... The difficulty with that argument is that even if you would have 2, the argument would become: 'they are poorly done because there are just 2 to prevent there from being one as that would be called tokenism'
There is also more to the character, as you admit she is a cleric and functions as such to your party by providing her services, she can talk a bit about tempus... Really your argument boils down to simply a character cannot be trans if there are no other transcharacters and a transcharacter cannot simply exist.
transsexual walks into a store/mages tower/temple says "i want to change sex" mage/cleric casts spell, store keep gives belt and BAM no more transsexual. but transexuals arent born with spells or a belt on them, so there certainly can be transexuals in the forgotten realms.
dude your not putting forward your opinions or views at all? just making yourself look silly by nit picking. put forward a view instead of poorly "attempting" to cut/paste dialog out of context.
I think I have put forward lots of my views while at the same time demonstrating why you are wrong ;-)
wow, how old are you? i could do exactly the same thing you are doing back to yourself.
You mean going into an argument? I am not sure why you think I would have something against you doing that... I have simply stated why your view of the situation is wrong, you are always free to actually respond to that.
it would be a waste of time on something that your wrong about and beamdog has apologised for and is changing. Talk about a sore loser.
As I already stated, Beamdog expanding a character is contrary to her 'not making sense in the universe' as you postulated here on this forum before. If she wouldn't have made sense, then expanding her would not fix anything.
you know i have had alot of good conversations and many many good view points across this thread, from both sides. And then i just realised its school holidays.
That would be a funny burn if it wasn't undercut by today being a sunday...
I would teach you how to put forwards proper view points but honestly your a lost cause.
yet again you have put across zero arguments. just nit picked. The last desperate act.
Really? For example my argument of your misinterpretation of Mizhena's character not making sense in the setting seems pretty solid, could you tell me what is wrong with my assertation that the writing does not go into what Mizhena her status is other than "truly accepted as a woman" which in no way excludes the interpretation that she did something magical to change her sexuality, but that at the same time the availability and reliability of such magic can be questioned and that therefore your assertion of Mizhena not making sense in the setting is wrong either way?
Jaheira is the strongest good female in bg1, and the writer says she is portrayed as a "nagging wife" ? Characters randomly walking up to you for the purpose of telling you they are transsexual, a child worried about her mum going away to war then randomly saying her mum doesn't need a male(hero of baldure's gate) to protect her... Then why worry?
Actually, Rohma's line is "Mama doesn't need you. She can take care of herself." This is said in response to a dialog choice by the player of "Have no fear, Rohma. I'll make sure nothing happens to your mother." It is said to a CHARNAME of either gender. There's nothing in Rohma's line about how her mother doesn't need a *man* to take care of her. She's just saying that her mom is tough as nails and she doesn't need "The Hero of Baldur's Gate" (male or female) to protect her.
You and everyone else who kvetches about this line as "mansplaining" are reading your own biases into the line. It says more about *you* than any of the writers.
So you think a child that is surrounded by war, death and dead bodies is perfectly fine with her mother going off to die? I'm a soldier and I'm yet to see a single case where any child thinks their father/mother will "kickass" in warfare, and these children are not surrounded by war and death these days. Yet you think a child in that area and that time would be perfectly fine with her mother going off? Sorry to say it but all they do is cry and cling to your leg.
@Mephiston87 - That's a completely different issue than whether the line is "random" or about how "her mum doesn't need a male to protect her", which was your initial assertion. Changing your issue with the line from it being "mansplaining" to the appropriateness of the child's reaction to their parent (mother or father) going off to war is an ignoratio elenchi argument (non-sequitur) fallacy (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignoratio.html)
Back to your initial assertion - how is the line random and about how Corwin doesn't need a male to protect her?
As someone who agrees with you, we don't really need more threads like this. There are tons of other shortcomings in SoD and how the dev team reacted to criticism that deserve more attention, "too bad" comes to mind. The ban wave of several long term users(in some cases very active and helpful users) on this site is also quite worrying. Getting the Phil Fish feel from beamdog at the moment. And as someone who has been at their back in the past, watched their streams and all around loved how they seemed to be dedicated fans that wanted to bring BG back from the grave it has absolutely changed my view of them as a company. The whole "cozy small dev" feel is gone and what is left is the sour taste of a bunch of ham-fisted amateurs with an agenda. Truly heartbreaking, had hoped for a better outcome. And for those that for a long time criticized their writing I tip my hat for you. I let my nostalgia glasses cloud my judgement and you were right and I'm sorry for acting like a fanboy but in my defence seeing and playing BG again was a dream come true. Now I will go back and beg steam for a refund(maybe it's too late), cry, cry a bit more and then play something else or maybe try out this new pizza recipe I thought of.
The soundtrack is still amazing though so you deserve cred for that.
Jaheira is the strongest good female in bg1, and the writer says she is portrayed as a "nagging wife" ? Characters randomly walking up to you for the purpose of telling you they are transsexual, a child worried about her mum going away to war then randomly saying her mum doesn't need a male(hero of baldure's gate) to protect her... Then why worry?
Actually, Rohma's line is "Mama doesn't need you. She can take care of herself." This is said in response to a dialog choice by the player of "Have no fear, Rohma. I'll make sure nothing happens to your mother." It is said to a CHARNAME of either gender. There's nothing in Rohma's line about how her mother doesn't need a *man* to take care of her. She's just saying that her mom is tough as nails and she doesn't need "The Hero of Baldur's Gate" (male or female) to protect her.
You and everyone else who kvetches about this line as "mansplaining" are reading your own biases into the line. It says more about *you* than any of the writers.
So you think a child that is surrounded by war, death and dead bodies is perfectly fine with her mother going off to die? I'm a soldier and I'm yet to see a single case where any child thinks their father/mother will "kickass" in warfare, and these children are not surrounded by war and death these days. Yet you think a child in that area and that time would be perfectly fine with her mother going off? Sorry to say it but all they do is cry and cling to your leg.
@Mephiston87 - That's a completely different issue than whether the line is "random" or about how "her mum doesn't need a male to protect her", which was your initial assertion. Changing your issue with the line from it being "mansplaining" to the appropriateness of the child's reaction to their parent (mother or father) going off to war is an ignoratio elenchi argument (non-sequitur) fallacy (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignoratio.html)
Back to your initial assertion - how is the line random and about how Corwin doesn't need a male to protect her?
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that dialogue the same regardless of charname gender? "Mama doesn't need you. She can take care of herself." So why are you pushing gender politics into this? The kid never said that Corwin doesn't need a male to protect her.
It's almost like you are grasping at straws there 'soldier.' Is your command sending you to school as well? If I were you I'd ask them for help with your reading comprehension.
u all r missin da point. In 1998 and so on there were not many- other than the Corrla Lothander Elf guy/gal )I just found dat out whoa d00d- transgender parsons about cuz it was a manly man game of white educated middle class guys. now u got kidz everywhere- even homeless kidz in libraries - playin vid games. So yeah Baldurs gate catered to the audience - if dere was all this gay romance and transgender (i am using the Corean term as I like Corea so much) all the audence - fat white suburban guys would go boonzo bongo.
So I guess I must take this gilz powerz soiclist stuff and just kill any socailist in the game and of course reject the wymyn single mum (30 years ago wymyn stayed in beat down marriages for the kidz and the shame of being a single mum ( now they leave a man if he aint on par with his hamster play)
times change but Beamdawg made the guess that the "Call me a Wench and Die!" WYMYN POWER! I AM SHEERAH !!!!! AAEEEEE AEEEE LA la LA LA La XENA Warrior Wymyn!" would be ok with the curreent post Christ audience - after all they changed the marraige law in the USA why not join the progressive agenda and make Baldusr Gate the Siege of Dragonballz "You Man Warriors aint putting us down again! Corbraaa la la la la la la la!
They could have kept the Wymyn Killa Lady and still had appeal to fat older white conservative guys if they would have just hired this Japanese Ko KO lady to voice a Flaming Fist Enforcer Girl she could have used a Flail and said really sweet and then seconds later really angry and sullen voice chats... Beamdawg reely missed out on their judgements with that cheesey angry archer Corwin:
My dream Girl Character Ko Ko (should use her voice for next joinable character):
u all r missin da point. In 1998 and so on there were not many- other than the Corrla Lothander Elf guy/gal )I just found dat out whoa d00d- transgender parsons about cuz it was a manly man game of white educated middle class guys. now u got kidz everywhere- even homeless kidz in libraries - playin vid games. So yeah Baldurs gate catered to the audience - if dere was all this gay romance and transgender (i am using the Corean term as I like Corea so much) all the audence - fat white suburban guys would go boonzo bongo.
So I guess I must take this gilz powerz soiclist stuff and just kill any socailist in the game and of course reject the wymyn single mum (30 years ago wymyn stayed in beat down marriages for the kidz and the shame of being a single mum ( now they leave a man if he aint on par with his hamster play)
times change but Beamdawg made the guess that the "Call me a Wench and Die!" WYMYN POWER! I AM SHEERAH !!!!! AAEEEEE AEEEE LA la LA LA La XENA Warrior Wymyn!" would be ok with the curreent post Christ audience - after all they changed the marraige law in the USA why not join the progressive agenda and make Baldusr Gate the Siege of Dragonballz "You Man Warriors aint putting us down again! Corbraaa la la la la la la la!
They could have kept the Wymyn Killa Lady and still had appeal to fat older white conservative guys if they would have just hired this Japanese Ko KO lady to voice a Flaming Fist Enforcer Girl she could have used a Flail and said really sweet and then seconds later really angry and sullen voice chats... Beamdawg reely missed out on their judgements with that cheesey angry archer Corwin:
My dream Girl Character Ko Ko (should use her voice for next joinable character):
The problem isn't "diversity" or "SJW", its that the story was weak, just weak. It was pretty lame overall compared to any of its contemporaries. The writing was sub par. The characters couldn't make me care about them at all. I could only view most as hit point meat shields.
The problem isn't "diversity" or "SJW", its that the story was weak, just weak. It was pretty lame overall compared to any of its contemporaries. The writing was sub par. The characters couldn't make me care about them at all. I could only view most as hit point meat shields.
Are you talking about vanilla bg1 characters who have no banter? The ones who rarely, if ever, say anything outside of the first time you meet them?
Branwen says nothing when you meet Tranzig, the man who petrified her and whom she swore vengeance against.
Yeslick says nothing when you meet Rielter, his "friend" who betrayed him, tortured him, and took over his clan hold/tomb.
Kivan says nothing when you meet the killer of his wife whom he was sworn to kill.
Off the top of my head the only characters who have any dialogue after their initial meetings are Coran, Shar-Teel and the bard love triangle (barring alignment fights)
Besides for that they are all just walking interchangeable hit points with different things to say when you click on them.
Are you talking about BG1 then? Or was SoD worse than that?
The problem isn't "diversity" or "SJW", its that the story was weak, just weak. It was pretty lame overall compared to any of its contemporaries. The writing was sub par. The characters couldn't make me care about them at all. I could only view most as hit point meat shields.
So much gear shifting going on around here lately.
Yes. Generalized "bad writing" is why there was mass review bombing on the three major user review sites. Had nothing to do with diversity or SJW after all.
The problem isn't "diversity" or "SJW", its that the story was weak, just weak. It was pretty lame overall compared to any of its contemporaries. The writing was sub par. The characters couldn't make me care about them at all. I could only view most as hit point meat shields.
So much gear shifting going on around here lately.
Yes. Generalized "bad writing" is why there was mass review bombing on the three major user review sites. Had nothing to do with diversity or "SJW" after all.
What the most interesting aspect of the character will vary depending on personal taste, I would imagine. For me the most interesting aspect is that she is a female cleric of Tempus, much like Branwen who was a favorite NPC of mine in BG1.
I'm not sure that "everyone else has lied" when they say her being trans is the "most interesting attribute" she has. In fact, I don't think I've heard any of the nay sayers or people complaining about her saying it's overly "interesting." But saying that the character walks up to you and unavoidably FORCES you to hear about their sexual identity isn't true... as I outlined above.
I never said forces you into anything, the npc's has one purpose. You can skip the purpose but there still is one major purpose it's there, to push an agenda. That's is all, but combine that with the rest of what I said and you have a clear agenda. I proof read that before I posted it and rechecked everything.
Actually, she is the camp healer. Her purpose is to provide clerical magic and accepts donations to raise your reputation just like every other temple/church in the saga... that's literally her major purpose in the game.
There are are dozens of them in the game, that is not interesting. Anything that causes outrage, or promotes the player to stop playing get a refund and jump on forums is interesting. Something that you will remember forever is interesting like all the endings of each game etc.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Edit: Wait, are you trying to imply she is putting the party in jeopardy because she mentions personal information only after THE PLAYER pushes her to do so TWICE? That seems more like your fault for asking, soldier.
Why would your character somehow think her name is strange and not all the other people with strange names you meet during the game, unless it is forcing your character to push in order to have the transgender information revealed?
The problem is that good writing results in a game in which you are unsure of which way the author leans, politically. Case in point - does anyone know, from playing Baldurs Gate I or II, whether the authors leaned towards the left or right of the political spectrum? Anyone? Exactly.
Another one - Deus Ex. From playing that game, which direction does the author(s) lean towards? Big government or anarchism? Given that you can choose either path, and neither path is really right or really wrong, we truly cannot tell which way those author(s) lean.
Compare that to SoD. I have never even played the game, and I already know which way the author(s) leans. That is wrong. I don't want politics in my games, thank you very much. If you must introduce politics, introduce enough ambiguity so that any viewpoints are the viewpoints of the characters and NOT transparently the viewpoints of the author(s).
Meant to click on Quote and I clicked on Agree instead. In any case, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. The mere fact that people are up in arms about it - on both sides of the political spectrum - means I am right. Don't put politics into games, no matter what your political viewpoint is.
Meant to click on Quote and I clicked on Agree instead. In any case, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. The mere fact that people are up in arms about it - on both sides of the political spectrum - means I am right. Don't put politics into games, no matter what your political viewpoint is.
You can click Agree again to un-agree with me. And no, that alone doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong, just that your opinion of the game holds zero weight.
The problem is that good writing results in a game in which you are unsure of which way the author leans, politically. Case in point - does anyone know, from playing Baldurs Gate I or II, whether the authors leaned towards the left or right of the political spectrum? Anyone? Exactly.
Definitely left leaning, since female characters are allowed to be of non-evil alignment.
Also, the hard-working country folk were made out to be nothing but yokels, scratching their rears and saying things like, "The sheep haven't been puttin' out lately."
Finally, If you input "Bill Clinton" as your Charname, every attribute will be changed to 25 when the game starts. No joke. Try it.
Finally, If you input "Bill Clinton" as your Charname, every attribute will be changed to 25 when the game starts. No joke. Try it.
Why would a Canadian company care about American politicians? Besides which, Bill Clinton would be left-wing in America and right-wing in Canada.
The game was clearly intended for U.S. consumers, if not outright set in a mythical version of the United States (much like Middle-Earth was supposed to actually be Earth). Players can purchase as many weapons as they can afford, even WMDs such as a Wand of Fireballs. Healing and other priest services are super expensive, and you'll even be denied life-saving care if you have insufficient funds. The education to be had at the Candlekeep library is reserved for a privileged few. The most damning evidence is that the government of Baldur's Gate is secretly run by shape-shifting Doppelgangers, just like Washington, D.C. is secretly run by shape-shifting lizard people (See John Carpenter's "They Live" for a more thorough explanation).
Finally, If you input "Bill Clinton" as your Charname, every attribute will be changed to 25 when the game starts. No joke. Try it.
Why would a Canadian company care about American politicians? Besides which, Bill Clinton would be left-wing in America and right-wing in Canada.
The game was clearly intended for U.S. consumers, if not outright set in a mythical version of the United States (much like Middle-Earth was supposed to actually be Earth). Players can purchase as many weapons as they can afford, even WMDs such as a Wand of Fireballs. Healing and other priest services are super expensive, and you'll even be denied life-saving care if you have insufficient funds. The education to be had at the Candlekeep library is reserved for a privileged few. The most damning evidence is that the government of Baldur's Gate is secretly run by shape-shifting Doppelgangers, just like Washington, D.C. is secretly run by shape-shifting lizard people (See John Carpenter's "They Live" for a more thorough explanation).
That's just what they want you to think. The government is actually controlled by mind-controlling aliens who use the shape-shifting lizard people to be their public face.
Just like how the Illithids used the dopplegangers to take over Durlag's Tower!
And just look at the social commentary shoved down our throats there, where the lone survivor with his own personal arms was able to drive out the corrupt illithids and dopplegangers (who were after his wealth by the way, taxes anyone?). But he was driven mad by the encounter, becoming a hermit and dangerous recluse.
They just can't stop pushing this liberal bull down our throats! That even when they have the STRONG MAN with his personal arms trying to defend his family and the money he earned, he has a bad end for daring to stand up to the government. I for one and SICK AND TIRED of this constantly being forced down our throats.
It's all so obvious. What we need is this kind of real world references taken out of our games, and we need it done now.
Comments
It's like you detest what a Social Justice Warrior is but also lump gay people into that category... by referring to them as "sjw." You're not a "sjw" just because you're gay and referring to something or someone as being gay is not interchangeable with "sjw."
The crux of the matter is that some people simply do not seem to tolerate a transcharacter simply being there without the universe making a big deal out of it. It is rather amusing how you are now twisting and turning, your argument was after all that: "It's a token transsexual with making no sense in the universe." that they are now going to expand the character is quite opposite of them agreeing with you that she makes no sense in the universe.
You see when you make the case that a transcharacter does not make sense in the universe and you go out of your way to ignore that the universe itself has no problem with the character and even ignore why your own reasoning for her supposedly not making sense is wrong... Well then it becomes a bit unclear if your only complaint that it is 'poorly done' is genuine to begin with.
transsexual walks into a store/mages tower/temple says "i want to change sex" mage/cleric casts spell, store keep gives belt and BAM no more transsexual. but transexuals arent born with spells or a belt on them, so there certainly can be transexuals in the forgotten realms.
dude your not putting forward your opinions or views at all? just making yourself look silly by nit picking. put forward a view instead of poorly "attempting" to cut/paste dialog out of context.
That it is also debatable to what extent such magic is actually available and if people would indeed trust magic enough to actually do so, only piles up onto that. So now she is 'poorly done' because there is only one... The difficulty with that argument is that even if you would have 2, the argument would become: 'they are poorly done because there are just 2 to prevent there from being one as that would be called tokenism'
There is also more to the character, as you admit she is a cleric and functions as such to your party by providing her services, she can talk a bit about tempus... Really your argument boils down to simply a character cannot be trans if there are no other transcharacters and a transcharacter cannot simply exist.
That is absurd. I think I have put forward lots of my views while at the same time demonstrating why you are wrong ;-)
yet again you have put across zero arguments. just nit picked. The last desperate act.
My God, I haven't had this much fun since grade school 50 years ago. Okay, back to playing Siege of Dragonspear, which is incredibly awesome.
Back to your initial assertion - how is the line random and about how Corwin doesn't need a male to protect her?
Getting the Phil Fish feel from beamdog at the moment. And as someone who has been at their back in the past, watched their streams and all around loved how they seemed to be dedicated fans that wanted to bring BG back from the grave it has absolutely changed my view of them as a company. The whole "cozy small dev" feel is gone and what is left is the sour taste of a bunch of ham-fisted amateurs with an agenda.
Truly heartbreaking, had hoped for a better outcome. And for those that for a long time criticized their writing I tip my hat for you. I let my nostalgia glasses cloud my judgement and you were right and I'm sorry for acting like a fanboy but in my defence seeing and playing BG again was a dream come true. Now I will go back and beg steam for a refund(maybe it's too late), cry, cry a bit more and then play something else or maybe try out this new pizza recipe I thought of.
The soundtrack is still amazing though so you deserve cred for that.
It's almost like you are grasping at straws there 'soldier.' Is your command sending you to school as well? If I were you I'd ask them for help with your reading comprehension.
So I guess I must take this gilz powerz soiclist stuff and just kill any socailist in the game and of course reject the wymyn single mum (30 years ago wymyn stayed in beat down marriages for the kidz and the shame of being a single mum ( now they leave a man if he aint on par with his hamster play)
times change but Beamdawg made the guess that the "Call me a Wench and Die!" WYMYN POWER! I AM SHEERAH !!!!! AAEEEEE AEEEE LA la LA LA La XENA Warrior Wymyn!" would be ok with the curreent post Christ audience - after all they changed the marraige law in the USA why not join the progressive agenda and make Baldusr Gate the Siege of Dragonballz "You Man Warriors aint putting us down again! Corbraaa la la la la la la la!
They could have kept the Wymyn Killa Lady and still had appeal to fat older white conservative guys if they would have just hired this Japanese Ko KO lady to voice a Flaming Fist Enforcer Girl she could have used a Flail and said really sweet and then seconds later really angry and sullen voice chats... Beamdawg reely missed out on their judgements with that cheesey angry archer Corwin:
My dream Girl Character Ko Ko (should use her voice for next joinable character):
Branwen says nothing when you meet Tranzig, the man who petrified her and whom she swore vengeance against.
Yeslick says nothing when you meet Rielter, his "friend" who betrayed him, tortured him, and took over his clan hold/tomb.
Kivan says nothing when you meet the killer of his wife whom he was sworn to kill.
Off the top of my head the only characters who have any dialogue after their initial meetings are Coran, Shar-Teel and the bard love triangle (barring alignment fights)
Besides for that they are all just walking interchangeable hit points with different things to say when you click on them.
Are you talking about BG1 then? Or was SoD worse than that?
Yes. Generalized "bad writing" is why there was mass review bombing on the three major user review sites. Had nothing to do with diversity or SJW after all.
Another one - Deus Ex. From playing that game, which direction does the author(s) lean towards? Big government or anarchism? Given that you can choose either path, and neither path is really right or really wrong, we truly cannot tell which way those author(s) lean.
Compare that to SoD. I have never even played the game, and I already know which way the author(s) leans. That is wrong. I don't want politics in my games, thank you very much. If you must introduce politics, introduce enough ambiguity so that any viewpoints are the viewpoints of the characters and NOT transparently the viewpoints of the author(s).
Also, the hard-working country folk were made out to be nothing but yokels, scratching their rears and saying things like, "The sheep haven't been puttin' out lately."
Finally, If you input "Bill Clinton" as your Charname, every attribute will be changed to 25 when the game starts. No joke. Try it.
Just like how the Illithids used the dopplegangers to take over Durlag's Tower!
And just look at the social commentary shoved down our throats there, where the lone survivor with his own personal arms was able to drive out the corrupt illithids and dopplegangers (who were after his wealth by the way, taxes anyone?). But he was driven mad by the encounter, becoming a hermit and dangerous recluse.
They just can't stop pushing this liberal bull down our throats! That even when they have the STRONG MAN with his personal arms trying to defend his family and the money he earned, he has a bad end for daring to stand up to the government. I for one and SICK AND TIRED of this constantly being forced down our throats.
It's all so obvious. What we need is this kind of real world references taken out of our games, and we need it done now.