My calculations were wrong actually as I multiplied both attacks by 4 and forgot to add the +2 to each hit that offensive spin grants.
The final figure should have read 122 damage per round (still no slouch). Add an oil of speed in there too for another 36 dmg... Blades get rogue hla's so can create these daily if you don't mind save scumming.
I'm not too familiar with blades (never used Haer much myself), but if oil of speed works, then would Improved Haste? Because you can cast that on yourself and get even more attacks.
@Abi_Dalzim: Nope. Offensive Spin dispels and also grants immunity to haste spells (the mage version of Haste, the Stalker version, Improved Haste, and I think all the wild magic and Wish-related haste spells), but does not dispel or block the haste effect. Oil of Speed applies the haste effect without using a spell to do it, so it stacks with Offensive Spin.
Another well known blade tip is that free action allows you to move whilst under the effects of defensive spin.
That one I've heard before. Now I remember why I haven't really tried a blade before - discussion seems to veer into cheese territory very quickly. Same problem with Shapeshifters.
The max damage from offensive spin becomes rather meaningless early. Look at a long sword: it is just +3.5 to damage. Most of the damages comes from enchantment, str and proficiency boni. OS is hardly overpowered.
So for BG2 which is a better loadout for an evil blade?
(1) Mainhand: Crom Faeyr Offhand: Scarlet Ninjato
* Str25 (+4 dmg each hand and better thaco)
(2) Mainhand: Scarlet Ninjato Offhand: Belm
* Str22 * More chance for poison from the scarlet ninjato * 4apr instead of 3apr.
I'm leaning towards option 2, so that Korgan can get Crom Faeyr (which would look better on a dwarf than a half-elf), but mechanically what is the best option?
@Grum I would go with Option 2 for most battles and just have a backup +4/+5 weapon only for those battles when it is needed. Once you hit 18/00 or 19 STR the differences up to 25 aren't that giant anyway so if you want an NPC to wield Crom there is nothing wrong with your setup of two speed weapons, just realize you do need a backup for when +3 won't hit...
@Ammar: If you use ogre form from Polymorph Self, you will strike for 4d6 base damage, or an average of 14 not counting Strength bonuses. With maximum damage from offensive spin, you bump that 4d6 up to 24 flat. You can say an extra 3.5 extra damage per hit with a longsword isn't very impressive (it's equal to 9 Kensai levels), but what about an 10 damage per hit?
1: Yes it should work on any ranged weapon, i used offensive spin for a certain crossbow in baldurs gate 1.
army sycthe + 1 crossbow with 1 extra attack per round. Location beregost thunderhammer smithy, very effective weapon with offensive spin
2: Personally i would not go for a dagger On a blade, there are weapons with higher max dmg that can benefit more from offensive spin then a dagger. Also you dont have much pips to put in to weapons, and you will most likely not use a dagger at all in baldurs gate 2 as a blade ( you could maybe consider putting a point in daggers if you wanna use throwing daggers so you can cover melee and ranged with 1 point, but i dont think daggers or throwing daggers are very usefull as a blade i migth be wrong though, i havent really tried it on a blade but i personally think there are better options xd)
Agree, bards and especially blades are masters of cheese. Infinitely stacking enhanced bard songs with illusions meant you could completely break any fight, though I don't think they stack in ee any longer.
It's the whole package that makes offensive spin such a force. Kensai get Kai but blades get that with +2 to hit and damage, an extra attack and hasted movement speed. Considering it lasts quite a while and the blade gets plenty and early due to rogue leveling...
OS is good, even great, but coupled with rogue THAC0 and no APR, I don't see why the Blade gets all the grief from ppl. There's plenty of cheese in BG and the blade has some of it, but whatever you do with the blade, it will still have to rely on you resting since you gotta spend pretty much every spell slot you have for each fight.
I love blades, I really do, but they aren't any better or much cheesier than a ton of other classes or classcombinations.
Yes, you can move with defensive spin (or at least you could?) by unequipping and reequipping a ring of free action etc. This is cumbersome and tedious and gets old quickly. If you have the patiance to do that throughout a saga playthrough, then by all means do it. It's cheese, but it's tiresome cheese that very few ppl will have the tenacity to keep on doing.
Yes, blade's get max dmg on hit from OS, but they only have one prof point per category, so they don't get +2 from spec or higher. They will NEVER outperform a kensai or any other warrior class due to this and the lacking APR.
Yes, you can shapechange to make the most out of OS, like the ogre example, but ogre's are stuck at 1 APR, 2 with OS (and maybe 3 with OoS?). If you have the tenacity to do this combo in every fight, you've earned the right to your OPness. I think most ppl will try it once or twice, then get tired of it and just do normal buffs and fights.
Yes, you can have clones sing for you but that is once you've hit HLA's and you have already played through what, 70% of the game? If you want to optimize your build for the last portion of it, then go ahead, you've earned it! It's not really that much better than playing a dualclass with double HLA's (which takes the cake for being the most ambitious way to reach OPness!).
The discussion about the best tank is usually quite diverse. We should always take into consideration the following conditions:
1) are we talking about BG1 or BG2? 2) are we using any AI enhancing mods, like the SCS, or is it a game without mods?
Because answering these questions influences the overall resume greatly.
For example, while AC is the king in BG1, it becomes to be not the only defining factor in SoA and especially in ToB. For BG1, you can start as a halfling fighter (for saving throws and 19 DEX), equip the best armour (full plate), add the best ring and/or cloak, take a large shield, and you're good to go against nearly everything the game throws at you. Or you can start as a dwarven defender, and use their special ability for 50% damage resistance, as well as unbelievable HPs due to d12 rolls and 19 CON. Or, as suggested in this thread, use Defensive Stance on your bard, coupled with Mirror Image and/or Blur.
For BG2, however, equipping the best armour is not enough. Enemies start hitting hard and getting high THAC0. And you start thinking either about completely mitigating their damage by becoming immune to it or about resisting to the damage. Also, BG2 starts to throw more mages at you, so you have to think about protection from magic more than you did in BG1. So you can't imagine tanking without stoneskins and mirror images, Protection from Magical Weapons, or equipping Defender of Eastheaven and combining it with Armour of Faith (which after the 10th level offer a solid boost in resisting damage), and maybe even Ironskins if you're a druid. Also, you need protection from magic, so Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, Spell Deflection, Protection from Magical Energy etc etc start playing major role. Again, as suggested in this thread, a bard can combine protections both from physical and magical damage.
With the SCS mod, you need even more magical protection in BG2, and you also need it in BG1.
This is why I find following characters to be good tanks across the whole game, from Candlekeep to ToB (in no particular order, each of them has their own pros and cons):
I think blade causes so much discussion as they're frequently underestimated by those who haven't learned to maximise their potential. They also do things a bit differently than your typical tank and add a lot of style to any party.
That they do all this as a single class is also a plus for many who don't enjoy multi or dual classes so much.
If you want the definitive guide to blades, check out the scythesong one at sorcerers palace. I believe the bit about stacking bard songs is made impossible by bgee but the rest is still valid.
It's the whole package that makes offensive spin such a force. Kensai get Kai but blades get that with +2 to hit and damage, an extra attack and hasted movement speed. Considering it lasts quite a while and the blade gets plenty and early due to rogue leveling...
Sure, but you need to consider who gets the package. The +1 attack just negates a part of the fighting advantage, a normal fighter has. And considering that it does not work haste & improved haste, it becomes obsolete for difficult battles, where haste is a standard buff.
And especially when comparing it with Kai, it is important to note that the Kensai gets the +hit and + damage boni permanently (kit ability) and they scale further.
@Ammar: If you use ogre form from Polymorph Self, you will strike for 4d6 base damage, or an average of 14 not counting Strength bonuses. With maximum damage from offensive spin, you bump that 4d6 up to 24 flat. You can say an extra 3.5 extra damage per hit with a longsword isn't very impressive (it's equal to 9 Kensai levels), but what about an 10 damage per hit?
That is a nice trick. I can't run the numbers right now. I suspect that while the relative advantage Ogre with max damage vs Ogre without max damage looks impressive, the Blade will do more damage in his natural form with decent equipment.
Also the level 4 slot is quite valuable - the Blade could have a Stoneskin or a Improved Invisiblity in there.
Please note, that I am not saying the blade is not powerful. Any character that is a semi-competent fighter and can cast arcane spells is more powerful than most NPCs. But it's not because of offensive spin, which only rocks in the low levels, before fighters get extra attacks & start pulling ahead in terms of THAC0.
@Ammar: For reference, a Blade in ogre form will do 96 damage per round due to 18/00 Strength and the ogre form's natural haste effect, which stacks with Offensive Spin but not Oil of Speed. A Blade with Belm and the Flail of Ages will do 85 damage when using Offensive Spin if it has the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength equipped.
Ogre form will be the strongest option in terms of pure damage for Blades from early to midgame Shadows of Amn. Later, as you get better items, it will lag in importance, and Stoneskin and Improved Invisibility will become more necessary due to improving enemy THAC0 values.
Note that the ogre form has no enchantment bonus, so the ogre form has weaker THAC0 than with conventional weapons. This is relevant because Blades will seldom have close to a 95% hit chance on tougher enemies, and THAC0 therefore has an important impact on a Blade's performance.
Also for reference, an ordinary midgame Kensai with Celestial Fury and Belm, when hasted and with 19 Strength, will deal 112.5 damage per round. Flail of Ages is slightly higher at 120.5.
@Ammar: For reference, a Blade in ogre form will do 96 damage per round due to 18/00 Strength and the ogre form's natural haste effect, which stacks with Offensive Spin but not Oil of Speed. A Blade with Belm and the Flail of Ages will do 85 damage when using Offensive Spin if it has the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength equipped.
Ogre form will be the strongest option in terms of pure damage for Blades from early to midgame Shadows of Amn. Later, as you get better items, it will lag in importance, and Stoneskin and Improved Invisibility will become more necessary due to improving enemy THAC0 values.
Note that the ogre form has no enchantment bonus, so the ogre form has weaker THAC0 than with conventional weapons. This is relevant because Blades will seldom have close to a 95% hit chance on tougher enemies, and THAC0 therefore has an important impact on a Blade's performance.
Also for reference, an ordinary midgame Kensai with Celestial Fury and Belm, when hasted and with 19 Strength, will deal 112.5 damage per round. Flail of Ages is slightly higher at 120.5.
Thanks for the numbers, I thought it would come down to THAC0. Looking at your 96/85 damage, this a ratio of about 1.13. When not taking criticals into account damage dealt is hit chance times damage.
For the Blade to do more damage than the Ogre this means that the relative hit chance must be at least 1.13 in favor of the Blade, for him to outperform the ogre. As long as the ogre has a hit chance of 85% or less, this means 3 point of THAC0 suffice, if the hit chance of the ogre is 80% or less 2 points of THAC0 suffice and when the hit chance is 40% or less, even a single point of THAC0 in favor of the Blade is enough. If the hit chance is 90% or higher the ogre wins.
I think this means a +2 weapon is usually enough for the Blade to win, but a +3 weapon should certainly suffice. It's a bit more complicated due to the off-hand penalty. Also the existence of critical hits should help the ogre more.
With a PC Blade you would also need to consider Draw Upon Holy Might, which would help the natural form Blade.
Offensive spin will never become obsolete for the blade though.
Blade with improved haste and 2 x long sword +3 and assuming 20 str (going for crude averages here)
With improved haste 4 (1d8 weapon) +3 (enchanment dmg) +8 (str bonus) x 4 = 60 dmg per round
With offensive spin (same order as above) 8 + 3 + 8 + 2 (spin bonus) x 3apr = 63 dmg per round.
You can also consider that improved haste takes up a level 6 spell slot whilst a blade gets up to 9 of each spin as innate abilities and I'm also thinking improved haste wont stack with oil of speed (I haven't tested that), whilst spin does.
Offensive spin will never become obsolete for the blade though.
Blade with improved haste and 2 x long sword +3 and assuming 20 str (going for crude averages here)
With improved haste 4 (1d8 weapon) +3 (enchanment dmg) +8 (str bonus) x 4 = 60 dmg per round
With offensive spin (same order as above) 8 + 3 + 8 + 2 (spin bonus) x 3apr = 63 dmg per round.
You can also consider that improved haste takes up a level 6 spell slot whilst a blade gets up to 9 of each spin as innate abilities and I'm also thinking improved haste wont stack with oil of speed (I haven't tested that), whilst spin does.
Most blades will use weapons which give extra attacks and this changes the picture. And the IH must not be necessarily cast by the bard himself.
I agree that it is not obsolete, especially when not resting after every fight. But late game it will not be what you use for the difficult fights.
More attacks only stacks the average damage further in favour of offensive spin (as far as a blade is concerned). e.g. swap the offhand longsword for belm and you get 87 dmg per round under imp haste and 103 under offensive spin.
I'll grant that a Kensai/ mage is perhaps the better damage dealer with their sword/ axe/ hammer, as the natural 4 apr the warrior gets makes improved haste pretty incredible and this coupled with Kai increases their reliable damage to beyond offensive spin levels, especially when the Kensai + to damage is considered - only that specific combination however (natural 4apr, imp haste, kensai + dmg and Kai) reliably outdoes offensive spin... no other class or class combination will.
All this is not bad when you consider the blade is a single class (no dual downtime or split level xp) capable of spell casting up to level 6 (at the highest caster level in the game), stealing (in shops too @Grum did you know that?), using 9 of either spin a day, having thief hla's (time stop trap, spike trap, UAI), having the enhanced bard song which gives the party immunity to the majority of debilitating effects and buffing their combat prowess considerably (no cooldown, no spell duration), oh and their lore still overtakes any non-bard.
I took 4 as average on 1d8. I'm not great at math so if you say its 4.5 so be it.
For the blade I took 2 natural attacks (dual wielding). Improved haste would double this to 4 and spin adds 1 instead (for 3).
I think the 103 was a mistake on my part as I can't see anything wrong with your sums. That being the case it would appear that a non-kensai warrior will out damage the blade, but hey it's still decent damage ave especially since it all comes from an innate ability which can be cast so often (and from level 1).
I believe spin stacks with potions of speed as well, so you could still hit 4 AP w/ OS. However, a blade is not all about being a great tank and damage dealer, it's about being able to step in and fill in for either role pretty well, right? I mean, with no changing of gear and regardless of spells cast you can hit a button for insta +10 AC during a battle when the tank gets dangerously low on HP while in the next you click the other button, drink a potion and go whirling around doing max damage w/ bonus to hit and an extra attack, two extra's with the potion.
Fighter/Mage is better overall (any multi or dual/kit will be better if for no other reason than natural APR). However, where the Blade shines through most of the game is the same as where any bard is supposed to shine... He can step in as a tank, or a dps, or a wizard. He won't be the best at any of these roles, but he will be an adequate secondary / fill-in for all of them. Kind of like a Manager/Leader...able to step in and maintain the game plan when one of the other team members is unable to fulfill their role or needs assistance at some point in time. Maybe not as good as the specialist, but generally sufficient as a fill in until the specialist is able to return.
Generally this is the argument against a bard, no matter what you do, some other class can do it better. However, to me this is the argument FOR a bard, especially a blade... You can use different tactics in different battles and have the ability to change on the fly when needed. Can make for a fun play through.
@JuliusBorisov list and reasons are great but I miss my beloved berserker. Blanket immunities vs game ending status effects plus 2 THAC0, dmg, AC and 15 hp for 10 rounds several times per day is just incredibly good and on it's own a reason to be a contender for "best tank". With a dwarf your saves will also be really strong.
What I do not like about blades is the very very high maintenance for a good tank and subpar fighter, I will admit that access to wands and buffs/debuffs is very good though. Imho if you want to micro and buff enough to make a blade good a F/M or FMT does what a blade does, but better. Your remove magic will never work where it matters anyway even though blades level fast.
@Otherguy end game, I agree with you, but throughout BG1 and through a very good portion of BGII the Blades ability to instantly increase AC by 10 is a huge boon. In addition, unless you are spam resting you can't use Improved Haste CONSTANTLY as your spell slots are limited. In a party situation you can Improve haste Korgan or Minsc (or any other fighter types) with your main mage and you can still run offensive spin with your blade PC (or Haer Dallis). Eventually later in SoA and in TOB the Fighter/Mage will certainly outshine the Blade in every aspect, but that doesn't mean the Blade is worthless by any means.
Of course if your point was simply that they are not the best, I think most would agree with you Zerker, Dwarven Defender, Fighter/Mage and maybe a few other classes will be better overall tanks, especially late game.
@Chad I think blades are really solid, I just wouldn't call them the best at anything. The title of this thread asked if the blade was the best tank, and I don't think it is. And if they are OP, and I don't think they are.
Defensive spin is really strong, but there are many situations where it won't save you.
If I only got 1 vote for the "best tank" for a complete playthrough I would pick dwarven defender or berserker. F/C is very strong but 1 dispel or remove magic is all it takes for them to turn into a gimped fighter. Mage hybrids are of course the strongest but they are dependant on many buffs, therefore needs to rest a lot and demands a lot of meta knowledge unless you want to rest after every fight, plus the second your SI: abjuration goes down you're pretty much toast.
@Chad I think blades are really solid, I just wouldn't call them the best at anything. The title of this thread asked if the blade was the best tank, and I don't think it is. And if they are OP, and I don't think they are.
Defensive spin is really strong, but there are many situations where it won't save you.
If I only got 1 vote for the "best tank" for a complete playthrough I would pick dwarven defender or berserker. F/C is very strong but 1 dispel or remove magic is all it takes for them to turn into a gimped fighter. Mage hybrids are of course the strongest but they are dependant on many buffs, therefore needs to rest a lot and demands a lot of meta knowledge unless you want to rest after every fight, plus the second your SI: abjuration goes down you're pretty much toast.
If you want a tank, take a dwarf. That's the takeaway of this.
Comments
(1) Mainhand: Crom Faeyr
Offhand: Scarlet Ninjato
* Str25 (+4 dmg each hand and better thaco)
(2) Mainhand: Scarlet Ninjato
Offhand: Belm
* Str22
* More chance for poison from the scarlet ninjato
* 4apr instead of 3apr.
I'm leaning towards option 2, so that Korgan can get Crom Faeyr (which would look better on a dwarf than a half-elf), but mechanically what is the best option?
1) Does the spin bonuses also apply to ranged? Like if I were to use a shortbow would offensive spin apply to those attacks?
2) With average damages being fairly close, would it be a decent idea to use 2 daggers, as they generally have great condition effects?
1: Yes it should work on any ranged weapon, i used offensive spin for a certain crossbow in baldurs gate 1.
2: Personally i would not go for a dagger
On a blade, there are weapons with higher max dmg that can benefit more from offensive spin then a dagger.
Also you dont have much pips to put in to weapons, and you will most likely not use a dagger at all in baldurs gate 2 as a blade ( you could maybe consider putting a point in daggers if you wanna use throwing daggers so you can cover melee and ranged with 1 point, but i dont think daggers or throwing daggers are very usefull as a blade i migth be wrong though, i havent really tried it on a blade but i personally think there are better options xd)
I like the ogre suggestion, hadn't heard it before.
@Abi_Dalzim
Agree, bards and especially blades are masters of cheese. Infinitely stacking enhanced bard songs with illusions meant you could completely break any fight, though I don't think they stack in ee any longer.
@Ammar
It's the whole package that makes offensive spin such a force. Kensai get Kai but blades get that with +2 to hit and damage, an extra attack and hasted movement speed. Considering it lasts quite a while and the blade gets plenty and early due to rogue leveling...
I love blades, I really do, but they aren't any better or much cheesier than a ton of other classes or classcombinations.
Yes, you can move with defensive spin (or at least you could?) by unequipping and reequipping a ring of free action etc. This is cumbersome and tedious and gets old quickly. If you have the patiance to do that throughout a saga playthrough, then by all means do it. It's cheese, but it's tiresome cheese that very few ppl will have the tenacity to keep on doing.
Yes, blade's get max dmg on hit from OS, but they only have one prof point per category, so they don't get +2 from spec or higher. They will NEVER outperform a kensai or any other warrior class due to this and the lacking APR.
Yes, you can shapechange to make the most out of OS, like the ogre example, but ogre's are stuck at 1 APR, 2 with OS (and maybe 3 with OoS?). If you have the tenacity to do this combo in every fight, you've earned the right to your OPness. I think most ppl will try it once or twice, then get tired of it and just do normal buffs and fights.
Yes, you can have clones sing for you but that is once you've hit HLA's and you have already played through what, 70% of the game? If you want to optimize your build for the last portion of it, then go ahead, you've earned it! It's not really that much better than playing a dualclass with double HLA's (which takes the cake for being the most ambitious way to reach OPness!).
1) are we talking about BG1 or BG2?
2) are we using any AI enhancing mods, like the SCS, or is it a game without mods?
Because answering these questions influences the overall resume greatly.
For example, while AC is the king in BG1, it becomes to be not the only defining factor in SoA and especially in ToB. For BG1, you can start as a halfling fighter (for saving throws and 19 DEX), equip the best armour (full plate), add the best ring and/or cloak, take a large shield, and you're good to go against nearly everything the game throws at you. Or you can start as a dwarven defender, and use their special ability for 50% damage resistance, as well as unbelievable HPs due to d12 rolls and 19 CON. Or, as suggested in this thread, use Defensive Stance on your bard, coupled with Mirror Image and/or Blur.
For BG2, however, equipping the best armour is not enough. Enemies start hitting hard and getting high THAC0. And you start thinking either about completely mitigating their damage by becoming immune to it or about resisting to the damage. Also, BG2 starts to throw more mages at you, so you have to think about protection from magic more than you did in BG1. So you can't imagine tanking without stoneskins and mirror images, Protection from Magical Weapons, or equipping Defender of Eastheaven and combining it with Armour of Faith (which after the 10th level offer a solid boost in resisting damage), and maybe even Ironskins if you're a druid. Also, you need protection from magic, so Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, Spell Deflection, Protection from Magical Energy etc etc start playing major role. Again, as suggested in this thread, a bard can combine protections both from physical and magical damage.
With the SCS mod, you need even more magical protection in BG2, and you also need it in BG1.
This is why I find following characters to be good tanks across the whole game, from Candlekeep to ToB (in no particular order, each of them has their own pros and cons):
- dwarven defender;
- dwarf fighter/cleric multiclass;
- fighter/druid;
- fighter/mage;
- blade;
- FMC.
Maybe there're even more choices. But it would be hard for me to define the best tank of them all.
That they do all this as a single class is also a plus for many who don't enjoy multi or dual classes so much.
@Grum
If you want the definitive guide to blades, check out the scythesong one at sorcerers palace. I believe the bit about stacking bard songs is made impossible by bgee but the rest is still valid.
And especially when comparing it with Kai, it is important to note that the Kensai gets the +hit and + damage boni permanently (kit ability) and they scale further. That is a nice trick. I can't run the numbers right now. I suspect that while the relative advantage Ogre with max damage vs Ogre without max damage looks impressive, the Blade will do more damage in his natural form with decent equipment.
Also the level 4 slot is quite valuable - the Blade could have a Stoneskin or a Improved Invisiblity in there.
Please note, that I am not saying the blade is not powerful. Any character that is a semi-competent fighter and can cast arcane spells is more powerful than most NPCs. But it's not because of offensive spin, which only rocks in the low levels, before fighters get extra attacks & start pulling ahead in terms of THAC0.
Ogre form will be the strongest option in terms of pure damage for Blades from early to midgame Shadows of Amn. Later, as you get better items, it will lag in importance, and Stoneskin and Improved Invisibility will become more necessary due to improving enemy THAC0 values.
Note that the ogre form has no enchantment bonus, so the ogre form has weaker THAC0 than with conventional weapons. This is relevant because Blades will seldom have close to a 95% hit chance on tougher enemies, and THAC0 therefore has an important impact on a Blade's performance.
Also for reference, an ordinary midgame Kensai with Celestial Fury and Belm, when hasted and with 19 Strength, will deal 112.5 damage per round. Flail of Ages is slightly higher at 120.5.
Thanks for the numbers, I thought it would come down to THAC0. Looking at your 96/85 damage, this a ratio of about 1.13. When not taking criticals into account damage dealt is hit chance times damage.
For the Blade to do more damage than the Ogre this means that the relative hit chance must be at least 1.13 in favor of the Blade, for him to outperform the ogre. As long as the ogre has a hit chance of 85% or less, this means 3 point of THAC0 suffice, if the hit chance of the ogre is 80% or less 2 points of THAC0 suffice and when the hit chance is 40% or less, even a single point of THAC0 in favor of the Blade is enough. If the hit chance is 90% or higher the ogre wins.
I think this means a +2 weapon is usually enough for the Blade to win, but a +3 weapon should certainly suffice. It's a bit more complicated due to the off-hand penalty. Also the existence of critical hits should help the ogre more.
With a PC Blade you would also need to consider Draw Upon Holy Might, which would help the natural form Blade.
Blade with improved haste and 2 x long sword +3 and assuming 20 str (going for crude averages here)
With improved haste
4 (1d8 weapon) +3 (enchanment dmg) +8 (str bonus) x 4 = 60 dmg per round
With offensive spin (same order as above)
8 + 3 + 8 + 2 (spin bonus) x 3apr = 63 dmg per round.
You can also consider that improved haste takes up a level 6 spell slot whilst a blade gets up to 9 of each spin as innate abilities and I'm also thinking improved haste wont stack with oil of speed (I haven't tested that), whilst spin does.
I agree that it is not obsolete, especially when not resting after every fight. But late game it will not be what you use for the difficult fights.
More attacks only stacks the average damage further in favour of offensive spin (as far as a blade is concerned). e.g. swap the offhand longsword for belm and you get 87 dmg per round under imp haste and 103 under offensive spin.
I'll grant that a Kensai/ mage is perhaps the better damage dealer with their sword/ axe/ hammer, as the natural 4 apr the warrior gets makes improved haste pretty incredible and this coupled with Kai increases their reliable damage to beyond offensive spin levels, especially when the Kensai + to damage is considered - only that specific combination however (natural 4apr, imp haste, kensai + dmg and Kai) reliably outdoes offensive spin... no other class or class combination will.
All this is not bad when you consider the blade is a single class (no dual downtime or split level xp) capable of spell casting up to level 6 (at the highest caster level in the game), stealing (in shops too @Grum did you know that?), using 9 of either spin a day, having thief hla's (time stop trap, spike trap, UAI), having the enhanced bard song which gives the party immunity to the majority of debilitating effects and buffing their combat prowess considerably (no cooldown, no spell duration), oh and their lore still overtakes any non-bard.
Your formula above is wrong. Average damage for a longsword is 4.5 not 4.
Also according to your numbers
IH:
4 attacks at 4.5 + 3 + 8 = 62
2 attacks at 4.5 + 2 + 8 = 29
--> total = 91
OS:
3 attacks at 8 + 3 + 10 = 63
1 attack at + 8 + 2 + 10 = 20
--> total of 83
How did you arrive at 87/103?
This still ignored juicy on-hit effects which profit from high APR, e.g. Flail of Ages or Celestial Fury.
And every improved hasted Fighter will outdamage a blade with offensive spin, not just a Kensai.
For the blade I took 2 natural attacks (dual wielding). Improved haste would double this to 4 and spin adds 1 instead (for 3).
I think the 103 was a mistake on my part as I can't see anything wrong with your sums. That being the case it would appear that a non-kensai warrior will out damage the blade, but hey it's still decent damage ave especially since it all comes from an innate ability which can be cast so often (and from level 1).
Fighter/Mage is better overall (any multi or dual/kit will be better if for no other reason than natural APR). However, where the Blade shines through most of the game is the same as where any bard is supposed to shine... He can step in as a tank, or a dps, or a wizard. He won't be the best at any of these roles, but he will be an adequate secondary / fill-in for all of them. Kind of like a Manager/Leader...able to step in and maintain the game plan when one of the other team members is unable to fulfill their role or needs assistance at some point in time. Maybe not as good as the specialist, but generally sufficient as a fill in until the specialist is able to return.
Generally this is the argument against a bard, no matter what you do, some other class can do it better. However, to me this is the argument FOR a bard, especially a blade... You can use different tactics in different battles and have the ability to change on the fly when needed. Can make for a fun play through.
What I do not like about blades is the very very high maintenance for a good tank and subpar fighter, I will admit that access to wands and buffs/debuffs is very good though. Imho if you want to micro and buff enough to make a blade good a F/M or FMT does what a blade does, but better. Your remove magic will never work where it matters anyway even though blades level fast.
Of course if your point was simply that they are not the best, I think most would agree with you
Defensive spin is really strong, but there are many situations where it won't save you.
If I only got 1 vote for the "best tank" for a complete playthrough I would pick dwarven defender or berserker. F/C is very strong but 1 dispel or remove magic is all it takes for them to turn into a gimped fighter. Mage hybrids are of course the strongest but they are dependant on many buffs, therefore needs to rest a lot and demands a lot of meta knowledge unless you want to rest after every fight, plus the second your SI: abjuration goes down you're pretty much toast.