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Extra-lame spells

chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
The games have a bunch of spells that just leave me scratching my chin. I think Reflected Image, the 1st-level version of Mirror Image, takes the cake though. :flushed:

And I think it's wrong-headed that early-level spells in these games are discarded as soon as the player gets something higher up. Hardly any of them scale. Well, people'll use Magic Missile, but what else? In PnP... but then, this isn't PnP. No Invisible Servant or Message here.

By the way, does Charm Person still work to convince Mulahey to spill the beans in BGEE? Beamdog nerfed the spell all the way down, but at least Bioware originally had some inclination to make it useful outside of fighting.
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Comments

  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Reflected Image is actually underrated. When you play a Blade or any AC-tank the image can mean a 50% chance of avoiding a critical hit. While Mirror Image is obviously superior Reflected Image is useful in a pinch and in no way useless.

    Armor, Blindness, Shield, Sleep and Spook are all level 1 spells that are at worst useful and at best invaluable at some point in the game.

    I have no idea what Beamdog did to charm but I can confirm that all charm-specific dialog still exists.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    People never consider the power of Grease if used right against melee opponents. You can melt them with your ranged weapons just with a level one spell. Of course, Sleep is almost always better (except it doesn't affect Undead, and Grease does).
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,321
    CrevsDaak said:

    People never consider the power of Grease if used right against melee opponents. You can melt them with your ranged weapons just with a level one spell. Of course, Sleep is almost always better (except it doesn't affect Undead, and Grease does).

    That may be a bit strong. Many opponents are too high level for sleep, but will struggle to move in a layered grease field.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919

    Having found uses for Power Word: Sleep, I can confirm that even the lamest spells can be strong when used correctly.

    How were you able to you it effectively?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @mf2112: In SCS, enemies often recover from heavy blows using potions. PW: Sleep prevents them from recovering. Unless you're using Harm, however, you do need an idea of how much HP an enemy really has.

    It's still not a horribly deadly spell, but it has the advantage of offering no save. If it stops an enemy from drinking a potion, it can effectively do 47 damage (20 damage base, plus preventing 27 healing from the potion).
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Grond0 said:

    CrevsDaak said:

    People never consider the power of Grease if used right against melee opponents. You can melt them with your ranged weapons just with a level one spell. Of course, Sleep is almost always better (except it doesn't affect Undead, and Grease does).

    That may be a bit strong. Many opponents are too high level for sleep, but will struggle to move in a layered grease field.
    Yeah I exaggerated a bit there. I was thinking more about the spells in BG1 where Sleep is basically broken.
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    I think Grease is overpowered. It's as good as Web, and it doesn't completely disable party characters who get caught in it. Blindness? I've thought about using it, but every time it turned out that Charm Person, Sleep or some small but real damage-dealing spell would be better. Spook? Same thing but more so.

    Maybe my problem with the early spells is not only that they hardly scale at all but also that they are not so useful against enemies of comparable level. Comparable to the caster. I mean, Sleep is fine, but otherwise there is very little 1st-level spells can do in a fight with a bunch of Gibberlings or Hobgoblins. Spells like Blindness or Spook again may be useful after all against something stronger, like an Ogre (but in my party fighters or archers or a Command take care of those). But with weaker enemies wizards just stand by or cast their Larloch's Drain...

    Of course, they ARE only 1st-level spells, but in PnP there were at least creative ways of applying cantrips, illusions... Audible Glamer - which level was that?

    Not to make it into a plug for my upcoming mod, but I'm going to introduce a few low-level spells that let casters be more useful, with some ingenuity.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    Hold up, you don't think Spook is useful? Charm Person and Sleep don't have -6 saving throw penalties.
    chimeric said:

    Not to make it into a plug for my upcoming mod, but I'm going to introduce a few low-level spells that let casters be more useful, with some ingenuity.


  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    chimeric said:

    But with weaker enemies wizards just stand by or cast their Larloch's Drain...

    Wait. This spell is considered useful? 1-4 hit points and it doesn't scale at all? Yeah, it is nice that enemy loses and caster gains, but a paltry 1-4 is almost useless when Magic MIssile does D4+1 for every 3 levels.

    What am I missing?
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited July 2016
    I've found Larloch's Drain to be pretty useful if you don't have enough hitpoints to avoid PW: Sleep/Death and you don't have a Cleric to cast Aid on you, but with Larloch's you get enough HP to survive those spells. Other than that I've never used it.
  • LordVemLordVem Member Posts: 28
    chimeric said:

    Blindness? I've thought about using it, but every time it turned out that Charm Person, Sleep or some small but real damage-dealing spell would be better.

    Blindness is basically a save or die. It lasts 2 hours, so you have as long as you want to pelt them to death with ranged weapons. I'm especially finding it useful on LoB, because disablers with lower durations often run out before you have a chance to kill the enemy (looking at you glitterdust).

    I don't know if on SCS the AI is better at handling or dispelling it, but it's still a powerful debuff regardless.
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    edited July 2016
    You know, I meant something else by "lame." A combination of weak, crude, unbalanced and boring. "Don't-want-to-touch-it" is the feeling most early spells give me, even more so than high-level ones. A whole lot of magic in these games was dumbed down to direct damage and some simple debuffs, while, I can imagine, the designers could have tried and made them more sophisticated. There are a lot of nuances that exist in those spells in pen-and-paper, and some, at least, could have been implemented. I don't begrudge Bioware that it had these simple mechanics in 1998, when it made its debut port of AD&D to the computer. But BG2 with its garish and insipid hack-and-slash focus ruined the ideas of magic for all Infinity Engine games (magic has to be about fighting) and the idea of fighting itself (debuff and pounce). And now that Beamdog holds that legacy... of Bhaal, no less... the original game's engine and process are screwed up too.

    The worst thing Bioware did in BG2, and that we now inherit, are the protection-removal spells: Secret Word, Breach and so on. By Christ, who ever told them it would be cool to have, on the one hand, mounting numbers of defenses for wizards and on the other - more and more ways to remove them? Your party members just have to devote a portion of any fight with a mage now to bringing down his shields, it's the order of the day. He does Minor Globe, I do Breach. What? Is this what I became a wizard for? It's the most fucking boring thing I've ever done in a CRPG.

    So just discussing whether the spells do too much damage or whether their saving throws are right misses the point. Half of the point, anyway. Sure, now that I know that Spook has -6 to the save I can't help but think that it's way overpowered for a spell of any level. On the other hand, if the save was unmodified, it would be more tolerable power-wise, but hardly more interesting. It's just Horror for one. You may ask: well, what would be interesting? I'll give you an example: Blink. Blink from pen-and-paper would be interesting, and so could be, for example, Suggestion or Cloudkill with some clever script to make the cloud move away and clear the ground. Lots of things could be. So you see, it's almost insulting for me to hear World of Warcraft-style discussion of spells' merits - which save is better than what, how much damage per round what does and so on. I mean, those are valid topics, but I wish someone other than myself saw the other side.

    P.S. What's the point of that big animation, @joluv? The mod will be made, though I don't promise a lot of spells straight away. There'll be tricky scripting, by definition.
    Post edited by chimeric on
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    chimeric said:

    P.S. What's the point of that big animation, @joluv? The mod will be made, though I don't promise a lot of spells straight away. There'll be tricky scripting, by definition.

    I guess the point was that you have a lot of ideas about how the game ought to be, and I think some of them are going to be harder to implement than you expect. Presenting your prospective first mod as a contrast seems like putting the cart before the horse.

    It wasn't meant as a harsh criticism; Butch Cassidy is one of my favorite characters. Some of your ideas sound cool, you seem very determined, and I'm interested to see what you'll come up with.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    chimeric said:

    The worst thing Bioware did in BG2, and that we now inherit, are the protection-removal spells: Secret Word, Breach and so on. By Christ, who ever told them it would be cool to have, on the one hand, mounting numbers of defenses for wizards and on the other - more and more ways to remove them? Your party members just have to devote a portion of any fight with a mage now to bringing down his shields, it's the order of the day. He does Minor Globe, I do Breach. What? Is this what I became a wizard for? It's the most fucking boring thing I've ever done in a CRPG.

    I think that's pretty fun, and that it balances the game a bit, otherwise Mages would be unbalanced because you won't be able to touch them.
    chimeric said:

    Cloudkill with some clever script to make the cloud move away and clear the ground.

    Clever script ≠ something that the game engine isn't designed for.

    Though you could spawn a lot of 2 second duration clouds in a specific order from an invisible bird, but since it will be cast in different areas and with different orientations it won't be easy anyway. You can't detect walls so it would be very hard for it not to go into "unwalkable" parts of the map and so on. Still, I won't say it's impossible because you can script it for each area given enough time (or you can make different spells and let the player choose a direction from all the 8 possible ones (N, NW, W, SW, S, SE, E, NE) the game has).

    Also, did you ever take a look at Galactycon's Spellpack? It brings several spells closer to PnP IIRC besides using really smart/clever/hackish ways to get around the engine to accomplish that.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Hm, I don't think this discussion is off topic.

    Reflect image isn't in top lamest spells though. It's usable throughout the game. I would put good berries up there. What a lame spell!
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    Goodberry was okay in BG1, early in the game when you couldn't afford a lot of healing potions. There is also a fun reverse in PnP, Badberry...

    To @joluv : I'm starting small with my spells. For the first incarnation of my spell pack I'll have two utility spells and one combat spell that's proving to be a pain in the ass to code.

    To @CrevsDaak : What I hate is how I have to do Breach or something similar every time I face at least a medium-level mage. It was one of the major reasons why I never went back to BG2, that magic became so dull. The first thing they all do when they see you is fire off Stoneskin and the Globe, like they've all been waiting their whole lives to be attacked. I understand it's to keep mages from being instantly hacked to death, but that itself comes from a logic that veered off in the wrong direction at some point.

    It wasn't always so. Remember the original Baldur's Gate, how, for example, all of the illusions from a Mirror Image had to be put out before you could get to the wizard behind? That was solid protection, won them at least a round or two, which really made wizards not to be trifled with. But by the sequel's time somehow anything powerful and pleasant to use began to look extreme to Bioware, and more so to Beamdog, so they had to nerf and nerf until "meh" began to be considered the balance to aim for. If instead mages' invisibility wasn't so easy to see through with a cheap Detect, if their Protection From Normal Missiles made any sense against parties with quivers of +1 and +2 arrows, and so on, then they wouldn't need those crazy defenses, and the party, in turn, wouldn't need to bring them down, which just becomes absurd at high levels. The logic is too straightforward, every encounter is "solved" the same way, with a few variations... And this gets players thinking along the lines of Diablo, min-maxing, until there is no thrill, mystery or uncertainty left.

    Just now I wondered to myself, as I was putting 20% fat yogurt in the fridge, what is it that draws people to savage pen-and-paper modules like the Tomb of Horrors? I've never played that one, but I read the material, and the reason has got to be that it's such a visceral and no-compromise experience. There is no "meh" in there and no predictability. What, I think, this game could use is more ways to play, rather than win, more tricks. So I'm going to look at Galactygon's pack for sure, when I get the chance. He's a smart coder, too.

    About Cloudkill. How about doing it by spawning an invisible creature at cursor first, then having the bird fly to it? It wouldn't be an infinite range spell that way, but if I set it at, say, 100 feet it ought to be enough to clear out Firewine... And if I made the beacon creature move away from the caster too, or perhaps from another, immobile creature to spawn next to the caster, just so there is no meandering about? Anyway, this is getting technical for the topic.

    Reflected image. Mirror Image. Hey, does anyone remember this episode from the second Conan movie? It's one of my all-time favorites. Silly, but still great:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HitAtndOsWw
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    chimeric said:

    About Cloudkill. How about doing it by spawning an invisible creature at cursor first, then having the bird fly to it? It wouldn't be an infinite range spell that way, but if I set it at, say, 100 feet it ought to be enough to clear out Firewine... And if I made the beacon creature move away from the caster too, or perhaps from another, immobile creature to spawn next to the caster, just so there is no meandering about?

    Yeah, that could work, or you could even have the player summon two invisible creatures (something like the Wand of Lightning in BG2 should be used for that) and state that the cloud will always go from the 1st to the 2nd one.
    chimeric said:

    To CrevsDaak : What I hate is how I have to do Breach or something similar every time I face at least a medium-level mage. It was one of the major reasons why I never went back to BG2, that magic became so dull. The first thing they all do when they see you is fire off Stoneskin and the Globe, like they've all been waiting their whole lives to be attacked. I understand it's to keep mages from being instantly hacked to death, but that itself comes from a logic that veered off in the wrong direction at some point.

    It wasn't always so. Remember the original Baldur's Gate, how, for example, all of the illusions from a Mirror Image had to be put out before you could get to the wizard behind? That was solid protection, won them at least a round or two, which really made wizards not to be trifled with. But by the sequel's time somehow anything powerful and pleasant to use began to look extreme to Bioware, and more so to Beamdog, so they had to nerf and nerf until "meh" began to be considered the balance to aim for. If instead mages' invisibility wasn't so easy to see through with a cheap Detect, if their Protection From Normal Missiles made any sense against parties with quivers of +1 and +2 arrows, and so on, then they wouldn't need those crazy defenses, and the party, in turn, wouldn't need to bring them down, which just becomes absurd at high levels. The logic is too straightforward, every encounter is "solved" the same way, with a few variations... And this gets players thinking along the lines of Diablo, min-maxing, until there is no thrill, mystery or uncertainty left.

    Prot. From Normal Missiles is actually very good in early BG2 if you have all of SCS installed, because +1 arrows are Masterwork = Non-magical but they give +1 to THAC0/Damage, and it removes all arrows from random containers and places (it makes the game harder. You are still ok with the arrows enemies drop so you don't have to worry). Also, there's no need to min-max nor anything to win: you can reload until you win, because your rolls were better (luck) or because you're changed your strategy. Min-maxing just makes winning easier.
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    That's the thing - the idea of Winning. I didn't think about Winning once with the original BG. But now that there are worked-out tactics and this legacy of BG2 imposed backwards on BG1 - and do they have Breach and such now for Enhanced Icewind Dale too, I wonder? - now that we have them, additions to, for example, the spell arsenal are obviously going to upset the "balance." The balance being what Stratagems did to make loose and too-easy fighting harder. That's the balance now. So people will have expectations.

    Personally I have no trouble with a fighting system that only occasionally forces me to reload once, very rarely twice. I'm fine with party members getting beat up but everyone surviving or maybe some one kicking the bucket. If I have to think about tactics and spell selection somewhat for a fight, that's challenging enough for me. A regular encounter, to my mind, should be more diverting than dangerous for the characters. This is how it is with pen-and-paper, by default, and I think the original BG was right to take that road too. So something like the original Mirror Image or the original Sleep don't seem overpowered to me. I play this game to enjoy myself, not sweat and swear. But I can't speak for everyone.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    You know, I actually never liked the defense/specialized dispel system implemented in BG as well. I'd rather have a simpler system that was faster in combat and did not force me to memorize multiple spells...

    Maybe it could all be simplified to dispel magic and an improved dispel magic version...
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    edited July 2016
    More like Remove Magic. Dispel Magic is a pain in the... ahem. Well, it's not difficult to make a stronger Remove/Dispel, may be even worth doing, but that would definitely shake the combat balance as it is without actually adding new tactics.

    I could be mistaken about this, but I don't think that Breach, Secret Word and other spells of that sort are actual AD&D spells. They are not from the Player's Handbook or any issues of the Dragon Magazine or game supplement I can think of, though I admit there were many. Most likely, Bioware just made them up when combat in the sequel to BG settled into the damage/avoid damage rut. Fighting in BG2 basically comes down to using magic and weapons to dish out as much damage as you can after you've stripped off enemy defenses. There are just many, many variations and damage types and protections, but the pattern never changes.

    It's all because the games gradually turned into hack-and-slash. Whereas in pen-and-paper it isn't even necessary to kill enemies to get to your quest's goal, the enemies are just obstacles. Most loot is found in stashes and treasuries, not on dead bodies, and without the power to save and reload it doesn't pay to be a homicidal maniac. Besides, you get the XP for defeating, overcoming, not killing. So if you solidly outwit Smaug to fly away and never bother Lake Town again, you should be entitled to Brand's whole XP award, maybe even a smarts bonus.

    Oh yes, I could see this being implemented for the Infinity Engine games - when you reduce an opponent to, say, 30% hit points he could cry for mercy and offer to hand over his best item, then walk away. Or just more ways to get rid of opponents without fighting them. Torment, of course, did this, but the other games are much simpler, and those of us who want more out of, among other things, magic keep running into the reality that it's there just to blow people up. This is the expectation that, I think, is the most in need of upsetting. Not just with new spells, but also through quests where you outwit or entrap or talk your way through a situation - and it pays as well or better than fighting.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    chimeric said:

    It's all because the games gradually turned into hack-and-slash. Whereas in pen-and-paper it isn't even necessary to kill enemies to get to your quest's goal, the enemies are just obstacles. Most loot is found in stashes and treasuries, not on dead bodies, and without the power to save and reload it doesn't pay to be a homicidal maniac. Besides, you get the XP for defeating, overcoming, not killing. So if you solidly outwit Smaug to fly away and never bother Lake Town again, you should be entitled to Brand's whole XP award, maybe even a smarts bonus.

    Oh yes, I could see this being implemented for the Infinity Engine games - when you reduce an opponent to, say, 30% hit points he could cry for mercy and offer to hand over his best item, then walk away. Or just more ways to get rid of opponents without fighting them. Torment, of course, did this, but the other games are much simpler, and those of us who want more out of, among other things, magic keep running into the reality that it's there just to blow people up. This is the expectation that, I think, is the most in need of upsetting. Not just with new spells, but also through quests where you outwit or entrap or talk your way through a situation - and it pays as well or better than fighting.

    That's kind of a bum rap. Not much killing is required in the BG games, even to complete optional quests. To illustrate, consider the SoA class quests. Every stronghold can be obtained with a single fight to the death.

    Fighter: TorGal
    Paladin: Disguised knights
    Ranger: Shadow Altar and Shade Lord
    Cleric: Unseeing Eye
    Druid: Faldorn
    Mage: Demon
    Thief: Mae'Var
    Bard: Warden
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    What on Earth are you talking about? Where are you going to get XP and items and how are you going to complete 80% of quests without killing?
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    There's a lot of quest XP and XP from traps, locks, and learning spells. Many great items are in stores, in containers, or can be pickpocketed. Most quests require a little bit of killing, but usually not very much. If you're curious about specific quests, I can outline minimally violent ways to complete them.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,321
    edited July 2016
    I agree that not much killing is needed in the BG games. If you like the idea of minimal violence you can try completing BG1 without killing anything yourself (a few deaths are necessary by other means). Up to the final battle you can avoid getting any XP, but Sarevok's death gives you XP whether you cause it or not (which I found distinctly annoying).
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    I'm sorry, I'm laughing. :lol: How are you going to kill Sarevok unless you've beefed up to level 9? Supposing you could even get to him through the Nashkel Mines, the Bandit Camp, Cloakwood, the Cloakwood Mine and all the other cities, towers and catacombs you need to plow through.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    I mean, there are many ways to kill Sarevok at low level. Here's a super easy one:

    1) Drink two Potions of Magic Shielding.
    2) Talk to Sarevok from near the symbol of Bhaal.
    3) Drink a Potion of Invisibility.
    4) Set off the symbol's traps until he dies.

    But again, all sorts of ways. Backstabbing a few times works great, too. It's really not difficult to get through the game only killing Mulahey, Davaeorn, and Sarevok. Hack-and-slash is not mandatory.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,321
    edited July 2016
    chimeric said:

    I'm sorry, I'm laughing. :lol: How are you going to kill Sarevok unless you've beefed up to level 9? Supposing you could even get to him through the Nashkel Mines, the Bandit Camp, Cloakwood, the Cloakwood Mine and all the other cities, towers and catacombs you need to plow through.

    There's very little you need to plow through (as opposed to sneaking through):
    - Mulahey needs to die, but you can charm him and get him to attack a few kobolds.
    - you can just sneak through the Bandit Camp and grab the letters before sneaking through the Cloakwood.
    - sneak down to Davaeorn and get him to attack you while protected from magic. When area of effect damage occurs to chasing battle horrors drink a potion of invisibility and sit back to watch the show.
    - sneak into Iron Throne.
    - sneak through catacombs.
    - I can't remember if Slythe is pick-pocketable, but he is charmable.
    - leave the dopplegangers at the palace to the Flaming Fist.
    - sneak through the maze and to the temple.
    - Joluv has given you one method for Sarevok to die without you being responsible.
    Hey voila the game is complete and your total kill count is 0 (and up to Sarevok's death your XP was also 0) :)
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    Grond0 said:

    chimeric said:

    I'm sorry, I'm laughing. :lol: How are you going to kill Sarevok unless you've beefed up to level 9? Supposing you could even get to him through the Nashkel Mines, the Bandit Camp, Cloakwood, the Cloakwood Mine and all the other cities, towers and catacombs you need to plow through.

    There's very little you need to plow through (as opposed to sneaking through):
    - Mulahey needs to die, but you can charm him and get him to attack a few kobolds.
    - you can just sneak through the Bandit Camp and grab the letters before sneaking through the Cloakwood.
    - sneak down to Davaeorn and get him to attack you while protected from magic. When area of effect damage occurs to chasing battle horrors drink a potion of invisibility and sit back to watch the show.
    - sneak into Iron Throne.
    - sneak through catacombs.
    - I can't remember if Slythe is pick-pocketable, but he is charmable.
    - leave the dopplegangers at the palace to the Flaming Fist.
    - sneak through the maze and to the temple.
    - Joluv has given you one method for Sarevok to die without you being responsible.
    Hey voila the game is complete and your total kill count is 0 (and up to Sarevok's death your XP was also 0) :)
    For extra cheese, set your HP to 1 and waltz through the Sword Coast in a state of near invulnerability.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    BillyYank said:

    Grond0 said:

    chimeric said:

    I'm sorry, I'm laughing. :lol: How are you going to kill Sarevok unless you've beefed up to level 9? Supposing you could even get to him through the Nashkel Mines, the Bandit Camp, Cloakwood, the Cloakwood Mine and all the other cities, towers and catacombs you need to plow through.

    There's very little you need to plow through (as opposed to sneaking through):
    - Mulahey needs to die, but you can charm him and get him to attack a few kobolds.
    - you can just sneak through the Bandit Camp and grab the letters before sneaking through the Cloakwood.
    - sneak down to Davaeorn and get him to attack you while protected from magic. When area of effect damage occurs to chasing battle horrors drink a potion of invisibility and sit back to watch the show.
    - sneak into Iron Throne.
    - sneak through catacombs.
    - I can't remember if Slythe is pick-pocketable, but he is charmable.
    - leave the dopplegangers at the palace to the Flaming Fist.
    - sneak through the maze and to the temple.
    - Joluv has given you one method for Sarevok to die without you being responsible.
    Hey voila the game is complete and your total kill count is 0 (and up to Sarevok's death your XP was also 0) :)
    For extra cheese, set your HP to 1 and waltz through the Sword Coast in a state of near invulnerability.
    I wouldn't recommend it, since you need to level up to gain more Mage spells/Thief skills (M/T is the recommended class to do this). Also, you gain a LOT of XP just from quests, so you aren't going to go around underlevelled (also, if you solo the game, Quest XP is enough to get to the XP cap IIRC, but to accomplish many quests you have to slaughter people, so I'm not entirely sure about it without killing anyone).
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