It's ok, I wish you 5th edition people all the best. May you play in a world full of laser gatling guns and transgender NPC's that strangely doesn't seek out cursed belts or clerical restoration spells to cure their very difficult situation.
look man, among a number of ridiculous and uninformed things that you've said (which honestly just make you sound like a kid who got his favourite toy stepped on), this (and "oh now transgenders are a thing") takes the cake.
you know that transgenders don't one day just wake up and say "you know what i'm going to be from now on? A BOY!" right? you know what restoration spells do, right? i'm assuming you do. this means that the person was born (for example) a female, got turned male by a spell of some sort, but wishes to be female again (this does not make someone transgender, i'm not going to get into the technicalities but whatever). they then go to the nearest priest and have them RESTORED (so basically, have the horrible horrible affliction removed) to their former self...
now could you please explain how this is relevant?
I'm simply trying to say that being trans is not a problem to be fixed or a disorder that needs to be cured.
And you make that claim based on what exactly? A condition that, in many cases, involves treatment that includes radical hormone therapy and the removal of healthy reproductive organs is not a problem? A condition that results in sky-high suicide rates, ESPECIALLY post transition?
Look, my point is not to paint transgender people as degenerates or deviants or ostracize them but simply extending the homosexual "it's perfectly natural" narrative to transgender makes absolutely no sense. It's not even remotely comparable. The issue is much more complex than that.
And you make that claim based on what exactly? A condition that, in many cases, involves treatment that includes radical hormone therapy and the removal of healthy reproductive organs is not a problem? A condition that results in sky-high suicide rates, ESPECIALLY post transition?
Look, my point is not to paint transgender people as degenerates or deviants or ostracize them but simply extending the homosexual "it's perfectly natural" narrative to transgender makes absolutely no sense. It's not even remotely comparable. The issue is much more complex than that.
Ever think that societal discrimination might be behind those higher rates of suicide and mental health issues, buddy?
I'm simply trying to say that being trans is not a problem to be fixed or a disorder that needs to be cured.
And you make that claim based on what exactly? A condition that, in many cases, involves treatment that includes radical hormone therapy and the removal of healthy reproductive organs is not a problem? A condition that results in sky-high suicide rates, ESPECIALLY post transition?
Look, my point is not to paint transgender people as degenerates or deviants or ostracize them but simply extending the homosexual "it's perfectly natural" narrative to transgender makes absolutely no sense. It's not even remotely comparable. The issue is much more complex than that.
Could not not simply extend the "it's perfectly natural" narrative out of courtesy? The issue is complex of course, but it never hurts to be respectful. Thank you for your thoughts, friend.
Could not not simply extend the "it's perfectly natural" narrative out of courtesy? The issue is complex of course, but it never hurts to be respectful. Thank you for your thoughts, friend.
It's one thing to be curteous in social situations, I agree with that. It's another thing to acknowlege reality when debating complex issues.
When someone enters a fantasy world, they want fights between ogres and elves. dwarves and druegars. humans and dragons. They usually don't want the personal fights of the LGBT, or blacks vs cops, or Arabs vs Americans.
Ed Greenwood implemented the gay people in his world as if they are perfectly normal, and it's the best way to implement it. Bravo Ed. He didn't create any transgender normal npc because nobody wants to play a transgender character anyways, even the real transgender people. Bravo Ed, you truly understand the point of view of everything and everyone.
Then came along the 2010 social justice warrior movement. GJ bro. Why don't you guys create a modern world with all the "real" issues and leave our fantasy world with dragons and elves alone.
I am supportive of inclusiveness of immersion, love my own and would probably be viewed of liberally minded and do pay mind to the gaming world and narrative devices.
BioWare, creator of BG is legendary and seminal developer because they have been innovative and inclusive.
I mean, one has to start from somewhere.
Was sir Ano romance the best ever, and did female CHAR have any choice of suitors? I've fondness of it, because it was the first I played, and Ano has quite a good background story to explain how insufferable he is to begin with, but arguably romance content for female protagonists have come a long, long way.
My point: one has to start from somewhere. Even if execution first time around is not perfect, I laud Beamdog for the intent.
You can fight dragons and elves and dwarves feel free to do so! The game has a lot more to offer than this LGBT line (you need to want to know more 2 times to see it btw). If you just want fights and bad guys, it's all in there too, if you want heroic deeds and vilains, it's all in there too, do you want to explore old dungeons? Guess what it's in the game too.
All these things that I enjoy in fantasy games are here!
Ever think that societal discrimination might be behind those higher rates of suicide and mental health issues, buddy?
Yes, that is the standard argument that some activists regularly invoke to handwave away this inconvenient problem. Invoking outside factors such as rejection by friends and family or societal discrimination is the only "allowed" explanation. The suggestion that transitioning and sex change operations might not be the silver bullet for all, or even the majority, of trans people is VERBOTEN and aggressively suppressed by some trans activists and their allies in the medical-industrial complex. Discussing the very real issue of sex change regret is massively discouraged within the activism.
Ever think that societal discrimination might be behind those higher rates of suicide and mental health issues, buddy?
Yes, that is the standard argument that some activists regularly invoke to handwave away this inconvenient problem. Invoking outside factors such as rejection by friends and family or societal discrimination is the only "allowed" explanation. The suggestion that transitioning and sex change operations might not be the silver bullet for all, or even the majority, of trans people is VERBOTEN and aggressively suppressed by some trans activists and their allies in the medical-industrial complex. Discussing the very real issue of sex change regret is massively discouraged within the activism.
My friend you are making some interesting points but I think maybe this is not the place for such an in depth debate on these matters and maybe we are straying too far from the topic in relation to Baldur's Gate. I appreciate your contributions all the same of course.
My friend you are making some interesting points but I think maybe this is not the place for such an in depth debate on these matters and maybe we are straying too far from the topic in relation to Baldur's Gate. I appreciate your contributions all the same of course.
The world of DnD is the ideal world that a gay or lesbian would picture.
i'm going to assume you're not gay or a lesbian. if so, good for you. if not, thanks alot for telling me what my ideal world would look like.
What? 42 years ago, apparently, nobody ever introduced any actual transgender NPC. Now, finally, after 42 years of dungeon and dragon, we absolutely must have transgender NPC's? Yes, these "movements" change one or two things at a time. What's so wrong about my quote?
Yes, DnD is the ideal world for a gay or lesbian, because nobody blinks an eyes at gay people in DnD, as opposed in real life where it's still a "problem", to some people. What's so wrong about my quote? Is a world where gay people struggle better than a world where they do not struggle?
Once again, people enter fantasy worlds to escape reality. People want elves fighting orcs, humans fighting dragons and such. We don't want modern day sexual revolutions in fantasy medieval worlds. We as in everyone that isn't a social justice warrior.
You are actually wrong. You shouldnt speak on behalf of all transgender people. I am a trans and I am even currently playing as a character that appears like a female without developed breasts (with 20 charisma), that is transgender, and I think is awesome to see representation, I dont particularly feel represented by typical females.
A few facts are relevant here, but have not yet been mentioned in this thread:
1. Unlike many RPG characters, Mizhena doesn't tell you her life story unprompted. It has long been standard for RPG characters across games to tell the player about their past (including very intimate details), and often they do so without being asked. But Mizhena only tells you she was born a boy if you ask.
2. The entirety--literally the entirety--of Mizhena's dialog on her identity is contained within this one single screenshot.
That is all that she ever says about the matter. Notice that the player is not required to support Mizhena or agree with her; the third response lets you just walk away.
It is true, as some of her critics say, that you do not have the option of criticizing her, but then, it's not very common for the player to be able to mock or criticize NPCs in general. A notable exception is Anomen, whom you can taunt right off the bat. Most characters (including the likes of Noober, who long predates Beamdog) are impossible to criticize in dialog, no matter how much the player may want to. Mizhena is standard in that respect.
3. According to the game files, Mizhena does not wear a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity.
4. According to the game files, Mizhena is coded as female. This is especially notable because there are several alternative genders in the Infinity Engine, including "Neither" and "Both." Either of those could be interpreted as transgender, but Mizhena is neither of them. So Mizhena is technically 100% female. We may speculate on the "how," but she's coded exactly the same as Jaheira and Viconia.
5. Although some people maintain there is a difference between sex and gender, claiming that sex is biological and gender is psychological/mental/just your identity, the Infinity Engine does not have any such distinction. The two are identical in-game: the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity changes your gender (there is no category of "sex" in the game), and according to the description, this means your biology as well. So Mizhena is biologically female as well, if only because of an engine limitation.
Might sound stupid and coming from an uneducated position, i think you could make sort of trans characters since the original BG, you could create a female (or male char) and put a voice set from the other gender: ie. Female with Male voice set, this would mean it was as someone in this post said, male soul in a female body, you COULD roleplay as a transgender, afterall its all about imagination, you play it as you like it. Also as something to add at some point in BG 2 Edwin gets turned into a female and you could play all the game with Edwina (as he gets called at some point).
Tagging a @friend who might have something to contribute.
thanks for the @ but tbh I'm not sure how useful it would be to reply to a thread from April that was finished back then that was thread necro'd by an account with one post who calls themselves "a trans" and makes what seems like a snide comment with the female without developed breasts with 20 Charisma comment...seems like a troll to me, a trans woman who has never met a trans woman who would call herself "a trans"...
You know that feeling when a sight or a sound reminds you of a memory you havn't thought about for a very long time, and you momentarily look back with the detachment of time and wonder what on earth was going on and how it all seems so long ago now and so strange and so unimportant too, and then the moment passes, and you happily forget about it and get on with what your doing.
Not unimportant to me since I am about to buy and play SoD for the first time now. Hopefully if Baldur's gate 3 ever comes out, Beamdog will put a lot more effort into their "diverse" characters.
On a side note thought Hexxat was much worse than Mizhena. An evil, ancient, vampiric, lesbian, exotic racial, terrifying, immortal, thief was just too much for me to handle...
Comments
you know that transgenders don't one day just wake up and say "you know what i'm going to be from now on? A BOY!" right?
you know what restoration spells do, right? i'm assuming you do. this means that the person was born (for example) a female, got turned male by a spell of some sort, but wishes to be female again (this does not make someone transgender, i'm not going to get into the technicalities but whatever). they then go to the nearest priest and have them RESTORED (so basically, have the horrible horrible affliction removed) to their former self...
now could you please explain how this is relevant?
EDIT: i'm going to assume you're not gay or a lesbian. if so, good for you. if not, thanks alot for telling me what my ideal world would look like.
Look, my point is not to paint transgender people as degenerates or deviants or ostracize them but simply extending the homosexual "it's perfectly natural" narrative to transgender makes absolutely no sense. It's not even remotely comparable. The issue is much more complex than that.
Ed Greenwood implemented the gay people in his world as if they are perfectly normal, and it's the best way to implement it. Bravo Ed. He didn't create any transgender normal npc because nobody wants to play a transgender character anyways, even the real transgender people. Bravo Ed, you truly understand the point of view of everything and everyone.
Then came along the 2010 social justice warrior movement. GJ bro. Why don't you guys create a modern world with all the "real" issues and leave our fantasy world with dragons and elves alone.
BioWare, creator of BG is legendary and seminal developer because they have been innovative and inclusive.
I mean, one has to start from somewhere.
Was sir Ano romance the best ever, and did female CHAR have any choice of suitors? I've fondness of it, because it was the first I played, and Ano has quite a good background story to explain how insufferable he is to begin with, but arguably romance content for female protagonists have come a long, long way.
My point: one has to start from somewhere. Even if execution first time around is not perfect, I laud Beamdog for the intent.
All these things that I enjoy in fantasy games are here!
I'll just leave these articles for you to consider:
http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11/trouble-in-transtopia-murmurs-of-sex-change-regret/
http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/transgender-regret-is-real-even-if-the-media-tell-you-otherwise/
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gender-confused-suicide-rate-ten-times-national-average
Yes, DnD is the ideal world for a gay or lesbian, because nobody blinks an eyes at gay people in DnD, as opposed in real life where it's still a "problem", to some people. What's so wrong about my quote? Is a world where gay people struggle better than a world where they do not struggle?
Once again, people enter fantasy worlds to escape reality. People want elves fighting orcs, humans fighting dragons and such. We don't want modern day sexual revolutions in fantasy medieval worlds. We as in everyone that isn't a social justice warrior.
1. Unlike many RPG characters, Mizhena doesn't tell you her life story unprompted. It has long been standard for RPG characters across games to tell the player about their past (including very intimate details), and often they do so without being asked. But Mizhena only tells you she was born a boy if you ask.
2. The entirety--literally the entirety--of Mizhena's dialog on her identity is contained within this one single screenshot.
That is all that she ever says about the matter. Notice that the player is not required to support Mizhena or agree with her; the third response lets you just walk away.
It is true, as some of her critics say, that you do not have the option of criticizing her, but then, it's not very common for the player to be able to mock or criticize NPCs in general. A notable exception is Anomen, whom you can taunt right off the bat. Most characters (including the likes of Noober, who long predates Beamdog) are impossible to criticize in dialog, no matter how much the player may want to. Mizhena is standard in that respect.
3. According to the game files, Mizhena does not wear a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity.
4. According to the game files, Mizhena is coded as female. This is especially notable because there are several alternative genders in the Infinity Engine, including "Neither" and "Both." Either of those could be interpreted as transgender, but Mizhena is neither of them. So Mizhena is technically 100% female. We may speculate on the "how," but she's coded exactly the same as Jaheira and Viconia.
5. Although some people maintain there is a difference between sex and gender, claiming that sex is biological and gender is psychological/mental/just your identity, the Infinity Engine does not have any such distinction. The two are identical in-game: the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity changes your gender (there is no category of "sex" in the game), and according to the description, this means your biology as well. So Mizhena is biologically female as well, if only because of an engine limitation.
I find that last one very curious.
Also as something to add at some point in BG 2 Edwin gets turned into a female and you could play all the game with Edwina (as he gets called at some point).
this thread might be better left to die honestly
That's me right now, that is!
On a side note thought Hexxat was much worse than Mizhena. An evil, ancient, vampiric, lesbian, exotic racial, terrifying, immortal, thief was just too much for me to handle...