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ranger or fighter cleric, dual or multi?

jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
Hey all

Just a simple poll to test people's preferences on this.

Advantages to multiclass is simplicity and no down time, however I'd probably just CLUA a fighter/ ranger to 7 before dual classing and beginning the game as a lvl 1 cleric. I don't care about warrior hla's, when comparing to cleric ones.

Advantages to the dual class would be more cleric levels, which are arguably better than levels in any warrior type. It's also pretty nice to just follow the one class after dualing, rather than splitting xp for slower levels all round.

Cheers

  1. ranger or fighter cleric, dual or multi?37 votes
    1. multiclass
      67.57%
    2. dual class
      32.43%
«13

Comments

  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    As a general rule, with the exception of the Cleric/Mage, Dual Classing is more powerful as you can add in a starting kit which could really change the power of the the combination.

    That said, I do prefer the idea of Multiclassing, leveling up as both classes at the same time, plus you can really get some good THAC0 that way, which can have Draw Upon Holy Might thrown on top of.

    Though I would go pure cleric. Class purist and all.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    I like the idea of pure classes too, but you just gain so much from 7 levels of a warrior class....
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    Yeah, I used to religiously believe in dual-classing, but after playing around with a dualed Fighter-mage for a long time I finally noticed that one dualed at level 7 just won't have the necessary Thaco to hit really tough enemies like dragons. If you don't keep progressing in your fighter class, boss monsters just won't be easy to hit.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Yeah I guess I'd see myself as a late game caster, but with enough melee to take out lesser hordes. Do dual classes still get to go to 5 * on proficiencies? If so that's a real nice bonus now that grand mastery is un-nerfed.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028

    I like the idea of pure classes too, but you just gain so much from 7 levels of a warrior class....

    Yeah, that's the kind of logic I always fought against in 3.X games. Like Neverwinter Nights and the 1 Paladin / X Sorcerer combo, or all the "don't play a pure fighter" mantras.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    It'd make sense to get some martial training if planning to become a wandering priest :)
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    But ranger/ cleric is such a sexy multi too
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Dual class from fighter to cleric at lvl 13 gets 5 pips in one weapon + 2 PiPs in a fighting style and one to spare (or 3 in dual wield), +1 APR and +1 APR for whichever weapon you picked (preferably a blunt weapon when you dual to cleric). Ranger to Cleric or cleric multiclassed with fighter only get 2 PiPs and thus miss out on an extra +2 THAC0 and 0,5 APR. Also, for multiclassed fighter / clerics HP bonuses from fighter stops at lvl 10 and extra APR at lvl 13 (they also get slightly less HP, as dual fighters get D10 for every level 1-10, but multi D9). There is only a 6 THAC0 difference between multiclass fi... oh no, wait! It is actually only a 4 THACO difference, as, as already mentioned, you get another -2 from 3-5 PiPs in your prefered weapon!!!

    The biggest downside to dual is that you miss out on fighter HLA:s and that lvl 13 fighter is 1,250,000 XP, and getting your levels back after you multi takes another 1,350,000 XP for 14 levels clerics - basically, you wont be enjoying no dual class synergy goodness (cept for HP) til the end of SoA or even not until start of ToB!!!

    Then again, dual allows you to pick kit. But then again again, multi allows halforc for str or dwarf for extra saving throws.

    Still, in my book, dual wins over multi when it comes to fighter clerics, since I think fighter / cleric multi is redundant past level 13, as I just explained. 4 extra THACO... oh wait! Kit with berserker, now the difference is down to 2 extra THACO for multi.

    Multi/dual fighter/mage or fighter/thief, or cleric/mage or cleric/thief all makes much more sense in my book - fighter high HP, high BAB, and the ability to use armor all overlap with cleric, while the fighters most fun ability to use any kind of weapons is wasted on the cleric. The only real benefit with fighter/clerics is 2 extra APR!
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    Yeah, I used to religiously believe in dual-classing, but after playing around with a dualed Fighter-mage for a long time I finally noticed that one dualed at level 7 just won't have the necessary Thaco to hit really tough enemies like dragons. If you don't keep progressing in your fighter class, boss monsters just won't be easy to hit.

    More of a problem for F>M duals than F>C duals thanks to Holy Power, a level 4 priest spell that lets you use the Fighter THACO table. (And, crucially, doesn't lock you out of spellcasting like Tenser's does.)
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    Yeah I guess I'd see myself as a late game caster, but with enough melee to take out lesser hordes. Do dual classes still get to go to 5 * on proficiencies? If so that's a real nice bonus now that grand mastery is un-nerfed.

    They do, and it is. Though if you're dualing before level 13 to avoid that atrocious downtime, then the biggest advantage of Grandmastery, (the extra 0.5 APR), is offset by the fact that you're not getting your level 13 bonus APR, too.

    F(7)>C duals and F/C multis both cap out at 2.5 APR. You need a F(13)>C dual if you want to get all the way to 3.0 APR, which means lots of downtime and delayed HLAs.

    (Or alternately you can do one of the wonky C>F duals. My aforementioned C(11)>F dual unlocks ~one million XP faster than a F(13)>C dual, gets fighter HLAs and Boon of Lathander, and still hits 3.0 APR with both Grandmastery and the fighter level 13 bonus. It also makes the best slinger in the game-- no, really-- provided you're not shy about prebuffing.)
  • NoobaccaNoobacca Member Posts: 139
    Ranger/clerics are super fun, definitely in my top 3 classes to play.

    I prefer a dual classed character only due to the fact that I'm super impatient and hate leveling multiclasses especially in late SoA/ToB. Plus as @JumboWheat01 mentioned, if you start with a kit you can get some interesting combo's. One of my favourite PC's was a priest of talos > fighter. He'd charge in after some minor buffing and destroy things. Was lots of fun!
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I do not like dual-classing Rangers, because they already lack THE big reason for dual-classing from a Fighter, which is Grand Mastery. Dualing still allows you to essentially weight the XP distribution across the two classes, but honestly that alone to me is not worth losing Fighter HLAs from the Ranger to compensate for the lower APR due to lack of GM.

    With Fighters, it's pretty much the other way round. I don't like multiclassing Fighters, because their benefits peak fairly early. Now of course multiclass isn't BAD by any stretch, but considering that a lvl 9 fighter already gets GM, an extra 1/2 APR, maximum hit dice, and access to kit bonuses, to me that outweighs a bit more XP/THAC0 and the Fighter HLAs you'd get from multiclass.

    As always, of course, the choice ultimately must be made according to individual setup and preferences.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Skatan said:

    F/Cs can be dwarves.

    End of discussion.

    Close thread.

    Haha, if only you'd made first post!

    Think I'm gonna role a straight fighter with qstaff and hammer profs, then dual at 7 or 9 if I cba.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Only problem is that 17 wisdom requirement... I deffo struggle to role-play with that lol
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited April 2017

    Only problem is that 17 wisdom requirement... I deffo struggle to role-play with that lol

    Its true, its true! Wis is a dump stat, normally. How are you supposed to get 18 dex 18 str and 18 con 9 int 18 wis AND 18 cha (because who would NOT want to be the leader of their own group?) legit? Thats a roll of 99! You need to roll like 1 h for that!

    Which is why God invented EE keeper. Any roll you have ever rolled previously is fine, because you know you can do it - you dont need to prove it a second time!
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    Problem is that Ranger/Cleric is better as a multi, while fighter/cleric works well as a dual. Poll does not let me pick different answers so, so I choose neither :)
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    DrakeICN said:

    Only problem is that 17 wisdom requirement... I deffo struggle to role-play with that lol

    Its true, its true! Wis is a dump stat, normally. How are you supposed to get 18 dex 18 str and 18 con 9 int 18 wis AND 18 cha (because who would NOT want to be the leader of their own group?) legit? Thats a roll of 99! You need to roll like 1 h for that!

    Which is why God invented EE keeper. Any roll you have ever rolled previously is fine, because you know you can do it - you dont need to prove it a second time!
    It's more the fact that I don't consider myself all that wise lol

    Ctrl 8 whilst in the abilities screen on character screen gives you a maxed roll btw
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354

    Ctrl 8 whilst in the abilities screen on character screen gives you a maxed roll btw

    This advice always fooled me, until I realized that it doesn't work unless the console is enabled in your config file. As I don't play with debug/cheat-mode enabled most of the time, it took me quite a while to discover that this actually worked ;)

    I now have one crazy-started monk, just to play around with, but for any PC going through BG first, you should leave with 19s on any stat you care about for your class, if you are happy re-assigning points at character generation, so all-18s is overkill, and rarely noticeable in practice after the first game (mostly, once you read the Str tome).
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623

    Ctrl 8 whilst in the abilities screen on character screen gives you a maxed roll btw

    During the fight with Sarevok or Irenicus, pressing alt F4 will heal all your characters, as if a mass raise dead spell was just cast. It's a great tip if you ever end up in a tight spot during the boss fights.
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 905

    Only problem is that 17 wisdom requirement... I deffo struggle to role-play with that lol

    If you're starting in BG1 you can always use the Tomes, so you can settle for a 14 wisdom. Still, you're looking at a tough roll if doing it by the book.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    After all this I've gone and rolled a priest of Lathander :D
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    edited April 2017
    @DrakeICN - does that tip apply only to Windows versions of the game?
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 183
    This is a great thread full of useful info.

    One thing to consider is that multiclasses almost never get any HLAs to begin with. A Ranger/Cleric multi will get 4 Ranger HLAs and 4 Cleric HLAs before hitting the 8m XP cap. A Ranger-Cleric dualed at level 13 will get 15 Cleric HLAs.

    It might not matter much in this particular case because Cleric HLAs are pretty meh, but in case of dualing to a Thief or Mage who get great HLAs it would be something to consider.
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 183
    SomeSort said:

    You've got it backwards. Multiclasses start getting HLAs at 3m *combined* experience, (e.g. 1.5m experience in each class assuming you're a 2-class multi).

    Well then. Remind me again, why would I ever dual class. Or better - why would I ever single class at all?

    I'm exaggerating, but still. In case of a F/M/T, that means the Fighter class will get first HLA at level 13. Level 13! That's only 2/3 towards unlocking the class' full potential.

    That's not really a High Level Ability anymore, is it...
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623

    SomeSort said:

    You've got it backwards. Multiclasses start getting HLAs at 3m *combined* experience, (e.g. 1.5m experience in each class assuming you're a 2-class multi).

    Well then. Remind me again, why would I ever dual class. Or better - why would I ever single class at all?

    I'm exaggerating, but still. In case of a F/M/T, that means the Fighter class will get first HLA at level 13. Level 13! That's only 2/3 towards unlocking the class' full potential.

    That's not really a High Level Ability anymore, is it...
    Jester, blade, shadowdancer, swashbuckler, wild mage, dragon disciple, shapeshifter, inquisistor, barbarian, kensai...

    Plenty of reasons to go single or dual!

    P.S. Assasins, bounty hunters and avengers are overrated!!!
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 183
    Hmmm, so I'm thinking about it and it feels to me that when dualing from a Fighter, you should do it later, not sooner.

    At least in the case of Berserker/Cleric(that I really, really want to make work)

    If you dual at 13, you lose 8 ThAC0 and two tiers of saves. But you can hold out until level 17 for the best saves(and 4 more ThAC0) or until level 21 for everything that Fighter class can get you - that isn't a HLA.

    Since Holy Power gives you a Fighter ThAC0 anyway, delaying until 21 is hardly necessary, but let's consider both scenarios:

    Fighter 17/Cleric 33 gives you 12 Cleric HLAs. You lose two 7th level Cleric spell slots compared to max level Cleric.

    Fighter 21/Cleric 29 gives you 8 Cleric HLAs. You lose three 7th level Cleric spell slots.

    The difference between Fighter 17 and Fighter 21 is one million XP... so it's almost definitely not worth holding out for that long, especially since again, you can fix your ThAC0 with Holy Power. Hell, even if you couldn't do it, 4 ThAC0 isn't end of the world with Grandmastery and 25 Strength.

    Now, 8 or 12 HLAs does not seem like much - hovewer all Cleric HLAs can only be taken once anyway! And there are a total of 8 of them. So Clerics simply do not benefit from having more than 8 HLAs. That's actually a point in favor of going Fighter 21.

    I also think people undervalue some Cleric HLAs(like Energy Blades which is basically a Cleric version of Whirlwind and also gives you Improved Haste effect, or Storm of Vengeance which is basically AoE guaranteed cast interrupt for 3 rounds to anything that is not immune to cast interruptions. And Implosion is just good in general)
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Holy power have a casting time of six and reduce your str to 18/00. It lasts 20 rounds at lvl 20 (2 turns), and can be dispelled.

    It is not a perfect replacement for natural THAC0, no it is not.
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