I really think that any Ravenloft story should start outside of Ravenloft with the player being captured by the Mists.
Why?
Both previous CRPGs do that - it's obvious an predictable. It limits protagonist motivation to the most basic level - survive and escape. It denies the protagonist a personal connection to what is going on - a key feature of a gothic story.
Because knowing the unknown and discovering the horrors of Ravenloft is the big plus for that scenario.
But to the players, it isn't actually any more unknown than the Forgotten Realms.
And it's not what gothic horror is about anyway.
The first time a skeleton missed and arrow and another skeleton came from the ground where it landed my head almost exploded.
Meh, could happen anywhere, isn't specific to Ravenloft.
No, couldn't happen anywhere. This skeleton archer is from the Creatures of Darkness.
But the list goes on: the first time I saw a vampire in bright daylight. The time my party had to face a virus. Getting kicked in the behind from a brain inside a jar.
I just love Ravenloft.
Your DM doesn"t lift monsters from different settings? There are brains in jars in BG2.
But all the things you like about Ravenloft seem to stem from silly horror rather than gothic horror. Have you ever read a gothic novel?
Then beamdog will disappoint quite few its members.
Regardless of what they release they Wil disappoint quite a few customers.
Everyone has thier own wish list from BG3 to IWD2 to not BG related from 2e rules to 5e rules that regardless of what they release, someone will not be getting what they want.
They won't be able to please everyone on announcement but they'll win majority of them back with a highly polished, fun experience with an epic story. No pressure.
Ravenloft could be portrayed as straight slasher horror, but it shines brightest (ha) with more gothic elements. It was interesting to see how each author used the stiffling, overwhelming evil to taint things.
A very Planescapey Lodestone Paladin would be an interesting MC, emphasizing of course how you are tainted literally by warring vs Evil. Every ghoul has his own tragedy after all, to say nothing of a Dark Lord. It would be a disapointment to play a Ravenloft game like IWD, though I enjoyed both.
I really think that any Ravenloft story should start outside of Ravenloft with the player being captured by the Mists.
Why?
Both previous CRPGs do that - it's obvious an predictable. It limits protagonist motivation to the most basic level - survive and escape. It denies the protagonist a personal connection to what is going on - a key feature of a gothic story.
Because knowing the unknown and discovering the horrors of Ravenloft is the big plus for that scenario.
But to the players, it isn't actually any more unknown than the Forgotten Realms.
And it's not what gothic horror is about anyway.
The first time a skeleton missed and arrow and another skeleton came from the ground where it landed my head almost exploded.
Meh, could happen anywhere, isn't specific to Ravenloft.
No, couldn't happen anywhere. This skeleton archer is from the Creatures of Darkness.
But the list goes on: the first time I saw a vampire in bright daylight. The time my party had to face a virus. Getting kicked in the behind from a brain inside a jar.
I just love Ravenloft.
Your DM doesn't lift monsters from different settings? There are brains in jars in BG2.
But all the things you like about Ravenloft seem to stem from silly horror rather than gothic horror. Have you ever read a gothic novel?
Yes, I did. My love for Ravenloft started with my love for Lovecraft.
But my DM is more an "IWD-style" guy, let's put it that way. He had his moments - and every time he followed a more storytelling approach was amazing - but most of my surprise came from seeing things work differently in Ravenloft.
About the brain jar specifically - it was the first time ever I saw one and was not a common brain jar: it was the brain jar from the psionic of the group that had disappeared two game sessions ago.
Horror check for everyone!
And what should we do? Try to help him somehow? Kill him for good? The dilemma was the hardest part of the fight TBH. What would be the right thing to do? Destroying the brain would give us a Power Check? How would the Mists judge us?
Ravenloft, the most boring and most static D&D setting ever. Yeesh, and y'all take it so seriously.
Can we get some Greyhawk up in here?!
Yeah, because the all-around-Elminster setting is thrilling.
And about Greyhawk this can't be serious. Next you'll be asking for a Mystara game.
Are you confusing Forgotten Realms with Greyhawk. Obviously, you are... Elminster is in? Oh, wait... And there are no wizards who stick around for sex with the goddess of magic in Greyhawk. Weird.
And don't be a silly dunce. Greyhawk is a way better setting than Ravenloft or FR. By leaps and bounds.
Yes, I did. My love for Ravenloft started with my love for Lovecraft.
Not everyone would class Lovecraft as Gothic, "Lovecraftian" is often considered it's own Subgenre of gothic.
I'm talking about The Castle of Otranto, The Pit and the Pendulum, Dracula, Gormanghast, Rebbecca - note that not all gothic novels are horror. (Some would add Frankenstein to the list, but not everyone agrees that is gothic - it's sometimes classed as Science Fiction).
Characteristics of a gothic novel:
1. Castle setting. 2. An atmosphere of mystery. 3. prophecies, portents, visions and curses. 4. apparently supernatural events. 5. heightened levels of emotion. 6. An atmosphere of melancholy. 7. sexual subtext.
But my DM is more an "IWD-style" guy, let's put it that way. He had his moments - and every time he followed a more storytelling approach was amazing - but most of my surprise came from seeing things work differently in Ravenloft.
About the brain jar specifically - it was the first time ever I saw one and was not a common brain jar: it was the brain jar from the psionic of the group that had disappeared two game sessions ago.
Horror check for everyone!
And what should we do? Try to help him somehow? Kill him for good? The dilemma was the hardest part of the fight TBH. What would be the right thing to do? Destroying the brain would give us a Power Check? How would the Mists judge us?
God, I love Ravenloft.
None of that stuff requires Ravenloft though, I put my players through a horror themed dungeon last month, and that was in Cormyr.
Ravenloft, the most boring and most static D&D setting ever. Yeesh, and y'all take it so seriously.
Can we get some Greyhawk up in here?!
Yeah, because the all-around-Elminster setting is thrilling.
And about Greyhawk this can't be serious. Next you'll be asking for a Mystara game.
Are you confusing Forgotten Realms with Greyhawk. Obviously, you are... Elminster is in? Oh, wait... And there are no wizards who stick around for sex with the goddess of magic in Greyhawk. Weird.
And don't be a silly dunce. Greyhawk is a way better setting than Ravenloft or FR. By leaps and bounds.
I would love if the staff did something somewhere that was not sword coast. I don't read the books and my only exposure has been through the games. Any new place would be exciting for me as a player, although I would take another icewind dale, baldurs gate or planscape spinoff any day.
Ravenloft sounds pretty cool, but helln at this point, I would take even more black pit spinoffs. Just something...
What I am saying is that I have a problem and I need a fix.
I would love if the staff did something somewhere that was not sword coast. I don't read the books and my only exposure has been through the games. Any new place would be exciting for me as a player, although I would take another icewind dale, baldurs gate or planscape spinoff any day.
Ravenloft sounds pretty cool, but helln at this point, I would take even more black pit spinoffs. Just something...
What I am saying is that I have a problem and I need a fix.
This post from @Doubledimas was made prior to Planescape: Torment EE was announced and released and everyone figured it was just a hint that PST:EE was the next game being released due to the Bloodwar books having Planescape in front of them.
HOWEVER
If they didn't add any new writing to PST, why did they have a question? Was it a Red Herring thrown out by Daigle to allow us to connect the dots, if so, why mention Gaider?
Mike Mearls is the co-creator of 5e D&D and wrote the 4th edition Players Handbook and Monster Manual (we won't hold his 4th edition work against him) as well. It is alleged (just quickly reading online) that during the 4th edition of D&D the Blood War fell into an Cold War atmosphere (but only for The Forgotten Realms), but the state of the war is a mystery in 5e.
Could this tweet give a hint that part of the new game takes place in the lower planes among the Devils and Demons? Could the actual war be the main story line?
From the wiki (and in turn from Manual of the Planes)
Despite millennia after millennia of constant strife, no side has yet been able to gain a definitive, permanent advantage over the other. Despite their vast differences, the tanar'ri and the baatezu are surprisingly balanced combatants on the fields of the Blood War. The chaotic denizens of the Abyss, while far more numerous than the devils, are, true to their alignment, constantly warring amongst themselves. They can contest the might of the Nine Hells only through sheer individual power, and their seemingly limitless, if unorganized and uncoordinated supply of warriors. The baatezu, on the other hand, deploy smaller numbers onto the field, but their warriors are regimented, well-trained and well-disciplined, all the while making incredible use of their generals' ruthless strategies. This violent balance could keep the Blood War fueled for an indefinite period of time.
One thing, however, is certain: were one side able to eliminate all opposition, and thus gain control over the entirety of the Lower Planes, the multiverse as a whole would be in great danger. With no enemies left in the Lower Planes, the fiendish rulers could then turn their attentions towards other worlds and planes, and it is likely that no force could hope to stop them. Even the celestial beings of the Upper Planes, formidable as they are, could face destruction at the hands of the tanar'ri or the baatezu, weighed down as their alignments demand by the needs of good and justice—the fiends, having no such compunctions or scruples, could easily use the celestials' morality against them. In the past, agents of the heavenly races have even planted powerful weapons or artifacts among the ranks of the demons or the devils. This appears to be a reliable indicator that even the beings of the Upper Planes do not want the war to end. There is a prophecy that says that the Blood War will end when the Crawling City, a city on the plane of Gehenna that is home to millions of Yugoloths, directly enters the Blood War.
Aftermath 4th Edition's Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide states that Asmodeus killed the power Azuth and consumed his divine essence. He then proceeded to use this power to push the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos, thus ending the Blood War with the victory of the Devils (Law). Some question this, though, saying that Asmodeus didn't win the war, but rather ran from it, since the Demons weren't destroyed or enslaved, just "pushed out of the way". Regardless, this explanation only applies to the Forgotten Realms setting; the default 4th edition books are vague as to the Blood War's status, and as a Forgotten Realms deity, Azuth was not present in these.
Yes, I did. My love for Ravenloft started with my love for Lovecraft.
Not everyone would class Lovecraft as Gothic, "Lovecraftian" is often considered it's own Subgenre of gothic.
I'm talking about The Castle of Otranto, The Pit and the Pendulum, Dracula, Gormanghast, Rebbecca - note that not all gothic novels are horror. (Some would add Frankenstein to the list, but not everyone agrees that is gothic - it's sometimes classed as Science Fiction).
Characteristics of a gothic novel:
1. Castle setting. 2. An atmosphere of mystery. 3. prophecies, portents, visions and curses. 4. apparently supernatural events. 5. heightened levels of emotion. 6. An atmosphere of melancholy. 7. sexual subtext.
But my DM is more an "IWD-style" guy, let's put it that way. He had his moments - and every time he followed a more storytelling approach was amazing - but most of my surprise came from seeing things work differently in Ravenloft.
About the brain jar specifically - it was the first time ever I saw one and was not a common brain jar: it was the brain jar from the psionic of the group that had disappeared two game sessions ago.
Horror check for everyone!
And what should we do? Try to help him somehow? Kill him for good? The dilemma was the hardest part of the fight TBH. What would be the right thing to do? Destroying the brain would give us a Power Check? How would the Mists judge us?
God, I love Ravenloft.
None of that stuff requires Ravenloft though, I put my players through a horror themed dungeon last month, and that was in Cormyr.
We had a topic? No, but seriously, the Blood War ending only worked because WotC decided that FR was the only setting they needed to support for 3 whole freakin' editions!
We had a topic? No, but seriously, the Blood War ending only worked because WotC decided that FR was the only setting they needed to support for 3 whole freakin' editions!
I felt that they where trying to escape from the FR, actually. The 3rd edition rules launched with Greyhawk as the default setting. But they couldn't think of anything interesting to do with it, so didn't publish any Greyhawk supplements. They tried to make Eberron the default setting, by adding some steampunk, but that didn't really take off. Then 4th edition tried to trash the FR. By the time 5e came out they had given up and went "f-it, have the bleedin FR then!"
It's probably, at least in part, Baldur's Gate's fault. Hence the focus on the Sword Coast region.
We had a topic? No, but seriously, the Blood War ending only worked because WotC decided that FR was the only setting they needed to support for 3 whole freakin' editions!
Yes there was a topic, such as did you know, there was talk that the new game maybe coming out on console?
Keeping on with places for a new game in the FRs. What about the Dales? In the beginings of FRs there were a good number of adventures and novels there. And It has a lot of interesting places near: Zethil Keep, Cormyr, Sembia, Cormanthor...
We had a topic? No, but seriously, the Blood War ending only worked because WotC decided that FR was the only setting they needed to support for 3 whole freakin' editions!
Yes there was a topic, such as did you know, there was talk that the new game maybe coming out on console?
I guess the issue is, you could do either a gothic or a cosmic horror-themed infinity engine type game using 5e rules, but how do you flag that up to the customers? No reason you couldn't use FR, apart from people having certain expectations about stories that use that setting, and we have plenty of examples of perfectly decent games failing because they don't quite fit expectations. Ravenloft can serve as a "gothic" flag, I think perhaps Dark Sun or Spelljammer could serve as "cosmic horror" flags.
The other pitfall with Ravenloft is you waste the setting. The protagonists are picked up by the mists, kill a few horror-themed monsters, eventually escape. The end. This pretty much what the previous Ravenloft games did, and where not remotely scary or disturbing, even with the assistance of a limited field of view. Also consider Diablo. Lots of Ravenloft-like fantasy-horror imagery, which is rendered unscary by being reduced to bitesize meaty chunks by a butt-kicking protagonist (RE Howard also had Conan do this to a Lovecraftian horror, as a deliberate dig at the man himself).
Quick plug: Grim Dawn makes a good stab at adding cosmic horror to Diablo gameplay.
I guess the issue is, you could do either a gothic or a cosmic horror-themed infinity engine type game using 5e rules, but how do you flag that up to the customers? No reason you couldn't use FR, apart from people having certain expectations about stories that use that setting, and we have plenty of examples of perfectly decent games failing because they don't quite fit expectations. Ravenloft can serve as a "gothic" flag, I think perhaps Dark Sun or Spelljammer could serve as "cosmic horror" flags.
The other pitfall with Ravenloft is you waste the setting. The protagonists are picked up by the mists, kill a few horror-themed monsters, eventually escape. The end. This pretty much what the previous Ravenloft games did, and where not remotely scary or disturbing, even with the assistance of a limited field of view. Also consider Diablo. Lots of Ravenloft-like fantasy-horror imagery, which is rendered unscary by being reduced to bitesize meaty chunks by a butt-kicking protagonist (RE Howard also had Conan do this to a Lovecraftian horror, as a deliberate dig at the man himself).
Quick plug: Grim Dawn makes a good stab at adding cosmic horror to Diablo gameplay.
Never heard of Grim Dawn, Is It good?
I never saw Conan defeating tentacle Monsters as Howard's jabs towards Lovecraft but i know he did a couple of Cthulhu Mythos stories. I Wish i could get the stories of other Cthulhu Mythos writers like Arthur Bloch and Clark Asthon Smith.
Yes, I can recommend Grim Dawn if you like ARPGs and cosmic horror. It's on Steam.
There is one Conan story in partcular where Howard pastiches Lovecraft in both the name and description of the god Conan turns into calimari. I put it down to a bit of good natured ribbing of a friend. I can't remember the name of the story unfortunately.
Clark Ashton Smith's stories appear to be on Kindle.
Comments
But all the things you like about Ravenloft seem to stem from silly horror rather than gothic horror. Have you ever read a gothic novel?
I do believe, though, that the bits of information that were dropped about the new game way back when included confirming it will be FR.
Everyone has thier own wish list from BG3 to IWD2 to not BG related from 2e rules to 5e rules that regardless of what they release, someone will not be getting what they want.
They won't be able to please everyone on announcement but they'll win majority of them back with a highly polished, fun experience with an epic story. No pressure.
A very Planescapey Lodestone Paladin would be an interesting MC, emphasizing of course how you are tainted literally by warring vs Evil. Every ghoul has his own tragedy after all, to say nothing of a Dark Lord. It would be a disapointment to play a Ravenloft game like IWD, though I enjoyed both.
But all the things you like about Ravenloft seem to stem from silly horror rather than gothic horror. Have you ever read a gothic novel?
Yes, I did. My love for Ravenloft started with my love for Lovecraft.
But my DM is more an "IWD-style" guy, let's put it that way. He had his moments - and every time he followed a more storytelling approach was amazing - but most of my surprise came from seeing things work differently in Ravenloft.
About the brain jar specifically - it was the first time ever I saw one and was not a common brain jar: it was the brain jar from the psionic of the group that had disappeared two game sessions ago.
Horror check for everyone!
And what should we do? Try to help him somehow? Kill him for good? The dilemma was the hardest part of the fight TBH. What would be the right thing to do? Destroying the brain would give us a Power Check? How would the Mists judge us?
God, I love Ravenloft.
And don't be a silly dunce. Greyhawk is a way better setting than Ravenloft or FR. By leaps and bounds.
Not everyone would class Lovecraft as Gothic, "Lovecraftian" is often considered it's own Subgenre of gothic.
I'm talking about The Castle of Otranto, The Pit and the Pendulum, Dracula, Gormanghast, Rebbecca - note that not all gothic novels are horror. (Some would add Frankenstein to the list, but not everyone agrees that is gothic - it's sometimes classed as Science Fiction).
Characteristics of a gothic novel:
1. Castle setting.
2. An atmosphere of mystery.
3. prophecies, portents, visions and curses.
4. apparently supernatural events.
5. heightened levels of emotion.
6. An atmosphere of melancholy.
7. sexual subtext.
None of that stuff requires Ravenloft though, I put my players through a horror themed dungeon last month, and that was in Cormyr.
Chronicles of Mystara: Enhanced Edition?
Ravenloft sounds pretty cool, but helln at this point, I would take even more black pit spinoffs. Just something...
What I am saying is that I have a problem and I need a fix.
Something has been bugging me for a long time: This post from @Doubledimas was made prior to Planescape: Torment EE was announced and released and everyone figured it was just a hint that PST:EE was the next game being released due to the Bloodwar books having Planescape in front of them.
HOWEVER
If they didn't add any new writing to PST, why did they have a question? Was it a Red Herring thrown out by Daigle to allow us to connect the dots, if so, why mention Gaider?
Mike Mearls is the co-creator of 5e D&D and wrote the 4th edition Players Handbook and Monster Manual (we won't hold his 4th edition work against him) as well. It is alleged (just quickly reading online) that during the 4th edition of D&D the Blood War fell into an Cold War atmosphere (but only for The Forgotten Realms), but the state of the war is a mystery in 5e.
Could this tweet give a hint that part of the new game takes place in the lower planes among the Devils and Demons? Could the actual war be the main story line?
From the wiki (and in turn from Manual of the Planes)
One thing, however, is certain: were one side able to eliminate all opposition, and thus gain control over the entirety of the Lower Planes, the multiverse as a whole would be in great danger. With no enemies left in the Lower Planes, the fiendish rulers could then turn their attentions towards other worlds and planes, and it is likely that no force could hope to stop them. Even the celestial beings of the Upper Planes, formidable as they are, could face destruction at the hands of the tanar'ri or the baatezu, weighed down as their alignments demand by the needs of good and justice—the fiends, having no such compunctions or scruples, could easily use the celestials' morality against them. In the past, agents of the heavenly races have even planted powerful weapons or artifacts among the ranks of the demons or the devils. This appears to be a reliable indicator that even the beings of the Upper Planes do not want the war to end.
There is a prophecy that says that the Blood War will end when the Crawling City, a city on the plane of Gehenna that is home to millions of Yugoloths, directly enters the Blood War.
Aftermath
4th Edition's Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide states that Asmodeus killed the power Azuth and consumed his divine essence. He then proceeded to use this power to push the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos, thus ending the Blood War with the victory of the Devils (Law). Some question this, though, saying that Asmodeus didn't win the war, but rather ran from it, since the Demons weren't destroyed or enslaved, just "pushed out of the way". Regardless, this explanation only applies to the Forgotten Realms setting; the default 4th edition books are vague as to the Blood War's status, and as a Forgotten Realms deity, Azuth was not present in these.
Lovecraft's genre Is called Cosmic Horror.
It's probably, at least in part, Baldur's Gate's fault. Hence the focus on the Sword Coast region.
https://whoisology.com/name/archive_13/trent oster/1#registrant
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and some links not mentioned yet:
trentoster.com
trapcraft.com
baldursgate.net
beamdog.net
beamdog.studio
Such as a something not D&D related in Axis and Allies.
or my favourite:
whatthefuckiswrongwithmyinternet.com << think of the potential!
The other pitfall with Ravenloft is you waste the setting. The protagonists are picked up by the mists, kill a few horror-themed monsters, eventually escape. The end. This pretty much what the previous Ravenloft games did, and where not remotely scary or disturbing, even with the assistance of a limited field of view. Also consider Diablo. Lots of Ravenloft-like fantasy-horror imagery, which is rendered unscary by being reduced to bitesize meaty chunks by a butt-kicking protagonist (RE Howard also had Conan do this to a Lovecraftian horror, as a deliberate dig at the man himself).
Quick plug: Grim Dawn makes a good stab at adding cosmic horror to Diablo gameplay.
I never saw Conan defeating tentacle Monsters as Howard's jabs towards Lovecraft but i know he did a couple of Cthulhu Mythos stories. I Wish i could get the stories of other Cthulhu Mythos writers like Arthur Bloch and Clark Asthon Smith.
There is one Conan story in partcular where Howard pastiches Lovecraft in both the name and description of the god Conan turns into calimari. I put it down to a bit of good natured ribbing of a friend. I can't remember the name of the story unfortunately.
Clark Ashton Smith's stories appear to be on Kindle.
There is a Cthulhu mythos megapack for 49p.
Big reveal is that the whole universe is actually a giant flumph itself.