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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    I didn't say CalExit was feasible or even a possibility, only that I support them--if they want out so badly, let them leave. Truthfully, only very few people who push for independence have given sufficient thought to the logistics and reality of actually leaving--they usually don't have a plan in place for transitioning into being a new country and the nascent country will likely have a lot of internal power struggles as the new leader(s) disagree on all sorts of things, including who will be in charge of the new government and what form that government will take. The reason I support such things, though, is because I have learned--the hard way--that staying in relationships--any sort of relationship--when they are past the point of being healthy is A Really Bad Idea (tm).

    As @CamDawg notes, California would have a tough time with water rights but if the State would invest in desalination (most processes are still not economically viable in large scale but you have to start somewhere) that could alleviate some of the need from the river.

    McCain really doesn't like Trump and enjoys ruining his plans.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    If there is a calexit could not Cali get agua from Mexico or Canada or possibly Nambia?

    Along with desalination the situation would be doable, no? The remaining US would be interested in trade right? All those red States living off the back of California by taking in more money than they collect in tax might be interested in trade.

    Maybe stop companies like Nestle from bottling and shipping out water for pennies on the dollar while they are at it too.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Yes, there would be all sorts of trade agreements/treaties made in the first six months. The real problem would be that if California leaves there would probably be at least five more States wanting to leave, as well.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438

    Yes, there would be all sorts of trade agreements/treaties made in the first six months. The real problem would be that if California leaves there would probably be at least five more States wanting to leave, as well.

    Well, first we'd have to decide why we're leaving and into how many states. Before the left-wing knuckleheads supporting CalExit we had a right-wing secession movement with the State of Jefferson knuckleheads. (I've long joked that the only reason California hasn't split into multiple states already is that no one wants to get stuck with Bakersfield.) The rural parts of the state wouldn't join a secession into some liberal wonderland.

    Personally, I think the blue-state, red-state stuff is a projection of a more fundamental split between cities and rural areas. If the urban population outweighs the rural population, you're a blue state; reverse for a red.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    At a rally tonight in Alabama, the President of the United States referred to Colin Kapernick (and, by extension, any NFL player who protests during the national anthem) as a "son of a bitch". This is what fascism looks like. Remember, these Kapernick may be a "son of a bitch", but there were plenty of "good people" marching among the Alt-right in Charlottesville. I have 5 or 6 names I'd like to call Donald Trump, but I'd get a temporary ban for doing so:


    I firmly believe that the majority of the people who attend Trump's rallies would have be ENTHUSIASTIC Nazis if fate had placed them in 1930s Germany.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    Jeeze. Again, another example of him boasting " And I'll the the most presidential of any president, that you'll ever see, and, probably, I think, of all time." Yeah right, sure buddy... He's already won the Least presidential award of all time, as far as I see it. The man can't even talk proper.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Republicans are also not stopping at trying to repeal Obamacare. I've been saying for months they are sabotaging it from within. We now have a concrete example of how. Every Sunday during open enrollment, HHS is SHUTTING DOWN the website til the end of the year for 12 hours. On Sunday, when most people don't work and use that day to take care of personal business. Republicans simply DO NOT want people to have insurance, and they especially don't want POOR people to have it. The party has become nothing but a Calvinist cult.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Now, this morning, because the Golden State Warriors are not interested in attending Trump's White House in honor of their championship, Trump rescinds the invitation (NO, I'm breaking up with YOU first!!!). The fact that Trump is attacking black athletes is not a coincidence. The right wants their sports figures to dance for them and shut up. What they want is a minstrel show. Highly paid minstrels, but minstrels nonetheless. In the case of the NFL, you can throw in a dash of the Roman Coliseum as well. Entertain me. I mean clearly sports figures should not be able to discuss politics. The only people that should talk politics are mechanics, bartenders, nurses, janitors, cops, carpenters, truck drivers or whatever other job everybody else with a political opinion expresses. Just not sportspeople and celebrities.

    Again, harsh words for silent, non-violent protests and people who don't want to be associated with his White House, and "many good people" for white supremacists. It only took about a week for what Jemele Hill said on Twitter to be proven out in events related to the sports world. Maybe next he'll demand to see Colin Kapernick's and Steph Curry's birth certificates:
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Major sports stars are now straight-up calling Trump a coward, bum and an asshole this morning. Which is both entirely accurate and what he wants (my guess is big Russia news is coming). Regardless, you don't hold back on this guy. You play his game. Fighting Trump requires being in the gutter, and you need to be willing to get as dirty as he is to defeat him. You want to know what the Golden State Warriors should do?? Go to Obama's house and take the team picture on his front lawn. The sight of that many black men "disrespecting" him will send him into a blind rage. You are now going to see dozens if not hundreds of NFL players protesting during the anthem tomorrow. And if red-state NFL fans don't like it, they can kick rocks. They can either stop watching the games, or live with it. The players are getting their checks either way.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    It should be noted that in the same "son of a bitch" speech, he also talked about how "soft" the game has gotten, and laments the fact that the league is attempting to do the bare minimum to reduce head trauma. Which basically translates to the fact that he is ok with people being brain-damaged in their early-50s for his entertainment purposes.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    So many athletes in the past have turned down White House visits from Brady to Jordan, to NASCAR drivers to probably most infamously Tim Thomas (turning the event into his political Tea Party ideals instead of what had become a light hearted photo op).

    The difference is that the president at the time (going all the way back to Reagan here with Larry Bird) never made a deal out of it, unless you count the hilarious joke George W said about Manny Ramirez (I guess his Grandmother died again. Just Kidding. Tell Manny I didn't mean it.)

    The thing is no president ever took it personal when one (or even half) of the invitees choose not to attend. They still honour those who do show up and don't punish the entire team over one persons comments or actions.

    But I am also surprised that the Pittsburgh Penguins haven't had their presidential visit yet (or an invite). They already said they won't turn down the invite, but if Trump doesn't schedule one soon it might not even happen as the season is about to start and there are only a handful of dates when the team is in Washington.

    And now that I am reminiscing on these visits, I think I am going to miss Obama's versions of them. He always nailed them with the NHL teams with light hearted jokes and his fanboyism with the Blackhawks that he will be a tough act to follow. That tough act is probably why none have happened yet.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    deltago said:

    And now that I am reminiscing on these visits, I think I am going to miss Obama's versions of them. He always nailed them with the NHL teams with light hearted jokes and his fanboyism with the Blackhawks that he will be a tough act to follow. That tough act is probably why none have happened yet.

    Trump would happily tell you he does better athlete championship meet ups than Obama. He'd say he does the best athlete meet ups.

    The reason people don't want to go see him has nothing to do with Obama's friendly joking around being a tough act to follow. It has everything to do with Trump's rhetoric and actions and horrible positions and worldview.

    He's proven again and again in his own words he's a misogynistic racist bully. When are we going to believe him, he's shown us who he is many times.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017

    deltago said:

    And now that I am reminiscing on these visits, I think I am going to miss Obama's versions of them. He always nailed them with the NHL teams with light hearted jokes and his fanboyism with the Blackhawks that he will be a tough act to follow. That tough act is probably why none have happened yet.

    Trump would happily tell you he does better athlete championship meet ups than Obama. He'd say he does the best athlete meet ups.

    The reason people don't want to go see him has nothing to do with Obama's friendly joking around being a tough act to follow. It has everything to do with Trump's rhetoric and actions and horrible positions and worldview.

    He's proven again and again in his own words he's a misogynistic racist bully. When are we going to believe him, he's shown us who he is many times.
    There are those who would argue that Trump is not a racist but is simply catering to racists at every possible opportunity. I'd say that case was settled in the 1970s housing discrimination suit, but especially in his push for the Central Park Five to be executed even AFTER they were exonerated by DNA evidence. The misogynist part is undeniable by nearly everyone. Anyone standing up to him pisses him off, but he gets ESPECIALLY pissed when it is a woman or an African-American.

    And where, once again, are the free speech absolutists on the Alt-right when the head of the Executive Branch of the government is calling for black athletes to be fired if they don't tow the "patriotic" line?? As Jack Nicholson said in the '89 Batman movie, "they are at home, washing their tights".

    And by the way, even if you take at face value and AGREE that not disrespecting the flag or the anthem is a "requirement" of good citizenship, here is a Twitter thread that exposes the blatant, mind-blowing hypocrisy of that line of thinking:

    So....conservatives can either adhere to EVERY one of those rules in the flag code (which none of them have) or they can lose all intellectual credibility on the issue. If you have ever eaten off a paper plate or used a napkin with a flag on it, you don't have shit-all ground to stand on in regards to proper patriotic conduct. Not a single ounce.

    If you believe that the American flag and the anthem that is associated with are so sacrosanct as to warrant absolute, undying fealty, then it isn't even a REMOTELY unreasonable request to expect the person taking that position to not only know the flag code backwards and forwards, but to also adhere to it in every aspect of their lives. If they don't, their argument and position is meaningless and useless, and shouldn't even be given the time of day. And, it goes without saying, you know what is far more of an insult to the American flag than anything any protester has ever done?? The Confederate flag.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    ICE agents are now without question acting like Stormtroopers on American streets. Totally, utterly predictable and inevitable:
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Who's left that Trump hasn't insulted?

    He's gone after Ryan and McConnell. His fans must have noticed how he has successfully bullied them and other Republican legislators who must not enjoy being cucked by Trump. He's insulted all the Democrats. He's gone after beloved sports the NFL and NBA. He's attacked sports figures, black people, latinos, Mexicans and muslims. He's besties with the alt-right but then he fired Bannon so they've been poked. He's pushed policies attacking transgender people and always hires anti-gay people. Some of his favorite targets to attack are women, who make up half the population - he just had his education secretary make things easier for rapists at college. That's a lot of folks he's disrespected and that's far from an all inclusive list.

    Maybe there's two groups he hasn't completely insulted. One group are Christians. While he hasn't insulted them he clearly has no idea what a bible is or the teachings of Christ. This dude has five kids from three wives and has been mixed up with mobsters and owns Casinos and has a decided unchristlike personality, come on this is your guy? I don't get it. The other group he hasn't completely alienated are the rich but they have to realize that his war mongering and manic personality can't be good for their way of life, after all the markets like stability. President Pence could get them their beloved tax cuts and he probably wouldn't start a war with North Korea while doing so. People that support Trump, maybe they're just stubborn or falling into the sunk cost fallacy or something. Just watch they'll do another opinion poll and he'll be at 30-40%. How on earth is he not at 5%.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    @smeagolheart Ive been taking a news break lately, too much at the moment. What's the story with the Education Secretary and schools?
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938

    Athletes kneeling during the national anthem is, contrary to what many may think, *more* "American" than absentmindedly standing and saluting every time you hear the first few notes. The United States was founded on defiance and independence, thus making those the most central and patriotic behaviors people may represent. If you haven't protested against your country then, well, you're doing it wrong.

    Huh. Makes sense, like anything against the norm, it takes guts to step away from the herd sometimes, esp. at the risk of derision and one's own well being or way of living.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017

    Who's left that Trump hasn't insulted?

    He's gone after Ryan and McConnell. His fans must have noticed how he has successfully bullied them and other Republican legislators who must not enjoy being cucked by Trump. He's insulted all the Democrats. He's gone after beloved sports the NFL and NBA. He's attacked sports figures, black people, latinos, Mexicans and muslims. He's besties with the alt-right but then he fired Bannon so they've been poked. He's pushed policies attacking transgender people and always hires anti-gay people. Some of his favorite targets to attack are women, who make up half the population - he just had his education secretary make things easier for rapists at college. That's a lot of folks he's disrespected and that's far from an all inclusive list.

    Maybe there's two groups he hasn't completely insulted. One group are Christians. While he hasn't insulted them he clearly has no idea what a bible is or the teachings of Christ. This dude has five kids from three wives and has been mixed up with mobsters and owns Casinos and has a decided unchristlike personality, come on this is your guy? I don't get it. The other group he hasn't completely alienated are the rich but they have to realize that his war mongering and manic personality can't be good for their way of life, after all the markets like stability. President Pence could get them their beloved tax cuts and he probably wouldn't start a war with North Korea while doing so. People that support Trump, maybe they're just stubborn or falling into the sunk cost fallacy or something. Just watch they'll do another opinion poll and he'll be at 30-40%. How on earth is he not at 5%.

    Because FOX News and hate radio have lobotomized 30% of the country and turned them into pod people. There has been a historically effective propaganda effort by the American right since Nixon was forced to resign. The people who have fallen prey to it are no longer reachable.

    In his statements about NFL players, Donald Trump is CLEARLY violating US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 11 227:

    18 U.S. Code § 227 - Wrongfully influencing a private entity’s employment decisions by a Member of Congress or an officer or employee of the legislative or executive branch

    (a) Whoever, being a covered government person, with the intent to influence, solely on the basis of partisan political affiliation, an employment decision or employment practice of any private entity—
    (1) takes or withholds, or offers or threatens to take or withhold, an official act, or
    (2) influences, or offers or threatens to influence, the official act of another,
    shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 15 years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.
    (b) In this section, the term “covered government person” means—
    (1) a Senator or Representative in, or a Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress;
    (2) an employee of either House of Congress; or
    (3) the President, Vice President, an employee of the United States Postal Service or the Postal Regulatory Commission, or any other executive branch employee (as such term is defined under section 2105 of title 5, United States Code).
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I don't think that satisfies the requirement. This isn't Trump using his official powers to force the NFL to fire someone; he's merely saying they should. Bad, maybe, but not illegal or an abuse of power.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017

    I don't think that satisfies the requirement. This isn't Trump using his official powers to force the NFL to fire someone; he's merely saying they should. Bad, maybe, but not illegal or an abuse of power.

    How are his statements not an "intent to influence" NFL owners?? He has now made 3 of them saying the same thing in the last 24 hours: That if a player does not stand during the National Anthem, they should be fired. There really isn't any way for him to use OFFICIAL powers to do something like this without resorting to straight-up dictatorial tactics. He is trying to influence to owners (many of whom donated millions to his campaign), he is doing it (certainly in his view) from a partisan political standpoint, as an attempt to weaponize the culture war once again.

    Now granted, the amount of US codes Donald Trump is probably breaking at any given moment likely numbers in the dozens depending on the day of the week, but I feel this one absolutely applies in this case. It doesn't say he has to force them to fire the players to be in violation, only that he is trying to influence them. This is a real free-speech issue, because the most powerful person in the United States government, NOT a private entity like Google or Youtube or Twitter, is attempting to silence dissent and opinions and trying to put public pressure on the employers of these men to take away their jobs. Not surprisingly, when this ACTUAL issue of free speech comes up, the Alt-right brigade is wholly absent when it comes to their defense (and have been absent on Kapernick from the beginning).

    I am now reading reports (and we'll see if they bear out in the next few hours) that over 500 players plan on protesting today in some form in response to Donald Trump. That would be over a 1/3 of the entire league. Solidarity is ALWAYS the way to defeat people like Trump. We are now going to see if all those red-state football fans will put their money where there mouth is and give up their Sunday afternoon entertainment and abandon their teams. My money is on that not happening. They'll bitch about the players, and they'll keep watching. And, in the end, until a new collective bargaining agreement is set to be negotiated, any actual erosion of viewership only hurts 3 entities: the advertisers, the networks, and the owners. If anyone who boycotts the NFL over this thinks PLAYERS will get hit hardest, they are wholly misinformed and off-base. The players are getting paid either way. The funniest thing about this is, of course, that most of these NFL owners supported Trump, and he is now paying them back by manufacturing a PR disaster for their league. Because Donald Trump will screw over anyone who isn't Donald Trump if it suits him in the moment. And before this is all over, every Trump voter in the country is going to know what that feels like.

    There is a game being played in London right now, and over 27 players on the Ravens and Jaguars teams knelt during the anthem.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,318

    How are his statements not an "intent to influence" NFL owners?? He has now made 3 of them saying the same thing in the last 24 hours: That if a player does not stand during the National Anthem, they should be fired. There really isn't any way for him to use OFFICIAL powers to do something like this without resorting to straight-up dictatorial tactics. He is trying to influence to owners (many of whom donated millions to his campaign), he is doing it (certainly in his view) from a partisan political standpoint, as an attempt to weaponize the culture war once again.

    I agree there's the intent to influence, but I doubt whether a court would find Trump in breach of the code:
    (i) it needs to be proven that his statements were partisan - Trump would certainly argue he was speaking on behalf of the country as a whole rather than a particular party.
    (ii) the intent to influence needs to be by virtue of an official act (either taken or withheld). I'm not aware that Trump has suggested any such act, though I haven't been following this closely.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    According to the law quoted, there has to be a certain intent, and I think Trump's intent is clear. But it also specifies that the action must be an official act in order for it to be illegal:

    (1) takes or withholds, or offers or threatens to take or withhold, an official act, or
    (2) influences, or offers or threatens to influence, the official act of another
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Grond0 said:

    How are his statements not an "intent to influence" NFL owners?? He has now made 3 of them saying the same thing in the last 24 hours: That if a player does not stand during the National Anthem, they should be fired. There really isn't any way for him to use OFFICIAL powers to do something like this without resorting to straight-up dictatorial tactics. He is trying to influence to owners (many of whom donated millions to his campaign), he is doing it (certainly in his view) from a partisan political standpoint, as an attempt to weaponize the culture war once again.

    I agree there's the intent to influence, but I doubt whether a court would find Trump in breach of the code:
    (i) it needs to be proven that his statements were partisan - Trump would certainly argue he was speaking on behalf of the country as a whole rather than a particular party.
    (ii) the intent to influence needs to be by virtue of an official act (either taken or withheld). I'm not aware that Trump has suggested any such act, though I haven't been following this closely.
    At the very least, it's far closer to a violation of this code than any President should ever be in the realm of. Again, this is unprecedented. You can't point to a single example of any other modern President doing such a thing. Not Clinton, not Bush, not Obama. One of the most annoying things about Trump is that he is making Bush (who was horrible) look like a dignified statesman.

    It's also worth noting that the NFL owners and players have what is called a collective bargaining agreement. There are no rules against not standing for the National Anthem in that agreement. There conceivably could be when it gets renegotiated, but there isn't right now. So the owners have no legal standing to fire ANY player for this reason and this reason alone.

    By the way, here are some public opinion poll numbers from the heart of the Civil Rights movement in 1961 and 1963. The majority of Americans being against black people (and their allies) speaking up about anything is nothing new under the sun. It's NEVER the right time to speak out according to these people, and it never has been:
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited September 2017
    Zaghoul said:

    @smeagolheart Ive been taking a news break lately, too much at the moment. What's the story with the Education Secretary and schools?

    @Zaghoul

    "The U.S. Education Department rolled back Obama-era Title IX guidelines on investigating cases of sexual assault on campus Friday, prompting criticism from victims' rights groups and cheers from organizations representing people accused of assault."

    Her interim guidance "will discourage students from reporting assaults, create uncertainty for schools on how to follow the law, and make campuses less safe," Fatima Goss Graves, president and CEO of the National Women’s Law Center, said in a statement. "This misguided directive is a huge step back to a time when sexual assault was a secret that was swept under the rug."

    She sided with the rapists rights, there must be some fine people on that side /s

    http://time.com/4954158/betsy-devos-title-ix-sexual-assault-guidelines/
    Sep 22, 2017
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    Following the German election on TV.

    Apparently, tons of Germans are moaning on Twitter, and threaten to leave the country, because the right wing party Alternative für Deutschland seems to be stomping into the parliament with more than double the votes they got in the last election. Oh, and the fact that the SPD and Merkels CDU stand to receive a serious flaying by the voters doesn't really sit well with them as well.

    How neat... now, in which election did we see a similar and sudden epidemic of snowflakeitis? Anyone? I can't remember.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Snowflake is a derogatory term for liberals. No one has called you by an insulting name, @Yulaw9460, so I think you can do the same.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited September 2017
    Yulaw9460 said:

    Following the German election on TV.

    Apparently, tons of Germans are moaning on Twitter, and threaten to leave the country, because the right wing party Alternative für Deutschland seems to be stomping into the parliament with more than double the votes they got in the last election. Oh, and the fact that the SPD and Merkels CDU stand to receive a serious flaying by the voters doesn't really sit well with them as well.

    How neat... now, in which election did we see a similar and sudden epidemic of snowflakeitis? Anyone? I can't remember.

    It sounds like US election meddling and fake news might have worked again. Sad.
    See->

    US alt-right is attempting to meddle in Germany's election.

    Emboldened by the installation of Donald Trump and successful Russian meddling in the US election, US alt-right internet trolls and bots have meddled in the German election. A specific link to Russia has not been discovered but there are links to the US alt-right.

    The German government has been notified that an alliance of mostly anonymous online trolls and extremists are disseminating right wing propaganda online. Germany has been a hotspot for #altright and targeted attacks against #Merkel and #shultz.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/20/meddling-germany-election-not-russia-but-u-s-right-wing/676142001

    Will they get away with it? If I was Germany I'd slap some economic sanctions on the rogue regime encouraging meddling in their elections because that's the least you should to do if you are a Democracy being subverted by a foreign power.
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634

    Snowflake is a derogatory term for liberals. No one has called you by an insulting name, @Yulaw9460, so I think you can do the same.

    Sorry, can't. My standards are pretty low. Trust me, it's a daily struggle to cope with it, but I somehow manage.
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