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[MOD] -Scales of Balance- a post-hac tweak mod

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  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    @subtledoctor

    I like the style bonuses very much. The combining of SwS and Two-handed could work in theory, but I am afraid that spears and two handed swords would than completely overshadow the rest of the weapons.
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  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 76
    I have some questions/suggestions - are scimitars regarded as medium/light weapons in the item revision part of this mod now, and if not, considering enormous references to characters dual wielding sabres and scimitars in the forgotten realms (like drizzt), maybe they should be?
    And maybe be altered to do 2d3 or 1d6 damage instead of 1d8?
  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 76
    edited December 2017
    Also, I'm a bit confused in regards to how many APRs a 2 pip dual wielding grandmaster fighter Vs a max pip dual wielding ranger or 2-handed style grandmaster fighter would have.

    I really like all the proposed changes other than that - except merging sws and 2h style. While simpler, I don't think it makes sense since one is focused on agility and finesse while the other is focused on... well, breaking stuff as hard as you can.

    Edit: Just had a thought! What if, as a way to further distinguish sws and 2hs, sws offers the opportunity to do a counterpunch or deflection with the free hand?
    Dunno if it's even mechanically possible, just an idea.
    Post edited by Djinn on
    ThacoBell
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  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    edited December 2017
    1.Speed offense. APR, weapon speed and Thaco at the cost of maybe some AC? Full on reckless assault.

    2.Damage offense. Higher damage, higher crit rate, maybe a minor aoe and lower attack speed? Big powerful followthroughs.

    3.Full on defense. Reduced damage and thaco for ac boosts and maybe minor resistances to piercing,slashing,crushing.

    4.Balanced. Minor boost to thaco, ac, with no penalty. Balanced but unexceptional.

    BONUS ROUND

    counter style. small ac boost, with chance to riposte when attacked in melee. Loses some offense to focus on block/counter. Maybe replacing the balanced style.
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    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Maybe stick with tweaking the existing styles, rather than reinventing the wheel.

    You can have SWS be more attack and speed focused while balancing it with reduced defenses.

    2Hand stlye can focus damage and crit.

    SS can give defense bonuses, maybe even some resitances, but no offense bonus.

    I like the idea of dual wield being parry based. Maybe have a small bonus Ac as discussed, but having a "riposte" attack. Being focused on counterattacking with with no offense boost besides what the counterattack offers.
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    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Maybe the single weapon speed/power can be weapon dependant. Can you really see someone using power daggers or speed halberds?
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    edited December 2017
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    ThacoBell
  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136
    @subtledoctor thanks for suggestions. Definitely, with my unmodded BGEE attempt, my level 5 multiclass party had 65/55/40/39 HP's. This is more than enough to go like truck over mobs, especially when they are completely crapped. The only really hard enemy was a Borda which in original game for some unknown reason had 100% MR (that still doable with right tactics and bit of luck). On other side my random picks with SCS (and may be without) shows that there is no big matter how many you have HP, if enemy paralyze you - you are died. I'm will consider you suggestion.

    I'm forget what i'm originally want to ask... so ask another questions:

    1. Does STO component compatible with Spell Revisions? Looks like it generates lot of warnings (effects not applied to spells... but this is probably intended).

    2. Unrelated to SoB, but if i'm trying install Spell Revisions on BGEE+SoD with modmerge - i'm still get some strings corrupted (phantom blade's name becomes wrong). And in other places some random errors (but generally all is ok) - may be i'm miss something? Looks like in BG2 and EET this problem is not exist, but... not sure, btw - SoB works with EET? BWS complains about conflict with one EET core component, but i'm never checked it, if it is really has trouble (and doesn't seen reason why they should, unless they not overwrite something).
  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136
    @subtledoctor ah, i'm remember question.

    1. Can you recommend play with "revised critical hits aversion"? Basically i'm like this idea, but really not sure about. Looks like it is enough items which can provide protection from criticals... so, it is basically all around wait to take this gear.

    2. As for dynamic bonuses, intelligence and casting level - original game if i'm correct doesn't has this items, so it is kind of "safe" feature. I'm feel that there is more IR's issue when they are completely limit INT-boosting sources to only some items (with mediocre +1/+2 boost). But, with SoB and dynamic stat bonuses i'm feel that this items can also boost INT instead of caster level and this would fit better. E.g. Amulet of Power instead of providing plain caster level bonus can boost INT. Depending from stat, gaining another point in save vs spell or/or caster level should not be bad thing (as well as just having some INT boosting items). On another side this gives another possibilities for gaining additional spell slots from INT, but... may be it is not so bad thing. I'm played in BG2 very long time ago, doesn't remember many things.

    3. As for YARAS: with IR it is looks bit broken: IR/original game already has some armors for casters. IR adds Shadow Armor +3 (e.g. you can cast in this armor even without mods on casting speed/failure chance penalty). Elven Chain (+0)... also traditionally doesn't disable casting. YARAS at same time apply casting time penalties for this kind armors. This doesn't look very right for me. And generally their penalties looks bit less stronger, than SoB's, that can be good and bad thing (e.g. they also implement DR for them, but at less degree). Doesn't know what's the best choice here.

    Thanks.
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  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136

    Lamiar said:

    2. As for dynamic bonuses, intelligence and casting level...

    Amulet of Power instead of providing plain caster level bonus can boost INT. Depending from stat, gaining another point in save vs spell or/or caster level

    Genius. And easy to do. I'll add this to the stats component.
    May be easy, but not so great in general. Some companions will benefit bit more from caster level bonus, some completely not. But, surely, if effects not stacked / not chosen current best by engine - then there is definitely better to avoid of use caster level effect from items (in my opinion). But i'm doesn't know why in IR they are really removed potion of genius / limit sources of INT => just because it was worthless, or just because everyone play with "Easy Spell Learning with unlimited spells/day". :)

    YARAS adds fairly steep casting speed penalties to all armors, but not to "caster" armors. So with a normal set of chain mail Magic Missile has a casting speedy execution of 5; but in elven chain it has a casting time of 1 or 2. If you regularly cast spells in combat, that is extremely advantageous and you'll definitely want to wear caster armor.

    (Those values can be tweaked in the .ini file by the way.)

    Yep, i know, but IR turns Shadow Armor +3 in a very-special Thief/Mage caster armor (and fighter/mage can't use it):
    Equipped Abilities:
    Shadow Armor: allows arcane spellcasting without penalties, and grants a +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows

    Armor Class: 4
    Speed Factor Penalty: +1
    Physical Resistance Bonus: +5%
    Weight: 0

    With installed YARAS on top of it, we get very similar, but gain casting speed penalty, and this is doesn't look like intended. I'm even not sure that physical resistance bonus on shadow armor is was intended.


    At same time they turn Archimage robes into something different:

    Robe of Battlemage (was Good Archimage):
    THAC0: +2 bonus
    Armor Class: +2 bonus
    Maximum Hit Points: +10 bonus

    Robe of Arcane Might (i think it was Evil):
    Caster Level: +2 bonus
    Saving Throws: +2 bonus
    Magic Damage Resistance: +20% bonus

    Robe of the Weave:
    Magic Resistance: +20% bonus

    Generally first two are good, Weave i'm doesn't very like. And again caster level here, but low level characters can utilize benefit of this in BG1 relatively early and easily i think.

    At same time some items from Dragonspear are bit more interesting, but follow old concept of AC5 (and currently not touched by IR), for example:

    Robe of Arcane Aptitude:
    Equipped abilities:
    – Intelligence: +1
    – Armor Class: 5

    Charge abilities:
    – Spell Sequencer once per day

    As you see, they are not so greedy on bonuses. :)

    So, as you see, IR archimage robes doesn't provide any AC, but allow be even more stronger. And also this technically returns Armor spell from SR back in play...

    On another hand any physical armor provides AC without spells and DR and you pay for this by some penalties... casting speed mainly / speed factor.

    Well, i'm doesn't say that YARAS do things bad, i'm even like it bit more, than IR's, by this "steep" penalties. But, installing this on-top of IR still needs tweaking. Also from my feelings - casting in fight can easily cause interrupt, even on relatively fast spells even with smaller penalties.

    E.g. all of this requires separate mod and/or component. :)

    Anyway i'm now will try IR's armor with movement and speed casting penalty, and revised critical hit aversion. May be later back to YARAS.

    Thanks!
  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136
    Hello.

    @subtledoctor some minor bugs:

    1. Intellgence's in-game description states that INT18/19 gain +2 caster level, but tables from readme states that this provides only +1 caster level. So description in setup.tra looks wrong/outdate. So, may be you be able fix this with next release.

    2. Read-Me miss table for constitution bonuses, this is looks like as part of HDO component, but - in-game constitution description really bit clearer than textual description (HDO's textual description still needed). May be have sense transplant table from in-game description into readme. :)

    3. Technically minor, but... first, read-me states:
    Multiclass fighter/mages can attain Mastery (+++) in any weapon but the only available styles are Single-Weapon and Two-Handed Weapon.
    But, actually only Fencing style is available for Fighter/Mage. I'm personally ok with availability only Fencing style. But here bit of magic happens: give F/M enough INT, so he obtain innate abilities for weapon proficiencies - and they are allow "learn" any fighting style which normally is not available (but innate weapon specialization doesn't allow specialize in fighting style).

    So here two things: 1. which styles should be available for F/M? Only Fencing or TWH too? (Probably if we want keep in mind Bladesigner from M&G - may be F/M should be able use TWH too, this would allow Bladesigner be bit more restricted).

    2. Does innate weapon proficiency learning ability should allow learning of weapon styles?
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    edited December 2017
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    edited December 2017
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    ThacoBell
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    edited December 2017
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  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136

    IR description above, YARAS added description below. YARAS imposes a +3 casting speed penalty on studded leather armor by default, to this armor has a -3 advantage over any other studded leather - as well as the Hide in Shadows bonus and being the best enchanted leather armor in the game. So it still retains quite an appeal for stealthy casters.

    I'm was unclear, sorry. There is only luck for Shadow Armor, but some other armors which are supposed to be "caster" armor are doesn't have so many luck and get speed penalty. If i'm correct this happens at least for "Drow Adamantine Chain +5" which are designed to be caster-armor.

    Equipped abilities:
    – Open Locks: -5%
    – Find Traps: -5%
    – Pick Pockets: -20%
    – Move Silently: -10%
    – Spellcasting is not disabled

    Armor Class: 0 (-4 vs. crushing)
    Requires:
    5 Strength

    Speed Factor Penalty: +1
    Physical Resistance Bonus: +10%
    Weight: 12
    But, i'm decided go with YARAS. :) I'm will let you know on any useful findings.

    PS: Also probably patching result depends... on components from IR. May be i'm install IR component with casting penalty and then YARAS. I'm not sure.
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  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136
    edited December 2017
    @subtledoctor I'm will love new weapon styles.

    No more critical chance increasing from single weapon style? (E.g. you decided in this, i'm probably miss some comments about)

    ADD: I'm think that sweet point is around 3-4APR for warrior characters, DW thiefs, and rest characters want reach 2APR. Item & Spell Revisions literally remove lot of exploits of hastening, nerfing Belm/Kundane (only +.5APR, but Scarlet Ninjato - +1APR), but anyway no one should exceed 5APR cap. So even if characters be bit stronger than in vanilla, they anyway will be not so strong as with 8-10APR under improved haste.

    Your weapon styles looks like really repair this previously broken stuff. So there is no absolute winner, and really has sense to rely on styles. And want to try each. :)


    PS:

    Looks like i'm almost roll my perfect party and ready to go:

    Elven Fighter/Mage (PC): 16/18/16/14/11/10 = 85, focus on Single-Weapon style with long swords, bows, something else
    Elven Mage/Thief: 12/19/12/14/11/18 = 86, focus on Dual-Wielding, bows, daggers, short swords
    Elven Cleric/Mage: 13/17/12/19/18/10 = 89, focus on Two-Handed weapons, quarterstaves, but at first level... mace and sling (dislike sling, but there is no other choice). May be overpowered a bit and has sense to sacrifice one point of dexterity. But there is absolutely no-brainer choice of INT/WIS. Eventually she even would be able kick with staff very strong. :)

    14 INT looks reasonable for characters focused on melee fight or tricks, and 14 INT legally allow learn 7 level spells, what's should allow to not worry too much about INT boosting. Yep, they will not have many bonus spells, but, still has 1-2 bonus level spells, that's should be excellent in BG1. Surely 16 INT is much better, like and 17 or 18 STR for fighter (especially with penalty from one-handed weapons). Decrease DEX to 18 and 17 -> not sure... they are still big, but at least not a -5 AC with 19 DEX, but there is also not 18STR chars. So i'm hope this party will not be too overpowered.

    Want also pick shield fighter, i'm like shields, so... some good NPC should take this place (good-old Jaheira, Minsc maybe).

    I'm trying to go with some moderate amount of mods ("recommended" setup with BWS, and of course SR+IR+SCS some other minor tweaks).

    SoB with almost all components (above average HP), but removing No murder XP. YARAS i'm picking because of "steep" casting speed penalty + higher DEX penalties which fits much better to revisited stat bonuses.

    XP cap removed, but... will try remain stay in cap. As far as i'm remember later in game there is exist lack of ability to cast 5 level spells (or it was in early stage BG2 - i'm doesn't remember).

    And finally i'm want switch to EET, but it is so long install... So, better try BG1EE first. :) Within EET i'm will try all other (big quest) mods, some of them introduce lot of easy available overpowered items in BG1-era world.

    Will write feedback once get enough progress in game.

    Thanks for you work. :)

    PS: BTW, do you solve "issue" from More Styles for Mages with staffs to be automatically ranged/melee? I'm install it just in case, but if i'm will use them - then i'm probably will just equip two staves with different modes (anyway i'm use first slot for melee weapon, and second for ranged). On other side sling kick harder! :)
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  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136
    @subtledoctor thanks. I'm just found some errors in my install, IR + Revised Armor with speed penalties are... should not used with YARAS = otherwise damage reduction values stacks. Second thing, i'm just found that YARAS use alternative dexterity table bonuses which a higher. Wow! :)

    As for cool staff's - i'm anyway use "only show genuine attacks" option... :)

    Correct. As I was thinking about it, I just couldn't understand it. A crit is supposed to be a strike that powers through and blows away the opponent's defenses, right? To me that only seems appropriate for two-handed strikes.

    I'm think this is has sense, just ask for clarify. In my taste increasing critical strike range for me this is very powerful feature, and players still has other possibilities to score criticals. I'm remember days when you try score criticals by INT and CHA -> that leads to crazy things. :)
  • LamiarLamiar Member Posts: 136
    edited December 2017

    We could add more such little interactions: theoretically, shields could have a small aura giving a -5% crit chance penalty to attackers in melee range, which would cancel out the crit benefit of 2-hand weapon style. This would play nicely with IR's "Revised Critical hit Aversion" in that shields would block most critical hits... but some (from 2-handed weapons) could still get through.

    This is interesting idea, i like auras, but dislike bards. :)

    But this aura applies to enemies or allies or only on-self? What if enemy has standard critical chance - would it prevent criticals completely? E.g. if it is aura applied to enemies - then... well, assuming aura is small radius - it will prevent them even if char surrounded, right? Ideally it should prevent them only from front 120/180 arc, and may be full arc for chars with 18+ DEX for example (some kind of shield dancing technique). Do it need to be proficient/specialized in shield fighting for this?

    Idea interesting, but in that case shields probably will be too good. If it is debuffing aura... Well, then it is debuffing aura. Good effect for unique shield (at same time, weak - uniques appears lately, but protection needed from first level). :)

    As for me idea VERY interesting. But... need more details. :)
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  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    edited December 2017
    @Lamiar
    revised critical system does increase the chance of dying significantly, but i found that actualy pretty enjoyable. When in combat engaged party members are always in danger as opposed from vanilla safe cushion of bulk of hp. Yes ogre berserkers can indeed smash you to goo - but they are friggin ogre berserkers, thats what they should do. When engaging such dangerous foes, meeling them should not be the optimal tactic.

    Also there are still items that prevent critical hits, it just not available for free to whole party once you visit Winthrop´s shop.

    Also yes i do agree that that robe of the weave and robe of the arcane might could use some tweaking especially due to SoB stat and MR overhaul components. I would leave a Siege of Dragonspear stuff out for now as the expansion needs attention from several mods, including SCS and all of the revisions.
    Mantis37
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    @subtledoctor The proficiencies look well indeed, the Breath save is nice. The only thing i would yet again reconsider is the extra APR on two handers. I would prefer the extra damage/crit route, while not being afraid to make these bonuses realy strong.

    The feeling "slower but stronger" would suit the style. Also note that two handers are generaly used by warriors, who do tend to have good thac0 and APR, so they might be willing to give up the half attack for the sweet extra damage on the rest of their plentyfull attacks. Also do not forget that two-handed weapons are generaly stronger, easier to access and are considered to have the best end-game speciments in both games (Spider bane, Staff of striking, Carsomyr, Ixil Spike, Staff of the Ramm, Sword of the Grief...). Plus who does not like shaking screen and chunking stuff.

    Regarding the stats overhaul - i would keep as much saves on charisma as possible, plus i would try to spread them some more between the 10-15 range, where no penalties or bonuses are applied.

    Bonus question: Since i finaly found out why my caster level is always so weird - how does the engine handles multiple casting speed effects?
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