Which, in your opinion, is the most powerful class in the Infinity Engine Games series?
Rik_Kirtaniya
Member Posts: 1,742
Please Note:
This poll is with reference to the Baldur's Gate Saga and Icewind Dale.
While voting, keep in mind the Experience Cap.
I've given only the most popular choices, but there's an "Other" option as well, since a poll can have a maximum of 10 options in all.
The options stand for both multi-classes and dual-classes, as well as any kit options that the classes may provide.
Let the verdict begin!
This poll is with reference to the Baldur's Gate Saga and Icewind Dale.
While voting, keep in mind the Experience Cap.
I've given only the most popular choices, but there's an "Other" option as well, since a poll can have a maximum of 10 options in all.
The options stand for both multi-classes and dual-classes, as well as any kit options that the classes may provide.
Let the verdict begin!
- Which, in your opinion, is the most powerful class in the Infinity Engine Games series?50 votes
- Fighter/Mage32.00%
- Fighter/Cleric (or Ranger/Cleric)4.00%
- Fighter/Druid0.00%
- Monk0.00%
- Inquisitor6.00%
- Blackguard0.00%
- Illusionist/Thief10.00%
- Sorcerer (or Dragon Disciple)16.00%
- Wild Mage6.00%
- Other (Please state)26.00%
1
Comments
If you include Icewind Dale 2 in the equation, then things get very different because of IWD2's using the 3rd edition ruleset. 3E rules cripple multi-classes, IWD2 rewards single-classed spellcasters, and IWD2's limited number of scrolls makes mages the weakest primary spellcasting class. If you wanted a character that could succeed in BG1, SoD, BG2, ToB, IWD, and IWD2, a sorcerer would be an excellent class in all of them.
I'd name the following classes as ideal for each game, assuming moderate player metagame knowledge (somebody who is neither a veteran nor a newbie):
BG1: Berserker
SoD: Fighter/Illusionist
BG2: Fighter/Illusionist
ToB: Fighter/Illusionist
IWD: Dwarven Defender
IWD2: Sorcerer
If you're going solo, replace the Berserker with a Fighter/Illusionist and the Dwarven Defender with a Fighter/Mage/Cleric. If you're going no-reload, replace the Berserker with a Berserker(7)->Mage, and it will take you all the way to the Throne of Bhaal.
Of course that's just a gross generalization, YMMV when it comes to the details. Some people will no doubt argue for Sorcerer instead, however F/M does basically the same things except it also hits stuff over the head. And we all know hitting things over the head is the one true way to play D&D.
Infinite backstab: check
Overpowered traps: check
Ability to use any item: check.
It might seem ironical that having created this poll myself, I did not include these in the first nine options. The fact is I'd completely forgotten about it, and realized it only after I'd finally posted the poll.
Mage/Cleric gets to cast both arcane and divine spells, which adds to both power as well as versatility. Slow but powerful Cleric spells become more effective with the Robe of Vecna and the ability to be cast in sequencers and contingencies. In fact, there are some really powerful spell sequencers which can only be cast by a Cleric/Mage. This class has immediate and spontaneous access to almost all the buffs one would ever need. If required, it can use Holy Power + PFMW (or DUHM) + Righteous Magic, coupled with a Stoneskin + Blur + Mirror Image to be a dangerous frontliner with great damage and THAC0 as well as powerful defenses. It can use all wands and scrolls, shields and helmets, and also has access to powerful weapons like Sling of Everard, Crom Faeyr, Flail of the Ages, Staff of the Magi, to name a few. This class has just so many more possibilities than any else.
The only drawback is APR, and if one is willing to sacrifice fast level progression and a few high level spell slots, one can take F/M/C to get max APR. Still, my first choice will be Mage/Cleric.
(I still don't understand how I had forgotten about it in the beginning. Weird...)
I would tend towards an assassin dualed late to fighter. Early game all encounters are easily won with poison weapon through ranged weaponry (darts!). Then once he picks up use any item and times many backstab, he gets fighter hlas and spell casting through scrolls.
Of course boring to go through the XP farming.
Alternatively, fun from the start would either be FT or FMT.
I'll be focusing purely on what a single character with max stats can contribute, since anything provided by another character (like Improved Haste on a single class fighter) is the power of that character, not the one in question.
The F/M gets helmets, an extra +1 APR, -4 THAC0, potentially an early Fighter strength advantage, and Tower Shields on top of an average 26.25 HP over the M/T (who is on ~45 HP with a familiar). They have an early strength bonus that disappears after pre-Candlekeep and +2 damage with whatever weapon they're choosing to use. 10/4/11/12/5 saves, so they've a slight edge over the M/T there, including on the important death save.
I'd say the Fighter/Mage has their biggest edge in Baldur's Gate 1, where getting a helmet is important and the Mage doesn't have stoneskins until late, but both have the tools to beat BG1 very easily with sleep, wands, invisibility, and kiting with bows, with plenty to contribute to a party. Generally the F/M's advantage is against minor enemies they can kill more easily, while the M/T's advantage is as a boss and mage killer, something which persists as they get into higher levels.
SoD: The M/T's traps upgrade to 3/day and 2D8+5 +6D6 over 3 rounds (266 average damage after the third round with seven snares), their backstab upgrades from x3 to x4, their HP is 54 average. Still -4 THAC0/1 APR behind. Enough thief skills to max out Set Snare, Find Traps, and Detect Illusion, leaving all stealth to Invisibility (which is better), and pick pockets to Potions of Master Thievery. 11/4/10/13/5 saves.
The F/M hits level 9 Fighter, maximising their HP advantage at 91.5 with the familiar, 37.5 higher than the M/T. 8/4/9/9/5 saves.
At this point it's sort of in the air. The M/T has enough spells to avoid physical damage, and thus crits, in most situations, enough HP to survive the odd one that creeps through (or a stray fireball that breaks through their MI), and their snares can straight up end some nasty enemies. Wand spam still dominates a lot of the game because SoD has such a target rich environment.
SoA: Rather assuming the SoA cap is in place rather than the ToB one, if not, just jump straight to ToB considerations. The Mage/Thief hits 16/13, x5 Backstab, 4/day snares that deal 38.5 damage each, average, to non-fire resistant enemies, ~66.5 HP, 10/2/9/11/3 saves.
With pick pocket and potion use they can have access to almost every spell from Chapter 2, massive amounts of gold and exp, infinitely recharged wands, and with all their extra skill points sunk into Pick Pockets they can quickly grow out of needing potions to do it.
With level 6 spells the M/T gets Mislead. Unbreakable invisibility with an x5 backstab to leverage it is extraordinarily powerful. They pick up +APR weapons - Boomerang Dagger and Belm for anything that doesn't need +4 or better (they can get +3 with Enchanted Weapon) means 4 APR, all of them x5 backstabs with the B.D hitting for 35 average damage per hit as a result.
The F/M hits level 13, getting their final 1/2 natural APR over the M/T and increasing their THAC0 advantage to -6, and their HP advantage grows with 105 HP average. 5/2/6/5/3 saves. They also get some nifty new immunities from the reflection shield and shield of Balduran.
SoA is where the F/M drops off hard in my opinion. Their APR advantage becomes negligible thanks to the various +APR weapons laying around, the extra damage per hit doesn't compare to Mislead abuse, and it's only now that they can pick up the same utility against illusions that the M/T has had since BG1, and they need to use a 1/day item or a spell slot for it. Both are basically unkillable thanks to being mages with level 6 spells, and thanks to having access to the RoV, the AoP, and the SotM.
ToB: The Mage/Thief is ascendant. UAI gives them access to all the helmets and shields they've been enviously coveting since BG1, they pick up Firetooth to upgrade their regular damage, and they have proficiency in most of the best weapon types and enough base THAC0 to "wing it" for most enemies using anything else. But at this point APR becomes largely irrelevant, because the M/T will be using Projected Images to use their HLA traps more times per day, removing the "rest" component from having 7/day traps set.
By the time they reach the ToB cap, the things the M/T cares about that the F/M gets amount to their superior saving throws and a slightly better weapon choice. The rest simply aren't that relevant.
tl;dr: Generally through BG1 and SoD the things available to both characters make the actual differences pretty small, while in SoA and ToB the M/T gets a lot of extra tricks that are some of the most powerful things possible in the series, making it overall superior in the context of the series.
Oh, and honourable mention goes to the other top 3 class: Illusionist/Cleric, which also gets some extremely solid options throughout.
- solo or party?
- reload or not?
- does power mean ability to kill enemies or something else?
- any restrictions on items used?
- difficulty level?
- mods installed?
It's hard to argue against some sort of mage being the most capable character at surviving, but it's not necessarily the best killer. It also depends heavily on the use of equipment and buffs and if, like me, you're not consistent in using buffs then suddenly that mage can look pretty vulnerable.
I'll put a vote in for a kensai, which will show up in kill stats as a consistently powerful character throughout the saga (though its relative power improves with levels). As it's often forgotten I'll just mention that part of the reason for the success of the kensai is the bonus it gets to weapon speed - hitting first in the round makes a huge difference to both the damage inflicted and taken.
It's not my favorite char at all, since I prefer less obviously "in-your-face" powerful characters myself (rogues, bards, T/Ms etc) that require a bit more planning and tactics, but it's power is undeniable. Negative saving throws already in BG1, you don't even need the claw of kazgaroth. With power items like ring of Gaxx, shield of harmony etc you can face the bane of most melee chars and win; mages. High APR with weapons that can damage through stoneskins etc while wearing all the MI and +savess items you can have will make you mostly immune vs mages. A human mage player could of course kill you, but not the AI.
So if I had to pick just one, that would be it.
A dwarf F/C or F/T, as well as, F/I gnome (it's not the spell slots from being specialized mage that makes them great, it's the saves that make gnome superior to all other F/Ms) come on as close second/third/fourth places.
And speaking of raw damage, I don't think the I/T can reach 10 APR (can anyone verify? I'm not exactly sure), even with Improved Haste, which the FMT can do easily. Two pips in the weapon proficiencies also add +2 to damage for FMT.
And a FMT is undoubtedly much more versatile than an I/T, in every way you can think.
The only advantages a I/T has over a FMT, are fast progression, more spell slots, and better spells and wands saves (being a Gnome).
But then again, I've not said which one is more powerful among these two. Both have their individual strengths and weaknesses. My point is just that FMTs can do all the things an I/T can do, and most of them are done by the FMT probably in a better and more effective way.
By the way, how's the weather in Icewind Dale?
But this is just ridiculous and we should stick to legal combos.
2: THAC0 is largely irrelevant, unconscious and held enemies don't have AC, wands don't care about it, and after hitting level 7 spells (3e6 for I/T, 4.5e6 for F/M/T) the I/T should be going nova on every encounter with Project Image, which cannot attack.
3: The difference in THAC0 and APR, including specialisation: BG1: 3, 1/2. SoD: 3, 1. SoA: 4, 1. ToB cap: 8, 3/2. The I/T gets more bonus spells than the F/M/T gets THAC0 advantage.
4: The I/T can reach 9 APR. Firetooth +3 (2) + Belm (2) + Gauntlets (+1/2) + iHaste. 9 APR allows one instant spell to be cast each round while attacking. 9 APR + spell is pretty comparable to 10 APR in terms of "raw damage".
5: The I/T at all points of time have access to higher caster level, more spell slots, and frequently higher level spell access, letting them pull off more spell combinations at any given time, with more thief skills at any given time. The only thing "Fighter" adds is the ability to do something that every single class can do slightly better, and slightly expanded gear access pre-HLAs.
Edit: I mean, yeah, if you are playing a no reload I get maxing your char out, and the challenge is to avoid making mistakes. But if you are not, and playing a char that is mathemathically unlikely to lose even if picking a fight with the ToB 5 simultanously, where is the fun? No challenge, no fun!
The Firetooth and B.Dagger get 2D4 base damage dice as well, making them mini piercing Bastard Swords.
Dwarven Defender, that undispellable 93 DR and shorty throws are nice.
Cavalier, that 88 DR and the best immunities are nice.
Fighter/Mage, ability to do anything, and everything.
Which is the most powerful? I don't know.
UAI
hardiness
greater whirlwind
assassination
- with UAI you can use any item in the game, and get a solid AC, and can use spell scrolls
- because of those 24 levels of fighter you will have some decent HP
- and then with some select items ( like ring of gaxx thanks to it's invisibility and haste abilities ) you can go on a backstab frenzy with a huge amount of attacks per round ( if dual wielding ) plus there are also rings of invisibility and a crap load of potions of invisibility
- also with 24 levels of kensai thats +8 to hit/ to damage with the emphasis on the to damage part, +8 to damage x5 back stab is an extra 40 damage per hit, not too shabby
For me, the ideal character is a low-input, high-output character rather than a high-input, high-output character.