That depends. For example, if is end game, fighter mage is the best. Improved Haste + Black Blade of Disaster + Stoneskin + Tenser transformation = GG easy but a sorc can cast high tier spells earlier
That is how this spells is good for a Dragon Disciple. A Fighter/Mage can attack more times/round...
2: THAC0 is largely irrelevant, unconscious and held enemies don't have AC, wands don't care about it, and after hitting level 7 spells (3e6 for I/T, 4.5e6 for F/M/T) the I/T should be going nova on every encounter with Project Image, which cannot attack.
Wait...what?
Held enemies do not have AC? Why have I not been using Hold Person more????
in 2nd edition held enemies get hit automatically ( but you can't score critical hits on them ) in 3rd edition held enemies lose their dexterity bonus ( and have a further -2 penalty i believe? )
in the bg/iwd series, crowd control spells are absolutely king, hence the reason why Xan is one of the best mages in bg1 because of the awesome penalty he gives enemies for his enchantment spells
@SorcererV1ct0r: Is that a dual-class or multi-class? If it's a dual-class, what level was it? I was criticizing the efficacy of a high-level dual-class. A multi-class fighter/mage is strong at just about every point in every game (hence my vote for the fighter/mage), while a solo fighter dual-classed to mage would have to spend a rather long time as a low-level mage, with that period expanding the longer you wait to dual-class.
In a solo run, the sorcerer does have some meaningful advantages over a fighter/mage. Mage scrolls are very scarce in IWD, and Spell Immunity is only available at the end of Trials of the Luremaster. Plus, the scrolls come in very late; a solo fighter/mage will spend much of the game unable to use his or her higher-level spell slots.
I take it that that video depicts a fighter/mage who was imported from a previous save at the endgame, because a solo fighter/mage would not have access to the Black Blade of Disaster at that point in the game, nor would a solo fighter/mage have level 9 spell slots at that point unless you were on Heart of Fury Mode.
Importing characters changes the power balance dramatically.
I take it that that video depicts a fighter/mage who was imported from a previous save at the endgame(...)y.
No, the video is a dragon disciple solo at insane difficulty but you convinced me. In a "single playtrought" in OC sorcerer/dragon disciple will be the best class, but if you play a lot and get high levels, Fighter/Mage will be the best. PS : Can i change my vote?
It pains me to say that but obviously kensai dual mage...
Allow me to release you from your pain: Berserker->Mages are stronger, and it's not even close.
why? a mage can cast enough protection spells that they are immune to everything ( so berserk isn't needed ) and kensai's get the to hit/to damage every 3 levels, plus the improved speed factor, so they are going to hit faster and harder
the only time that this might be an issue is in a dead magic zone, but even with that being said, if you are going solo you can probably avoid those levels of watchers keep ( since you will already be at the max level cap no doubt )
It pains me to say that but obviously kensai dual mage...
Allow me to release you from your pain: Berserker->Mages are stronger, and it's not even close.
why? a mage can cast enough protection spells that they are immune to everything ( so berserk isn't needed ) and kensai's get the to hit/to damage every 3 levels, plus the improved speed factor, so they are going to hit faster and harder
the only time that this might be an issue is in a dead magic zone, but even with that being said, if you are going solo you can probably avoid those levels of watchers keep ( since you will already be at the max level cap no doubt )
Helmets, gauntlets, instant cast defensive buff that works long before you pick up SI, and can't be taken down by rival mages. The bonuses from the extra gear alone largely offset the Kensai's sole benefit for essentially no downside.
I don't consider dual anything into mage to be within the top three, let alone strongest, but Kensai duals are overrated.
mmm i no knows, even though kensais cant use helmets, they can still use iounstones, and gauntlet wise, the only thing that comes to mind in which a berserker can even have a realistic advantage over is the bracers of blinding ( binding? ) speed, ( pretty much all the other gauntlets give to hit or to hit/to damage bonuses which the kensai already gets, and some of the other gauntlets are just lol worthy to be honest) but realistically if you have a ring of gaxx and if you have some wizard levels ( and as of v2.5 oils of speed now give improved haste instead of haste ) gear wise is meh, at best
also no matter what level you are dual classing your fighter type over to wizerd, it only takes 135 000 XP to hit level 5 spells, and no matter where that is in the game, if you are going han solo you will hit level 5 at warp speed
even though the berserker is my favourite class of all time, and kensai may indeed be over rated, kensais are still more powerful
Fighter->Mage dual is probably the most powerful. Mainly because mages/sorcerers are crazy powerful at high levels anyway and a fighter->mage dual is just a mage with all the fighter goodies. Fighter hp, access to fighter weapons, multiple apr, possibly grandmaster proficiency, possibly berserk... all that without any downsides compared to a normal generalist mage. Not even the dual classing downtime is really a downside. You get enough experience to get to a level where you can pull your weight just from scribing spells and then you're just playing a mage with a buttload of HP for a while. The horror.
Fighter->Mage dual is probably the most powerful. Mainly because mages/sorcerers are crazy powerful at high levels anyway and a fighter->mage dual is just a mage with all the fighter goodies. Fighter hp, access to fighter weapons, multiple apr, possibly grandmaster proficiency, possibly berserk... all that without any downsides compared to a normal generalist mage. Not even the dual classing downtime is really a downside. You get enough experience to get to a level where you can pull your weight just from scribing spells and then you're just playing a mage with a buttload of HP for a while. The horror.
I agree as a solo character. In a party the fighter skills just aren't necessary. Access to higher level spells earlier is much more important than being able to use a bow when you have five other characters that can potentially do it better. In a party it's hard to beat a sorcerer since they don't have to plan out their spells in advance. I still like my ranger/cleric though, since they can solo OR be a solid addition to any party you can conceive!
One might say that the Berserker/Mage's rage immunities do not matter because a Kensai/Mage can already make itself immune to anything without needing the Enrage ability. I have several counterarguments:
1. Rage immunities are comprehensive. You can get immunity to multiple different disablers using a single option, which reduces the need for metaknowledge. 2. Rage can be activated once or twice per day; it is not limited like potion-based immunities are. 3. Rage immunities are undispellable. 4. Rage activates instantly, unlike certain other spells. 5. Rage is available at level 1, while Spell Immunity and similar spells take much longer to achieve (some are completely unavailable in BG1). 6. Rage obviates the need for dedicating limited spell slots to defensive spells. 7. Rage grants immunities to things that a normal fighter/mage would need special means to attain. Spell Immunity, for example, cannot block Psionic Blast or Death Gaze, and no mage spell can block the unconsciousness effect of Wing Buffet unless you're playing the vanilla game where Spell Shield is bugged to block it.
The Kensai/Mage must dedicate more spell slots, must spend more time pre-buffing for a fight, must have deeper knowledge of the next fight, must be at a higher level, and/or must have access to more items in order to match the defenses of a Berserker/Mage who only needs a single spell cast in a single round to attain immunity to all disabling effects.
Also, the Berserker/Mage can get damage and THAC0 bonuses from gauntlets; damage resistances and THAC0 and saving throw bonuses from helms; and immunities and AC and MR bonuses from shields. Finally, the Berserker/Mage can use all forms of ranged weapons, including overpowered options like Arrows of Dispelling, Arrows of Detonation, Acid Arrows, Darts +5, the Firetooth crossbow alongside the Scorcher Ammunition (the best means of dealing damage in the entire game), Darts of Stunning, and Darts of Wounding.
Plus, the Berserker is far sturdier during the pre-dual-classing period.
Kensai/Mages are better at dealing damage up until the player gets the Scorcher Ammunition. However, they have a much harder time gaining immunities and they lack access to some of the best items in the game.
Inquisitors will take down your protections instantly prevent you from hiding and roflstomp you with Carsomyr. The hardest opponents became squishy target practice. It gets my vote.
mmm i no knows, even though kensais cant use helmets, they can still use iounstones, and gauntlet wise, the only thing that comes to mind in which a berserker can even have a realistic advantage over is the bracers of blinding ( binding? ) speed, ( pretty much all the other gauntlets give to hit or to hit/to damage bonuses which the kensai already gets, and some of the other gauntlets are just lol worthy to be honest) but realistically if you have a ring of gaxx and if you have some wizard levels ( and as of v2.5 oils of speed now give improved haste instead of haste ) gear wise is meh, at best
Sure, alright, but how much hit/damage are we talking about with a Kensage? Some end game Ken 21 -> Mage 22?
That gives +7/+7 in exchange for no crit immunity, and in terms of "advantage" over the Berserker, both get GM, 23-24 strength, the 'zerker gets +1/2 APR from the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Spec. (Kensai advantage +5/+6 damage -1/2 APR), both are toting a +5 weapon (conservatively speaking)...
Nobody (should be) disputing the fact that the Kensai dual would deal more damage, but is +5 damage when you're already dealing 30-35 damage per hit going to significantly change anything? Are there any enemies that actually require you to damage race them to win? Heck, the way HP is you might take just as many hits to kill a guy either way.
You're sacrificing far less for Berserker for almost as much damage and a whole host of other useful stuff while needing to stay "fighter" for far fewer levels to maximise your mage.
Compared to tabletop, these games are maybe a little harder to rank classes in because we get to reroll for stats until we're satisfied. Otherwise, that'd be another argument in favor of Sorcerer, who hardly needs any good stats at all to do their job, while F/M/T and especially F/M/C are MAD as all get out. That feels like it should matter, but in practice kind of doesn't.
Need to say that in my experience, Wildmages are the most powerful near the end. The ability to cast level nine spells by using a level 1 slot, that you will have abundant amounts of near the end game is just awesome. The chances of the spell going awry also lessen as you level up, plus chaos shields etc... Problem is... They are damn dangerous. They will wipe out your party, destroy your gold, change your gender and drop cows on your head.
A more stable power combo is the cleric/mage. Sequencer lets you do some fun stuff. The extra pip and hp for a f/m/c does not seem to matter so much after buffs.
...
Plus loving all the multiclass and dual class illusionists. I see you fellow gnome powa playas!
Comments
That is how this spells is good for a Dragon Disciple. A Fighter/Mage can attack more times/round...
Held enemies do not have AC? Why have I not been using Hold Person more????
in the bg/iwd series, crowd control spells are absolutely king, hence the reason why Xan is one of the best mages in bg1 because of the awesome penalty he gives enemies for his enchantment spells
In a solo run, the sorcerer does have some meaningful advantages over a fighter/mage. Mage scrolls are very scarce in IWD, and Spell Immunity is only available at the end of Trials of the Luremaster. Plus, the scrolls come in very late; a solo fighter/mage will spend much of the game unable to use his or her higher-level spell slots.
I take it that that video depicts a fighter/mage who was imported from a previous save at the endgame, because a solo fighter/mage would not have access to the Black Blade of Disaster at that point in the game, nor would a solo fighter/mage have level 9 spell slots at that point unless you were on Heart of Fury Mode.
Importing characters changes the power balance dramatically.
PS : Can i change my vote?
the only time that this might be an issue is in a dead magic zone, but even with that being said, if you are going solo you can probably avoid those levels of watchers keep ( since you will already be at the max level cap no doubt )
I don't consider dual anything into mage to be within the top three, let alone strongest, but Kensai duals are overrated.
also no matter what level you are dual classing your fighter type over to wizerd, it only takes 135 000 XP to hit level 5 spells, and no matter where that is in the game, if you are going han solo you will hit level 5 at warp speed
even though the berserker is my favourite class of all time, and kensai may indeed be over rated, kensais are still more powerful
1. Rage immunities are comprehensive. You can get immunity to multiple different disablers using a single option, which reduces the need for metaknowledge.
2. Rage can be activated once or twice per day; it is not limited like potion-based immunities are.
3. Rage immunities are undispellable.
4. Rage activates instantly, unlike certain other spells.
5. Rage is available at level 1, while Spell Immunity and similar spells take much longer to achieve (some are completely unavailable in BG1).
6. Rage obviates the need for dedicating limited spell slots to defensive spells.
7. Rage grants immunities to things that a normal fighter/mage would need special means to attain. Spell Immunity, for example, cannot block Psionic Blast or Death Gaze, and no mage spell can block the unconsciousness effect of Wing Buffet unless you're playing the vanilla game where Spell Shield is bugged to block it.
The Kensai/Mage must dedicate more spell slots, must spend more time pre-buffing for a fight, must have deeper knowledge of the next fight, must be at a higher level, and/or must have access to more items in order to match the defenses of a Berserker/Mage who only needs a single spell cast in a single round to attain immunity to all disabling effects.
Also, the Berserker/Mage can get damage and THAC0 bonuses from gauntlets; damage resistances and THAC0 and saving throw bonuses from helms; and immunities and AC and MR bonuses from shields. Finally, the Berserker/Mage can use all forms of ranged weapons, including overpowered options like Arrows of Dispelling, Arrows of Detonation, Acid Arrows, Darts +5, the Firetooth crossbow alongside the Scorcher Ammunition (the best means of dealing damage in the entire game), Darts of Stunning, and Darts of Wounding.
Plus, the Berserker is far sturdier during the pre-dual-classing period.
Kensai/Mages are better at dealing damage up until the player gets the Scorcher Ammunition. However, they have a much harder time gaining immunities and they lack access to some of the best items in the game.
That gives +7/+7 in exchange for no crit immunity, and in terms of "advantage" over the Berserker, both get GM, 23-24 strength, the 'zerker gets +1/2 APR from the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Spec. (Kensai advantage +5/+6 damage -1/2 APR), both are toting a +5 weapon (conservatively speaking)...
Nobody (should be) disputing the fact that the Kensai dual would deal more damage, but is +5 damage when you're already dealing 30-35 damage per hit going to significantly change anything? Are there any enemies that actually require you to damage race them to win? Heck, the way HP is you might take just as many hits to kill a guy either way.
You're sacrificing far less for Berserker for almost as much damage and a whole host of other useful stuff while needing to stay "fighter" for far fewer levels to maximise your mage.
A more stable power combo is the cleric/mage. Sequencer lets you do some fun stuff. The extra pip and hp for a f/m/c does not seem to matter so much after buffs.
...
Plus loving all the multiclass and dual class illusionists. I see you fellow gnome powa playas!