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Oil of Speed ->Potion of Speed *Update*

GreenerGreener Member Posts: 385
As per the AD&D 2nd edition Dungeon Master Guide

Comments, questions, concerns?

Potion of Speed
This potion increases the movement and combat capabilities of the imbiber by 100%. Thus, a movement rate of 9 becomes 18, and a character normally able to attack once per round attacks twice. This does not reduce spellcasting time, however. Use of a speed potion will cause fatigue almost instantaneously, but the other effects last for 1 turn.

STATISTICS:

Special: Doubles movement and attack rates
Duration: 1 turn

Weight: 1

RaduzielThacoBell

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    What's the question? Isn't that what the vanilla Oil of Speed does?

  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 385

    What's the question? Isn't that what the vanilla Oil of Speed does?

    No, I believe this one actually doubles the APR and now adds a fatigue penalty of 4.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049

    What's the question? Isn't that what the vanilla Oil of Speed does?

    The game CLAIMED it did, but it didn't actually. Beamdog fixed it, and people whined, so we are stuck with the broken version.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    I don't understand the difference. Maybe just because I'm not aware of what was broken.

    EDIT - oh I just noticed the bottom of the description. Yeah I am not down with changing these to double attack rates. Oil of Speed with only +1 APR is already the most powerful combat potion in the game. And among the cheapest. You're talking about giving fighters the equivalent of a 6th level spell, for a couple hundred GP?

    Might as well make the Potion of Power mimic Tenser's Transformation, or boost the Potion of Explosions to 15d6 damage...

  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 385
    edited May 2018

    I don't understand the difference. Maybe just because I'm not aware of what was broken.

    EDIT - oh I just noticed the bottom of the description. Yeah I am not down with changing these to double attack rates. Oil of Speed with only +1 APR is already the most powerful combat potion in the game. And among the cheapest. You're talking about giving fighters the equivalent of a 6th level spell, for a couple hundred GP?

    Might as well make the Potion of Power mimic Tenser's Transformation, or boost the Potion of Explosions to 15d6 damage...

    I appreciate you comments, my intension was not to make an over powered item but to re-create the AD&D 2nd edition version. Of note the duration of effect has been shorted from 1 hour to 1 turn, and a fatigue penalty similar to the haste spell has been added.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    edited May 2018
    Doubling APR with no fatigue penalty is original BG1 behavior. It was only in BG2 that the potion only gave +1 APR, because, before BG2, all haste effects were Improved Haste effects by default, but the BG2 developers never updated the right parameter in the Oil of Speed haste effect. Only in the v2.5 update of EE is Oil of Speed fixed to match its description and BG1 behavior.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehrjoluv
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    Yeah sorry, not trying to discourage, I just completely missed the operative part of the posted description, and then reacted out loud when understanding dawned. :tongue:

    So wait: Oil of Speed in v2.5 is going to be Improved Haste instead of Haste?? That's annoying. But then again I prefer SR and IR's version, so it won't affect me anyway.

    semiticgod
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,955


    So wait: Oil of Speed in v2.5 is going to be Improved Haste instead of Haste?? That's annoying. But then again I prefer SR and IR's version, so it won't affect me anyway.

    It was in the Beta, but due to 'popular demand' so to speak, it was reverted back again.

    ThacoBell
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    Ah. To be fair, that's a pretty weird change to make at this late date.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    Yeah, restoring original functionality is "weird". -sarcasm-

    StummvonBordwehr
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    edited May 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    Yeah, restoring original functionality is "weird". -sarcasm-

    For better readability: at this late date.

    It's been what, six years since BGEE has been out? This is a really, really simple change, it could have been done at any point. Just flip parameter2 from 0 to 1 in the .ITM file's Haste effect. If there's been such demand for it, a mod could have been made in literally three minutes. But I've never once seen it discussed here or at G3 or SHS. So yeah, it is in fact weird that some dev woke up in 2018 and thought to himself: "huh, maybe we should make potions of speed work the way they did in vanilla BG1."

    Moreover, it's entirely unclear that "restoring original functionality" has any meaning in this sense. See those kits? See those proficiencies? This is not BG1. BGEE is, and has been form its beginning, a polished version of TuTu. BG1 content in the BG2 engine. The "functionality" has always been, and was always meant to be, BG2 functionality.

    Speaking of which, how would this change be squared with the potions in BG2? In BG2 the "original functionality" is to only provide +1 APR; so what happens, Charname goes down to Athkatla and they don't have a decent alchemist down there? No enterprising businessman has thought to import the super-awesome Potions of Speed from Baldur's Gate? Why are the potions crappier in the game that takes you to deity levels?

    You can argue all day long about whether you like such a change, or want such a change, or whatever. All I'm saying is, to make such a change in game very explicitly meant to operate with BG2 rules, and to do so six years after the game's release, would be weird. Sorry dude, but I stand by that assertion, and your "-sarcasm-" is not a very good counterargument.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    So is it going to be haste or improved haste in the final (not beta) v2.5? I thought it was the latter.

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 818
    Lets not fight over this.

    As I recall Beamdog wasnt aware of the history about the potions. It was pointed out - the in game description validated the point - and they decided to fix the “bug”. The intention was good, and it should be regarded thusly.

    Each time things are changed it creates a stir, bit mods and self moderation easily fixes this. Beamdog have been kind to this game so far, so lets assume that they will continue to do so - even whereabouts they try to fix the bugs we have come to love...

    I have played the game for many years, and the kits may break somethings in BG:ee. But in days of old you played the first game as an ironclad bowwielder, and then come BG2 imported a Kensai with GM in katanas. The game has always has its ways - and ways to twist it. Let each (wo)man play their own game.

    Grond0JuliusBorisov
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    @subtledoctor The description has always stated that the potion doubles apr. So yes, it IS weird to go against what the game has claimed all these years.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    edited May 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    @subtledoctor The description has always stated that the potion doubles apr. So yes, it IS weird to go against what the game has claimed all these years.

    So it does. I never noticed that. Anyway, like I say, I really don't care how the .ITM ends up, it will not affect me at all. I'm ONLY pointing out that the implication is that there has been a bug in BG2, ever since its initial release, from 2001 right up until 2018, and in all that time nobody has called it a bug (even in this thread nobody has called it a bug) and nobody has thought to discuss it or fix it. And as I said, fixing it would be very easy, and honestly if Beamdog leaves it at +1 and you guys are put out, I will make you a mod to fix it ;) It's just weird to suddenly decide it's a bug after 17 years. But hey, if that's what Beamdog thinks it's fine with me. People will be able to play it however they prefer, regardless.

    I'm just going to call it out as weird. :tongue:

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    I never called it out simply because I trusted what the game was telling me.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    I noticed the description was wrong, but I never thought of it as a bug because I only noticed it when I'd already been playing the game for a decade. The only reason I even realized the potion was supposed to double APR (as opposed to the description having a typo) was because I noticed that haste in the original Icewind Dale doubled the effects of bard songs and let the player cast two spells in a single round. Before then, I didn't know doubling APR was even possible before BG2.

    ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,735
    The game was stuffed with instances where the description of an effect in the game didn't match the actual implementation. In most cases players assumed that the error was in the description and therefore wouldn't have expected things to change. The reason there has been concern over the oil of speed is that:
    - on the one hand the game description is supported as correct by the original PnP documentation, as well as vanilla BG1 behavior, giving Beamdog good grounds for suggesting a change.
    - on the other, the easy availability and low cost of oils of speed means this would be a major change to the balance of power in BG2EE.

    Remember that in vanilla BG1 there was no support for dual wielding and grand mastery, though available, had no impact on APR. Oils of speed were also pretty scarce in the game (at least until you arrive in Baldur's Gate). The net effect of that was that the difference between a doubling of APR and just adding an extra attack was relatively small.

    In BG2 the difference in practice is considerably greater, which suggests to me that the original nerfing of oils of speed in BG2 may well have been deliberate rather than accidental. I rarely use them anyway and I tend to accept whatever treatment is included in the game (rather than modding it to work as I think it should), so personally I don't really mind whatever Beamdog does on this issue. However, I understand they're not planning to go ahead with the change and think that's a sensible choice for players more generally.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisov
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,955
    @semiticgod, I dunno if I can link directly to one specific post, but this is what @JuliusBorisov said in this thread: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/67525/the-2-5-update-beta-is-here-test-play-let-us-know-what-you-think/p12

    Adul said:

    Yeah, I'm also not sure why the oil of speed's behavior was changed, instead of its description. If it's always worked one way and it was fine the way it worked, there was no reason to change it. It was one of the best potions in BG1 even without the buff, now it's not only overpowered, but also makes two weapon fighting more overpowered because it now gets double the amount extra attacks with the oil of speed. That's way too many extra attacks for dual wielding fighters in BG1.

    So, based on the community's excellent feedback, it has been desided to return to old +1 APR bonus from this potion. The description of the potion will be updated accordingly.

    Thanks a lot to everyone who shared their opinions on this subject.

    JuliusBorisov
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