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Discussion of "Trash" Feats/Spells/Etc

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Comments

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,616
    edited July 11
    Tresset said:

    Hardly a trash feat, but sometimes I wonder about Lasting Inspiration... I mean, a bard song that lasts 10 turns sounds really good on paper, but in practice I wonder if it may actually be better to have it last for a shorter duration so it can be reapplied to grant more bonus HP more frequently or to do damage more often in the case of Curse Song. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Is Lasting Inspiration worth it or not?

    You're right; it's not worth it. By the time a bard gets Lasting Inspiration they can use their bard song a lot anyway, and Curse Song can be used at will. It's better to just reapply the bard song when it wears off.

    Edit: Never mind, I didn't see @Shadooow 's post.

    Tresset
  • ProontProont Member Posts: 68
    edited July 12
    Tresset said:

    Hardly a trash feat, but sometimes I wonder about Lasting Inspiration... I mean, a bard song that lasts 10 turns sounds really good on paper, but in practice I wonder if it may actually be better to have it last for a shorter duration so it can be reapplied to grant more bonus HP more frequently or to do damage more often in the case of Curse Song. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Is Lasting Inspiration worth it or not?

    I prefer Lasting Inspiration. I like not having to reapply bard song as often. And I find the other boosts from Bard Song more useful than the bonus HP.

    Post edited by Proont on
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    Lasting Inspiration is more of a convenience thing, otherwise you could just take Lingering Song which extends the song to a minute and a half but doesn't take an epic feat slot. There are modules and persistent worlds which have modified bard song and sometimes also rest limitations which makes it far more useful.

    To get an indication of what should make it useful, as always consider the original design. In this case you can refer to NWN2 to get an idea of the various songs and inspirations. The difference is that bard effects are usually maintained by concentration, and when they stop they either immediately cease or persist for a number of rounds. Lasting Inspiration as the name suggests extends the time that it continues to persist after the effect has ceased. The biggest use for this is to stack multiple inspiration effects.

    Effectively NWN's bard song ability is already a composite of the various inspiration effects, with slightly different bonuses. So some of the benefit you would get you already get for free.

    dTdProont
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    I don't understand most prestige classes. They are un intuitive and confusing.

    Examples:

    Red Dragon Disciple:
    RDD is focused on giving you strength and some sturdiness, yet requires you to be a bard or sorcerer in the process. How can that work? A RDD doesn't even gain extra proficiencies so you're stuck with poor spell casting, and some tankiness but no real way to fight. Also breath weapon only once per day is shameful.

    Blackguard:
    Looks and feels like an evil counterpart to a paladin, has heavy armor proficiency, cleave requirement which needs high strength. Yet it had Hide as a prerequisite skill (which is a dex skill hindered by armor). The laughing part comes when you find out that Hide isn't even a class skill for the Blackguard.

    Arcane Archer
    Awesome class, but why does it require arcane spellcasting? To force people to take 1 level of wizard into their overall fighter/archer build? The synergy with a spell caster is non existant.

    Assasin
    Cool idea, but isn't this just a worse version of a rogue? Less skill points, less rogue feats for a relatively weak on hit effect and some minor spells. Nothing a rogue with some spell scrolls can achieve. Seems a bit too narrow for it to be a real class.

    These aren't the only ones but they're at the top of my head.

    Maybe someone can help me. Out here and explain, but aren't these just weird.

    StummvonBordwehrGM_ODABelgarathMTH
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited August 3
    This is mostly another poor implementation or 3.0 vs 3.5 issue. In 3.5:

    Dragon Disciple: in 3.5 you get some extra spells slots, overally more/better bonuses and the breath weapon is unlimited. Still under lvl 20 cap you would be right that the class isn't extremely powerful and the synergy with sorcerer is quite poor. Synergy with bard on the other way... And this changes heavily in epic levels environment where the disadvantages of RDD are easily overcome which makes it one of the strongest classes. But yes is it a bit silly that most builds are going to be 1bard/rdd or 1sorcerer/rdd...

    Blackguard: I wouldn't consider 13str you need as high strength and 5 ranks in Hide aren't big deal as well. In 3.5 Hide is class skill so in theory a hiding would work without armor, but since he doesn't get also move silently the class is much better suited to full armor and STR based builds than dexterity and stealth. Also note that in PnP blackguard is a divine spellcaster with his own spellbook and that makes the class much more powerful and fun.

    Arcane Archer: PnP has bit more synergy with the arcane spellcasting that is required, though I agree the requirement for arcane spellcasting doesn't have that much sense apart of the prestige class name as there are no benefits exclusive to spellcasting. Either way, AA is very useful with any caster class and makes a strong character even under lvl 20 cap. In epic levels, this class is absurdly good with basically any combination you can think of.

    Assassin: In NWN yes, in PnP it is a spellcaster with arcane spells and thus able to become Arcane Archer and (Red) Dragon Disciple (not Pale Master as PM in PnP is purely spellcaster class and requires spells not on assassin's list, but he can become Arcane Trickster). He gets HIPS at lvl 8 as well. But because in NWN he gets nothing of this except a few specific spells gained as feats that can be cast once per day this class is heavily underpowered indeed.

    GM_ODAronaldoProont
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    edited August 3
    Makes a lot of sense.

    Dear guys at beamdog - would you take this as a suggestion and change these prestige classes for. The better?

    I would totally play these classes if they were as good as you described them

    Post edited by Kranyum on
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    Is applying poison to your weapon actually really trash?

    Some modules had poisons to apply but it only works the first time you hit an enemy.

    So why should I spend 1 round applying poison for something with a minor DC and effect to maybe happen?

    Even if you think of the scenario where you apply the poison before combat, it's still very expensive to have a chance to grant a small reduction in a stat compared to say buying a potion which always works and it's a buff for you.

    Is this something that's hard-coded or can we make poisons last for a duration on a weapon instead just 1 hit?

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited August 9
    Kranyum said:

    Is applying poison to your weapon actually really trash?

    Yes it is. It is just pointless to do and the DC is so low that it won't work most of the time. On top of that, even if the target loses saving throw and poison is applied it has barely any effects (at best monster loses 1ab or 1ac or few hitpoints or 1DC of spells which is equal to the power of lvl 1 spells). Poisons and diseases overally are weak and their only usage is against player. There is no point to cast poison/disease against monster when this monster is going to die in next 2 rounds. Poison and disease is most effective in long term situations, something that will never going to apply for monsters.

    Imo poisons and diseases are bit badly designed in DnD.

    As for custom content - it is not hardcoded, weapon poison is an on-hit spell and this can be edited, likewise poison items casts spell Apply Poison which can also be edited. Just note that multiple onhits on same item doesn't work. Only one is fired so poison from weapon, if made for longer duration will be incompatible with flame weapon/darkfire. But you can make it so that the poison items will not apply OnHit spell but for example direct acid damage instead... Another thing is that unless you use Community Patch and enable that option with PC Widget Tool, poisons doesn't stack, so you won't be able to apply the penalty of the poison more than once on same target which is another thing that decreases the usefulness of poisons...

    DerpCity
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    edited August 9
    Oh man, I knew it. So many cool stuff in this game, in theory... But in practice they all suck...

  • DrakonDrakon Member Posts: 19
    Kranyum said:

    Oh man, I knew it. So many cool stuff in this game, in theory... But in practice they all suck...

    Don't blame the game, blame D&D 3rd edition

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited August 10
    Drakon said:

    Don't blame the game, blame D&D 3rd edition

    Mostly yes which is why I don't understand the fondness of this ruleset. Why there are so many players requiring things to be per 3.0 disliking 3.5?

    Another thing is that while we mostly have the possibilities to change things in way we want in this game and that is this game's biggest feature almost no player is interested in fan-made modifications. Even if you make exactly what the players wants it is no good unless its official... So in practice the ability to modify game is mostly used on PWs only.

    Post edited by Shadooow on
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    The reason people want an official version is its already hard enough to understand this bloated ruleset already. Took me years to get into it and I still don't understand 100% of it.

    I'm sure a properly fan made mod would gain traction if the changes were properly explained.

    I tried installing PRC + CEP and some things were so ridiculous I couldn't take it seriously, like all the lame named new classes (anti-paladin, bowman, healer... Wtf) and the loads of unintuitive stuff like feats you could take but don't do anything if you don't meet the requirements.

    That's why it needs proper integration and solid design

    Grymlorde
  • TerrorbleTerrorble Member Posts: 52
    It's a convenience feat and I used it many times. The nice part about it is you can change what it does by editing the bard song script (but I think we're focused more on things we can't easily change here).

  • Drewbert_ahoyDrewbert_ahoy Member Posts: 65
    Blackguard:
    Looks and feels like an evil counterpart to a paladin, has heavy armor proficiency, cleave requirement which needs high strength. Yet it had Hide as a prerequisite skill (which is a dex skill hindered by armor). The laughing part comes when you find out that Hide isn't even a class skill for the Blackguard.


    Hide isn't, but the sneak attack damage from both classes stacks. Also, it's common to pool skill points and dump them into UMD taking one additional rogue level later at high level.

    Arcane Archer
    Awesome class, but why does it require arcane spellcasting? To force people to take 1 level of wizard into their overall fighter/archer build? The synergy with a spell caster is non existant.


    I rather like bard/AA. It's a build with lots of utility and party buffs. Elven warrior/mage is a common enough fantasy trope which people seem to like. The melee version of the AA would be the bladesinger, which is a prestige class I would like to see added.

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    RDD in 3.0 and 3.5 are practically identical besides that 3.0 gives scaling hp dice increase and 3.5 sets it to d12 instead. They both get bonus spell slots, and they both can only use breath weapon once per day. The reason for RDD is not for dragon magic (there are other prestige classes for that) but rather to turn the spontaneous caster into a half-dragon, acquiring the half-dragon template bit by bit with a little extra bonus on top. Normally it would cost 3 effective levels (no HD) with no hp/saves/skills or bonus spell slots, causing your character to trail behind the party.

    Arcane archer is also supposed to be able to cast their spells through their arrows which is the synergy it's supposed to have. The fireball arrow is what NWN developers made because they didn't want to implement the system. Magic rating variant increases the caster level, otherwise there are feats that do which means the option isn't too bad, with spells reaching up to 1100ft and more with feats.


    Differences between 3.0 and 3.5 are very minor and people enjoy over exaggerating the differences when in some cases it's a simple a change in editing and layout to make rules easier to find or easier to parse. The fact things like poisons aren't ever useful in a basic NWN game has much more to do with NWN than a difference in 3.0 and 3.5 rules as they're the same in both.

    dTdDerpCityProont
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,179
    edited August 28
    Shadooow said:

    Drakon said:

    Don't blame the game, blame D&D 3rd edition

    Mostly yes which is why I don't understand the fondness of this ruleset. Why there are so many players requiring things to be per 3.0 disliking 3.5?

    Another thing is that while we mostly have the possibilities to change things in way we want in this game and that is this game's biggest feature almost no player is interested in fan-made modifications. Even if you make exactly what the players wants it is no good unless its official... So in practice the ability to modify game is mostly used on PWs only.

    I would love to have the 3.5 ruleset for the single player campaigns instead of 3.0. If you know a way to do so, please let me know and I'll gladly embrace it.

    Edit: And everything that makes the game behaves closer to what PnP says is also welcome (like your change to the way Initiative works).

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    Raduziel said:

    I would love to have the 3.5 ruleset for the single player campaigns instead of 3.0. If you know a way to do so, please let me know and I'll gladly embrace it.

    Edit: And everything that makes the game behaves closer to what PnP says is also welcome (like your change to the way Initiative works).

    https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/hakpak/35-edition-balance-changes-bug-fixes-ai-improvements-and-more

    this should work for NWN:EE, note that this is not my project and I am not using it myself because I feel its needlessly too strict in some things and using too many ugly workarounds - last time I tried it didn't even let me level up my new character and I was being constantly delevelled to lvl 1 which was very annoying

    but give it a shot...

    Raduziel
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