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Lack of evil clerics in BG

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  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Monty is also pretty mean with a sling, since he gets bonus THAC0 from being a halfling.

    [Deleted User]KidCarnival
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    Bhaaldog said:

    There are people on the forum who do not "like" Viconia?

    I don't really like Viconia much, either. ;) I mean, it's a great character (I love Dark Elves, conversevly to the OP), very interesting but she really is lacking as a Cleric, imho. Viconia is a char that needs a decent amount of levels to really become powerful; and you'll be stuck with 1 APR, disastrous STR, and low HP!

    Then again, I am sort of Warrior-damaged, prefering to mix virtually any class with Fighter! ;D Viconia is sorta like Aerie in BG2, except she doesn't have the wonderful protections and mage abilities to back up her cruddy stats! :>

  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    edited March 2013
    @NocturneN

    Comparing Viconia to Aerie is one of the worst things to do! Have you not seen the support this Cleric has here?! Blasphemy!

    I've said it at least four times now. Give Viconia a little love ( Gauntlets of Ogre Power, at least Ankheg Armor, Stupifier/Mace+2 ) and she lub u rong time. Put a ring or two on those fingers ( Ring of Holiness and a +2 RoP ) and you have one tough cookie. Want someone who not only can tank with the above, but can resist pretty much all magic? Give her the Cloak of Balduran to boost her up to 75% MR, around -10 AC. Keep going? Okay. Give her the Tower Shield+2 ( whatever it's called with +4 vs Missiles ), and Boots of Avoidance with that Elves Bane girdle for what, -11 Missile and -3 Piercing? Add another AC if you duke her out in Full Plate.

    Point is, Viconia's strong from beginning to the end. Comparing her to Aerie...you should be banned!

    Edit: Oh no, I'm not done. All that's not even counting the buffs she provides! Bless, Chant, Remove Fear, Protection from Evil 10', Defensive Harmony...All make-up for her lack of HP. Throw in a Skald Song ( -2 AC, +2 To Hit and +2 Damage ) followed by Dorn's whatever-it-is special ability to do the reverse of Skald Song for darn near every enemy on a map, and voila! Unstoppable.

  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,407
    Yeah IMO Viconia is only underpowered when compared to overpowered min-maxed PCs - compared to other companions she does just fine and ranks with the best in my book.

    In one of my current runs I gave her Ankeg armor and small shield+1 and she's AC -5 at level 4 plus her 50% MR - she weilds the stupifier and a sling and just came through Nashkel mines and Amozans without ever needing to be healed (core roolz).

    (this party consists of Viccy, & 3 PCs - halfling assassin, Dwarf DD and Gnome C/I and Viccy is right out front tanking with the dwarf.)

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I often use dualed Shar-Teel as ranged fighter, and yes, I know there are bracers for ranged weapons - those usually go to Shar-Teel (hence I can't give them to Eldoth; Shar-Teel's dex is good, it's a no brainer who takes dex gloves between the two of them). I just meant that there is no evil NPC who screams "RANGED WEAPON" as much as Coran and Kivan do for good parties, due to no counterpart to the ranger class.

    Not sure why I would give the dex bracers to a cleric tho; Eldoth becomes an excellent archer with them, Kagain an even better tank than he already is - from the clerics, Viconia and Xzar already have good dex (for Viconia, it's even gimping - she has 19 dex, why set it to 18?) and it's waste to give them the dex gloves; Branwen has enough str and con to go into melee, same for Yeslick.

    Eudaemonium
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Eudaemonium
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,131
    NocturneN said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    There are people on the forum who do not "like" Viconia?

    I don't really like Viconia much, either. ;) I mean, it's a great character (I love Dark Elves, conversevly to the OP), very interesting but she really is lacking as a Cleric, imho. Viconia is a char that needs a decent amount of levels to really become powerful; and you'll be stuck with 1 APR, disastrous STR, and low HP!

    Then again, I am sort of Warrior-damaged, prefering to mix virtually any class with Fighter! ;D Viconia is sorta like Aerie in BG2, except she doesn't have the wonderful protections and mage abilities to back up her cruddy stats! :>
    And why would you use Viconia in close combat? She's supposed to be in the back, casting hold person, command, animate dead and healing! Besides, an npc who easily gets an ac of -5 deserves my respect.

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    You can use her as a pretty good close-range tank as well, though, seeing as she can easily get -7 AC, and -10 with some effort. Even with her low CON she works wonders because she barely gets hit.

    [Deleted User]the_spyder
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,407

    You can use her as a pretty good close-range tank as well, though, seeing as she can easily get -7 AC, and -10 with some effort. Even with her low CON she works wonders because she barely gets hit.

    Exactly - low hps are not an issue when you don't get hit.

    Eudaemonium
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Clerics in the game:
    Good: Yeslick, Dynaheir (with 2 wisdom tomes)
    Neutral: Quayle, Branwen
    Evil: Viconia, Tiax, Xzar (with 1 wisdom tome)

    So, there's more evil clerics than good ones ... Throw in Faldorn and there's definitely no need for Viconia or Tiax.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    edited April 2013
    I'm going to take the rep hit: I do not like drow or elves in general very much. They get a lot hype, but I don't see why. I personally find dwarves and half orcs more interesting. It's simply a matter of taste. You may also hate me for not liking Viconia's voiceset very much. It makes no sense to me that she speaks drow (and it doesn't sound "mysterious" or just good to me - it's probably a case like French: the language of love to some, the language of nasal annoyance to others). Drow priestesses are highly educated, so she should speak good common, but with a strong accent due to a lack of practise. Yet she speaks accent free common and falls back into her native language for no reason, when talking to her comrades. She's not stupid, she must realize that it is neccessary they understand each other. If Minsc would slip back into Rashemi when he is enraged, that would make sense to me - it's quite common if people are upset. If Edwin would speak Thayan to himself, that would make sense - he thinks the idiots he travels with can't follow him either way. If Jaheira or Dynaheir would occasionally use foreign words because they don't know the common term or mix it up - also makes sense. But switching between accent free common and drow doesn't.

    However, all that said - Viconia still isn't a bad NPC. Her magic resistance and 19 dex are strong points for her. I still think Xzar and Branwen are the better choices - Xzar can wear armor/shields without the help of other items and can get higher wisdom than any of the other clerics; Branwen is the more versatile one due to her alignment (and also the ability to wear armor/shields). But Viconia is not "bad" and can make a good frontliner, just like the other clerics. If I take her along, I give her sling and Stupifier and she does well both ranged and in melee. She's a bit overrated and hyped due to her race (or, no, her being a female drow - I'm not seeing any Baeloth hype), and I understand why not everyone is crazy about her. But "bad" is a term that simply doesn't apply.

    EudaemoniumGodKaiserHell
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    EudaemoniumKidCarnivallunarStickan
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @Bhaaldog - from lawful evil fanboy to lawful good fangirl: You are may now rant for up to 500 words about Edwin and why Dynaheir and Neera are better mages. ;)

    Eudaemonium[Deleted User]
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199

    @Bhaaldog - from lawful evil fanboy to lawful good fangirl: You are may now rant for up to 500 words about Edwin and why Dynaheir and Neera are better mages. ;)

    You could probably make a good case for Neera at high levels, with massive abuse of Nahal's Reckless Dweomer to chain-cast high-level spells.

  • ZaorZaor Member Posts: 69
    Back to op's concern, There are FAR more choices for evil clerics than good. Good has...er...uh...one multi-class dwarf half way through the game. So many neutral divine casters!

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Lack of evil clerics in bg?
    There is one.
    Unlike say, 5 billion other possible alignment/class combinations.

    What a ridiculous thread.

    GodKaiserHell
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @KidCarnival

    No harm done. Not everyone has the same tastes in NPCs as Bhaaldog or myself. I don't agree with how you think that because she's smart, she should be speaking broken ( or with an accent ) Common. Don't forget that she's probably around 100 or so since she was around when house Do'Urden destroyed how De'Vir, which was even before Drizzt was out of the Underdark waaaaaaaay before the events in the game. So going off of that, it's perfectly logical that she's become fluent in a second or even third language.

    I don't agree because, I know lots of bilingual people here in Texas ( Hispanics ) that do the exact same thing she does. Whether they're doing it just to show off or whatever, I couldn't tell you. Hell, I'd do it too if I knew more than English. Not to mention that she's a very proud Drow, even with deserting the Underdark. So that could be another issue with her speaking her native language at random times.

    And last but not least, to the whole 'more spells' thing with other NPCs. It hardly matters end game. 2-3 level 4 spells is perfectly fine in BG1. 1 Prot from Evil 10', and two Enduring Harmonies is all you need during the 'harder' fights, assuming there is such a thing to begin with. I don't know, I've never seen her total amount of spells as a hindrance. Even with a few less spells than the Mages you can Dual to Cleric, or even a 'better' Cleric around, she's still grade A material and excels beyond what they can do with her MR at 75% and extremely high ( relative to BG1 ) AC.

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    You know what is dumb? A lack of +5 warhammers which set your strength to 25.
    I mean, what if I don't like the crom fayer?

    This is a gaping hole in the game which the developers have clearly overlooked.

    WanderonGodKaiserHellLuigirules
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @Copastetic1985 - I am bilingual, so I compare my own use of language. The longer I speak English, the more likely I am to slip in my native language and use English words; and the less likely I am to use a German word in English sentences. My accent barely changes; even if I speak English every day, I still have it (and I translate since roughly 11 years, I do have practise). I don't doubt that Viconia would have learned another language - she clearly has. It just makes no sense to me to fall back to drow and not have an accent. She had little opportunity to practise common, since she's rarely in social situations. From her backstory, travelling with your party is the first time she spends an extended amount of time with surface dwellers.
    In real life, that would be someone who learned Spanish in school, did a lot of extra work on their own, became far better than school Spanish, but has never spent much time with native speakers. They'd be near-fluent, but you'd hear a difference in the accent.

    This is done with the other NPCs with other native languages. Except for Jaheira, none of them has been away from home for very long. It's Dynaheir's first mission, and likely the same goes for Edwin (if you count their levels in, they have roughly the same experience). Minsc may have travelled on his own before meeting Dynaheir, but certainly had the toughest time to learn a new language. All of them speak fluently, but with an accent. And yes, I know I'm nitpicking. ;)

    Also have to agree with @ajwz. Yeslick is the only good aligned cleric and he's a multiclass. It's a complete pain in the ass to dual Dynaheir and the result isn't as good as Xzar. Jaheira, Branwen and Faldorn are all neutral (and 2 aren't clerics). Evil does have two very good clerics vs. good having a half cleric who isn't available until midgame. If there's a cleric lack, it's a good cleric lack. Neutral and evil can't complain.

  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    edited April 2013
    It's no surprise that the Drow take Human slaves down in the Underdark. I'm sure they have more uses for them than what's been alluded to through the games and other outlets of information concerning the Drow. My theory is much like an ESL teacher in China or another part of the world. Instead of being paid for their work, they're fed and kept alive to provide English lessons/teach English for young Drow.

    I say English fully meaning Common.

  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 412
    edited April 2013
    Bhaaldog said:

    NocturneN said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    There are people on the forum who do not "like" Viconia?

    I don't really like Viconia much, either. ;) I mean, it's a great character (I love Dark Elves, conversevly to the OP), very interesting but she really is lacking as a Cleric, imho. Viconia is a char that needs a decent amount of levels to really become powerful; and you'll be stuck with 1 APR, disastrous STR, and low HP!
    *Speechless*
    I think her low STR, at least, is a little bit annoying, if primarily for carry weight.

    Of course, she's probably your only frontliner with low STR, so giving her the Gauntlets is an obvious move. But this still means that low STR is a reasonable complaint early on IMO.

  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 412
    ajwz said:

    Lack of evil clerics in bg?
    There is one.
    Unlike say, 5 billion other possible alignment/class combinations.

    What a ridiculous thread.

    Why does everyone keep forgetting about Tiax? Evil has 2 clerics, plus Xzar as an extra half-cleric. Evil has a gazillion clerics.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    edited April 2013


    Also have to agree with @ajwz. Yeslick is the only good aligned cleric and he's a multiclass. It's a complete pain in the ass to dual Dynaheir and the result isn't as good as Xzar. Jaheira, Branwen and Faldorn are all neutral (and 2 aren't clerics). Evil does have two very good clerics vs. good having a half cleric who isn't available until midgame. If there's a cleric lack, it's a good cleric lack. Neutral and evil can't complain.

    This I agree with. Although I do feel that both Branwen and Jahiera are "supposed" to be the 'good' options as both personalities seem more geared towards a goodly aligned party. BG2 is much harder on the Evilly aligned.
    Iecerint said:


    I think her low STR, at least, is a little bit annoying, if primarily for carry weight.

    Of course, she's probably your only frontliner with low STR, so giving her the Gauntlets is an obvious move. But this still means that low STR is a reasonable complaint early on IMO.

    Given the number of other really high strength Evil party members that you have a choice of, Viccy's low strength is a really minor annoyance (IMHO). If you have Kagain and Shar-Teel in your group, you probably are not hurting for luggage carrying capacity. And since the trade off is a decent cleric with 50% magic resistance and a killer AC, I personally always go with Viccy in an evil party.

    Iecerint
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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    Iecerint
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,834
    Lol, Divine casters in Baldur's Gate suck in general.

    Every damn mage in the game is running around with a 17 intelligence or greater, and yet here you have all these Divine casters, Clerics and Druids alike, with 16 Wisdom or less. So frustrating.*

    Some very good words spoken on Xzar here, so I'll just say "ditto" to them. My two cents have already been said.
    ------
    *I mean really, let's compare:
    Dynaheir: 17 INT
    Neera: 17 INT
    Xan: 17 INT
    Xzar: 17 INT
    Quayle: 17 INT
    Edwin: 18 INT
    Baeloth: 19 INT (an illegal stat to no purpose, gg Overhaul)

    Quayle: 10 WIS
    Tiax: 13 WIS
    Jaheira: 14 WIS
    Viconia: 15 WIS
    Branwen: 16 WIS
    Faldorn: 16 WIS
    Yeslick: 16 WIS

    That is just plain shameful. Divine casters make my OCD go crazy in this game. I just want someone who's good at their damn job!

    Fubby
  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    Thomasw said:

    I have a problem though, and that is if you don't like Viconia, you are a bit stuck for divine casters.Or should I just suck it up and use Viconia.

    The Drow Have Always Gotten A Bad Rep

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    The reason people forget about Tiax is... he has 13 wis, is one of the late game NPCs AND multiclass. Unless you want him for roleplay reasons, there is absolutely nothing that makes him a good choice. Granted, Quayle is even less wise, but he at least has a second caster side with extra spell/specialization. That is arguably better than a thief side. You can easily change a spellbook/memorization to your liking, but thief skills have a good change of being what you don't need at that point. If you made it to Tiax without a healer, you'll not need one at all. And if you made it to Tiax with a healer, whoever it is will be a better cleric.

    @the_spyder: I agree that Jaheira clearly leans to the good side. Branwen fits ok in a mixed neutral-evil party, though that may be my perception. She tends to banter a lot (not to say almost exclusively) with Eldoth, the compliment lines, so to me, it seems she's fine. Garrick also has a tendency to use insults to Dynaheir, so he doesn't feel as "really neutral good" as I used to see him. I guess it depends on the parties you usually run and who the neutrals interact with and how.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @KidCarnival. Tiax may be a mediocre cleric/thief, but he RULES ALL. That's good enough reason for me to take him along.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @the_spyder: That falls under "roleplay reason", as he rules all in words, not actions. ;)

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