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Lack of evil clerics in BG

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  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @GoodSteve - who am I to argue with a Google search?

  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 414
    It could be that a mod added "Xzar/Montaron betrayal."

  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123

    @NocturneN

    Comparing Viconia to Aerie is one of the worst things to do! Have you not seen the support this Cleric has here?! Blasphemy!

    I've said it at least four times now. Give Viconia a little love ( Gauntlets of Ogre Power, at least Ankheg Armor, Stupifier/Mace+2 ) and she lub u rong time. Put a ring or two on those fingers ( Ring of Holiness and a +2 RoP ) and you have one tough cookie. Want someone who not only can tank with the above, but can resist pretty much all magic? Give her the Cloak of Balduran to boost her up to 75% MR, around -10 AC. Keep going? Okay. Give her the Tower Shield+2 ( whatever it's called with +4 vs Missiles ), and Boots of Avoidance with that Elves Bane girdle for what, -11 Missile and -3 Piercing? Add another AC if you duke her out in Full Plate.

    Point is, Viconia's strong from beginning to the end. Comparing her to Aerie...you should be banned!

    Edit: Oh no, I'm not done. All that's not even counting the buffs she provides! Bless, Chant, Remove Fear, Protection from Evil 10', Defensive Harmony...All make-up for her lack of HP. Throw in a Skald Song ( -2 AC, +2 To Hit and +2 Damage ) followed by Dorn's whatever-it-is special ability to do the reverse of Skald Song for darn near every enemy on a map, and voila! Unstoppable.

    The problem is her 1 APR means she will NEVER be a decent fighting, regardless of how much STR she has. Sure it might be fine in BG1, but come mid/late-BG2 it really wont measure up. There also is no good HP-booster in BG2 so you'll need to give her Pots of Fortitude / Belt of Fortitude and it's quite frankly tedious to waste so much gear on one char when I can just recruit Jaheira to do the job!

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,138
    NocturneN said:

    @NocturneN

    Comparing Viconia to Aerie is one of the worst things to do! Have you not seen the support this Cleric has here?! Blasphemy!

    I've said it at least four times now. Give Viconia a little love ( Gauntlets of Ogre Power, at least Ankheg Armor, Stupifier/Mace+2 ) and she lub u rong time. Put a ring or two on those fingers ( Ring of Holiness and a +2 RoP ) and you have one tough cookie. Want someone who not only can tank with the above, but can resist pretty much all magic? Give her the Cloak of Balduran to boost her up to 75% MR, around -10 AC. Keep going? Okay. Give her the Tower Shield+2 ( whatever it's called with +4 vs Missiles ), and Boots of Avoidance with that Elves Bane girdle for what, -11 Missile and -3 Piercing? Add another AC if you duke her out in Full Plate.

    Point is, Viconia's strong from beginning to the end. Comparing her to Aerie...you should be banned!

    Edit: Oh no, I'm not done. All that's not even counting the buffs she provides! Bless, Chant, Remove Fear, Protection from Evil 10', Defensive Harmony...All make-up for her lack of HP. Throw in a Skald Song ( -2 AC, +2 To Hit and +2 Damage ) followed by Dorn's whatever-it-is special ability to do the reverse of Skald Song for darn near every enemy on a map, and voila! Unstoppable.

    The problem is her 1 APR means she will NEVER be a decent fighting, regardless of how much STR she has. Sure it might be fine in BG1, but come mid/late-BG2 it really wont measure up. There also is no good HP-booster in BG2 so you'll need to give her Pots of Fortitude / Belt of Fortitude and it's quite frankly tedious to waste so much gear on one char when I can just recruit Jaheira to do the job!
    Holy Power, Righteous Magic and Draw Upon Holy Might don't make her into a decent fighting character? I honestly haven't used those spells much, they don't add APR? Definitely should take care of any STR issues.

  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 414
    Does Anomen get more APR from his fighter levels? He could hold his own pretty well when I took him through BG2/ToB.

  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @Nocturne

    You're right, she has horrible HP and 1 APR. Her MR and potentially high ( read low ) AC make-up for it in BG:EE. I'm curious though, when did HP become important? Especially for someone that can dodge spells and melee?

    Viconia isn't meant to be the main tank of your game. Comparing her to a Fighter or other melee class is all moot.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @NocturneN - Um.... Wait a minute. You are saying that Viconia is poor in BG2? In what way?

    Sure she has a poor CON, but as you indicate, pop on the Belt of Fortitude and that problem is solved. Add either the Gauntlets of Ogre Power (which after a point become useless to anyone else due to the belts of Giant strength) and she becomes quite the power house. Add in her 50% MR and throw on a blade barrier and she becomes absolute killer. Not to mention her epic DEX which makes her one of the hardest characters to hit.

    Also, I am not saying that she is intended to be #1 Tank of the party, merely that she can dole out some decent damage in support. She also has a boatload of cleric spells including Harm not to mention all of the healing that she can do. She makes a very solid Cleric with quite a bit of combat potential.

    If you want to compare her to Jaheira, fine. But the two play different roles in the party. As far as a straight Cleric, Viccy is really sweet. If you only have one slot, you really don't want your cleric to be front line anyway, do you? The Cleric gets level drained and she can't cast restore or resurrection or most of her healing. Jaheira is intended to be a front ranker. Most clerics are not. I see Jaheira as a fighter with some healing. And I would never take her as my only cleric. Late game BG2, you want a whole lot more casters than tanks anyway.

    Copastetic1985
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    Bhaaldog said:

    Thomasw said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Who needs more evil clerics when you have Viconia!

    Not everyone likes Viconia though, or dark elves in general !
    There are people on the forum who do not "like" Viconia?


    There are.

    She's so random in BG1 !

    in BG2 (yes BG2) it'as another story.

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    In my first playthrough I actually added Viconia primarily because she was evil-aligned, and I thought that was cool. I was, like 14/15, mind.

    [Deleted User]
  • BaxyrattyBaxyratty Member Posts: 190
    i took monty and xzar all the way though from beginning to end. no betrayal. was that a thing?

    Quartz
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I start to believe that Monty/Xzar is indeed a mod or something. I searched for any mentions of this myself and can't find anything.

    Quartz
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    @Quartz
    Baeloth: 19 INT (an illegal stat to no purpose, gg Overhaul)

    You do know that drow gets +2 to Dexterity and a +1 to Intelligence but do also get -2 in cha and -1 in con???

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    edited April 2013
    Sorcerers gain absolutely nothing from 19 INT. And he's an elf, just like Viconia. It's gnomes that can have 19 INT, not elves. So in this context, it is illegal and pointless.

    Quartz
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Why does this even matter? It's clearly done for flavour to show him as an 'evil genius', and since ti has zero mechanical effect I fail to see any legitimate reason why it keeps getting raised.

    [Deleted User]
  • DarrylsonDarrylson Member Posts: 87

    Sorcerers gain absolutely nothing from 19 INT. And he's an elf, just like Viconia. It's gnomes that can have 19 INT, not elves. So in this context, it is illegal and pointless.

    I see it as more of a characterization thing, like Minsc's illegally low wisdom.

    As far as races go I don't see a problem with nonplayable races getting bonuses like that, even pointless ones. We already have Aerie as an Avariel Cleric/Mage (technically elf, whatever) and Haer'Dalis with a bunch of bonuses for being a Tiefling. Should Viconia's MR be taken away because she's an "elf" just like Xan?

    I think characters receiving little bonuses like this if it fits their background is a good thing overall. Even if it serves no purpose in combat efficacy it makes sense to me that Baeloth would have super-genius level intellect.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I'm not sure why you quote me... I have nothing against the illegal stats. Sure elves (and that's what drow technically are in the game) usually can't have 19 int, and it *is* illegal, but why bother, it gives no advantage.

  • forktheworldforktheworld Member Posts: 88

    I'm not sure why you quote me... I have nothing against the illegal stats. Sure elves (and that's what drow technically are in the game) usually can't have 19 int, and it *is* illegal, but why bother, it gives no advantage.

    I really think its just like @Darrylson said, its purely for the characterization of the evil-genius archetype. We know Baeloth is supposed to be hyper-intelligent, even if that doesn't actually affect his spell-casting ability. Also, does Baeloth really NEED to be any more powerful from a high intelligence? ;)

  • PhyraxPhyrax Member Posts: 198
    Thomasw said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Thomasw said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Who needs more evil clerics when you have Viconia!

    Not everyone likes Viconia though, or dark elves in general !
    There are people on the forum who do not "like" Viconia?
    Of course. In fact I really dislike all of the romances in the BG games, actually in any Bioware games. I think are awkward and really lame. I avoid Jahera, Aeire and Viconia in BG2 just so I don't have to suffer the romance conversations that keep arising !

    Did you know that they misspelled Aerie's name? It should actually read Eerie.

    I mean, just look at her portrait! Nobody would want to romance that... she clearly looks like a person with a borderline personality disorder.

    [Spoiler]And I should know, I'm a physician.[/Spoiler]

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,138
    Phyrax said:

    Thomasw said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Thomasw said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Who needs more evil clerics when you have Viconia!

    Not everyone likes Viconia though, or dark elves in general !
    There are people on the forum who do not "like" Viconia?
    Of course. In fact I really dislike all of the romances in the BG games, actually in any Bioware games. I think are awkward and really lame. I avoid Jahera, Aeire and Viconia in BG2 just so I don't have to suffer the romance conversations that keep arising !

    Did you know that they misspelled Aerie's name? It should actually read Eerie.

    I mean, just look at her portrait! Nobody would want to romance that... she clearly looks like a person with a borderline personality disorder.

    [Spoiler]And I should know, I'm a physician.[/Spoiler]
    A borderline personality disorder like delusions that she could fly? I believe it's called Tinkerbell syndrome.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 414
    BPD doesn't involve hallucinations; you're mixing up your types of Hollywood crazy.

    KidCarnival[Deleted User]
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,845
    edited April 2013
    The reason I don't like Baeloth's 19 Intelligence is because it kind of takes a dump on one of Edwin's bragging rights. (Most intelligent NPC)

    Of course, I'm a hypocrite, because the reason I DO like Dorn's 19 Strength IS because it takes a dump on Minsc's bragging right. Because I hate Minsc. ^w^

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Quartz said:

    The reason I don't like Baeloth's 19 Intelligence is because it kind of takes a dump on one of Edwin's bragging rights. (Most intelligent NPC)

    Of course, I'm a hypocrite, because the reason I DO like Dorn's 19 Strength IS because it takes a dump on Minsc's bragging right. Because I hate Minsc. ^w^

    Yeah, but Baeloth's essentially an easter egg, and so barely canonical. Besides, just use the INT tome on Edwin to push him to 19 ;)

    [Deleted User]Quartz
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Besides, most of Edwin's claims are ego and bluster anyway. They don't "Have" to be based in fact. I am pretty sure as a 1st level wizard he isn't some high ranking member of the Red Wizards of Thay, although I could be wrong.

    "What we demand is rigid areas of doubt and uncertainty." - Vroomfondle

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Doesn't his conversation with the other Red Wizards imply he is fairly low rank? I could be wrong.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    I don't rightly know. To be honest, he is not a regular in my BG1 parties ***waits to get struck down for blaspheme***. He is however a mainstay of my BG2 parties.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    The other Red Wizards don't say anything obvious, imo. Ekandor doesn't have a direct conversation with Edwin; it's Edwin talking to you after the fight (and only to the effect of "I didn't like fighting my own people"). In the forest, it's just "ohai Edwin, hope you got your job done, have a nice day". The implication that the leaders of the groups are higher ranks are from the scrolls they drop (level 3 and 4 spells), which Edwin couldn't cast at the time. Unless you wait for some levels, of course.
    However, a lot of Edwin's self image is in his head, so I agree that his bragging rights don't suffer from Baeloth' illegal stat. Especially since NPCs can't see stats. No-one would know that Baeloth is smarter than Edwin. It is easier to compare Dorn and Minsc in roleplay; you can have them lift stuff and see who can carry more. Baeloth is a different class than Edwin and if they'd compare casting skills, it would have nothing to do with intelligence and everything with the class. As a sorcerer, Baeloth' magic is supposed to come naturally to him, where Edwin studies. In a contest, Edwin would always win simply because Baeloth could not learn *any* spell the same way. You could make different rules, so Baeloth would win by default, but ultimately it's up to the one making the rules for the contest, not the contestants.

    Eudaemonium
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,149

    Sorcerers gain absolutely nothing from 19 INT. And he's an elf, just like Viconia. It's gnomes that can have 19 INT, not elves. So in this context, it is illegal and pointless.

    It is not illegal, and it is not pointless because he is an evil genius.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Elves can have 19 dex - like Viconia does have.
    Elves can not have 19 int - it's the perk gnomes have.
    19 int does absolutely nothing for a sorcerer in BG1. It is pointless for the mechanics. It is as much flavour as the backstory and voiceset of an NPC.

    Quartz
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