Elves can have 19 dex - like Viconia does have. Elves can not have 19 int - it's the perk gnomes have. 19 int does absolutely nothing for a sorcerer in BG1. It is pointless for the mechanics. It is as much flavour as the backstory and voiceset of an NPC.
Drow have +1 intelligence. But even if these weren't Baeloth's stats , which ones would you give him?
In case it was really not obvious so far, I'm talking about the game mechanics and nothing else. Baeloth and Viconia are elves, as drow do not exist as a seperate race. Their profiles say "race: elf" and elves get a stat bonus for dex, not int. It is not relevant what stats are legal for drow in PnP or other rule editions; it can't be applied to BG.
I also didn't say I would give Baeloth different stats. I was under the impression to have said more than once that I do not see any issues with his stats.
You're right, she has horrible HP and 1 APR. Her MR and potentially high ( read low ) AC make-up for it in BG:EE. I'm curious though, when did HP become important? Especially for someone that can dodge spells and melee?
Viconia isn't meant to be the main tank of your game. Comparing her to a Fighter or other melee class is all moot.
Erm, when enemies have such great thac0 that it doesn't matter what AC you have for them to hit?! You simply cannot rely on AC alone come BG2/ToB.
Holy Power, Righteous Magic and Draw Upon Holy Might don't make her into a decent fighting character? I honestly haven't used those spells much, they don't add APR? Definitely should take care of any STR issues.
That's right - They don't. None of those spells grant extra APRs, which is quite ironic. You really need a Dual or Multiclass Fighter/Cleric to do any form of good damage later in the game.
Someone mentioned Anomen, yes - Anomen is an awesome character and a great tank thanks to his Fighter levels. He looses some of his fighting Power in ToB due to lack of Warrior HLAs, but is nonetheless very good.
Yes, she's a great single-classed cleric! But I prefer characters who can perform multiple roles, and you are never going to convince me that Viconia can come anywhere near the fighting prowess of Anomen/Jaheira. Yes, you can deck her out in lots of gear, but seriously; Why would you? Isn't it better to give those items to chars who can make good use of them instead of trying to turn a bad fighter into a mediocre one (Dons Ring of Flame Protection and quaffs a pot of Fire Restiance here.. xD)?
I suppose it's a matter of prefference. Yes, 19 DEX is a great boon, but it's not like Jaheira is gonna do a worse job because of her 17 DEX (aided by Iron Skins, quite the contrary). Yes, 65% MR is great, but it's a luxuary I don't need, honestly. If you know how to counter enemy spellcasters you wont be hit by much magic anyway.
Having a low number of options forces you to compromise to try and get what you want. In my opinion the party management aspect of these games has always been more about trying to get a bunch of misfits with odd personalities, potential conflicts etc. together and guiding them towards a common goal.
Giving too many options allows everyone to get their perfect group every single time... and perfection is just boring.
It's interesting reading some of the replies. It's very easy to tell who plays with maximum HP rolls and those who don't.
If you play on normal then just about any d8 or d10 character becomes a viable tank once you get some maxed HP levels under your belt if you stack gear on them.
If you play on core+ (and don't reroll bad HP rolls) then it's a different ball game. Viconia at level 8 has an average of 36 HP (depending on what level you get her ... started at 2 it's ~39 but 4 or 6 it's ~36) which just isn't enough to tank difficult fights. Compare to if HP rolls at level up, that puts her at 60 HP at level 8, a +50% improvement. Not to mention that mobs do less damage on normal ...
I don't think anyone seriously uses her as main tank, or... actual tank at all. Frontliner would be the right word. She can survive in melee, yeah, but that's about it. Unless you gear her up with pretty much everything, she won't do notable damage with any melee weapon and it makes a lot more sense to give her a sling and be done with it.
I know it's been said many times, but many of us put Viconia in ankheg armor (which puts her at AC -6 or something on that order) and place her on the frontline to make the enemy swing and miss. Then have her cast spells. She rarely if ever gets interrupted. The spells I use offensively for her are Doom, Hold, Miscast Magic, Rigid Thinking, Cloak of Fear, and Poison.
Anyway, you can multi-task her as a 'tank' and spellcaster, both. One Hold spell can neutralize up to four enemies, for example. So that's a more efficient use of her than having her swing away with a pure class cleric's less than stellar THAC0 and APR.
@Lemernis Unless the Hold gets Saved. I prefer to simply let Edwin cast Web...
Could work if you got lots of lucky HP rolls as Wowo mentions, but if you get bad rolls it's just too risky for my tastes - a stray crit from an Ogre Berserker could pretty much do her in if you're unlucky... I do as Kid does and simply let her sling away - if she gets threatened in meele, I just switch weps and try to get her the hell away from there! It always feels risky to send Viconia in to heal someone... Most of the spells you mention are castable at range - I also make frequent use of Doom & Silence (Like MM, but with a -5 save penalty!).
Yeah, it ultimately boils down to a matter of personal preference, totally agree. FWIW I have found that while Viconia may take a shot now and again, at least in my experience it's quite rare, and nothing that a healing potion can't offset.
This is not to say that she can't be effective using the sling. Her Dex is amazing also, so yeah.
I just prefer disabling spells in general to something like a sling bullet, I think. Basically because its more fun for me. But that's just my taste, versus an argument that a spell is "better."
Yes, she's a great single-classed cleric! But I prefer characters who can perform multiple roles, and you are never going to convince me that Viconia can come anywhere near the fighting prowess of Anomen/Jaheira. Yes, you can deck her out in lots of gear, but seriously; Why would you? Isn't it better to give those items to chars who can make good use of them instead of trying to turn a bad fighter into a mediocre one (Dons Ring of Flame Protection and quaffs a pot of Fire Restiance here.. xD)?
I suppose it's a matter of prefference. Yes, 19 DEX is a great boon, but it's not like Jaheira is gonna do a worse job because of her 17 DEX (aided by Iron Skins, quite the contrary). Yes, 65% MR is great, but it's a luxuary I don't need, honestly. If you know how to counter enemy spellcasters you wont be hit by much magic anyway.
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.
"For me", she is not a poor fighter being turned into a mediocre one. She is a good second string fighter who can be turned into an EXCELLENT second string fighter (and buffed, easily a first stringer). As for "you can deck her out in lots of gear, but seriously; Why would you?", most of the gear I would deck her out with really has no other use. by the time I get Gauntlets of Ogre power, my front rank already has almost the equivalent or higher. Giving Korgan or Minsc the Gaunts seems like a total waste. Both of their natural strengths are such that there is only a marginal lift, and there are plenty of Girdles of Giant strength throughout the game that are just better. The Girdle of Fortitude just seems made for Viconia as most of the rest of the party have reasonable or better CONs. Ok, Maybe Minsc could use a boost, but he already has a decent amount of HP to begin with. And once one of the Girdles of Giant strength are available, that slot is taken. And someone like Yoshimo or Jan or any of the casters can't wear them due to class restrictions. I'd say the equipment is very well apportioned going to her. No one else can use it to any effect that isn't superseded by something better.
Beyond that the fact that she is guaranteed to have at least 1 AC point better than any other NPC in the game (given comparable equipment) and Magic Resistance plus party buffs and healing and spells like blade barrier and harm, she makes a heck of a front line combatant in my opinion. Sure, Korgan or Minsc will absolutely out-class her. And even Jaheira would probably out class her but only so long as she has Iron Skin up. Once that goes down, she isn't THAT superior to Viccy. I have never had Anomen in my group so I can't speak for him.
But yeah, it's all good. Each person to their own. And we can agree to disagree.
Interesting that you mention Blade Barrier; everytime I used that spell I either wound up hurting my other tanks, or everyone simply saved the effect. ^^ This time around I'm using a component from a mod that makes it unable to hurt allies, so I shall be able to make better use of it this time I think! ^^
Well, in BG the evil NPCs got new ones, ok, nice. Now maybe the devs can configure the game to make play as evil cool and not a penality.
I'm still tired of paying 200.000 gold for an item that cost normally 15.000, low reputation should be an art, not a penality, i work very hard with the evil path of my quests to lower my reputation. I would suggest an bounty system similar to Elder Scroll for anyone that kills an innocent (to low the reputation or any other reason). No matter where the character goes, any time he find an agent of law, he would be intimated to pay for his bouty (along with some penality) or face battle.
@NocturneN - yeah blade barrier can be tricky to handle. but it can also be deadly in combat when used properly (if I am remembering it correctly).
@kamuizin - by late game, money really isn't a factor. I am usually so flooded with cash by the time I reach Baldur's Gate that I am just throwing it away. And how many things do you really need to buy?
I don't rightly know. To be honest, he is not a regular in my BG1 parties ***waits to get struck down for blaspheme***. He is however a mainstay of my BG2 parties.
That's perfectly understandable. I like Edwin quite a lot, but he is just plain a better character in BGII. Much more rounded, believable and human. He certainly isn't bad in BG1, but he is far more enjoyable in BGII.
Same story for Viconia, especially since you can get in her panties
Elves can have 19 dex - like Viconia does have. Elves can not have 19 int - it's the perk gnomes have. 19 int does absolutely nothing for a sorcerer in BG1. It is pointless for the mechanics. It is as much flavour as the backstory and voiceset of an NPC.
No @KidCarnival you are wrong, 19 Int means he gets 2 more Lore than someone with 18 Intelligence. Baeloth is OP, nerf now Overhaul or I'm not playing this game ever again.
@the_spyder In BG, near nothing. But that doesn't take away the feeling of being cheated when i have to pay 200.000 for something worth 15.000. But i wish that the evil shortage content where a bit healed.
I have to say, good work with the NPCs, but the quests are still stupid for evil players, some lines during the game are too idiots to be spoken by an evil character and we doesn't have an anternative.
I really wish a good mod tutorial, my frist trial would be an overhaul quest fix for every quest of the game (no matter how small) to adjust them to coherence, worthwhile and different alignment paths (so if anyone knows a good one please tell me or share a link for it )
@kamuizin - I would agree, if it wasn't for the "agents of law will find you, no matter where". It still wouldn't address the real stupidity of being evil, where you lose reputation for doing the smart thing - killing witnesses. I remember a posting here where someone killed Thalantyr, didn't lose rep and then also killed Melicamp as the only witness and then the rep dropped - certainly a "lol wut" case. If said agents would always know what I did somewhere in the woods, with no witness, it would come out as the same as now, just the Flaming Fists would be delayed. If bad rep, good charisma would open the option to bribe guards, too - that would be a welcome change.
@Quartz - 2 LORE?! Oh my, the game is unplayable! Now I wish I had a physical copy, just so I could throw it away!
There's a huge difference between "No matter where the character goes, any time he find an agent of law" to "agents of law will find you, no matter where".
You have to respect the engine limitations, our imagination is indeed ilimited but infinite engine is not. If we can configure infinite engine to ignore reputation loss when no one notice a killing, ok, let's do it, but do not expect to have a loss of reputation and repair it by killing an witness in infinite engine however.
Well, it should be possible to have a check if ANYONE is present on a map, besides whoever you killed. There are several maps where there is just one non-hostile NPC and if you kill that one, there is no witness. That should not result in a rep loss; there is no-one to tell what you did.
Well, it should be possible to have a check if ANYONE is present on a map, besides whoever you killed. There are several maps where there is just one non-hostile NPC and if you kill that one, there is no witness. That should not result in a rep loss; there is no-one to tell what you did.
And once one of the Girdles of Giant strength are available, that slot is taken. And someone like Yoshimo or Jan or any of the casters can't wear them due to class restrictions. I'd say the equipment is very well apportioned going to her. No one else can use it to any effect that isn't superseded by something better.
Anyone can use the Girdles of Giant Strength, for what it is worth. Yoshimo, Jan, etc. certainly benefit from them - especially to aid their backstabbing.
@kamuizin - seriously you want to be the scourge of the sword coast and expect the few shopkeepers who don't refuse to deal with you at all to give you the same price as a "normal" customer? Did you ever stop to think that THEY are evil and only willing to suffer the possible consequences to them of the Flaming Fist finding out they are equipping you because they can make mass amounts of gold that will allow them to bribe the law into leaving them alone?
As for a rep drop when "no one sees" - I personally would not assume that just because there was no animated blue circled NPC visible to the player that no one was near enough to spot the evil deed and pass that information along - it's just as easy to figure out why such a thing might happen as it is to figure out why it couldn't - especially when it happens in the wilderness where someone could easily be hidden from sight and then quietly snuck away after witnessing the deed.
In any event removing consequences for evil deeds and evil reps just seems like having you cake and eating it too to me.
@kamuizin - seriously you want to be the scourge of the sword coast and expect the few shopkeepers who don't refuse to deal with you at all to give you the same price as a "normal" customer? Did you ever stop to think that THEY are evil and only willing to suffer the possible consequences to them of the Flaming Fist finding out they are equipping you because they can make mass amounts of gold that will allow them to bribe the law into leaving them alone?
As for a rep drop when "no one sees" - I personally would not assume that just because there was no animated blue circled NPC visible to the player that no one was near enough to spot the evil deed and pass that information along - it's just as easy to figure out why such a thing might happen as it is to figure out why it couldn't - especially when it happens in the wilderness where someone could easily be hidden from sight and then quietly snuck away after witnessing the deed.
In any event removing consequences for evil deeds and evil reps just seems like having you cake and eating it too to me.
I seriously expect that if the scourge of the sword coast enters a shop and thrusts a sword under a shopkeeper's throat that the shopkeeper will be happy to sell at normal prices and will likely be eager to offer free bonuses in order to stay alive. Sarevok walks in and they are really going to charge him 5x as much as the guy next to him? I don't think so.
Comments
I also didn't say I would give Baeloth different stats. I was under the impression to have said more than once that I do not see any issues with his stats.
Someone mentioned Anomen, yes - Anomen is an awesome character and a great tank thanks to his Fighter levels. He looses some of his fighting Power in ToB due to lack of Warrior HLAs, but is nonetheless very good.
@the_spyder
Yes, she's a great single-classed cleric! But I prefer characters who can perform multiple roles, and you are never going to convince me that Viconia can come anywhere near the fighting prowess of Anomen/Jaheira. Yes, you can deck her out in lots of gear, but seriously; Why would you? Isn't it better to give those items to chars who can make good use of them instead of trying to turn a bad fighter into a mediocre one (Dons Ring of Flame Protection and quaffs a pot of Fire Restiance here.. xD)?
I suppose it's a matter of prefference. Yes, 19 DEX is a great boon, but it's not like Jaheira is gonna do a worse job because of her 17 DEX (aided by Iron Skins, quite the contrary). Yes, 65% MR is great, but it's a luxuary I don't need, honestly. If you know how to counter enemy spellcasters you wont be hit by much magic anyway.
That's BG2, this is BG:EE. Welcome.
Giving too many options allows everyone to get their perfect group every single time... and perfection is just boring.
If you play on normal then just about any d8 or d10 character becomes a viable tank once you get some maxed HP levels under your belt if you stack gear on them.
If you play on core+ (and don't reroll bad HP rolls) then it's a different ball game. Viconia at level 8 has an average of 36 HP (depending on what level you get her ... started at 2 it's ~39 but 4 or 6 it's ~36) which just isn't enough to tank difficult fights. Compare to if HP rolls at level up, that puts her at 60 HP at level 8, a +50% improvement. Not to mention that mobs do less damage on normal ...
Anyway, you can multi-task her as a 'tank' and spellcaster, both. One Hold spell can neutralize up to four enemies, for example. So that's a more efficient use of her than having her swing away with a pure class cleric's less than stellar THAC0 and APR.
Could work if you got lots of lucky HP rolls as Wowo mentions, but if you get bad rolls it's just too risky for my tastes - a stray crit from an Ogre Berserker could pretty much do her in if you're unlucky... I do as Kid does and simply let her sling away - if she gets threatened in meele, I just switch weps and try to get her the hell away from there!
To each his own.
This is not to say that she can't be effective using the sling. Her Dex is amazing also, so yeah.
I just prefer disabling spells in general to something like a sling bullet, I think. Basically because its more fun for me. But that's just my taste, versus an argument that a spell is "better."
"For me", she is not a poor fighter being turned into a mediocre one. She is a good second string fighter who can be turned into an EXCELLENT second string fighter (and buffed, easily a first stringer). As for "you can deck her out in lots of gear, but seriously; Why would you?", most of the gear I would deck her out with really has no other use. by the time I get Gauntlets of Ogre power, my front rank already has almost the equivalent or higher. Giving Korgan or Minsc the Gaunts seems like a total waste. Both of their natural strengths are such that there is only a marginal lift, and there are plenty of Girdles of Giant strength throughout the game that are just better. The Girdle of Fortitude just seems made for Viconia as most of the rest of the party have reasonable or better CONs. Ok, Maybe Minsc could use a boost, but he already has a decent amount of HP to begin with. And once one of the Girdles of Giant strength are available, that slot is taken. And someone like Yoshimo or Jan or any of the casters can't wear them due to class restrictions. I'd say the equipment is very well apportioned going to her. No one else can use it to any effect that isn't superseded by something better.
Beyond that the fact that she is guaranteed to have at least 1 AC point better than any other NPC in the game (given comparable equipment) and Magic Resistance plus party buffs and healing and spells like blade barrier and harm, she makes a heck of a front line combatant in my opinion. Sure, Korgan or Minsc will absolutely out-class her. And even Jaheira would probably out class her but only so long as she has Iron Skin up. Once that goes down, she isn't THAT superior to Viccy. I have never had Anomen in my group so I can't speak for him.
But yeah, it's all good. Each person to their own. And we can agree to disagree.
I'm still tired of paying 200.000 gold for an item that cost normally 15.000, low reputation should be an art, not a penality, i work very hard with the evil path of my quests to lower my reputation. I would suggest an bounty system similar to Elder Scroll for anyone that kills an innocent (to low the reputation or any other reason). No matter where the character goes, any time he find an agent of law, he would be intimated to pay for his bouty (along with some penality) or face battle.
@kamuizin - by late game, money really isn't a factor. I am usually so flooded with cash by the time I reach Baldur's Gate that I am just throwing it away. And how many things do you really need to buy?
Same story for Viconia, especially since you can get in her panties No @KidCarnival you are wrong, 19 Int means he gets 2 more Lore than someone with 18 Intelligence. Baeloth is OP, nerf now Overhaul or I'm not playing this game ever again.
I have to say, good work with the NPCs, but the quests are still stupid for evil players, some lines during the game are too idiots to be spoken by an evil character and we doesn't have an anternative.
I really wish a good mod tutorial, my frist trial would be an overhaul quest fix for every quest of the game (no matter how small) to adjust them to coherence, worthwhile and different alignment paths (so if anyone knows a good one please tell me or share a link for it
@Quartz - 2 LORE?! Oh my, the game is unplayable! Now I wish I had a physical copy, just so I could throw it away!
There's a huge difference between "No matter where the character goes, any time he find an agent of law" to "agents of law will find you, no matter where".
You have to respect the engine limitations, our imagination is indeed ilimited but infinite engine is not. If we can configure infinite engine to ignore reputation loss when no one notice a killing, ok, let's do it, but do not expect to have a loss of reputation and repair it by killing an witness in infinite engine however.
As for a rep drop when "no one sees" - I personally would not assume that just because there was no animated blue circled NPC visible to the player that no one was near enough to spot the evil deed and pass that information along - it's just as easy to figure out why such a thing might happen as it is to figure out why it couldn't - especially when it happens in the wilderness where someone could easily be hidden from sight and then quietly snuck away after witnessing the deed.
In any event removing consequences for evil deeds and evil reps just seems like having you cake and eating it too to me.