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Lack of evil clerics in BG

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  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    edited April 2013
    Quartz said:

    Lol, Divine casters in Baldur's Gate suck in general.

    Every damn mage in the game is running around with a 17 intelligence or greater, and yet here you have all these Divine casters, Clerics and Druids alike, with 16 Wisdom or less. So frustrating.*

    Some very good words spoken on Xzar here, so I'll just say "ditto" to them. My two cents have already been said.
    ------
    *I mean really, let's compare:
    Dynaheir: 17 INT
    Neera: 17 INT
    Xan: 17 INT
    Xzar: 17 INT
    Quayle: 17 INT
    Edwin: 18 INT
    Baeloth: 19 INT (an illegal stat to no purpose, gg Overhaul)

    Quayle: 10 WIS
    Tiax: 13 WIS
    Jaheira: 14 WIS
    Viconia: 15 WIS
    Branwen: 16 WIS
    Faldorn: 16 WIS
    Yeslick: 16 WIS

    That is just plain shameful. Divine casters make my OCD go crazy in this game. I just want someone who's good at their damn job!

    For BG1, there's no real need for high Intelligence other than for scribing scrolls. Unlike for Divine Casters, it doesn't affect the number of spells you can learn. If it did, then you could lol or freak-out from your OCD.

    In my opinion, the reason Divine Casters in BG1 have low Wisdom is simply to scale with the Mages up to 8th level ( Viconia will have the exact same number of spells/level a Mage with 200 Intelligence would have at level 8 ). Assuming you're both not using equipment to increase that number.

    And let's be honest. Viconia's 15 Wisdom is plenty of spells at level cap in BG and TotSC for all your protection needs in vanilla and SCS. If you 'really' need that extra Skeleton, or another Protection from Evil 10', then boost it with some Tomes.

    Of course, this is a non-powergamer's opinion.

    GodKaiserHellDJKajuru
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,848
    edited April 2013
    @Copastetic1985

    I can't tell whether you're trying to be insulting, or you just naturally incline towards insulting diction.

    I'm quite aware that Intelligence is not terribly important.

    Yes, that's all well and good but let's be honest Arcane magic tends to be more powerful than Divine. Divine magic aids you greatly in killing your enemy, Arcane magic just plain kills your enemy.

    "Let's be honest"? I disagree. I like as many spells as I can get. I'm glad it's enough for you but I like to have lots of Divine spells, it is a nice luxury. Sure I can *get by* with less, I can get by soloing the game with a Fighter/Thief but gee I dunno, maybe I like to expand my horizons.

    Before you label me a powergamer keep in mind that in my most recent game, my only source of Divine spellcasting was Quayle. Yes, Quayle. All I said was that these characters are far from ideal, not that they are garbage. I am perfectly willing to work with these fun NPCs because PCs are extremely boring.

    Also please note that if the very technical, game-mechanic discussions of this forum make you sick to your stomach, "eww powergaming!" ... I dunno, get over it I guess? It's one of the main pulls of this forum. Here we talk about role-playing, technical discussions (aka powergaming), and occasionally start big arguments about politics and religion. If the middle option bothers you, stay out of said threads?

    KidCarnivalEudaemonium
  • ThomaswThomasw Member Posts: 18
    ajwz said:

    Lack of evil clerics in bg?
    There is one.
    Unlike say, 5 billion other possible alignment/class combinations.

    What a ridiculous thread.

    ajwz said:

    You know what is dumb? A lack of +5 warhammers which set your strength to 25.
    I mean, what if I don't like the crom fayer?

    This is a gaping hole in the game which the developers have clearly overlooked.

    Do you try really hard to be such a jerk or does it just come naturally to you ?

    Maybe I should have clarified more in my initial post, but I have further explained about a general lack of divine casters. It wasn't an attack at you, or anyone really. Just a simple comment that if you do not like Viconia you are basically screwed for a decent Cleric. My comment wasn't a rant, it was actually a request for advice, be it mods or alternative characters like the Xzar dual which I was unaware of.

    Perhaps in the future you will consider trying to be civil with people who you don't know. Anonymity does not excuse rudeness, even on the internet. Your comments added nothing to the discussion save for discouraging me and potentially others from posting again, lest we have to endure you and your attitude !

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @KidCarnival. Don't let him here you say that. One day Tiax will point and click and YOU will do.

    (LOL. All in fun)

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    You just can't seperate "roleplay" and "game mechanics" completely. The late game NPCs happen to be thieves and clerics, two classes you need this or that way to get that far. Yes, you can get by without a healer and only use potions/rest/temples, but it's probably something not many people do. If you go without thief and healer for roleplay reasons, how exactly do you roleplay running into traps all the time? Might work if you play a 3 intelligence/wisdom charname, but anyone with at least 6 intelligence would, roleplay-wise, realize they need to do something about it and get a thief, a healer or both.

    So yeah, I understand the wish for NPCs, especially pure classes, to be good at what they do, or at least notably better than other classes. Yet ironically the insane necromancer makes the best cleric, spell/prime stat-wise. While it is certainly nice to have the option to dual NPCs, they shouldn't become better than any of the pure class NPCs can ever be. Sure, let them become equally good, but the low prime stat for divine casters is pretty weird.

    Quartz
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747

    @KidCarnival. Don't let him here you say that. One day Tiax will point and click and YOU will do.

    (LOL. All in fun)

    Yes, but at that time, Edwin has a pointy hat and understands my mouse magic. Since he is honor-bound to serve me, I can send him to dual Tiax.

    (Getting popcorn.)

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Iecerint said:

    Most non-vet players probably don't think about using a WIS tome on Xzar and dualling him.

    I never considered dualling *any* NPCs before I started frequenting these forums, let alone ones I had to use *stat tomes* on. Those tomes were mine!

    But that's why I like to spread the Xzar and Shar-Teel love these days, because they're both awesome when dualled, and I never even thought of doing it before. Plus if you edit Xzar's model back to the mage one, he looks epic with the Evil Archmage Robe, a swanky helmet and a large shield. Like some Insane WarGod Santa.

    KidCarnivalIecerint[Deleted User]Quartz
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    edited April 2013
    @Quartz

    Not once did I call you a powergamer, nor did I even try ( or care ) to insult you. If you're unclear about something I type, or respond to, feel free to message me privately.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747

    Plus if you edit Xzar's model back to the mage one, he looks epic with the Evil Archmage Robe, a swanky helmet and a large shield. Like some Insane WarGod Santa.

    If only we had a green arch magi robe...

    I like to give him the Eyes of Truth helm at first, since he always wanted infravision, and because it looks awesome with the robe, too.

    Eudaemonium
  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 414
    It's more than just taking their eyes. :P

    KidCarnivalEudaemoniumQuartz
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017

    @KidCarnival. Don't let him here you say that. One day Tiax will point and click and YOU will do.

    (LOL. All in fun)

    Yes, but at that time, Edwin has a pointy hat and understands my mouse magic. Since he is honor-bound to serve me, I can send him to dual Tiax.

    (Getting popcorn.)

    Wait, what? Edwin is "Honor-bound"? Um.....

    "Tiax is destined to lead, though he grows to enjoy your company. Perhaps you shall be spared his wrath, and appointed to more than sewage detail."

    Tiax stealthes up behind Edwin and give him a wedgy.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747

    @KidCarnival. Don't let him here you say that. One day Tiax will point and click and YOU will do.

    (LOL. All in fun)

    Yes, but at that time, Edwin has a pointy hat and understands my mouse magic. Since he is honor-bound to serve me, I can send him to dual Tiax.

    (Getting popcorn.)

    Wait, what? Edwin is "Honor-bound"? Um.....

    "Tiax is destined to lead, though he grows to enjoy your company. Perhaps you shall be spared his wrath, and appointed to more than sewage detail."

    Tiax stealthes up behind Edwin and give him a wedgy.
    Yep, the whole reason he follows me is that he gave his word (well, and my mouse magic). We are professionals, there is no room for emotional attachment or enjoyment of each other's company. Which is also why Edwin is comfortable wearing only a skirt around me, giving him wedgie-resistance. (You want the rest of the popcorn? I'm not really that hungry anymore.)

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Edwin is lawful evil, which means he's quasi-honour-bound to work with you for a year, which are the terms of his (admittedly verbal) contract with you.

    [Deleted User]
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,848

    You just can't seperate "roleplay" and "game mechanics" completely. The late game NPCs happen to be thieves and clerics, two classes you need this or that way to get that far. Yes, you can get by without a healer and only use potions/rest/temples, but it's probably something not many people do. If you go without thief and healer for roleplay reasons, how exactly do you roleplay running into traps all the time? Might work if you play a 3 intelligence/wisdom charname, but anyone with at least 6 intelligence would, roleplay-wise, realize they need to do something about it and get a thief, a healer or both.

    So yeah, I understand the wish for NPCs, especially pure classes, to be good at what they do, or at least notably better than other classes. Yet ironically the insane necromancer makes the best cleric, spell/prime stat-wise. While it is certainly nice to have the option to dual NPCs, they shouldn't become better than any of the pure class NPCs can ever be. Sure, let them become equally good, but the low prime stat for divine casters is pretty weird.

    @KidCarnival Why are your posts so damn brilliant. I feel like I don't even need to post in this thread >_>

    EudaemoniumKidCarnival
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017

    Yet ironically the insane necromancer makes the best cleric, spell/prime stat-wise. While it is certainly nice to have the option to dual NPCs, they shouldn't become better than any of the pure class NPCs can ever be. Sure, let them become equally good, but the low prime stat for divine casters is pretty weird.

    I see this as more of an Easter egg than anything else. It is a combination that your average player might not think about unless they read it somewhere. Therefore it is hidden and, once you find it out, quite powerful.

    Also remember that there are problems with the character late in the game which may in some small way offset the advantages unless you are prepared for them.

    I personally still Like Viccy. For So many reasons.

    [Deleted User]
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @Quartz - My pic is a clever deception. Actually, I'm Xzar and therefore have sudden moments of genius, while mostly just being insane.

    @the_spyder - I think it depends on the kind of gamer you are. I, for example, can't resist clicking buttons if they are there. So, an active "dual class" button on Shar-Teel is simply too tempting. I clicked it back in vanilla just to see what would happen. It was a stupid thing to do, sure, because I was left without a frontliner and had another thief (charname was a thief, too). Now it's something people may do out of sheer curiosity and it works fine and they might do the same thing I did back then: check every NPC they come across if they can use the mystery button, too.

    And what problems in late game do you mean? Xzar's encounter with the necromancers? That doesn't change if you dual him. I just finished a run with cleric Xzar and didn't run into any problems at all.

    Eudaemonium
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747

    Edwin is lawful evil, which means he's quasi-honour-bound to work with you for a year, which are the terms of his (admittedly verbal) contract with you.

    It used to be a verbal contract, yes. But since I hired Eldoth as my lawyer, we have it in writing.

    Eudaemonium
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    edited April 2013
    @KidCarnival - I suspect that neither you or I are 'Typical' players. My definition of a "Typical" player is one that may play around with different companions, but probably doesn't foray much into new and unique combinations of those companions unless they read about someone doing it. They probably play through no more than a handful of times and probably focus mostly on customizing out their Charname with little thought to the NPC companions and how they change other than leveling up.

    And considering you have to use one of the Tomes of Wisdom on him before that button even becomes available to change class, and the fact that the rules list INT as primary ability for a Wizard and not WIS, I think that adds an added level of complexity that most players wouldn't consider without reading about it. So it isn't like Dualling Shar-Teel to thief or Imoen to Wizard where it is merely a click of a button. It is quite a bit of lateral thinking above and beyond that in my opinion. I am not saying it isn't done. I am just saying that probably the vast majority of casual players don't play the game over and over and over, repeatedly the way some of us do. So for them to come up with that particular combination is probably less common than you are making it out to be.

    As for the difficulties, if you play all the way to the very end, you will encounter a problem with him. Trying not to be to spoilerish here so.... Granted it is WAY at the end, but still. If you are planning on a Necro/Cleric and a Fighter/Thief for the tail end of the game, that might be kind of a problem.

    Iecerint
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Ya, the dualling with tome is likely less done by "casual" players. I'd say since we are posting on a forum about a game, we don't count as casual. I personally gave Xzar the tome because one of my charnames is also chaotic evil and considered Xzar as his new mentor, so I wanted him to be wiser than charname. I didn't know about Shadowkeeper (if it was already around when I played), so the only way to do that was giving him the first wisdom tome I found. And then, there was an active button and I was tempted... (Note that said charname is a cleric, and this was a stupid thing to do, too.)

    And please spoiler, because absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened with cleric Xzar... And Sarevok is dead, the game is over. What is supposed to happen?

    Eudaemonium
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    @the_spyder: Which event are you referring to? You can use spoiler tags. :)

    Iecerint[Deleted User]
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    My original comment was that it was an Easter Egg and therefore probably not 'Common' knowledge. yes, most of the people in this forum probably know it, but not the common player. Therefore Easter Eggish.

    Not sure if they changed it for EE since I haven't played Xzar to the end in that edition, but in the vanilla original, he and Montaron split in the final dungeon on the way to the battle with Saravok. They make some comment that they are actually working for him and were sent to spy on you all along.


    did that change? I hope that they didn't mess with that. That would really disappoint me.

    Eudaemonium[Deleted User]
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I actually remember hearing about that years ago, but had completely forgotten about it. Never had it happen personally, though, as I've never actually *had* both of them by the end. It's usually one or the other. I assume it still happens.

    [Deleted User]
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,848
    edited April 2013
    I've honestly never heard of that, and I doubt it's true because...

    If you go upstairs in the Sorcerous Sundries with those two it is made quite clear that Montaron and Xzar work with the Zhentarim, and they goad you to continue taking out the Iron Throne because they are screwing with the Zhents. Which is obvious even outside of that conversation where people are blaming the Zhents instead of the Iron Throne, etc...


    Furthermore, it seems easy to mess up some information and turn it into a rumor because...

    I read the godawful Baldur's Gate novelization, and they ended up being traitors or some shit, all the way back at the Nashkel Mines. For one thing that novel screwed up a LOT of the canon, this clearly shouldn't be taken as canon. For another thing, it seems easy to start a rumor about some sort of betrayal happening in-game as a result of this.


    What I'm saying is: I'll believe it when I see it. Guess that means I'm taking both of them all the way through the game next run.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Hm, I also only had Xzar this time... I probably have a savegame somewhere with both at least in Baldur's Gate to finish and see if happens. However, it would be strange if having only one would deactive the script to leave. If you dismiss one of them (or Khalid or Jaheira), the remaining ones will also still fight.

    Quartz
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    I can say with experience that it did happen at one point. I remember getting to that point and it happened to me. Of course that was when the game first came out and vanilla. It could have been changed at any time since (say with ToSC for example) or with EE. But ever since I got burned by it, I never kept them to the bitter end, so I can't say when it changed. Almost makes me want to devote a run to it and see on my old vanilla version.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • LuigirulesLuigirules Member Posts: 415
    Thomasw said:

    That is odd, her reputation is chaotic neutral and she frequently says "Given two evils I pick the one I haven't tried".

    Yes, but that's not a philosophical statement.

    It's innuendo.

    Characters of any alignment may make innuendo.

    Quartz
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607

    I can say with experience that it did happen at one point. I remember getting to that point and it happened to me. Of course that was when the game first came out and vanilla. It could have been changed at any time since (say with ToSC for example) or with EE. But ever since I got burned by it, I never kept them to the bitter end, so I can't say when it changed. Almost makes me want to devote a run to it and see on my old vanilla version.

    I have played through the old vanilla version of BG a number of times with both Xzar and Montaron and I have never seen this. Also doing a quick google search on the subject has yeilded no results. I'm inclined to believe you are remembering incorrectly, sir.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,160
    @Quartz , I don't know about you, but back in my days any attribute above 15 was considered "exceptional". Of course that a 18 makes a big difference, but you know, the game managed to balance it quite well. The attributes match the npc's attitudes and general abilities, and you forgot the fact that :

    1-clerics also fight with weapons and armor, and that's why branwen has good physical attributes (no 18's, but she is still a character , not a bunch of stats) , viconia has a heroic dexterity , jaheira can use heavy armor and specialise . Wizards rely on spells and magical items to survive.

    2-only experienced players know how to use LOW LEVEL spellcasters effectivelly , such as holding and charming instead of casting 1d4+1 magic missile.

    3- D&D changed the modifiers , so you could have a dexterity 12 and already have a bonus , therefore your frustration is caused by AD&D rules , instead of BG stat choices.

    I know you're smart , I know I didn't say anything you didn't know, but roleplaying versus powergaming debates bring up some very obvious answers.

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