Swashbuckler APR & Specialization
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Revisited from: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/28/attacks-per-round-swashbuckler-non-issue#latest
So, it has been determined that it was NOT a Bug. Just that the description for weapon proficiencies needed an overhaul.
So now, I want to re-open an old topic as a new topic and really drive it home.
Request:
Allow any class, particularly the Swashbuckler, to receive the Attacks Per Round bonus from specialization.
The Why:
1. No class, save for Fighter-based classes (including Paladins, Rangers, et al) can naturally achieve anything beyond being Proficient (one star) in any weapon class. This change would not affect the actual game play of non-fighter-based classes, with the exception of the one Class/Kit capable of Specialization (the Swashbuckler).
2. It would add attraction to the Swashbuckler kit as a viable kit for play, especially in early on play. The Swashbuckler, after all, is intended to be a Fighter-Thief hybrid.
3. It would add a unique degree to the Swashbuckler kit that, presently, no other non-Fighter Kit can claim.
4. The added APR would offset the harsh loss of the ability to backstab, which becomes so powerful and helpful in the later stages of the game.
The idea of a Swashbuckler sounds fun, but the disadvantages seem to outweigh any advantages.
So, it has been determined that it was NOT a Bug. Just that the description for weapon proficiencies needed an overhaul.
So now, I want to re-open an old topic as a new topic and really drive it home.
Request:
Allow any class, particularly the Swashbuckler, to receive the Attacks Per Round bonus from specialization.
The Why:
1. No class, save for Fighter-based classes (including Paladins, Rangers, et al) can naturally achieve anything beyond being Proficient (one star) in any weapon class. This change would not affect the actual game play of non-fighter-based classes, with the exception of the one Class/Kit capable of Specialization (the Swashbuckler).
2. It would add attraction to the Swashbuckler kit as a viable kit for play, especially in early on play. The Swashbuckler, after all, is intended to be a Fighter-Thief hybrid.
3. It would add a unique degree to the Swashbuckler kit that, presently, no other non-Fighter Kit can claim.
4. The added APR would offset the harsh loss of the ability to backstab, which becomes so powerful and helpful in the later stages of the game.
The idea of a Swashbuckler sounds fun, but the disadvantages seem to outweigh any advantages.
9
Comments
Swashbucklers are a single class fighter thief, with no skill penalty and leveling on the rogue table, and yet gains large boosts to hit/ac/damage, as well as the opportunity to get an extra +1 hit, +2 damage. They are already well compensated. The only change I might recommend (since my original suggestion will never happen) is taking the RRB approach and give them *** two-weapon style at creation, to offset their thief proficiency progression (In BG1, you have to choose between specializing immediately and taking till end game to dual-wield in any affective manner, or wait until the end to specialize and be unable to DW effectively till lvl 4). In BG1, even fighters barely get 2 base attacks, and in BG2, dual-speed weapons eliminate the disadvantage...and since they level so fast, you'll stack bonuses very quickly, and once you hit 24+, can begin to take WWA, to remove reliance on speed weapons for +4 and above enemies (UAI allows the use of SN, which also has a rather nasty on hit poison attack, and since's normally monk only, it can't be used to BS anyway...though it's still a good back-up weapon vs BS immune stuff).
Or you could go the other way.
Remove all their damage and hit bonuses, but give them an extra +1/2 attack at level 7 and 13, and from specialization.
I'm only advocating the extra +1/2 attack from specialization, not from levels.
Crit resistance is a high level magical property and shouldn't be readily available as it is now.
Extra APR for Swashies via proficiency here!
I hadn't checked in-game but you are right. I normally blow past that area during character creation so I hadn't really thought about it.
Another option would be is to just remove any idea of Specialization in proficiencies for "the Swash" and replace it with something else... such as a passive +1/2 APR that is gained at level 9?
Maybe knock their skill points down to 20.
Fighter thac0 progression when using melee weapons.
+1 AC at creation
+1 melee damage/AC every 5 levels.
20 thief skill points per level. Cannot backstab.
Or
Fighter thac0 progression using melee weapons
+1 AC at creation
+1 HP per level
+1 melee damage/AC per 3 levels
15 thief points per level. Cannot backstab.
Really simple solution and won't take much time.
As for swashbucklers, they're not getting that extra 1/2 attack. The good news for the powergamers is that this has been extrernalized into a 2da so that non-fighters can now gain the extra attacks from specialization.
how editing what proficiency points do? Like bringing TWS down to 2 points? or is that a different part? Or even customize what each point of a proficiency does for each class (be nice to be able restrict M/C fighters to expertise as well).
Below are the relevant 2da files for weapons and proficiencies. Some of these 2das were already in BG2's engine, some are in the current EE build, and some in the next patch. weapprof and clswpbon are per kit, profs and profsmax are per class, and wspatck and wspecial are universal (though wspatck may or may not apply based on the per-kit clswpbon):
weapprof lets you set how many stars a given kit/class can put into each weapon or weapon style.
clswpbon lets you set the non-proficiency penalties (i.e. mages are -5, fighters -2) and whether a class/kit gets the extra attacks from proficiencies.
profs let you set how many stars a class starts with, and when they get new ones.
profsmax lets you cap how many of those initial stars can be spent in one proficiency at character creation (i.e. a level 1 fighter starts with four stars, but can't sink all four of them into one weapon due to profsmax being set to two).
wspatck determines the APR bonuses for weapon proficiencies based on level and stars. This is applied or not based on clswpbon--by default, only warriors use it.
wspecial determines the thac0, damage, and weapon speed bonuses for varying levels of proficiency.
It's like handing over to a Mage Kit the ability to Specialize in weapons, but you lose ability to use any and all level 1-2 spells... or even lose 1 memorization for each spell level. Either way, totally not worth it.
Well, I guess the Swash buckler will have to be an unusable class. No backstab, and no benefit to losing it.
NOT EVEN 1.5X or 2X BACKSTAB!
Swash Specialization = Garbage. END-A STORY-O!
A thief needs BS because they're worthless in straight melee...Swashies don't because, while they suffer a little early on, by BG2, they're out-damaging fighters, and are ridiculously powerful in ToB where damn near everything is immune to backstab, and they're pushing near full progression of their abilities. (Hence why I suggest weaker, but faster ability acquisition to help pad their early game strength while keeping their end-game strength slightly less then a straight fighter, but able to bring additional benefits to compensate, where as all the fighter can do is hit things).