@Dee Humans cant have Fighter/thief multiclass. Swashbucklers are ( or should be ) something like that in single class. Instead backstabing they get AC and DMG bonus and instead APR they get... wait something is wrong.
Again, you're mistaking the swashbuckler for a replacement for the fighter (or, I suppose, for a fighter/thief multiclass).
The swashbuckler exchanges the thief's backstab multiplier for: • +1 bonus to Armor Class at 1st level, plus an additional +1 bonus every 5 levels. • +1 bonus to hit and damage rolls every 5 levels. • May Specialize (two slots) in any melee weapon available to Thieves. • May place 3 slots into Two Weapon Style.
It is not a replacement for the Fighter class, nor is it a perfect replacement for a Fighter/Thief multiclass. As a player, you get to determine whether the advantages (AC, THAC0, and Damage bonuses, the ability to dual-wield, and the ability to specialize with melee weapons) outweigh the kit's single disadvantage (no backstab multiplier).
Comparing the kit to anything other than the base Thief class is a red herring, because you're comparing the kit to a class from an entirely different category.
@Dee I show you something funny ( @CamDawg you should look too )
Stalker: Advantages: +20% stealth ability. Access to 3 mage spells as 3rd level divine spells. These are Haste, Protection from Normal Missiles, and Minor Spell Deflection. May backstab at a reduced progression rate than thieves (level 1-8 = x2, 9-16 = x3, 17+ = x4) Disadvantages: May not wear armor greater than studded leather.
+ 01) He have Two Weapon Style like swashbuckler ( And he is specialize from start ! ) 02) Much more weapons option then swashbuckler 03) Same armor like swashbuckler 04) He can specialize on ranged weapons 05) He have +½ APR 06) More HP 07) Better THAC0 08) Few usefull spells 09) The Stalker's Haste spell does not fatigue you after its effects wear off. 10) Have exquisite strength 11) He can use helm 12) He can backstab ! ( And more )
- 01) No basic thief skills ( except stealth ) 02) Few bonus to AC and DMG what have swashbuckler
Hmm, this look like superior version of swashbuckler. No big disadvantages and SO MANY benefits. ... .. . So, do you still think that +½ APR for swashbuckler is too much ?
I don't know that it's too much, but--again--you're comparing apples to oranges. The Stalker is a Ranger kit (and an unusually potent one, I might add), and is not designed to fill the same role as the swashbuckler.
If you want to convince people that the swashbuckler needs a boost--in everyone's game, not just yours (as it would be with a mod)--you're going about it the wrong way. Try comparing the kit to the Thief--or even the Assassin or other thief kits.
The question isn't so much whether the bonus APR would be too much for the swashbuckler, but rather whether the swashbuckler needs the boost that would come from an extra half attack per round, in addition to the bonuses to AC, damage, and THAC0, to make up for the loss of Backstab. I'm still not convinced that it does.
Consider this: The backstab multiplier is a situational benefit that requires time and planning to set up, has a chance of failure, and grants a significant bonus to the damage of one attack. The swashbuckler gives up this situational ability for a passive bonus to Armor Class, THAC0, and damage against all enemies, all the time.
That's not even taking into consideration the swashbuckler's potential to specialize, gaining an additional bonus to THAC0 and damage with a single weapon type, or the swashbuckler's potential to dual-wield, which grants further bonuses based on equipment.
Well....A...the stalker in no way resembles it's PnP incarnation (and Bioware absolutely sucked at making/translating kits), and B, as mentioned several times before, kits are NOT balanced against other classes, the only thing that matters is, is it completely superior or extremely worse then the base class (in either case it means it's a bad kit and needs to rebalanced. The Base classes have already been balanced around each other (well...balanced is a bit of a misnomer, but suffice to say the dynamic is working as intended), and as long as a kit is overall no better or worse then the base class, it won't change the dynamic of the base game beyond what's already been deemed acceptable).
Bioware's problem is, they have no $%#^ing idea how to implement classes without completely destroying what little balance is inherent to the system. No rest limits automatically make prime spell-casters better then any other class. And most spells and kits are lacking their proper penalties on top. And some the classes, like the poor bard and it's kits have just been battered into the ground by the nerf bat with no compensation at all and totally screwed up their dynamic by making the hardcore support kit a melee fighter, the hardcore melee fighter a support kit, the jester flat out better then the base bard, and the bard himself a gimped and nigh useless shadow of his true glory. Also vanilla thieves (and ONLY vanilla theives) lacking their ability to cast spells from scrolls at level 10. Fighter kits not being restricted to specialization only. Rangers, Multi-fighters (and X>Fighter Duals), Paladins able to specialize at all (supposed to be restricted to Expertise (+1 hit, +1 damage, no extra attack)), the fact that Fighter>X duals can place additional points beyond proficiency (they actually did this correctly in BG1....why on earth did they screw it up in BG2 and beyond????), the priest kits in no way resemble actual kits, even the ones they're blatantly modeled after and completely lack any of the perks/penalties they should have. Specialist mages are treated as kits and lack 95% of their benefits, but only half their penalties. R/C F'd up spell-casting. F/D not having proper equipment restrictions (supposed to be the same as a single class druid). The berserker in general (which is kind of sad, since it's just a bunch of little things missing/added that make the class so stupidly broken). Two-weapon style being horribly mangled. And about 5 more pages worth of stuff I could rant about, but could probably be easily looked up, since I've covered pretty much all of it at some point or another.
(the PnP stalker is identical to a ranger except they deal 1d6 extra damage on their first attack from stealth and have a slightly higher stealth bonus and don't suffer penalties for using tracking/stealth in urban settings (rangers normally suffer a 50% penalty when attempting to track or use stealth in urben settings) but these bonuses are rendered useless if they don't wear armor that allows stealth (and if you are using the trap making NCP, stalkers have a * in it at creation, so, should technically be able to use traps). That's it. They do have penalties on top but they don't translate well to BG (they can only have 2d6 followers at MAXIMUM, and law enforcement groups dislike them and they suffer much worse reactions when doing something illegal.
And yes....I've spent about a page and a half's worth explaining why the swashbuckler is already overpowered. Backstab is useless in late SoA and beyond, and that leaves them a ranger who can cast IH 3 times but can't wear anything but light armor (where as the swashbuckler is only bested in AC levels by blades, or a LOT cheese, and is grossly superior to the that one in offense (discounting exploits)). The current stalker is a gimped version of a F/T (and as we've covered druid spells prior to 4th are worthless...so the IH they shouldn't have is the ONLY useful thing spell-wise they can do), who lacks the one thing of value a thief actually does....locks/traps/DI.
Possible Stalker fixes? Give them a flat 2x BS and 1 level slower spell progression (and no bonus spells). The +20 stealth is fine, and light armor only restriction is fine. And if you want to be 100% accurate, give them a 5% set trap per level (capped at 10 for 50%), with 1 set snare at creation, and another every 5 levels after (2nd at 6 and so on).
In short....BG is a collection of totally imbalanced and illogical, often contradictory, house rules made by a 11 year old trying to DM with no concept of balance or challenge...or someone with the mindset of one.
Except that the Stalker isn't a fighter, it's a ranger.
Again, you have to draw the comparison between the swashbuckler and either the base thief class or the other thief kits. Because if the swashbuckler isn't powerful enough, then the Thief class certainly isn't either.
Again, you have to draw the comparison between the swashbuckler and either the base thief class or the other thief kits. Because if the swashbuckler isn't powerful enough, then the Thief class certainly isn't either.
Thieves are thieves. Swashbuckler is thief what supposed to be decent fighter.
@Edvin They have an extra half attack they aren't supposed to have if BG wasn't so $%#^ implemented.
Only single class fighters can specialize (+1 hit, +2 damage, +1/2 attack), and only true class fighters can go beyond specialization. Paladin, rangers, X>Fighter duals, and Multi-fighters are supposed to be restricted to expertise (+1 hit, +1 damage).
And Fighter>X duals aren't supposed to be able to go beyond proficiency after dualing.
No........a swashbuckler (thief-version) is supposed to be a decent fighter....for a thief. Which they are, none of the other thief kits can even compete (and don't get me started on the poor assassin), and that's not even counting the nerf to TWF...and in fact are TOO good and need the crap nerf'd out of them as I've spent most of the thread thus far pointing out.
Meanwhile the Swashbuckler (fighter-version) trades medium/heavy armor, shields (except bucklers), and greater combat proficiency (capped at specialization) for slightly higher base movement speed, a small amount of bonus AC (capping realistically at +6 (though +7 would be possible in BG, +8 for gnome) but requires a large investment in intelligence to get more then +3 (2 base as part of the class, and 1 from the minimum required int), and the ability to buy rogue pool NCP at normal cost (and no, that doesn't include ANY of the utility of a thief, it just makes them potentially more effective in certain situations a straight fighter normally wouldn't contribute meaningfully and gives them something to spend their extra NCP points from having incentive to have high int on).
(A lot of this would be fixed quickly by simply making the kit closer to PnP.
Fighter thac0 with melee weapons. x2 BS that never increases. ** single weapon style at creation with a bonus +2 ac. When wielding a single, 1 handed melee weapon they get 1 full bonus attack at no penalty. An at-will instant ability that lets them buff themselves with a -4 AC penalty/+4 melee damage buff (non-stacking) for 1 round. (this much is PnP-accurate, as are the penalties mentioned later)
And for every 3 levels can make an on-next hit attack with a -4 hit penalty, that if it connects reduces the enemies melee damage by 8 (to a minimum of 1) for 5 rounds with no save (only works vs enemies carrying weapons). (suggested implementation of their unique Disarm technique with in BG's system)
Only receives 20 thief points per level (And only 30 points at creation, instead of 40) and their backstab never improves beyond x2 (and if vanilla thieves are ever given their proper 10+ scroll usage, swashbucklers don't get it).
Some of the comparisons here seem to miss the point that this is game intended for a party. The question then isn't whether character A is more powerful than character B; it's whether character A can replace character B in a party without loss.
In the case of swashbucklers, they can pick locks and disarm traps. If you want someone in the party who can (continuously) do that, you need a thief or a thief kit. The matter of how a given thief compares to a non-thief is irrelevant to that question. (Yes, there are magic workarounds to both, but that's a different matter.)
In PnP D&D, where each person controls only one character, maybe there's a case for looking at more detailed balance issues (though even then I think that's a very overrated concern). But in BG2, where the player controls the whole party, comparing characters who can't fill each others' roles seems unhelpful.
Looks like a Fighter/Thief will have to be the way to go. Swashbuckler is just a Fighter/Thief-light.
Insta-kill works like a charm with Grandmastery and 3x or 4x backstab, along with the full defensive benefits of health, armor, weaponry etc.
Oh sure, if Backstab immune creatures are hanging around, no fear. This guy has plenty of health, AC, and can dish out the damage multiple times a round.
Whereas if a Swashbuckler MISSES (OMG forbid that happen!), a Fighter/Thief will be able to keep up in APR instead of just hanging out taking loads of damage and hits. In other words, most enemies will often have over 1 APR and will thus have more opportunities to damage the Swashbuckler. What's that you say? Wield a second weapon? Sure, for a loss of TWO AC and 5% critical... sure, right?
If a Swashbuckler is meant to be the "fighter among Thieves" he's still very lacking.
Where as a normal Fighter/Thief will only need to backstab once (in MANY cases), this guy will have to endure combat with much more vulnerability.
No. The current mechanic, which states that warriors are the only ones who receive the bonus attacks per round, will remain in place. But we've externalized things so that if you wish to change this in your own game, it is fairly straight-forward to do so.
Huh, so only fighters should have +½ APR from weapon specialization. Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians and Swashbuckler can have weapon specialization too, but somehow is Swashbuckler only one who dont have +½ APR. This isn´t much fair. You should decide, +½ APR for all who have weapon specialization or ONLY for Fighters.
Or we could leave it the way it's been for fifteen years (and the way that the game's actual text suggests it should work) and give you the tools to change it for your own game.
Yes, but if you leave all things on the way it's been for fifteen years, then we dont need "Enchanced edition". This maybe ( only maybe ) isn´t bug, but it is at least on the edge.
Yes, but if you leave all things on the way it's been for fifteen years, then we dont need "Enchanced edition". This maybe ( only maybe ) isn´t bug, but it is at least on the edge.
It's definitely not a bug; it's working as intended. The fact that you want it to work differently is why there's a feature request (although so far no one has even bothered to make an argument for it that doesn't involve comparing this thief kit to other thief kits or the base thief class).
We dont need comparing Swashbuckler with other thief kits or the base thief class because other thief kits and base thief class don´t have access to weapon specialization.
We dont need comparing Swashbuckler with other thief kits or the base thief class because other thief kits and base thief class don´t have access to weapon specialization.
You don't need to compare them to fighters since fighters can't find traps or pick locks.
It's supposed to be a thief kit that's more adept at melee combat than other thieves.
Comments
The only thing it loses from the Thief class is backstab. In return, it gets a number of benefits that thieves don't typically get.
Humans cant have Fighter/thief multiclass.
Swashbucklers are ( or should be ) something like that in single class.
Instead backstabing they get AC and DMG bonus and instead APR they get... wait something is wrong.
With more opinion like that we can successfully conclude this topic very fast.
The swashbuckler exchanges the thief's backstab multiplier for:
• +1 bonus to Armor Class at 1st level, plus an additional +1 bonus every 5 levels.
• +1 bonus to hit and damage rolls every 5 levels.
• May Specialize (two slots) in any melee weapon available to Thieves.
• May place 3 slots into Two Weapon Style.
It is not a replacement for the Fighter class, nor is it a perfect replacement for a Fighter/Thief multiclass. As a player, you get to determine whether the advantages (AC, THAC0, and Damage bonuses, the ability to dual-wield, and the ability to specialize with melee weapons) outweigh the kit's single disadvantage (no backstab multiplier).
Comparing the kit to anything other than the base Thief class is a red herring, because you're comparing the kit to a class from an entirely different category.
I show you something funny
( @CamDawg you should look too )
Stalker:
Advantages: +20% stealth ability. Access to 3 mage spells as 3rd level divine spells. These are Haste, Protection from Normal Missiles, and Minor Spell Deflection. May backstab at a reduced progression rate than thieves (level 1-8 = x2, 9-16 = x3, 17+ = x4)
Disadvantages: May not wear armor greater than studded leather.
+
01) He have Two Weapon Style like swashbuckler ( And he is specialize from start ! )
02) Much more weapons option then swashbuckler
03) Same armor like swashbuckler
04) He can specialize on ranged weapons
05) He have +½ APR
06) More HP
07) Better THAC0
08) Few usefull spells
09) The Stalker's Haste spell does not fatigue you after its effects wear off.
10) Have exquisite strength
11) He can use helm
12) He can backstab !
( And more )
-
01) No basic thief skills ( except stealth )
02) Few bonus to AC and DMG what have swashbuckler
Hmm, this look like superior version of swashbuckler.
No big disadvantages and SO MANY benefits.
...
..
.
So, do you still think that +½ APR for swashbuckler is too much ?
If you want to convince people that the swashbuckler needs a boost--in everyone's game, not just yours (as it would be with a mod)--you're going about it the wrong way. Try comparing the kit to the Thief--or even the Assassin or other thief kits.
The question isn't so much whether the bonus APR would be too much for the swashbuckler, but rather whether the swashbuckler needs the boost that would come from an extra half attack per round, in addition to the bonuses to AC, damage, and THAC0, to make up for the loss of Backstab. I'm still not convinced that it does.
Consider this: The backstab multiplier is a situational benefit that requires time and planning to set up, has a chance of failure, and grants a significant bonus to the damage of one attack. The swashbuckler gives up this situational ability for a passive bonus to Armor Class, THAC0, and damage against all enemies, all the time.
That's not even taking into consideration the swashbuckler's potential to specialize, gaining an additional bonus to THAC0 and damage with a single weapon type, or the swashbuckler's potential to dual-wield, which grants further bonuses based on equipment.
Bioware's problem is, they have no $%#^ing idea how to implement classes without completely destroying what little balance is inherent to the system. No rest limits automatically make prime spell-casters better then any other class. And most spells and kits are lacking their proper penalties on top. And some the classes, like the poor bard and it's kits have just been battered into the ground by the nerf bat with no compensation at all and totally screwed up their dynamic by making the hardcore support kit a melee fighter, the hardcore melee fighter a support kit, the jester flat out better then the base bard, and the bard himself a gimped and nigh useless shadow of his true glory. Also vanilla thieves (and ONLY vanilla theives) lacking their ability to cast spells from scrolls at level 10. Fighter kits not being restricted to specialization only. Rangers, Multi-fighters (and X>Fighter Duals), Paladins able to specialize at all (supposed to be restricted to Expertise (+1 hit, +1 damage, no extra attack)), the fact that Fighter>X duals can place additional points beyond proficiency (they actually did this correctly in BG1....why on earth did they screw it up in BG2 and beyond????), the priest kits in no way resemble actual kits, even the ones they're blatantly modeled after and completely lack any of the perks/penalties they should have. Specialist mages are treated as kits and lack 95% of their benefits, but only half their penalties. R/C F'd up spell-casting. F/D not having proper equipment restrictions (supposed to be the same as a single class druid). The berserker in general (which is kind of sad, since it's just a bunch of little things missing/added that make the class so stupidly broken). Two-weapon style being horribly mangled. And about 5 more pages worth of stuff I could rant about, but could probably be easily looked up, since I've covered pretty much all of it at some point or another.
(the PnP stalker is identical to a ranger except they deal 1d6 extra damage on their first attack from stealth and have a slightly higher stealth bonus and don't suffer penalties for using tracking/stealth in urban settings (rangers normally suffer a 50% penalty when attempting to track or use stealth in urben settings) but these bonuses are rendered useless if they don't wear armor that allows stealth (and if you are using the trap making NCP, stalkers have a * in it at creation, so, should technically be able to use traps). That's it. They do have penalties on top but they don't translate well to BG (they can only have 2d6 followers at MAXIMUM, and law enforcement groups dislike them and they suffer much worse reactions when doing something illegal.
And yes....I've spent about a page and a half's worth explaining why the swashbuckler is already overpowered. Backstab is useless in late SoA and beyond, and that leaves them a ranger who can cast IH 3 times but can't wear anything but light armor (where as the swashbuckler is only bested in AC levels by blades, or a LOT cheese, and is grossly superior to the that one in offense (discounting exploits)). The current stalker is a gimped version of a F/T (and as we've covered druid spells prior to 4th are worthless...so the IH they shouldn't have is the ONLY useful thing spell-wise they can do), who lacks the one thing of value a thief actually does....locks/traps/DI.
Possible Stalker fixes? Give them a flat 2x BS and 1 level slower spell progression (and no bonus spells). The +20 stealth is fine, and light armor only restriction is fine. And if you want to be 100% accurate, give them a 5% set trap per level (capped at 10 for 50%), with 1 set snare at creation, and another every 5 levels after (2nd at 6 and so on).
In short....BG is a collection of totally imbalanced and illogical, often contradictory, house rules made by a 11 year old trying to DM with no concept of balance or challenge...or someone with the mindset of one.
Swashbuckler = Thief/fighter
Stalker = Fighter/thief
First is thief with fighter skills, next is fighter with thief skills.
Is very convenient to compare them. We need to look at both sides of the coin.
Again, you have to draw the comparison between the swashbuckler and either the base thief class or the other thief kits. Because if the swashbuckler isn't powerful enough, then the Thief class certainly isn't either.
Swashbuckler is thief what supposed to be decent fighter.
They have an extra half attack they aren't supposed to have if BG wasn't so $%#^ implemented.
Only single class fighters can specialize (+1 hit, +2 damage, +1/2 attack), and only true class fighters can go beyond specialization. Paladin, rangers, X>Fighter duals, and Multi-fighters are supposed to be restricted to expertise (+1 hit, +1 damage).
And Fighter>X duals aren't supposed to be able to go beyond proficiency after dualing.
No........a swashbuckler (thief-version) is supposed to be a decent fighter....for a thief. Which they are, none of the other thief kits can even compete (and don't get me started on the poor assassin), and that's not even counting the nerf to TWF...and in fact are TOO good and need the crap nerf'd out of them as I've spent most of the thread thus far pointing out.
Meanwhile the Swashbuckler (fighter-version) trades medium/heavy armor, shields (except bucklers), and greater combat proficiency (capped at specialization) for slightly higher base movement speed, a small amount of bonus AC (capping realistically at +6 (though +7 would be possible in BG, +8 for gnome) but requires a large investment in intelligence to get more then +3 (2 base as part of the class, and 1 from the minimum required int), and the ability to buy rogue pool NCP at normal cost (and no, that doesn't include ANY of the utility of a thief, it just makes them potentially more effective in certain situations a straight fighter normally wouldn't contribute meaningfully and gives them something to spend their extra NCP points from having incentive to have high int on).
(A lot of this would be fixed quickly by simply making the kit closer to PnP.
Fighter thac0 with melee weapons.
x2 BS that never increases.
** single weapon style at creation with a bonus +2 ac.
When wielding a single, 1 handed melee weapon they get 1 full bonus attack at no penalty.
An at-will instant ability that lets them buff themselves with a -4 AC penalty/+4 melee damage buff (non-stacking) for 1 round.
(this much is PnP-accurate, as are the penalties mentioned later)
And for every 3 levels can make an on-next hit attack with a -4 hit penalty, that if it connects reduces the enemies melee damage by 8 (to a minimum of 1) for 5 rounds with no save (only works vs enemies carrying weapons). (suggested implementation of their unique Disarm technique with in BG's system)
Only receives 20 thief points per level (And only 30 points at creation, instead of 40) and their backstab never improves beyond x2 (and if vanilla thieves are ever given their proper 10+ scroll usage, swashbucklers don't get it).
That's a +5% chance to hit, and two extra damage every time you do. That's not an insignificant bonus.
In the case of swashbucklers, they can pick locks and disarm traps. If you want someone in the party who can (continuously) do that, you need a thief or a thief kit. The matter of how a given thief compares to a non-thief is irrelevant to that question. (Yes, there are magic workarounds to both, but that's a different matter.)
In PnP D&D, where each person controls only one character, maybe there's a case for looking at more detailed balance issues (though even then I think that's a very overrated concern). But in BG2, where the player controls the whole party, comparing characters who can't fill each others' roles seems unhelpful.
Insta-kill works like a charm with Grandmastery and 3x or 4x backstab, along with the full defensive benefits of health, armor, weaponry etc.
Oh sure, if Backstab immune creatures are hanging around, no fear. This guy has plenty of health, AC, and can dish out the damage multiple times a round.
Whereas if a Swashbuckler MISSES (OMG forbid that happen!), a Fighter/Thief will be able to keep up in APR instead of just hanging out taking loads of damage and hits. In other words, most enemies will often have over 1 APR and will thus have more opportunities to damage the Swashbuckler. What's that you say? Wield a second weapon? Sure, for a loss of TWO AC and 5% critical... sure, right?
If a Swashbuckler is meant to be the "fighter among Thieves" he's still very lacking.
Where as a normal Fighter/Thief will only need to backstab once (in MANY cases), this guy will have to endure combat with much more vulnerability.
So, if you do not plan add +½ APR to Swashbuckler, then you will definitely remove it from Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian, right ?
It's supposed to be a thief kit that's more adept at melee combat than other thieves.