You're WAY too obsessed with specialization to apparently realize they don't NEED it (AT ALL)...
They DON'T NEED it! That's the point. It's worthless for them to even have! A user would be better off expanding the different types of weapon the thief can use without penalty.
Dagger, Short Sword, Long Sword...
AND... people may argue that 3 points into Dual Weapon Prof. some how makes up for the other disadvantages, when I would be just as content in single weapon fighting and maintaining the ranged weapon benefits with the Short Bow that grants 3 APR.
Well, if PnP says they shouldn't get it, then they shouldn't get it... in vanilla BG:EE.
Nothing stops you from dropping a request in the BG2 tweak pack forums though. As far as I see here changing this would be a ten minute job for someone who knows what they're doing(and most of that time would be writing the proficiency descriptions).
It seems that Camdawg has given us the answer that the proficiencies will be moddable in the upcoming patches when the game is able to be distributed again.
Swashy's are better. While I generally agree that attacks per round are extremely powerful, Swashys have options to match or only get 1 less attack then fighters, but with enough bonus damage to equal to 2-3 extra attacks. So yes..actually swashies DO get more effective attacks then fighters (aside from Kensai, who suffer massive penalties for that extra power).
In BG1, it's not as pronounced because they haven't really started stacking bonuses. By BG2, they can dual-wield speed weapons to completely replace a fighter by having the same number of attacks, but for more damage then GM can apply. By ToB, they're a F/M/T with no disadvantages, a ton of bonuses, and full thac0 progression.
Do I think they're overpowered? Hell yes, almost berserker levels of broken. The loss of backstab is a joke for all the benefits they get, and it's not really a loss, because they're better in melee then fighters...which the whole reason thieves even have BS is because they suck in straight combat.
How do you manage to get the same number of attacks? Fighter can dual wield extra attack weapons as well they can also sub in with stronger weapons without losing bonus attacks that would reduce swashy to 1 attack per round, can dual to thief or mage for little to no loss in combat ability, they get grandmastery which levels out the lack of +damage that swashies get which is about +7 at the end of ToB.
Swashies get WWA as a HLA for 10 attacks per round, no matter the weapon (you really only need it for the 4 +4 enemies, and the thac0 penalty is a joke, because they ultimately hit 2 base thac0 before modifiers, and when using Tenser's/Shakti can end up with a base of -8 thac0).
They can dual-wield speed weapons to reach 8 attacks under IH (9 if they use the gauntlets of pwnage). Yes, fighters could use them too, but the swashy deals WAY more damage per round due to the 10 attack cap. 2-3 extra attacks worth, or roughly an entire extra character worth of attacks. If fighters could go over 10 attacks, then they'd have an advantage, of about 1 attack more damage.
Fighters being free to dual-class is a disadvantage.....they're accepting long downtime for less benefit. As mentioned above, a high level swashy is pretty much a F/M/T as a single class, with no real disadvantages.
Swashy can specialize, which means GM is only a +3 damage difference, vs the +8 class feature bonus a swashy gets (that in addition to their +2 from specialization (it's +10 total damage when using a specialized weapon). +2 is enough to hit pretty much all enemies aside from a handful of +3 and those can be put off until you get UAI and can use the SN (which also adds a nice on-hit poison in addition to being +3, and is normally reserved only to monks, so fighters can't use it).
Early BG1, they're slightly disadvantage, but better then a plain thief. By BG2, they start being comparable to fighters, and by ToB, they are god incarnate. The only trick they can't pull is Squencer or Contingency abuse...anything else you can come up with is probably do-able..as a single class character, who has never had to deal with down time and fights even better then a F/M dual ever could and gets GOBs of xp when removing traps/locks, since the xp you get is based on the thief level of a character, making it even easier to hit those high marks even faster.
1. Yes they get WWA and I did not mention it because both get it nor did I mention any HLA's as those are rather late and limited use. Neither did I mention Thac0.
2. Without speed weapons fighter can get 4 attacks per round dual wielding while swashies get 2 making 8 with IH for the fighter and 4 for swashy. Meaning fighter can wield harder hitting weapon with no penalty making up for the +damage swashies get which combines with GM.
3. Dual classing takes a short time to regain lost levels if dualed at 7, 9, or 13. If mage becomes god and if thief is equivalent to swashy if not more so with backstab.
4. As above +8 is late ToB without the ability to wield more damaging weapons without losing attacks per round.
5. Swashy is very versatile, but to say it is completely superior to fighter is rather short sighted, especially if the fighter dualed to thief allowing him use of UAI as well so he gets spellcasting from items as well.
6. As before dualing is a minor penalty if done early, and fighter will be superior to swashy in combat, while swashy will have more utility with trap finding, placing, and stealth.
Saying a fighter is even in the same league is being utterly blind.
Swashies bring more utility, with no delayed level-ups or downtime, fight just as good for most of the game (overkilling 95% of enemies in 1 hit by 6 damage and overkilling 95% of enemies in 1 hitby 11 damage actually doesn't matter much in the long run, and anything more then 5 attacks is actually wasted except a handful of enemies with enough hp to survive more then 1 round), 1/2 way through SoA can cast spells any use any equipment a fighter can, and slowly move ahead as their damage bonus grows.
Why on gods green earth would I ever make a F/T? Unless I want to backstab exclusively, removing any benefit of increased weapon selection? Playing as a horribly limited class with no utility, and then playing as weak class for a while and ending up overall weaker then I could've been by just picking and leveling straight swashy? That's not even a choice since only an idiot would pick a F/T. By the time you got your thief abilities back, the swashy would almost to UAI and have been getting huge gobs of xp from traps/locks, where as a lower level thief would be getting less.
the Swashy is better....it's easier, it requires no real planning, it brings a valuable utility member, it's a better straight up fighter in the end-game
F/M is slightly different, since it takes longer for the swashy to compete. At the end, is actually worse overall...since you're just a mage, with a permanent semi-tenser's.
@ZanathKariashi Please, explain me how a SB reaches 4apr (8 with IH). Because unless you plan to wield both Belm AND Kundane (or Scarlet Ninja-To) it's impossible. And sorry... but the damage output of those 2 weapons, even with the SB damage bonus, can't be compared to what a normal fighter can achieve.
Actually it is. Theres only a handful of weapons that deal enough damage to put them ahead, and it's only until the swashy gets WWA and can wield all the same weapons a fighter can.
As I said, it's in the end game where they are completely superior. In early SOA, they're only comparable to a fighter, though slowly moving ahead, their massive utility with no downtime easily off-sets the slightly lower damage and you get to those higher lock/trap xp reward amounts faster which means the whole party levels faster. And by lower damage I mean with much less wasted overkill damage. (even a plain thief with high str can chunk most enemies easily in straight melee using a single speed weapon, and while less effective until thac0 capped, can even dual-wield them under IH for similar results to a fighter, minus specialization benefits of course).
A Swashy is a superior fighter thief, that eventually becomes flat out superior to both, and doesn't really require any special planning, slowed development, or downtime to achieve. You just play. And the fact in the end they're superior, accepting downtime in the first place is ridiculous, since you're literally penalizing yourself for less overall benefit.
Technically speaking for a most of SoA a F/T dual would be better, but is grossly inferior once you hit late SoA or ToB since BS becomes useless, and was the only way for a F/T to compete.
Let's assume the following, as you're harping on the superiority of speed weapons and the swashy attack+damage bonus in combination with it:
Swashy Max level, swashy with speed weapons, STR irrelevant (both can get to 25), swashy with 2 pips in scimitar and 3 in two-weapon fighting.
Swashy ThAC0 2 kit damage bonus 8 prof bonus ThAC0 1 prof bonus damage 2 scarlet average damage 7.5 (poison excluded as a simple paralyze/death save is allowed) belm " " 6.5
4 attacks per round, 3x scarlet as main, 1xbelm as off + 4x prof bonus damage+ 4xkit damage bonus =69 average damage per round with main at ThAC0 -2 and off at ThAC0 1
Plain Fighter Max level, flail of ages+5 and foebane+5, STR irrelevant, 5 pips each in flails and bastard swords and 3 in two-weapon fighting.
4 attacks per round, 3x foa as main, 1x foebane as off + 4x prof bonus damage =88.5 average damage per round with main at ThAC0 -7 and off at ThAC0 -5
As a swashy can't use foa and foebane he has to make do with the next best thing, angurvadal+5 (avg dam 13) and spectral brand+5 (avg dam 13) for his WWA (which has a ThAC0 and damage penalty of 4). 10x13+10x8+10x2-10x4 = 190 average damage per round, but with a ThAC0 penalty of 4
A fighter just uses the same weapons (foa and foebane), but as he's got GWWA, he'll use that instead of WWA. 9x19.5+14+10x4 = 229.5 average damage per round, without any penalties
Additionally, if you'd be using a true grandmastery mod, the difference would be even more pronounced. And if you'd run those calculations against a kensai or a kensai->thief dual (just in case you argue with survivability) the swashy loses, big time.
Uhhh....swashy can use FOA (and there's absolutely no point in dual-wielding at all if you're going to use WWA or GWW, because the FoA is the strongest weapon by a large margin and you're losing 1 swing with it by dual-wielding). If they have SN, they have UAI, and the FoA is perfectly useable with UAI. Equip FoA MH, optionally a shield of some sort off-hand for extra bonuses or empty, cast tenser's from a scroll, and use WWA till the enemy dies (results in a net gain of 1 thac0 more then a fighter can achieve (or might be dead even...if GM is +2 hit, it's 1 in favor, and if it's +3, it's even)), for +4 damage more per hit then a fighter can achieve).
And we haven't even really considered the fact they have traps (Didn't see a point bringing them up since the swashy has more raw melee damage anyway (40 more damage per round)). Even if you don't buy any of the epic traps (aka, just getting UAI and a crap ton of WWA), they have a boat-load of normal snares that deal a bunch of direct damage, a bunch of damage over time and require a save or DIE and by 40 they've got like...10 per day or so.
I already said a kensai was better because they get the same hit/damage bonuses, except gain it even faster. They're just one-diminsional and lacking utility unless you sacrifice 80% of your class bonus by dualing into a mage.
Umm if swashy is using foa it doesn't have 4 attacks you would instead be at 3 so 6 with IH so not 8 still less damage, and if wwa is used it's a 6 second duration where as fighter can reach 10 attacks using extra long duration IH for much more damage. Then add in dual class mage you are invulnerable if thief you get BS, traps, lockpick, and UAI assuming we are going with high levels of course since you are deadset on that.
That's the point...you overkill everything already dual-wielding speed weapons with IH (9 attacks total with +8 (+10 if specialized) extra per hit), aside from the handful of enemies who have 250 or more hp, to which you can use FoA under WWA with tenser's.
Play the damn class and then talk. Because you find pretty damn quickly that I'm 100% correct.
As for the dual-class, it loses automatically, because you HAD to dual-class, where as the Swashy just leveled straight. A swashy is already a F/T in a single class, that trades better melee then a fighter in place of BS that they don't need because they no longer suck in straight melee.
Why do you keep talking about overkilling things? If an enemy dies then you can use your additional attacks that round on different enemies. It means you kill more things in a round.
Personally I prefer the fighter because they do more damage while not hasted/whirlwinding. I just find it more convenient most of the time. But I agree that the swashy has a higher potential damage output.
Actually you don't....5 enemies is the absolute max you can kill in round, assuming you pause liberally and do not have to move to strike them, just cycling targets. Without going to that extreme, you'll likely only kill about 2-3 enemies, depending on whether you move or not. Moving costs you about 2 attacks (assuming 10 attacks in a round). The fewer attacks, the slower they come out, and the less precise your timing has to be to maximize them. You can really only fully benefit from 10 attacks on enemies with enough health to take that many in a round.
Where does 9 damage from gm come from? It's only +5. (+3 over what a Swashy gets from profs)
At 15 a swashbuckler using a specialized weapon has the same damage as GM. And it just goes up from there.
All a swashy has to do to compete is dual-wield speed weapons to make up the attack per round deficit. And at epic, once they can start stacking WWA, they don't even have to rely on that anymore for vs tough enemies. The biggest difference comes from the 10 attack cap. While a non-IH fighter can deal more attacks dualing speed weapons, a swashbuckler pulls ahead under IH because they deal enough extra damage to amount to 11 (9 base under IH, for 45 more damage, or roughly 2 more attacks), while a fighter is stuck at 10. And under WWA, the swashy is simply better in raw damage for the same weapons and same number of attacks. You also can't discount magic as it is a part of the single class. It's like saying we're going to compare swash and fighter, but swashy can't use scrolls and fighter's can't have specialization (or loses their extra warrior attacks).
And as I've mentioned about 5 times....they're only superior at epic levels. They're just comparable during most of SoA. But again...as a single class, with a lot of utility, and no downtime, where as a fighter can only hit things and has to go through downtime or deal with high stat requirements to compete at higher levels.
And at epic levels, as a single class, are a no penalty F/M/T with extra melee damage and basically a permanent suit of full plate, that stacks with other armor sources (their AC is actually high enough that the typical "AC is useless" comment actually doesn't apply to them. Even Demogorgon and Ravager can miss about 30% of the time (BEFORE going crazy with AC boosting spells), where as they normally don't ever.
@ZanathKariashi Isn't much better ( and faster ) simply play Kensai and dual to thief on lvl 13 ? You will get "All items to use" before SoA end, you have superior dmg, great bonuses and abilites, you can backstab and also have more thief skills then swashbuckler. If we have something what is that insanely strong, why we need "weak" guys like Swashbuckler ? Someone who is Fighter/thief kit, shoul be little bit stronger and be useful from begining and not on end unbalanced expansion.
And your entire paragraph just described why the swashbuckler is better than a 13 dual-kensief, so I don't even have to touch on that. But i will anyway, since laymen wouldn't get it.
Swashbuckler in BG 1 = Vanilla Thief with +ac/hit/damage instead of Backstab, and can specialize and get 3 TWF. Automatically better then a Kensai, who has no advantages in BG1 at all. they hit a little bit harder then a fighter, but also get hit a lot more, and requires haste from some source to truly excel.
Swashbuckler in early to mid SoA = Continues stacking their hit/damage/ac, continues being just as effective as a normal thief, and finally gets the means to counter their APR deficient that was holding them back behind warriors.
Kensai spends 5 levels doing what they normally do (hitting things a little harder then a plain fighter and having no other utility while relying heavily on haste to get them into chunking range) and nothing else. And then gets to become a thief who can't equip armor/bracers/ranged weapons, for almost 1 million experience (not to mention resulting in MUCH less xp from locks/traps then a swashy of equal xp would be getting). And then needs another 10 levels before they can remove those disadvantages. Coincidentally, about the time you get your Kensai bonuses back, enemies are no longer worth the effort of setting up a backstab or are immune (which is why the Kensief is fun on paper and worthless in practice).
Swashbuckler in Late SoA and ToB - Gets access to all items, and unlike the K/T, gets WWA, giving them the freedom to wield whatever weapons they want (FoA) on enemies whom dual-speed weapons under IH would be less effective or useless).
K/T on the other hand, could get 10 attacks under IH using 1 speed weapon, but would sacrifice TWO attacks to their off-hand weapon (and yes, under IH TWO attacks are made with the off-hand, unlike DWing with WWA or GWW which only sacrifices 1 (though you should drop the off-hand for empty or shield before using WWA anyway), which can't harm the big 4). And they'd also have 1 less thac0 and 7 less AC then a swashy would using the exact same buffs/equipment.
So yeah....Swashy is still better. MUCH better. Hence what I'm going with here. They're better at the beginning, better at the end, and comparable in the middle, but without any thought having to go into the process or suffering even 1 level of downtime. Swashy wins. You did say, which is easier? Well...Swashy is...obviously..and it's ultimately stronger to boot.
You'd have to dual at 15 Kensai to compete at the end-game, which utterly throws efficiency out the window by massively decreasing the amount of time you're playing the class you wanted to play before the game ends, while the swashy is already there the moment you finish character creation.
And this coming from someone who loves Kensai....of course I also feel strongly that Kensai are best then left single class, so they can stack their gobs of damage that don't really become truly significant until 18+, with enough charges to Kai to go through entire dungeons without resting when combined with IH.
Throwing axes with a kensai is very powerful early mid and late game which negates their AC deficiency while capitalizing on their bonuses such as kai which you left out coincidentally. Then you also assume swashy automatically gets 3 points in TWF which means they have to spend their limited thief proficiency points on that along with specializing in weapons which further lowers their combat usefulness early on. Finally add in that their combat bonuses are still lower than a fighter until late game they have less damage until TOB and even then fighter still outdamages or breaks even with them while getting hardiness, max AC, critical strikes, 10 attacks with IH, and full con bonuses.
I get you love swashy, but in melee power fighter is still the undeniable best for 99 percent. Utility wise dual thief loses out on WWA, crit strikes and hardiness, but gains the same semi magic capabilities as swashy as well as thief utilities for 10 minutes as a stronger than normal thief and they don't even need wwa which is in TOB to achieve 10 attacks or last for 1 round with IH which also means they don't need to use "both" belm, kundane or SN which means he can wield FoA 100 percent of the time instead of the 2 bosses a swashy would use it on.
As of this post I am done with the comparisons. If you wish to continue we should do as Dee says and make a thread dedicated to it.
@ZanathKariashi Isn't much better ( and faster ) simply play Kensai and dual to thief on lvl 13 ? You will get "All items to use" before SoA end, you have superior dmg, great bonuses and abilites, you can backstab and also have more thief skills then swashbuckler. If we have something what is that insanely strong, why we need "weak" guys like Swashbuckler ? Someone who is Fighter/thief kit, shoul be little bit stronger and be useful from begining and not on end unbalanced expansion.
BTW, i hate Kensai/thief combination.
To somewhat touch on something ZanathKariashi brought up If you dual from Kensai to Thief at 13 you won't get any HLA until you reach 3,080,000 XP (level 24) with your thief class, so with a level 13 fighter thats 4.33 million total experience. Basically that means you'll be fighting for about 2 million experience with no ability to wear armour and the ability to backstab only some of that time.
Since Belm and SN are Scimitars you can specialize in Scimitars and devote the rest of your points to dual-wielding ( 1- 1 Scimitar, 1 TWF, 4 - 1 TWF, 8- 1 Scimitar, 12 - SS, 16 - Either SS or TWF, after that it no longer matters since you'll either have SN/Belm or using FoA which you can't put points in). Kudane can be wielded off-hand and really only needs proficiency to do well (also I consider the 3rd point of TWF a complete waste and never pick it up on any character, allowing proficiency in SS at 12, which is reached long before you will generally even have Kuudane.
Yeah...unlike a Multi-class that gets HLA based on total xp (once they pass 3 mil), dual's gain HLA as if they were single class at the proper levels. So a dual gains access to HLA slower then a single class will.
Yeah...I'm pretty much done too...I've already counter perfectly every situation, barring extreme duals, which lose by default, but people continue to ignore it, so just repeating the effectively the same thing for another time is largely pointless.
Back to the original point.....they don't need extra attacks from specialization because they're already better. Adding even a single 1/2 attack massively increases the swashy's overall power even further, which they already have WAY too many bonuses (if anything, the swashy needs nerfed).
Specialization and Attacks per Round: this is the focus.
Will +½ APR really break the Swashbuckler, who is a Fighter/Thief light?
All this assuming of having in hand all of the late game items and late game abilities. What about Joe Swashbuckler? We should have a perspective of Start to Finish.
Another thing is that Swashbuckler does not get, in addition to standard Helmet protection, is an exquisite strength bonus, only a flat 18.
Compare stats too... Both Warrior and Thief stats would be like so: 18 (96) 18 18 10 10 10
Granting a Swashbuckler exquisite strength would be a nice little bonus, but it wouldn't do well from start to finish in many cases.
Replacing the ability of Specialization in weapons would be best replaced with a Level 9 +½ APR bonus.
That's my point...they're a fighter/thief light....as a single class, with no real disadvantage and a lot of benefits. The lack of BS only really hurts them in BG1...and only minor, since it encourages you to avoid stealth skills, allowing you to boost DI and/or Set traps instead, in addition to focus on locks/traps.
Early game...they're mostly a thief. Once they get the Str manual, they can start competing with fighters, due to the latter's lack of attacks (fighters are still better at this point..but utterly lacking in utility). (An early dual F/T will deal more damage, but be completely gimped in BG2, and depends on an engine exploit that I in no way encourage or condone).
Fun fact...unless they nerf the $%#^ out of it between now and then, a Dwarven Defender is immortal in BG2, cause someone didn't have the foresight to look ahead.
You HAVE to consider the whole, and from the WHOLE picture a swashbuckler is already brokenly powerful and needs further nerfs, instead of buffs.
A compromise, as mentioned earlier would be to speed up their rate of benefit gain, but cap it at level 15 and reduce thief skills to 20 per level, everything else staying the same.
That would give them a slightly stronger BG1 presence, and allow them to achieve their full glory very early in BG2, but only be comparable to a F/T dual, instead of completely superior in the end-game, albeit with no downtime at all, and the joy of knowing that you've been playing the class you wanted to play immediately, rather then having to wait for the sequel to experience what was ultimately inferior to what you could've had for less disadvantage.
Comments
In fact, attacks per round > few damage more.
Dagger, Short Sword, Long Sword...
AND... people may argue that 3 points into Dual Weapon Prof. some how makes up for the other disadvantages, when I would be just as content in single weapon fighting and maintaining the ranged weapon benefits with the Short Bow that grants 3 APR.
Nothing stops you from dropping a request in the BG2 tweak pack forums though. As far as I see here changing this would be a ten minute job for someone who knows what they're doing(and most of that time would be writing the proficiency descriptions).
Swashy's are better. While I generally agree that attacks per round are extremely powerful, Swashys have options to match or only get 1 less attack then fighters, but with enough bonus damage to equal to 2-3 extra attacks. So yes..actually swashies DO get more effective attacks then fighters (aside from Kensai, who suffer massive penalties for that extra power).
In BG1, it's not as pronounced because they haven't really started stacking bonuses. By BG2, they can dual-wield speed weapons to completely replace a fighter by having the same number of attacks, but for more damage then GM can apply. By ToB, they're a F/M/T with no disadvantages, a ton of bonuses, and full thac0 progression.
Do I think they're overpowered? Hell yes, almost berserker levels of broken. The loss of backstab is a joke for all the benefits they get, and it's not really a loss, because they're better in melee then fighters...which the whole reason thieves even have BS is because they suck in straight combat.
They can dual-wield speed weapons to reach 8 attacks under IH (9 if they use the gauntlets of pwnage).
Yes, fighters could use them too, but the swashy deals WAY more damage per round due to the 10 attack cap. 2-3 extra attacks worth, or roughly an entire extra character worth of attacks. If fighters could go over 10 attacks, then they'd have an advantage, of about 1 attack more damage.
Fighters being free to dual-class is a disadvantage.....they're accepting long downtime for less benefit. As mentioned above, a high level swashy is pretty much a F/M/T as a single class, with no real disadvantages.
Swashy can specialize, which means GM is only a +3 damage difference, vs the +8 class feature bonus a swashy gets (that in addition to their +2 from specialization (it's +10 total damage when using a specialized weapon). +2 is enough to hit pretty much all enemies aside from a handful of +3 and those can be put off until you get UAI and can use the SN (which also adds a nice on-hit poison in addition to being +3, and is normally reserved only to monks, so fighters can't use it).
Early BG1, they're slightly disadvantage, but better then a plain thief. By BG2, they start being comparable to fighters, and by ToB, they are god incarnate. The only trick they can't pull is Squencer or Contingency abuse...anything else you can come up with is probably do-able..as a single class character, who has never had to deal with down time and fights even better then a F/M dual ever could and gets GOBs of xp when removing traps/locks, since the xp you get is based on the thief level of a character, making it even easier to hit those high marks even faster.
2. Without speed weapons fighter can get 4 attacks per round dual wielding while swashies get 2 making 8 with IH for the fighter and 4 for swashy. Meaning fighter can wield harder hitting weapon with no penalty making up for the +damage swashies get which combines with GM.
3. Dual classing takes a short time to regain lost levels if dualed at 7, 9, or 13. If mage becomes god and if thief is equivalent to swashy if not more so with backstab.
4. As above +8 is late ToB without the ability to wield more damaging weapons without losing attacks per round.
5. Swashy is very versatile, but to say it is completely superior to fighter is rather short sighted, especially if the fighter dualed to thief allowing him use of UAI as well so he gets spellcasting from items as well.
6. As before dualing is a minor penalty if done early, and fighter will be superior to swashy in combat, while swashy will have more utility with trap finding, placing, and stealth.
Swashies bring more utility, with no delayed level-ups or downtime, fight just as good for most of the game (overkilling 95% of enemies in 1 hit by 6 damage and overkilling 95% of enemies in 1 hitby 11 damage actually doesn't matter much in the long run, and anything more then 5 attacks is actually wasted except a handful of enemies with enough hp to survive more then 1 round), 1/2 way through SoA can cast spells any use any equipment a fighter can, and slowly move ahead as their damage bonus grows.
Why on gods green earth would I ever make a F/T? Unless I want to backstab exclusively, removing any benefit of increased weapon selection? Playing as a horribly limited class with no utility, and then playing as weak class for a while and ending up overall weaker then I could've been by just picking and leveling straight swashy? That's not even a choice since only an idiot would pick a F/T. By the time you got your thief abilities back, the swashy would almost to UAI and have been getting huge gobs of xp from traps/locks, where as a lower level thief would be getting less.
the Swashy is better....it's easier, it requires no real planning, it brings a valuable utility member, it's a better straight up fighter in the end-game
F/M is slightly different, since it takes longer for the swashy to compete. At the end, is actually worse overall...since you're just a mage, with a permanent semi-tenser's.
Please, explain me how a SB reaches 4apr (8 with IH).
Because unless you plan to wield both Belm AND Kundane (or Scarlet Ninja-To) it's impossible.
And sorry... but the damage output of those 2 weapons, even with the SB damage bonus, can't be compared to what a normal fighter can achieve.
As I said, it's in the end game where they are completely superior. In early SOA, they're only comparable to a fighter, though slowly moving ahead, their massive utility with no downtime easily off-sets the slightly lower damage and you get to those higher lock/trap xp reward amounts faster which means the whole party levels faster. And by lower damage I mean with much less wasted overkill damage. (even a plain thief with high str can chunk most enemies easily in straight melee using a single speed weapon, and while less effective until thac0 capped, can even dual-wield them under IH for similar results to a fighter, minus specialization benefits of course).
A Swashy is a superior fighter thief, that eventually becomes flat out superior to both, and doesn't really require any special planning, slowed development, or downtime to achieve. You just play. And the fact in the end they're superior, accepting downtime in the first place is ridiculous, since you're literally penalizing yourself for less overall benefit.
Technically speaking for a most of SoA a F/T dual would be better, but is grossly inferior once you hit late SoA or ToB since BS becomes useless, and was the only way for a F/T to compete.
Swashy
Max level, swashy with speed weapons, STR irrelevant (both can get to 25), swashy with 2 pips in scimitar and 3 in two-weapon fighting.
Swashy ThAC0 2
kit damage bonus 8
prof bonus ThAC0 1
prof bonus damage 2
scarlet average damage 7.5 (poison excluded as a simple paralyze/death save is allowed)
belm " " 6.5
4 attacks per round, 3x scarlet as main, 1xbelm as off + 4x prof bonus damage+ 4xkit damage bonus
=69 average damage per round with main at ThAC0 -2 and off at ThAC0 1
Plain Fighter
Max level, flail of ages+5 and foebane+5, STR irrelevant, 5 pips each in flails and bastard swords and 3 in two-weapon fighting.
ThAC0 0
prof bonus ThAC0 2
prof bonus damage 4
foa average damage 19.5
foebane " " 14
4 attacks per round, 3x foa as main, 1x foebane as off + 4x prof bonus damage
=88.5 average damage per round with main at ThAC0 -7 and off at ThAC0 -5
As a swashy can't use foa and foebane he has to make do with the next best thing, angurvadal+5 (avg dam 13) and spectral brand+5 (avg dam 13) for his WWA (which has a ThAC0 and damage penalty of 4).
10x13+10x8+10x2-10x4
= 190 average damage per round, but with a ThAC0 penalty of 4
A fighter just uses the same weapons (foa and foebane), but as he's got GWWA, he'll use that instead of WWA.
9x19.5+14+10x4
= 229.5 average damage per round, without any penalties
Additionally, if you'd be using a true grandmastery mod, the difference would be even more pronounced. And if you'd run those calculations against a kensai or a kensai->thief dual (just in case you argue with survivability) the swashy loses, big time.
10th
And we haven't even really considered the fact they have traps (Didn't see a point bringing them up since the swashy has more raw melee damage anyway (40 more damage per round)). Even if you don't buy any of the epic traps (aka, just getting UAI and a crap ton of WWA), they have a boat-load of normal snares that deal a bunch of direct damage, a bunch of damage over time and require a save or DIE and by 40 they've got like...10 per day or so.
I already said a kensai was better because they get the same hit/damage bonuses, except gain it even faster. They're just one-diminsional and lacking utility unless you sacrifice 80% of your class bonus by dualing into a mage.
Play the damn class and then talk. Because you find pretty damn quickly that I'm 100% correct.
As for the dual-class, it loses automatically, because you HAD to dual-class, where as the Swashy just leveled straight. A swashy is already a F/T in a single class, that trades better melee then a fighter in place of BS that they don't need because they no longer suck in straight melee.
Personally I prefer the fighter because they do more damage while not hasted/whirlwinding. I just find it more convenient most of the time. But I agree that the swashy has a higher potential damage output.
Swashbuckler lvl 15 ( with two long swords )
Basic 2 - 16
+ 4 DMG from strength
+ 6 DMG from profession
+ 4 DMG from specialization
That is 16 - 30 dmg PR for Swashbuckler
Fighter lvl 15 ( with two long sword )
Basic 2 - 16
+ 4 DMG from strength
+ 10 DMG from grandmastery
That is 16 - 30 dmg PR for Fighter
BUT fighter have twice as big APR then Swashbuckler
That is 32 - 60 dmg PR for Fighter
So it is 16 - 30 vs 32 - 60 and Swashbuckler is superior to Fighter ? Are you guys crazy ?!
Swashbuckler is actually VERY weak on Thief/Fighter kit.
Edited ( descriptions in my language are VERY confused )
At 15 a swashbuckler using a specialized weapon has the same damage as GM. And it just goes up from there.
All a swashy has to do to compete is dual-wield speed weapons to make up the attack per round deficit. And at epic, once they can start stacking WWA, they don't even have to rely on that anymore for vs tough enemies. The biggest difference comes from the 10 attack cap. While a non-IH fighter can deal more attacks dualing speed weapons, a swashbuckler pulls ahead under IH because they deal enough extra damage to amount to 11 (9 base under IH, for 45 more damage, or roughly 2 more attacks), while a fighter is stuck at 10. And under WWA, the swashy is simply better in raw damage for the same weapons and same number of attacks. You also can't discount magic as it is a part of the single class. It's like saying we're going to compare swash and fighter, but swashy can't use scrolls and fighter's can't have specialization (or loses their extra warrior attacks).
And as I've mentioned about 5 times....they're only superior at epic levels. They're just comparable during most of SoA. But again...as a single class, with a lot of utility, and no downtime, where as a fighter can only hit things and has to go through downtime or deal with high stat requirements to compete at higher levels.
And at epic levels, as a single class, are a no penalty F/M/T with extra melee damage and basically a permanent suit of full plate, that stacks with other armor sources (their AC is actually high enough that the typical "AC is useless" comment actually doesn't apply to them. Even Demogorgon and Ravager can miss about 30% of the time (BEFORE going crazy with AC boosting spells), where as they normally don't ever.
Isn't much better ( and faster ) simply play Kensai and dual to thief on lvl 13 ? You will get "All items to use" before SoA end, you have superior dmg, great bonuses and abilites, you can backstab and also have more thief skills then swashbuckler. If we have something what is that insanely strong, why we need "weak" guys like Swashbuckler ? Someone who is Fighter/thief kit, shoul be little bit stronger and be useful from begining and not on end unbalanced expansion.
BTW, i hate Kensai/thief combination.
Swashbuckler in BG 1 = Vanilla Thief with +ac/hit/damage instead of Backstab, and can specialize and get 3 TWF. Automatically better then a Kensai, who has no advantages in BG1 at all. they hit a little bit harder then a fighter, but also get hit a lot more, and requires haste from some source to truly excel.
Swashbuckler in early to mid SoA = Continues stacking their hit/damage/ac, continues being just as effective as a normal thief, and finally gets the means to counter their APR deficient that was holding them back behind warriors.
Kensai spends 5 levels doing what they normally do (hitting things a little harder then a plain fighter and having no other utility while relying heavily on haste to get them into chunking range) and nothing else. And then gets to become a thief who can't equip armor/bracers/ranged weapons, for almost 1 million experience (not to mention resulting in MUCH less xp from locks/traps then a swashy of equal xp would be getting). And then needs another 10 levels before they can remove those disadvantages. Coincidentally, about the time you get your Kensai bonuses back, enemies are no longer worth the effort of setting up a backstab or are immune (which is why the Kensief is fun on paper and worthless in practice).
Swashbuckler in Late SoA and ToB - Gets access to all items, and unlike the K/T, gets WWA, giving them the freedom to wield whatever weapons they want (FoA) on enemies whom dual-speed weapons under IH would be less effective or useless).
K/T on the other hand, could get 10 attacks under IH using 1 speed weapon, but would sacrifice TWO attacks to their off-hand weapon (and yes, under IH TWO attacks are made with the off-hand, unlike DWing with WWA or GWW which only sacrifices 1 (though you should drop the off-hand for empty or shield before using WWA anyway), which can't harm the big 4). And they'd also have 1 less thac0 and 7 less AC then a swashy would using the exact same buffs/equipment.
So yeah....Swashy is still better. MUCH better. Hence what I'm going with here. They're better at the beginning, better at the end, and comparable in the middle, but without any thought having to go into the process or suffering even 1 level of downtime. Swashy wins. You did say, which is easier? Well...Swashy is...obviously..and it's ultimately stronger to boot.
You'd have to dual at 15 Kensai to compete at the end-game, which utterly throws efficiency out the window by massively decreasing the amount of time you're playing the class you wanted to play before the game ends, while the swashy is already there the moment you finish character creation.
And this coming from someone who loves Kensai....of course I also feel strongly that Kensai are best then left single class, so they can stack their gobs of damage that don't really become truly significant until 18+, with enough charges to Kai to go through entire dungeons without resting when combined with IH.
I get you love swashy, but in melee power fighter is still the undeniable best for 99 percent. Utility wise dual thief loses out on WWA, crit strikes and hardiness, but gains the same semi magic capabilities as swashy as well as thief utilities for 10 minutes as a stronger than normal thief and they don't even need wwa which is in TOB to achieve 10 attacks or last for 1 round with IH which also means they don't need to use "both" belm, kundane or SN which means he can wield FoA 100 percent of the time instead of the 2 bosses a swashy would use it on.
As of this post I am done with the comparisons. If you wish to continue we should do as Dee says and make a thread dedicated to it.
Yeah...unlike a Multi-class that gets HLA based on total xp (once they pass 3 mil), dual's gain HLA as if they were single class at the proper levels. So a dual gains access to HLA slower then a single class will.
Yeah...I'm pretty much done too...I've already counter perfectly every situation, barring extreme duals, which lose by default, but people continue to ignore it, so just repeating the effectively the same thing for another time is largely pointless.
Back to the original point.....they don't need extra attacks from specialization because they're already better. Adding even a single 1/2 attack massively increases the swashy's overall power even further, which they already have WAY too many bonuses (if anything, the swashy needs nerfed).
Will +½ APR really break the Swashbuckler, who is a Fighter/Thief light?
All this assuming of having in hand all of the late game items and late game abilities. What about Joe Swashbuckler? We should have a perspective of Start to Finish.
Another thing is that Swashbuckler does not get, in addition to standard Helmet protection, is an exquisite strength bonus, only a flat 18.
Compare stats too...
Both Warrior and Thief stats would be like so:
18 (96)
18
18
10
10
10
Granting a Swashbuckler exquisite strength would be a nice little bonus, but it wouldn't do well from start to finish in many cases.
Replacing the ability of Specialization in weapons would be best replaced with a Level 9 +½ APR bonus.
Early game...they're mostly a thief. Once they get the Str manual, they can start competing with fighters, due to the latter's lack of attacks (fighters are still better at this point..but utterly lacking in utility). (An early dual F/T will deal more damage, but be completely gimped in BG2, and depends on an engine exploit that I in no way encourage or condone).
Fun fact...unless they nerf the $%#^ out of it between now and then, a Dwarven Defender is immortal in BG2, cause someone didn't have the foresight to look ahead.
You HAVE to consider the whole, and from the WHOLE picture a swashbuckler is already brokenly powerful and needs further nerfs, instead of buffs.
A compromise, as mentioned earlier would be to speed up their rate of benefit gain, but cap it at level 15 and reduce thief skills to 20 per level, everything else staying the same.
That would give them a slightly stronger BG1 presence, and allow them to achieve their full glory very early in BG2, but only be comparable to a F/T dual, instead of completely superior in the end-game, albeit with no downtime at all, and the joy of knowing that you've been playing the class you wanted to play immediately, rather then having to wait for the sequel to experience what was ultimately inferior to what you could've had for less disadvantage.
What about this ?
Fighter thac0 progression using melee weapons
Fighter APR progression ( 1/2 on lvl 7 and 1/2 ond lvl 13 )
+2 AC at creation
+1 melee damage per 4 levels
15 thief points per level. Cannot backstab. No ranged weapons.