Hmmm....that one is kinda of decent....though I'd personally just leave out the +damage and AC and give them their current version of specialization in place of it. Extra attacks are EXTREMELY powerful. Giving that kind of APR progression, I'd gut the kit entirely and just give them fighter thac0, Expertise, no ranged, no BS, 15 skill points, and call it done (they'd be roughly analogous to a Ranger or Paladin in terms of mostly melee with a laughable joke of another classes abilities tacked on, but with a significantly faster leveling rate). (though they'd probably be better off scrapping the thief swashbuckler entirely and add the fighter version, if they're going to go that route. The Thief version isn't supposed to super awesome in straight melee, just better at it then a normal thief, at the cost of slightly weaker thief skills and less proficiency in BS).
A slightly more balanced approach might be.
Fighter thac0 progression with melee weapons Maxed TWF at creation. +1 damage/AC per 3 levels (capped at +5 at 15) Backstab does not progress (2x only) 20 thief points per level (30 points at creation, instead of 40)
That would give them a decently strong early game presence as well as offset their slow proficiency progression, while they slowly transition into more up-front battling as their bonuses stack up (still retaining the ability to make a decent opening shot on most enemies till late SoA and beyond, right around the time they gain UAI and WWA and can shed any pretense of skulduggery, but without being almost useless as a thief (as we've seen from the assassin, 15 points is absolutely crippling for most of the game).
Or add +1 hp per level (capped at 20) and their current form of specialization and lower thief skills to 15 per level to make them more melee and less thief focused.
If you sped up the AC acquisition to every 3 levels it would boost the Swash/class dual classing considerably. Extra AC at earlier levels for dual-ing.
Fighter thac0 progression using melee weapons Fighter APR progression ( 1/2 on lvl 7 and 1/2 ond lvl 13 )
+2 AC at creation +1 melee damage per 4 levels
15 thief points per level. Cannot backstab. No ranged weapons.
No. Fighter APR progression would be too much, as well as Thac0.
+½ APR at level 9, or from Specialization.
The argument is that Specialization is pointless, if it cannot provide the APR.
So I am arguing, add the Specialization APR for all classes (EVEN THOUGH ONLY THE SWASHBUCKLER IS THE ONLY NON-FIGHTER CLASS TO OBTAIN SPECIALIZATION!) or, simply add a ½ APR bonus at Level 9 as a Kit Level Bonus and remove the ability to Specialize Weapon proficiencies.
Or add +1 hp per level (capped at 20) and their current form of specialization and lower thief skills to 15 per level to make them more melee and less thief focused.
This is another thing that reminds me that this is a Fighter / Thief light, because the HP progression is non-Fighter.
@Boaster Specialization APR for all classes = Specialization APR ONLY for SWASHBUCKLER Is much easier siply change kit then whole specialization system. Also, change like that can mess up new kits in future.
BTW is VERY hard modify Swashbuckler. Even simple changes can make him OP or VERY weak. Anyway at least +½ APR is necessity.
I'm sorry if it's not the answer you were looking for. But as CamDawg said earlier, the change being requested here isn't going to be implemented. The externalization makes the modding a lot simpler for this change.
Ok, looks like @CamDawg have hight autority here, then i will ask him.
IF ( that "IF" is crucial ) IF you had to made new Swashbuckler with +½ APR, how it will look ? What else would you change for maintaining a "balance" ?
[ It will helps us to see how you think and then we can ( hopefully ) "see the truth" and end this discussion ]
Nah, just one of the lower rungs on the development ladder.
Swashies don't get the bonus in BG2, so our baseline is that they're going to behave the same way in BGEE. One of the goals is to try and keep as close to the originals as possible, unless we have a good reason to change, i.e. bug fix, content restoration, better storytelling, etc. Like @Dee mentioned, y'all are welcome to continue discussion but frankly I don't see any of those goals fulfilled with such a change.
You're definitely asking the wrong person--I'm one of the guys who thinks that balance is a wasted effort since 2e itself isn't balanced and this isn't a PVP game. If I thought Swashies should get that extra APR, I'd simply enable it without taking anything away.
We've definitely got a diversity of opinions on the team, though. That's just my two cents.
Meh, I'm of the camp that if you allow swashy to keep specialization, remove the kit entirely and add the fighter version of swashbuckler.
Capped at specialization (like all fighter kits are supposed to be).
-2 base AC and an additional +1 ac for every 2 intelligence over 10 and +2 movement speed.
Cannot wear armor with a base AC better then 6 or their AC, defensive fighting, and movement bonuses are disabled.
Cannot use any shield greater then a buckler.
Requires 9 str, 13 dex, 13 int as minimum stats.
+4 reaction modifier to those of the opposite sex. -4 reaction mod for same sex.
Improved Defensive Fighting - Roots the swashbuckler in place and reduces their APR to 1. Grants a +1 AC bonus per level to a maximum of 10. Automatically makes a free attack against any attacker that attempts to strike them in melee that missed with a +4 bonus to hit. Total of 1 free attack per point of dexterity adjustment per round.
Yeah...2nd edition has some built-in imbalances, but BG takes those imbalances, removes what few mitigating factors there were, and says run with it!.
@Edvin Word for word from 2nd Edition complete fighter. (aside from the buffed Defensive fighting (gains AC 2x as fast, can still make 1 normal attack, and more free attacks), which I added to compensate for other bonuses they were supposed to have but can't be implemented due to missing the proper frameworks).
Also, contrary to the blatant lies of NWN, parry for 2nd edition DnD is on page 204 of the player hand book (Last paragraph before the section talking in depth about saving throws). Requires them to do nothing but defend (they can't even move or attack normally) and grants an AC bonus equal to half their level (maximum 10), and once per round, can attempt to immediately strike back at an opponent who attacked and missed them in melee with a +4 hit bonus. And this is a basic combat technique ANY class can benefit from, if BG allowed all the normal combat maneuvers we should be able to do.
Why is it so important to get that extra 1/2 apr? Swashies fare pretty well against other classes and kits, as previously pointed out in this thread. If you really want more apr then dual wield, you get 2 apr. Use haste and you are at 3 apr.
Still ambiguous, but I will have to assume that you mean from Specialization, as per the original argument provided for this thread.
What else would it mean?
If a compelling argument was put forth for it, I would give swashbucklers the extra APR normally granted only to warrior classes for weapon specialization without changing anything else.
No such argument has been spotted yet, and none seem to be forthcoming.
If a compelling argument was put forth for it, I would give swashbucklers the extra APR normally granted only to warrior classes for weapon specialization without changing anything else.
No such argument has been spotted yet, and none seem to be forthcoming.
@Boaster you must help me here ! My English is not good enough so it is very difficult for me to made such an argument.
1) Swashbucklers is only one who can have 2 stars in weapon specialization and dont have +½ APR. 2) According to some rules only pure fighter should have that +½ APR. ( Actualy, this "rules" say MUCH more about all classes and most off that things is unrealizable ) 3) Rangers and Paladins have +½ APR. 4) Removing +½ APR from Rangers and Paladins will be HUGE change for whole gameplay. 5) Swashbuckler without that +½ APR is very disadvantaged in whole BG1. 6) Sure, Swashbuckler with +½ APR around lvl 25+ will be strong, but in game are MUCH stronger classes and be strong damager is purpose for combat thief kit. 7) We already lost ours backstabing and ranged weapons, can´t we just get that one simple thing and be good damagers ?
The swashbuckler's thieving skills haven't been impaired at all, unless you're counting the lack of backstab multiplier.
Yes.
Consider the following... ...the lack of Backstab, ...unlike a Fighter, the Swash has less HP dice per level, ...no (natural) helmet (excluding stones), ...no exquisite strength, ...cannot wear heavy armors, but this is made up by the fact of the AC bonuses from level.
Even to get the APR from specialization, I would accept spacing out the damage bonus from level.
A Thief who is supposed to be more fighter-like, certainly lacks in this respect.
Additionally, what about mages/clerics who cast spells that create a weapon and become proficient beyond one star??? Another reason to consider the change.
Additionally, what about mages/clerics who cast spells that create a weapon and become proficient beyond one star??? Another reason to consider the change.
Wow, i completely forgot on that ! Great job Boaster !
Comments
A slightly more balanced approach might be.
Fighter thac0 progression with melee weapons
Maxed TWF at creation.
+1 damage/AC per 3 levels (capped at +5 at 15)
Backstab does not progress (2x only)
20 thief points per level (30 points at creation, instead of 40)
That would give them a decently strong early game presence as well as offset their slow proficiency progression, while they slowly transition into more up-front battling as their bonuses stack up (still retaining the ability to make a decent opening shot on most enemies till late SoA and beyond, right around the time they gain UAI and WWA and can shed any pretense of skulduggery, but without being almost useless as a thief (as we've seen from the assassin, 15 points is absolutely crippling for most of the game).
Or add +1 hp per level (capped at 20) and their current form of specialization and lower thief skills to 15 per level to make them more melee and less thief focused.
+½ APR at level 9, or from Specialization.
The argument is that Specialization is pointless, if it cannot provide the APR.
So I am arguing, add the Specialization APR for all classes (EVEN THOUGH ONLY THE SWASHBUCKLER IS THE ONLY NON-FIGHTER CLASS TO OBTAIN SPECIALIZATION!) or, simply add a ½ APR bonus at Level 9 as a Kit Level Bonus and remove the ability to Specialize Weapon proficiencies.
Specialization APR for all classes = Specialization APR ONLY for SWASHBUCKLER
Is much easier siply change kit then whole specialization system.
Also, change like that can mess up new kits in future.
BTW is VERY hard modify Swashbuckler.
Even simple changes can make him OP or VERY weak.
Anyway at least +½ APR is necessity.
We dont starts topics in FR for mods ( BTW mod +½ APR for Swashbuckler allready exist ).
Ok, looks like @CamDawg have hight autority here, then i will ask him.
IF ( that "IF" is crucial ) IF you had to made new Swashbuckler with +½ APR, how it will look ?
What else would you change for maintaining a "balance" ?
[ It will helps us to see how you think and then we can ( hopefully ) "see the truth" and end this discussion ]
Swashies don't get the bonus in BG2, so our baseline is that they're going to behave the same way in BGEE. One of the goals is to try and keep as close to the originals as possible, unless we have a good reason to change, i.e. bug fix, content restoration, better storytelling, etc. Like @Dee mentioned, y'all are welcome to continue discussion but frankly I don't see any of those goals fulfilled with such a change.
Thank you for quick reply.
Can you at least tentative suggest new Swashbuckler with +½ APR ?
Just for fun. Don´t even think about it too much
I want see what for developers means "balanced".
We've definitely got a diversity of opinions on the team, though. That's just my two cents.
Capped at specialization (like all fighter kits are supposed to be).
-2 base AC and an additional +1 ac for every 2 intelligence over 10 and +2 movement speed.
Cannot wear armor with a base AC better then 6 or their AC, defensive fighting, and movement bonuses are disabled.
Cannot use any shield greater then a buckler.
Requires 9 str, 13 dex, 13 int as minimum stats.
+4 reaction modifier to those of the opposite sex. -4 reaction mod for same sex.
Improved Defensive Fighting - Roots the swashbuckler in place and reduces their APR to 1. Grants a +1 AC bonus per level to a maximum of 10. Automatically makes a free attack against any attacker that attempts to strike them in melee that missed with a +4 bonus to hit. Total of 1 free attack per point of dexterity adjustment per round.
Yeah...2nd edition has some built-in imbalances, but BG takes those imbalances, removes what few mitigating factors there were, and says run with it!.
That is bad combination Duelist from NWN2 and Blade from BG2
BTW parry skill was created by NWN and is not a feature of DnD.
Word for word from 2nd Edition complete fighter. (aside from the buffed Defensive fighting (gains AC 2x as fast, can still make 1 normal attack, and more free attacks), which I added to compensate for other bonuses they were supposed to have but can't be implemented due to missing the proper frameworks).
Also, contrary to the blatant lies of NWN, parry for 2nd edition DnD is on page 204 of the player hand book (Last paragraph before the section talking in depth about saving throws). Requires them to do nothing but defend (they can't even move or attack normally) and grants an AC bonus equal to half their level (maximum 10), and once per round, can attempt to immediately strike back at an opponent who attacked and missed them in melee with a +4 hit bonus. And this is a basic combat technique ANY class can benefit from, if BG allowed all the normal combat maneuvers we should be able to do.
Does that mean your idea would be the exact same Swashbuckler with the +½ APR from Specialization, or... something different?
If a compelling argument was put forth for it, I would give swashbucklers the extra APR normally granted only to warrior classes for weapon specialization without changing anything else.
No such argument has been spotted yet, and none seem to be forthcoming.
My English is not good enough so it is very difficult for me to made such an argument.
Ok, lets summarize it.
This is all what i have:
1) Swashbucklers is only one who can have 2 stars in weapon specialization and dont have +½ APR.
2) According to some rules only pure fighter should have that +½ APR. ( Actualy, this "rules" say MUCH more about all classes and most off that things is unrealizable )
3) Rangers and Paladins have +½ APR.
4) Removing +½ APR from Rangers and Paladins will be HUGE change for whole gameplay.
5) Swashbuckler without that +½ APR is very disadvantaged in whole BG1.
6) Sure, Swashbuckler with +½ APR around lvl 25+ will be strong, but in game are MUCH stronger classes and be strong damager is purpose for combat thief kit.
7) We already lost ours backstabing and ranged weapons, can´t we just get that one simple thing and be good damagers ?
My bad ( I mistook it whith assassin ) thank you.
Consider the following...
...the lack of Backstab,
...unlike a Fighter, the Swash has less HP dice per level,
...no (natural) helmet (excluding stones),
...no exquisite strength,
...cannot wear heavy armors, but this is made up by the fact of the AC bonuses from level.
Even to get the APR from specialization, I would accept spacing out the damage bonus from level.
A Thief who is supposed to be more fighter-like, certainly lacks in this respect.
Additionally, what about mages/clerics who cast spells that create a weapon and become proficient beyond one star??? Another reason to consider the change.
Great job Boaster !