I think Dee already said this in another thread, but people seem to get angry when they say something, and then people get angry when they don't say anything. Honestly, why give out information if most of the people are going to get angry when it doesn't reach their expectations? At times this feels like the Diablo 3 forums.
Honestly, I can wait for the patch and BG2EE, because I feel that they'll be great, obviously that isn't so for some others.
because if you're hired to do a work, if you're paid for a product, you deliver it. If information is part of this product, you deliver it. They should the why give information is answered with 2 single words:
"business ethic".
That being stated, i don't doubt their ethics neither does i imply that Beamdog is being dishonest. Just wanted to answer the question "why give out information".
Yeah, game development funding doesn't work that way. Buying a copy of BG:EE or BG2:EE is not funding BG3. BG3 is not being developed at the moment, and even if it were, its funding would be separate from the two enhanced editions. Don't forget that OG is working with publishers, they're not independent - and they do have to pay their royalties. They will not fund their future games from a stockpile made from current sales. That's just not feasible.
A small company like BeamDog cannot develop a game without capital. Selling games earns them capital. I am sure that is Economics 101, but I am not an Economics major.
Why? Because if everyone pre-orders, they're going to stop trying to polish the game before the release date. They can get the sales of BG:EE and get a rough estimate of how well BG2:EE is going to sell. If everyone pre-orders and that mark is reached, why would the developer team have any incentive to work harder for a better game if everyone already bought it anyway?
Sure, you could argue that people could return it if it's rubbish...but it's not going to happen because, a) most people won't return since it's a hassle, b) a lot of the people will just regard the game as not a good value and just 'forgive' it and c) some people don't even know if returning is possible
It's like giving a man to $500,000 to build your house, and telling him, don't worry, no matter what the house ends up looking like, you have earned your $500,000. Here you go. Do you think the guy will build you a better looking house than he would have if you didn't give him the money from the beginning? I sure as hell think that if you told him "I will give you up to $500,000, but only if the house looks pretty damn nice" will give him incentive to make a better-looking house
You guys end up actually hurting the Baldurs Gate games by not giving incentives to the developers to work harder to polish it.
Oh, and btw, you don't even get a discount for pre-ordering. What reason could you possibly have by pre-ordering? The badge? lollll Loyalty and dedication as a fan? Sorry, I'm a fan of the Baldur Gate games above everything else.
It's like giving a man to $500,000 to build your house, and telling him, don't worry, no matter what the house ends up looking like, you have earned your $500,000. Here you go.
Well, the key difference here is that you're comparing $500,000 to $25. I am pretty sure most/all of us here spend more than that kind of money at a bar in a single evening. Heck, if I had $500,000 I wouldn't be working where I do now as a software engineer, I'd start my own company and develop software for myself. Can't do that on $25.
You must really think poorly of us if you think that we would stop trying to make these games the best that they can possibly be just because a few people have already purchased them.
@ghostowl Except people DO pay upfront for someone to build a house. And if more people preorder BG2 then beamdog have more resources (ie money) for a polished product.
You must really think poorly of us if you think that we would stop trying to make these games the best that they can possibly be just because a few people have already purchased them.
No, I don't think poorly of you guys at all. There's a professional level of change that can be seen in BG:EE that casual modders just cannot do.
However, I honestly think that financial incentive is a good drive for a better polished game. We all want a better game; we all expect you guys will do a good job. But if you guys knew that it would be even more rewarding for an even better game, wouldn't it be enough motivation to at least some of the staff?
I'd say it's rather the reverse; the more people we know are going to be playing on release day, the more driven we are to make sure that experience is a positive one for all the people who are counting on us.
I'd say it's rather the reverse; the more people we know are going to be playing on release day, the more driven we are to make sure that experience is a positive one for all the people who are counting on us.
Unless Beamdog/Overhaul is banking on making so much money off of BG2:EE pre-orders that they can all retire, I think they might want to sell more games in the future. Which will be a lot harder if they adopt a 'take the money and run' approach with BG2:EE.
A small company like BeamDog cannot develop a game without capital. Selling games earns them capital. I am sure that is Economics 101, but I am not an Economics major.
The capital comes from the publisher, though. In the case of BG:EE and BG2:EE, it comes from Atari. If Beamdog will ever start working on a BG3 in earnest, they will have to find a publisher to fund the development, or they will have to find some other funding method (e.g. Kickstarter or similar).
Do you think the guy will build you a better looking house than he would have if you didn't give him the money from the beginning? I sure as hell think that if you told him "I will give you up to $500,000, but only if the house looks pretty damn nice" will give him incentive to make a better-looking house.
Foreword: this is going to go off topic (I'm sorry Dee, I tried, I swear, but six lines just wouldn't cut it), but let's have a go anyway. I'll put most of my post in spoiler tags so as not to derail the thread with too much rambling.
Most builders I know want money up front, usually more as a deposit (like a pre-order, in this case) - anything from €20,000 to €50,000, which covers the wages and materials for approximately quarter of the job. Saying "you'll get up to [x amount], but only if..." is a sure-fire way of having builders refuse to take the job. "Up to" anything is always a bad bet, as well as "but only if." Unless you said something along the lines of, "Over eight months, I guarantee four payments of 75,000 on a bi-monthly basis, which is 300,000 in total to cover your costs, with anything up to an addition 150,000 bonus if the house meets my expectations," or any other combination which guarantees a set quantity, and a bonus if it meets your standards (finding out the cost of building materials is not difficult, and add a bare minimum wage over X length of time, then you can work out what the 'bonus' incentive is).
With "up to, but only if," you could end up giving the builder $75,000 (possibly the cost of the building materials) at the end of the job, and not a dollar more. It has happened a few times in the country I live in, which is why they want payments up front. It's not an incentive to do the best they can, as they may end up getting ripped off. They are more likely to cut corners and hide shoddy work.
The act of paying up front for something is very much akin to pre-ordering in this sense.
Conversely, handing a builder 500,000 in a lump sum at the start of the project is more likely to make them cut corners if they think they can save money; they can actually keep more of the money for themselves rather than spending it on building materials. If you were expecting them to use particular materials, then you really need to stand and watch as they build to ensure they are building with the materials you want.
This is simply not feasible with a 'mass market' product such as a video game. If a company expected to sell 100,000 units of a particular item, then they couldn't possible have that many people in their building watching, and that's without all the legal obligation that would go hand in hand.
However, with the amount of research that you would end up doing regarding the hardcore, foundation concrete mixes, reinforcing bar, membrane, types and sizes of blocks, the quantity, the mixtures of sand and cement for the walls, the window sills and lintels, the correct size and spacing of roofing timbers, ridge, wall plate, and rafters, the felt and laths, and which the previous three listed items rely on, the roofing material, be that profiled roof sheeting, slates, or tiles, as well as wall and/or attic insulation, fascia and soffit, you would be just as well off building the house yourself and saving the additional $200,000-300,000+. In fact, I startedbuildinga garagesome time back due to said research. I'm a programmer, before that I knew nothing about building. Being something of a perfectionist in that regard, and being my first building project, everything I'm doing is being done to what I consider my highest standard.
I'm not sure a 'builder' analogy really works well in your argument; as well as it likely being country and project specific, it works more in favour of pre-ordering. In this instance, pre-ordering is a deposit for the game, 'what you see it what you get,' the incentive for them to do better would be if you say you'll buy more than one copy of the game once it has been released and it meets your expectations - that would be the 'bonus.' At least, that's with using the builder analogy.
Analogies aside, there is no incentive to pre-order the game as I pointed. You don't get a discount or get to play the game early and it is a digital copy. It is smarter to hold money back until reviews have been done on the game. There is no argument that favors pre-ordering that would hold any weight.
Analogies aside, there is no incentive to pre-order the game as I pointed. You don't get a discount or get to play the game early and it is a digital copy. It is smarter to hold money back until reviews have been done on the game. There is no argument that favors pre-ordering that would hold any weight.
I pre-ordered because I've already decided I will purchase and support the game, if it comes out a bit bumpy from the release date then I will wear that (although I personally have faith in the devs that it will be executed smoothly enough.)
If the money that I spend helps the project then I'm happy to pay up front, I think its a fair amount for a game I plan to spend a lot of time playing, I don't need an argument or incentive to support an enhanced game that I am passionate about.
@Sandman I think most of the people who preordered did so to support OverHaul's effort to re-vitalize the franchise; and to me this argument holds all the weight the $24.95 required.
I love BG. I love BG2. I also love BG:EE, which is currently AS IS totally worth the extra money for the compatibility and local MP utility. I had to force-update my drivers, but it was a doddle, and now works like a dream. I preordered B2:EE because I loved the original, and the idea of new content, professionally done, is a dream come true.
I preordered because I believe the team loves the game AT LEAST as much as I do... so money now is better than money later, because they'll put heart and soul into it whichever it is, just like I would.
I think I am going to make a macro, so whenever people complain about things that aren't done yet, I can just have it autopost:
You shouldn't be mad at Overhaul, you should be mad at Atari, as they held up all development for ~three months.
so wait, because of Atari, you're going to assume they couldn't have worked on any of the stuff during the 3 months?
Well, Dee already responded, but yeah. They said as much shortly after the issue came up. For the first few days, I believe, they kept working (could be wrong here), but when it started to look like it wouldn't be a quick fix, they moved almost everyone on to other projects.
I think everyone here loves the game and series or else we wouldn't be here. Same goes for supporting the people making the game, couldn't you do the same at the time it is released or soon after? They are gonna work on the game whether you pony up the money for a pre-order or not. Again neither of these excuses really amount to anything as a reason to pre-order.
I didn't have any problem with BG:EE. Download was a little slow, but that's always the case with any game on release. Any time I am buying an MMO or a game I have to download, I pretty much assume the first day, maybe even two, I won't be able to play it.
... for supporting the people making the game, couldn't you do the same at the time it is released or soon after? They are gonna work on the game whether you pony up the money for a pre-order or not.
I pre-ordered because I knew I was going to buy it and I figured I'd do it sooner rather than later. BG II:EE is what I've been interested in ever since this project got announced.
Same goes for supporting the people making the game, couldn't you do the same at the time it is released or soon after? They are gonna work on the game whether you pony up the money for a pre-order or not.
To me, there's little to no difference between paying $24.95 now or paying $24.95 in a couple of months.
To a company who has monthly expenses to pay, there's a huge difference between getting in advance a cash flow of ($24.95 times the number of people who preordered) or not getting it, or getting it in a couple of months.
I didn't have any problem with BG:EE. Download was a little slow, but that's always the case with any game on release. Any time I am buying an MMO or a game I have to download, I pretty much assume the first day, maybe even two, I won't be able to play it.
This was my experience too in a nutshell. Nothing to get upset and make threats over.
I would pay more if I could. I want to support this developer. I will do whatever I can to do that. I have encouraged others to buy the game, i'll chip in with beta testing, I pre-order as soon as I can, and I share positive comments and criticism. It sounds like we have some very jaded views about businesses and corporations, which may or may not be justified, but I hope that my contribution helps overhaul continue their work on BG and future projects!
I would pay more if I could. I want to support this developer. I will do whatever I can to do that. I have encouraged others to buy the game, i'll chip in with beta testing, I pre-order as soon as I can, and I share positive comments and criticism. It sounds like we have some very jaded views about businesses and corporations, which may or may not be justified, but I hope that my contribution helps overhaul continue their work on BG and future projects!
Buy it twice and give the second copy to someone else. Problem solved!
Comments
"business ethic".
That being stated, i don't doubt their ethics neither does i imply that Beamdog is being dishonest. Just wanted to answer the question "why give out information".
Why? Because if everyone pre-orders, they're going to stop trying to polish the game before the release date. They can get the sales of BG:EE and get a rough estimate of how well BG2:EE is going to sell. If everyone pre-orders and that mark is reached, why would the developer team have any incentive to work harder for a better game if everyone already bought it anyway?
Sure, you could argue that people could return it if it's rubbish...but it's not going to happen because, a) most people won't return since it's a hassle, b) a lot of the people will just regard the game as not a good value and just 'forgive' it and c) some people don't even know if returning is possible
It's like giving a man to $500,000 to build your house, and telling him, don't worry, no matter what the house ends up looking like, you have earned your $500,000. Here you go. Do you think the guy will build you a better looking house than he would have if you didn't give him the money from the beginning? I sure as hell think that if you told him "I will give you up to $500,000, but only if the house looks pretty damn nice" will give him incentive to make a better-looking house
You guys end up actually hurting the Baldurs Gate games by not giving incentives to the developers to work harder to polish it.
Oh, and btw, you don't even get a discount for pre-ordering. What reason could you possibly have by pre-ordering? The badge? lollll Loyalty and dedication as a fan? Sorry, I'm a fan of the Baldur Gate games above everything else.
Except people DO pay upfront for someone to build a house.
And if more people preorder BG2 then beamdog have more resources (ie money) for a polished product.
However, I honestly think that financial incentive is a good drive for a better polished game. We all want a better game; we all expect you guys will do a good job. But if you guys knew that it would be even more rewarding for an even better game, wouldn't it be enough motivation to at least some of the staff?
Foreword: this is going to go off topic (I'm sorry Dee, I tried, I swear, but six lines just wouldn't cut it), but let's have a go anyway. I'll put most of my post in spoiler tags so as not to derail the thread with too much rambling.
With "up to, but only if," you could end up giving the builder $75,000 (possibly the cost of the building materials) at the end of the job, and not a dollar more. It has happened a few times in the country I live in, which is why they want payments up front. It's not an incentive to do the best they can, as they may end up getting ripped off. They are more likely to cut corners and hide shoddy work.
The act of paying up front for something is very much akin to pre-ordering in this sense.
Conversely, handing a builder 500,000 in a lump sum at the start of the project is more likely to make them cut corners if they think they can save money; they can actually keep more of the money for themselves rather than spending it on building materials. If you were expecting them to use particular materials, then you really need to stand and watch as they build to ensure they are building with the materials you want.
This is simply not feasible with a 'mass market' product such as a video game. If a company expected to sell 100,000 units of a particular item, then they couldn't possible have that many people in their building watching, and that's without all the legal obligation that would go hand in hand.
However, with the amount of research that you would end up doing regarding the hardcore, foundation concrete mixes, reinforcing bar, membrane, types and sizes of blocks, the quantity, the mixtures of sand and cement for the walls, the window sills and lintels, the correct size and spacing of roofing timbers, ridge, wall plate, and rafters, the felt and laths, and which the previous three listed items rely on, the roofing material, be that profiled roof sheeting, slates, or tiles, as well as wall and/or attic insulation, fascia and soffit, you would be just as well off building the house yourself and saving the additional $200,000-300,000+. In fact, I started building a garage some time back due to said research. I'm a programmer, before that I knew nothing about building. Being something of a perfectionist in that regard, and being my first building project, everything I'm doing is being done to what I consider my highest standard.
I'm not sure a 'builder' analogy really works well in your argument; as well as it likely being country and project specific, it works more in favour of pre-ordering. In this instance, pre-ordering is a deposit for the game, 'what you see it what you get,' the incentive for them to do better would be if you say you'll buy more than one copy of the game once it has been released and it meets your expectations - that would be the 'bonus.' At least, that's with using the builder analogy.
If the money that I spend helps the project then I'm happy to pay up front, I think its a fair amount for a game I plan to spend a lot of time playing, I don't need an argument or incentive to support an enhanced game that I am passionate about.
I preordered because I believe the team loves the game AT LEAST as much as I do... so money now is better than money later, because they'll put heart and soul into it whichever it is, just like I would.
'Nuff said.
I pre-ordered the first one, too, and waited through the debacle of the release, the bugs, and I got something I'm happy with.
To a company who has monthly expenses to pay, there's a huge difference between getting in advance a cash flow of ($24.95 times the number of people who preordered) or not getting it, or getting it in a couple of months.