To those saying that adding content is expected to desired. I say would you want someone adding content to your favourite movie or book for no other reason than to add more content? Adding content to a game from another developer is never ok. IF you have the license you make your own. Don't alter the original content. That's disrespectful, and VERY arrogant.
I've played both Pits and they're both pointless and utterly redundant. Being diametrically opposed to the direction and focus of the core game that add nothing of value, and are at best a competent distraction. I despise them. They feel like additional content for the sake of saying "look we added more stuff." Just awful.
Well, you got your wish. They didn't alter the original content. In fact, they put so much effort into not altering original content that it almost necessitated that Black Pits not be connected and much different from the original game.
To those saying that adding content is expected to desired. I say would you want someone adding content to your favourite movie or book for no other reason than to add more content?
I don't know, the enhanced versions of Star Wars: Episodes 4-6 were pretty cool.
To those saying that adding content is expected to desired. I say would you want someone adding content to your favourite movie or book for no other reason than to add more content?
I don't know, the enhanced versions of Star Wars: Episodes 4-6 were pretty cool.
I won't go into huge detail, because it all comes down to personal opinion and preferences, but I think the EEs are awesome. I like the subtle but useful improvements to the GUI (things like detailed breakdown of AC and THAC0 are particularly useful to people who aren't familiar with 2nd edition rules). I like the new quests and areas, and am personally in favor of linking them to the new NPCs (it makes it feel like those areas are personal and important for those characters, instead of Nalia being willing to just hang back outside while you clean out her home). I like the new kit options, and it's nice that you get the same kit options in both games (whereas in vanilla, you had fewer options in BG1 than in BG2). I enjoyed the Black Pits in both EEs; although I doubt I'd play them more than two or three times each, they were still fun for me.
As I said, that all comes down to opinion. One thing I do want to mention is the level of (nearly real-time) support these games are getting. I can't think of any other game I've ever played where I had the same access to the makers...not just community reps, or forum police, but the actual people coding the game. I see posts from team members late at night, on weekends, etc., trying to help people who have encountered bugs and providing workarounds if possible. I have a lot of respect for these folks and the effort they're making.
Last but not least, a LOT of people are overlooking the fact that not everybody was playing the vanilla games with mods. For some people, the idea of needing to install several mods and a fixpack before the game is 'functional' is enough to make them not play it at all. My first time through BG2, I had no idea such a thing as a 'mod' existed. Having so many fixes, tweaks and additional features incorporated into the EEs is a significant benefit for many players, myself included.
To those saying that adding content is expected to desired. I say would you want someone adding content to your favourite movie or book for no other reason than to add more content?
I don't know, the enhanced versions of Star Wars: Episodes 4-6 were pretty cool.
2 issues with this
1: The reissues were appalling, and overall made the movies worse as a result. 2: At least it was the actual creator revisiting his own work and "updating" it. Although his additions to Empire and Jedi kind of fall in to the same issue, as he did not direct them, but he was a producer and has a level of creative input/control.
Also anyone using the "Overhaul" are ex BG devs. That is stretching things more than a little. The actual members who has creative control over the games is VERY minimal, and practically non existent for BGII. So no that point is utterly wrong.
- New NPCs are ok, but add no value and certainly dont improve the game in any way.
Dorn is one of the most powerful NPCs in the game, and a staple of any evil party. I don't see how someone like that "adds no value" to the game.
Opinions on the other 2 NPCs have been mixed, but even that's better than the consensus views of a lot of vanilla NPCs. A lot of people also enjoy Neera for her unpredictability, which adds a new element to the game.
A note on updating sprites: it has been explained numerous times on these forums - by the devs themselves - why creating new sprites would have been unfeasible (no, it is not as simple as "sharpening" existing sprites).
I think a lot of people make some big assumptions about the size of Beamdog as a company, the person-power available, and the scope of changes/additions allowed by the contract. Despite being limited in size and resources, Beamdog has managed to create a product that has reinvigorated interest in my favorite game of all time. That alone would be worth 25 bucks to me, but I've gotten to enjoy new characters, quests, kits, and improvements on top of that.
As for those who would have liked to see content added independent of the new NPCs, there's a new adventurey (to steal a phrase) DLC being developed right now that might just appeal to you. I would warn against coming to judgement on the EE too quickly, because it looks like there are more enhancements yet to come.
I am perfectly aware of what the limitations were, and there is no excuse for not actually providing new hi rez sprites for the game. not only a missed opportunity, but an abject failure.
Not having to switch discs every time you move areas is enough of an enhancement on my late 90s experience of the game... More portraits would be cool though.
Not having to switch discs every time you move areas is enough of an enhancement on my late 90s experience of the game... More portraits would be cool though.
Then pay less than half the asking price of this and buy the GOG version thats been available for years.
I am perfectly aware of what the limitations were, and there is no excuse for not actually providing new hi rez sprites for the game. not only a missed opportunity, but an abject failure.
Well, if you know what the limitations are, perhaps you could tell us. For something to have been a failure, it must be something that COULD have been done well, and wasn't. I freely admit that I have no idea what would have been involved, other than the limitations placed on the team regarding altering existing content, which have been mentioned many times. What kind of work would be involved in such a graphics overhaul? How many hours would that work have taken? What kind of resources did the team have to accomplish these things? What would it have taken away from the game we DID get to put these in (contract limitations being set aside).
I am perfectly aware of what the limitations were, and there is no excuse for not actually providing new hi rez sprites for the game. not only a missed opportunity, but an abject failure.
Obviously you are not "perfectly aware" of why new hi rez sprites could not be developed. If you haven't read the countless threads pertaining to them, I'll give you the tl:dr version:
It came down to finances and economics.
If you wish to continue arguing this, please read every thread that has already touched on this issue and explain how it could of been feasible, without resorting to the "just do it now" argument like the one I have quoted above.
Second, new content:
It is ironic that someone that argues new content shouldn't be added by a professional development team would still sing the praises of mods that improves the functionality of the old game.
The new content is added in such a way that it can be easily ignored (except for Neera's, and Dorn's first encounter) that the classic game still shines through if you wish to ignore it. However, with the popularity of all the NPCs mods the original trilogy had, the developers decided adding professionally done NPCs would appease more in the market for this type of game.
If you want an original telling of the game, play the original.
- The Black Pits are insulting. Vapid pointless garbage that was nothing but a waste of time, money, and effort. their inclusion is an embarrassment, and not worthy of anyone's time (either developer or player). The time wasted on these pieces of dross would be better spent on enhancing, bug fixing, and polishing the core game.
Black Pits, especially the second part, are super awesome. I love all characters from TBP2. I would pay for it even if it would be DLC.
I think it's safe to say that the guy is just pulling out opinions honestly. He should go to gamefaqs, the other hard-core "OG BG2 guys" would welcome him and his EE hate.
To be honest, to non-english native players, BG:EE / BG2:EE feel more like a "Baldur's Gate : Modded Edition" rather than an Enhanced Edition.
We've lost our original dubbing (Yep, those voices we loved to hear while playing) unless... well, we get to play with a bastardized local/english version (Or an edition where every single new voiced line has been muted)
All of that gives a feeling of modded content that doesn't match with the quality of the original game.
I still support BG:EE and Beamdog (I did preorder twice, and I'm defending their product on the biggest french forum in the VideoGame section - i'm the one that did the "Baldur's Gate" thread there ...) , but those are rather problematic, and that dubbing (Along the inclusion of the vanilla translated sound files) should have been made a long, long, long time ago for BG:EE and should DEFINATELY be made for BG2:EE. Not for the black pits (Honestly, I don't care : It's side content) but the base game HAS to be dubbed correctly.
What I hate about the new editions : - The new content stands out. Not due to its quality, but due to the fact that it's not well integrated (BG:EE weapons using regular items bams ? ALL of the new content beeing tied to the new characters ? - there's NOT A SINGLE QUEST that has been added without the need of having one of these new NPCs in the group...) - There was a lot of wasted opportunities regarding content integration (Dorn meeting Gromnir, come on, can't you do better than that ? Hexxat/Bodhy, PC Monk + Rasaad Monastery could have been a great stronghold...)
What I love about the new editions : - Nice additional features - Bug corrections - Improved interface - Game is evolving once again, and hardcoded shenanigans have been slightly improved.
And? This is nothing new, and attempting to suggest otherwise is a flawed argument given that the EEs are in no way special in this regard compared to the rest of the industry. I don't ignore the bug lists. I've reported a few of my own at various times. But, I also understand that the list is no more than the average game with Baldur's Gate's complexity. Elder Scrolls games and Fallout games (both Bethesda and Black Isle) still have bugs and oversights that require third-party mods to fix even after full development cycles of patches. Team Fortress 2, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Borderlands 2, Battlefield 4, every game I currently play removes and introduces new bugs with every patch. That's how fixes work, how that have always worked, and how they will ALWAYS work.
You need to consider that the EE's have special expectations to fulfill, precisely because they are enhanced editions. When your enhanced game (BG2:EE) has more apparent glitches than the game that you're enhancing (modded BG2), it does not exactly shine a good light on your product.
What I love about the new editions : - Bug corrections
While I'm sure the team is doing his best to fix the bugs, there are still too many of them for me to love the current state of the EE.
I will of course reevaluate my judgement as the situation evolves.
Most of these bugs concern new content. Old content is relatively bug-free Edit.: Heh, makes it funny : If you want to enjoy your BG2:EE playthrough, just play with vanilla content and you'll be fine until next patch.
You need to consider that the EE's have special expectations to fulfill, precisely because they are enhanced editions. When your enhanced game (BG2:EE) has more apparent glitches than the game that you're enhancing (modded BG2), it does not exactly shine a good light on your product.
I believe it is erroneous to compare BG EE and BG 2 EE to your favourite modded versions of the originals. Any new player like me will have no idea about which mods to install, which are compatible with each other, and most of us do not have the patience to read about all the hundreds of mods and NPC projects out there to find the one or two we'd like. Some of us probably don't even have the technical ability/patience to implement mods in any case.
Thus BG EE and BG 2EE must be compared with BG 1 Vanilla and BG 2 Vanilla. In this context, they are cleared Enchanced. I make that assertion based on comparison of the GoG versions of the Vanilla and the EE version from Beamdog, the two most convenient versions of the product for a new player.
Yes I wish BG 2EE was released with less bugs, but Beamdog are the most responsive and communicative games devs I've ever come across. I am sure it will be a matter of time before BG 2EE will be as reliable as BG EE, where I completed an entire completionist playthrough with only one noticeable bug (the Firebead quest in Candlekeep.)
Most of these bugs concern new content. Old content is relatively bug-free
While I agree that the new content is more affected by bugs, the number of bugs involving the old content is much higher than in the original games (if properly modded with fix packs, etc.).
Most of the bugs are side effects of improvements of the engine or other changes, but they may still ruin more or less the game experience.
Besides, it's not just a matter of number. The residual bugs of the original modded games are very mild in nature, instead some of the new bugs of the EE are very nasty.
However, now I'm digressing. Even if we don't agree on this, I liked the rest of your post
I believe it is erroneous to compare BG EE and BG 2 EE to your favourite modded versions of the originals. Any new player like me will have no idea about which mods to install, which are compatible with each other, and most of us do not have the patience to read about all the hundreds of mods and NPC projects out there to find the one or two we'd like. Some of us probably don't even have the technical ability/patience to implement mods in any case.
Thus BG EE and BG 2EE must be compared with BG 1 Vanilla and BG 2 Vanilla.
To have a virtually bugless experience with the vanilla games, you just have to install a single mod (the Fixpack, respectively BG1 Fixpack and BG2 Fixpack) all other mods are optional.
Of course, you may consider also the Widescreen Mod and Bigger Fonts, if you want to play at higher resolutions, but they are not strictly necessary.
If we are considering the older version on discs, instead of the GOG one, you will require the official patch before the Fixpack, but that's it
Edit: if someone is smart enough to defeat Firkraag, he should also be smart (more than) enough to install a Fixpack. It's not that hard really
You are right, it is not difficult, I did in fact install the Fixpack, which was quick and convenient, but only AFTER I knew about it and asked on this forum for recommendations.
When I buy a game, I'd prefer to dive straight in, and not worry about mods/fixes at all. It isn't a question of how difficult it is, it is a question of peace of mind and convenience. Yes defeating Beholders is much harder than installing a BG 2 Fixpack, but defeating Beholders is also much more fun. :P
@Heindrich1988: That logic works for relatively current games, which don't normally require complex installation processes, but if you're trying to run a game from 2000 on a modern PC? You're going to have to do some extra legwork just to get your foot in the door.
And thus BG EE is an 'Enhanced Edition' for me. It is an improvement on the GoG Vanilla downloads, and saves me from having to spend time to learn about mods and fixes.
People always say 'oh it's easy and I can do it in one minute'... but that's only if you knew exactly which mods you want, which you can trust and where to find them. That research process is no fun, even if it isn't difficult.
Comments
As I said, that all comes down to opinion. One thing I do want to mention is the level of (nearly real-time) support these games are getting. I can't think of any other game I've ever played where I had the same access to the makers...not just community reps, or forum police, but the actual people coding the game. I see posts from team members late at night, on weekends, etc., trying to help people who have encountered bugs and providing workarounds if possible. I have a lot of respect for these folks and the effort they're making.
Last but not least, a LOT of people are overlooking the fact that not everybody was playing the vanilla games with mods. For some people, the idea of needing to install several mods and a fixpack before the game is 'functional' is enough to make them not play it at all. My first time through BG2, I had no idea such a thing as a 'mod' existed. Having so many fixes, tweaks and additional features incorporated into the EEs is a significant benefit for many players, myself included.
1: The reissues were appalling, and overall made the movies worse as a result.
2: At least it was the actual creator revisiting his own work and "updating" it. Although his additions to Empire and Jedi kind of fall in to the same issue, as he did not direct them, but he was a producer and has a level of creative input/control.
Also anyone using the "Overhaul" are ex BG devs. That is stretching things more than a little. The actual members who has creative control over the games is VERY minimal, and practically non existent for BGII. So no that point is utterly wrong.
Opinions on the other 2 NPCs have been mixed, but even that's better than the consensus views of a lot of vanilla NPCs. A lot of people also enjoy Neera for her unpredictability, which adds a new element to the game.
I think a lot of people make some big assumptions about the size of Beamdog as a company, the person-power available, and the scope of changes/additions allowed by the contract. Despite being limited in size and resources, Beamdog has managed to create a product that has reinvigorated interest in my favorite game of all time. That alone would be worth 25 bucks to me, but I've gotten to enjoy new characters, quests, kits, and improvements on top of that.
As for those who would have liked to see content added independent of the new NPCs, there's a new adventurey (to steal a phrase) DLC being developed right now that might just appeal to you. I would warn against coming to judgement on the EE too quickly, because it looks like there are more enhancements yet to come.
It came down to finances and economics.
If you wish to continue arguing this, please read every thread that has already touched on this issue and explain how it could of been feasible, without resorting to the "just do it now" argument like the one I have quoted above.
Second, new content:
It is ironic that someone that argues new content shouldn't be added by a professional development team would still sing the praises of mods that improves the functionality of the old game.
The new content is added in such a way that it can be easily ignored (except for Neera's, and Dorn's first encounter) that the classic game still shines through if you wish to ignore it. However, with the popularity of all the NPCs mods the original trilogy had, the developers decided adding professionally done NPCs would appease more in the market for this type of game.
If you want an original telling of the game, play the original.
And Gorion did shoot first.
Way ahead of you
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/404369/#Comment_404369
We've lost our original dubbing (Yep, those voices we loved to hear while playing) unless... well, we get to play with a bastardized local/english version (Or an edition where every single new voiced line has been muted)
All of that gives a feeling of modded content that doesn't match with the quality of the original game.
I still support BG:EE and Beamdog (I did preorder twice, and I'm defending their product on the biggest french forum in the VideoGame section - i'm the one that did the "Baldur's Gate" thread there ...) , but those are rather problematic, and that dubbing (Along the inclusion of the vanilla translated sound files) should have been made a long, long, long time ago for BG:EE and should DEFINATELY be made for BG2:EE. Not for the black pits (Honestly, I don't care : It's side content) but the base game HAS to be dubbed correctly.
What I hate about the new editions :
- The new content stands out. Not due to its quality, but due to the fact that it's not well integrated (BG:EE weapons using regular items bams ? ALL of the new content beeing tied to the new characters ? - there's NOT A SINGLE QUEST that has been added without the need of having one of these new NPCs in the group...)
- There was a lot of wasted opportunities regarding content integration (Dorn meeting Gromnir, come on, can't you do better than that ? Hexxat/Bodhy, PC Monk + Rasaad Monastery could have been a great stronghold...)
What I love about the new editions :
- Nice additional features
- Bug corrections
- Improved interface
- Game is evolving once again, and hardcoded shenanigans have been slightly improved.
So, well, yeah. I stand by my statement.
Baldur's Gate : Modded Edition for me, that is.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. Almost, because I can't bring myself to agree on this While I'm sure the team is doing his best to fix the bugs, there are still too many of them for me to love the current state of the EE.
I will of course reevaluate my judgement as the situation evolves.
Edit.: Heh, makes it funny : If you want to enjoy your BG2:EE playthrough, just play with vanilla content and you'll be fine until next patch.
Thus BG EE and BG 2EE must be compared with BG 1 Vanilla and BG 2 Vanilla. In this context, they are cleared Enchanced. I make that assertion based on comparison of the GoG versions of the Vanilla and the EE version from Beamdog, the two most convenient versions of the product for a new player.
Yes I wish BG 2EE was released with less bugs, but Beamdog are the most responsive and communicative games devs I've ever come across. I am sure it will be a matter of time before BG 2EE will be as reliable as BG EE, where I completed an entire completionist playthrough with only one noticeable bug (the Firebead quest in Candlekeep.)
Most of the bugs are side effects of improvements of the engine or other changes, but they may still ruin more or less the game experience.
Besides, it's not just a matter of number. The residual bugs of the original modded games are very mild in nature, instead some of the new bugs of the EE are very nasty.
However, now I'm digressing. Even if we don't agree on this, I liked the rest of your post
I disagree on this.
To have a virtually bugless experience with the vanilla games, you just have to install a single mod (the Fixpack, respectively BG1 Fixpack and BG2 Fixpack) all other mods are optional.
Of course, you may consider also the Widescreen Mod and Bigger Fonts, if you want to play at higher resolutions, but they are not strictly necessary.
If we are considering the older version on discs, instead of the GOG one, you will require the official patch before the Fixpack, but that's it
Edit: if someone is smart enough to defeat Firkraag, he should also be smart (more than) enough to install a Fixpack. It's not that hard really
You are right, it is not difficult, I did in fact install the Fixpack, which was quick and convenient, but only AFTER I knew about it and asked on this forum for recommendations.
When I buy a game, I'd prefer to dive straight in, and not worry about mods/fixes at all. It isn't a question of how difficult it is, it is a question of peace of mind and convenience. Yes defeating Beholders is much harder than installing a BG 2 Fixpack, but defeating Beholders is also much more fun. :P
And thus BG EE is an 'Enhanced Edition' for me. It is an improvement on the GoG Vanilla downloads, and saves me from having to spend time to learn about mods and fixes.
People always say 'oh it's easy and I can do it in one minute'... but that's only if you knew exactly which mods you want, which you can trust and where to find them. That research process is no fun, even if it isn't difficult.