I believe discourse is inherently healthy, and in the end, can only benefit the project at hand, assuming the end goal for both sides of said argument is a better experience for everyone involved, to the extent possible. When people start to lose their temper, productivity predictably goes down the toilet. But even though I (perhaps vehemently) disagree with the methods of @cryocore, if it leads to a discourse that ends up improving everyone's experience, I'm inclined to appreciate the results. My issue here comes down to tone, context, and intent, all of which can be admittedly difficult to ascertain over the internet. But still, I feel that there's no need for anyone on either side of this or any other debate to be caustic. We're all mad here.
The difference between the GOG version and the EE version is like 15 bucks. 15 bucks will buy you a pizza or it might pay for a cigarette habit for a day or two. I would gladly give someone two packs of smokes for a zoom function that I can use through a 500 hour game that I will play the rest of my life. The 40 hours of additional content is nice too as well as all of the other little tweaks. I played The latest build of BGEE and ran into no bugs at all. Not a single one that I noticed from start to finish. BG2 has some bugs but nothing game breaking and they will be fixed within a few months I'm sure.
The EE's are bigger and better and they work without any hassle on modern operating systems. I remember when TUTU and Trilogy had Bergest save game corruption and random game crashes as well as poor low res text, messed up enemy spawns and green water problems that required even more fixing. and that was years after the game was released. Beamdog are doing pretty well. I have never seen the original gate run this well before and I am confident that the few minor problems with #2 will get ironed out soon.
Using 1080P resolution makes the characters way too small. I am playing on a 55 inch HDTV and the character models are so small that I had to set the widescreen mod to a lower resolution which is not my monitors native resolution. Now I can set it to true 1080P and zoom the scale of the game to a good compromise between quality and size. I would have bought a complimentary pizza and had it delivered to any modder who offered me that option before beamdog came around.
2) I don't think that the new content is worse than the original, even though it feels a bit different, and I don't deny some nostalgic attachment to the original content and that's why I would like the possibility to selectively disable some (or all) of the new content just to experience (at least once) the vanilla content with all the enhancement of the improved EE engine.
See, this is where you lose me.
The new content isn't mandatory. You're never forced to experience any of it. You could quite plausibly play through BG2:EE without recruiting Dorn, Hexxat, Neera or Rasaad.
And yet you're advocating the possibility of removing that content rather than ignoring it. That's an emotional reaction, not a rational one: it's the existence of the content that bothers you, not its merits. And from a critical standpoint, that's a really poor position to take.
I mean, I have no use for Rasaad. He won't fit in either of the playthroughs I'm planning. But I can choose not to take Rasaad, and not to experience his content, without going out of my way to delete him from the game.
2) I don't think that the new content is worse than the original, even though it feels a bit different, and I don't deny some nostalgic attachment to the original content and that's why I would like the possibility to selectively disable some (or all) of the new content just to experience (at least once) the vanilla content with all the enhancement of the improved EE engine.
See, this is where you lose me.
The new content isn't mandatory. You're never forced to experience any of it. You could quite plausibly play through BG2:EE without recruiting Dorn, Hexxat, Neera or Rasaad.
And yet you're advocating the possibility of removing that content rather than ignoring it. That's an emotional reaction, not a rational one: it's the existence of the content that bothers you, not its merits. And from a critical standpoint, that's a really poor position to take.
I mean, I have no use for Rasaad. He won't fit in either of the playthroughs I'm planning. But I can choose not to take Rasaad, and not to experience his content, without going out of my way to delete him from the game.
It is simpler than you think and you are reading too much into it.
It is just a matter of habit. To clarify
1) I regard the new official NPCs as if they were NPCs from mods, for reasons I've already explained (e.g. they don't feel like the vanilla ones, nostalgic attachment to the original ones, etc.). You don't agree, suits yourself, it doesn't change the way I feel about the new NPCs
2) when I start a new playthrough, part of the fun is to select which mod to install (including the NPCs). Instead of installing any mod in existence, I carefully handpick a bunch of them. This make every playtrough an unique experience, increasing greatly in my opinion the replayability value of the game.
3) I simply want to be able to do that also with the new content. To be honest I really don't understand how having more choice on how to customise your game can be considered by you something bad
Can I just ignore Dorn? Sure, but I can as easily mod my game to disable him (I just have to change a single line in a single script, it would take only 5 seconds with NI, 5 minutes with WeiDU).
To those saying that adding content is expected to desired. I say would you want someone adding content to your favourite movie or book for no other reason than to add more content? Adding content to a game from another developer is never ok. IF you have the license you make your own. Don't alter the original content. That's disrespectful, and VERY arrogant.
Just gonna throw this out there as maybe you aren't aware... Devs here are some of the same people who made the original games. Both vBG1 and vBG2 all those years ago
It is also running a lot smoother and faster than ever before. I love that there is no saving or loading screen, when quick saving/loading. The EE's are a great enhancement in my opinion, and the future possibilities are greater than ever before.
@Erg: Because they're not mods. However convenient it may be for you to characterize them as such (because that perception - incorrect as it is - supports your argument), insofar as the EEs specifically are concerned Neera is as official a character as Imoen. And since I'm guessing you don't use WeiDU or NI to remove original characters you don't like, it's a bit hypocritical to take that approach with the EE NPCs.
@Erg: Because they're not mods. However convenient it may be for you to characterize them as such (because that perception - incorrect as it is - supports your argument), insofar as the EEs specifically are concerned Neera is as official a character as Imoen. And since I'm guessing you don't use WeiDU or NI to remove original characters you don't like, it's a bit hypocritical to take that approach with the EE NPCs.
Just gonna throw this out there as maybe you aren't aware... Devs here are some of the same people who made the original games. Both vBG1 and vBG2 all those years ago
I am perfectly aware that some of the team worked on BG1 and BG2. tell me how many of the Overhaul team were writers or content creators again? Dont worry you dont need to answer that, as that too is something I am aware of, and is exactly why I stand by my comment.
I think we shouldn't try to convince others about using EE instead of modded BG, or viceversa. Only time will clear this situation. As for now, no one can deny that we have the most active forum regarding Baldur's Gate stuff, where every thread about any version is welcome. Thing that can't be said for other forums. That's enough for me
You're entitled to your own subjective perceptions in terms of quality, preferences, all of that. That entitlement doesn't cover passing off biased misinformation as fact.
@shawne To be fair, both Dorn and Baeloth are fairly overpowered in BG1. Dorn has cheesy stats and Baeloth has a cheesy class. In BG2 Dorn falls more into the typical NPC bell-curve and Baeloth is no longer present, but in BG1 their recruitment makes the game considerably easier.
Baeloth is kind of a joke character, though, so I think its unfair to count him so much. For a start you have to be level 5 to get him in an area that you wouldn't ordinarily be level 5 while doing. Thus unless you're lucky or overpowered, chances are the only way you'll encounter him is if you are deliberately trying to get him.
Dorn is a fair point, though, he is fairly OP in BG1. Not so much in BG2, though.
@Adul Baeloth is OP for his MR, stats and bonus spells, if any. Sorcerer in BG1 isn't THAT OP compared to a Mage. You can't even reach lvl5 spells without a exp cap remover.
@Adul: My problem isn't with the claim that Dorn and Baeloth are overpowered, since that tends to be a very, very subjective criterion - one could just as easily argue that Baeloth has zero flexibility because Sorcerers can't change their loadout, and that Dorn's low Constitution means he can't always power through every encounter. But I take issue with the notion that they are, in any way, forced upon the player.
I will say that sometimes I wish I could disable the new NPCs as well. Not because I don't like them, but because occasionally I want to do a comparison with the original game--and because the iPad offers that functionality by making them "premium content" that you don't have to buy. The feasibility of implementing such a feature might not be reasonable, but I can empathize with wanting to, for example, "turn off" Rasaad or Neera and just play the original game, just as I could empathize with wanting to turn off the Babylonians (a DLC option) in Civilization V.
This thread is beginning to descend again into personal attacks; I'm not going to close it just yet, but I would like to remind everyone that in other threads you've all gotten along swimmingly; see if there's a way that you can find that same friendliness even when you're disagreeing.
For me the zoom feature alone was worth the $20. That's not a lot of money these days.
Of course I also appreciate all the other content--I really enjoy all the new NPCs. They're great fun. (One can always find something to complain about for almost any character in any game. The developer can never please everyone.) There are a few NPC mods that come close to their level of sophistication; but rarely is a mod's voice acting at a professional standard. And the voice acting is such a huge element of what makes NPCs succeed.
Most of all I appreciate that the game engine was recoded to help ensure continued longevity of the game for decades to come on new operating systems and devices.
In my eyes the game is now more like "Baldur's Gate : Unpolished Edition" or "Baldur's Gate : Work in Progress Edition". For me, after patch 1.2 BG:EE started to feel and function like I expected it to do at the launch. Mostly functional, stable, few aggggravating bugs in maps and journal. But still very, very unpolished. However after playing 1.2 for couple of weeks I started to realize, that I'd more gladly wait for the next patch to fix rest of the bugs, than install the vanilla version with mods.
Even if BG:EE haven't yet reached its maximum potential, I do believe that it is on its way to do so. Just the "unmarked spell highlighting"-feature tested during the 1.2 beta alone added +4 reputation to developers in my eyes, since that was something I'd wished to happen for the last decade. For me that single feature is much more valuable addition than a pack of new NPC:s.
If there will be more features like that, bug squashing for goodness, lag- and crashfree MP and maybe some adventurey expansion, Enhanced Editions will become the Definitive Editions. There is work to be done, but at least things are on the right track and going forward. In that sense the current "Baldur's Gate : Work in Progress Edition" is much better than the "Baldur's Gate : It ain't GOnna Get any better than this Edition".
@Adul How are Dorn's stats cheesy, exactly? There's nothing illegal about his stats. He has a half-orc's natural maximum strength. Yeah, that's powerful, but tough opponents like Graywolf can chew threw his middling HP with ease.
@Erg: Because they're not mods. However convenient it may be for you to characterize them as such (because that perception - incorrect as it is - supports your argument), insofar as the EEs specifically are concerned Neera is as official a character as Imoen. And since I'm guessing you don't use WeiDU or NI to remove original characters you don't like, it's a bit hypocritical to take that approach with the EE NPCs.
Content-wise, they are about as consequent as most good NPC mods. Quality-wise, they are about as good as the top-tier NPC mods (YMMV, of course, depending on personal preference...) Integration-wise, they are probably less integrated than most good NPCs mode (Especially Hexxat and Rasaad - Dorn and Neera at least have part of their content that are well integrated in existing areas)
So, yeah, it makes sense to treat them as mods, especially if you're not a native english player and have to bear playing without them (and all of their dedicated content...) beeing dubbed.
@cryocore oh its you again lol, you were the one complaining about your download the night this game was released, now you're complaining about the game itself, sheesh some people never change.
As you can see, 19 STR is indeed quite cheesy in BG1. That's especially the case that early on. He even out-damages Minsc who was the original best hitter in the game. (As a side note, now you can take both of them to steamroll pretty much anything.)
Also, just like Minsc, Dorn uses two-handed swords by default, which means he can keep his distance from foes while a better tank soaks up incoming damage. Not to mention the fact that he starts with a +1 weapon that turns into +2 as soon as he kills something. I'd say that's quite overkill at level 1.
Additionally, CON is not all that important in BG1. You can already avoid most incoming physical damage by lowering your AC, and even if you don't use the Gauntlets of Dexterity on him, Dorn has decent DEX to begin with.
Comments
Because you would never do that, right ?
See, and I actually did have a bit in my draft about how that did not work out well for me, but I deleted it.
But, that does raise another question: where's cryocore's jailing?
The EE's are bigger and better and they work without any hassle on modern operating systems. I remember when TUTU and Trilogy had Bergest save game corruption and random game crashes as well as poor low res text, messed up enemy spawns and green water problems that required even more fixing. and that was years after the game was released. Beamdog are doing pretty well. I have never seen the original gate run this well before and I am confident that the few minor problems with #2 will get ironed out soon.
Using 1080P resolution makes the characters way too small. I am playing on a 55 inch HDTV and the character models are so small that I had to set the widescreen mod to a lower resolution which is not my monitors native resolution. Now I can set it to true 1080P and zoom the scale of the game to a good compromise between quality and size. I would have bought a complimentary pizza and had it delivered to any modder who offered me that option before beamdog came around.
The new content isn't mandatory. You're never forced to experience any of it. You could quite plausibly play through BG2:EE without recruiting Dorn, Hexxat, Neera or Rasaad.
And yet you're advocating the possibility of removing that content rather than ignoring it. That's an emotional reaction, not a rational one: it's the existence of the content that bothers you, not its merits. And from a critical standpoint, that's a really poor position to take.
I mean, I have no use for Rasaad. He won't fit in either of the playthroughs I'm planning. But I can choose not to take Rasaad, and not to experience his content, without going out of my way to delete him from the game.
It is simpler than you think and you are reading too much into it.
It is just a matter of habit. To clarify
1) I regard the new official NPCs as if they were NPCs from mods, for reasons I've already explained (e.g. they don't feel like the vanilla ones, nostalgic attachment to the original ones, etc.). You don't agree, suits yourself, it doesn't change the way I feel about the new NPCs
2) when I start a new playthrough, part of the fun is to select which mod to install (including the NPCs). Instead of installing any mod in existence, I carefully handpick a bunch of them. This make every playtrough an unique experience, increasing greatly in my opinion the replayability value of the game.
3) I simply want to be able to do that also with the new content. To be honest I really don't understand how having more choice on how to customise your game can be considered by you something bad
Can I just ignore Dorn? Sure, but I can as easily mod my game to disable him (I just have to change a single line in a single script, it would take only 5 seconds with NI, 5 minutes with WeiDU).
I'm done arguing with you. I've expressed my opinion several time already. You don't agree, fine by me.
Only time will clear this situation.
As for now, no one can deny that we have the most active forum regarding Baldur's Gate stuff, where every thread about any version is welcome.
Thing that can't be said for other forums.
That's enough for me
You're entitled to your own subjective perceptions in terms of quality, preferences, all of that. That entitlement doesn't cover passing off biased misinformation as fact.
Dorn is a fair point, though, he is fairly OP in BG1. Not so much in BG2, though.
Baeloth is OP for his MR, stats and bonus spells, if any.
Sorcerer in BG1 isn't THAT OP compared to a Mage. You can't even reach lvl5 spells without a exp cap remover.
Just kidding... or am I?
This thread is beginning to descend again into personal attacks; I'm not going to close it just yet, but I would like to remind everyone that in other threads you've all gotten along swimmingly; see if there's a way that you can find that same friendliness even when you're disagreeing.
Of course I also appreciate all the other content--I really enjoy all the new NPCs. They're great fun. (One can always find something to complain about for almost any character in any game. The developer can never please everyone.) There are a few NPC mods that come close to their level of sophistication; but rarely is a mod's voice acting at a professional standard. And the voice acting is such a huge element of what makes NPCs succeed.
Most of all I appreciate that the game engine was recoded to help ensure continued longevity of the game for decades to come on new operating systems and devices.
Even if BG:EE haven't yet reached its maximum potential, I do believe that it is on its way to do so. Just the "unmarked spell highlighting"-feature tested during the 1.2 beta alone added +4 reputation to developers in my eyes, since that was something I'd wished to happen for the last decade. For me that single feature is much more valuable addition than a pack of new NPC:s.
If there will be more features like that, bug squashing for goodness, lag- and crashfree MP and maybe some adventurey expansion, Enhanced Editions will become the Definitive Editions. There is work to be done, but at least things are on the right track and going forward. In that sense the current "Baldur's Gate : Work in Progress Edition" is much better than the "Baldur's Gate : It ain't GOnna Get any better than this Edition".
I believe in the next patch the feature will be back: spells you can learn but do not currently know will be highlighted green in the menus/shops.
How are Dorn's stats cheesy, exactly? There's nothing illegal about his stats. He has a half-orc's natural maximum strength. Yeah, that's powerful, but tough opponents like Graywolf can chew threw his middling HP with ease.
Quality-wise, they are about as good as the top-tier NPC mods (YMMV, of course, depending on personal preference...)
Integration-wise, they are probably less integrated than most good NPCs mode (Especially Hexxat and Rasaad - Dorn and Neera at least have part of their content that are well integrated in existing areas)
So, yeah, it makes sense to treat them as mods, especially if you're not a native english player and have to bear playing without them (and all of their dedicated content...) beeing dubbed.
I'm glad you asked.
Let's start with an overview of the damage bonus each BG1 warrior NPC receives from strength:
Coran: 0
Khalid: 0
Jaheira: 0
Yeslick: 0
Ajantis: +1
Kagain: +1
Montaron: +1
Rasaad: +1
Kivan: +3
Shar-Teel: +3
Minsc: +5
Dorn: +7
As you can see, 19 STR is indeed quite cheesy in BG1. That's especially the case that early on. He even out-damages Minsc who was the original best hitter in the game. (As a side note, now you can take both of them to steamroll pretty much anything.)
Also, just like Minsc, Dorn uses two-handed swords by default, which means he can keep his distance from foes while a better tank soaks up incoming damage. Not to mention the fact that he starts with a +1 weapon that turns into +2 as soon as he kills something. I'd say that's quite overkill at level 1.
Additionally, CON is not all that important in BG1. You can already avoid most incoming physical damage by lowering your AC, and even if you don't use the Gauntlets of Dexterity on him, Dorn has decent DEX to begin with.