Actually it is very easy to ask charname and give the player several answers. For example: i got scarred blablablah, how have you coped with killing your bro, your father dying, some crazy dude torturing you, etc, etc? Then it is the bonding of two people who have suffered.
As it is, she just complains. Yes, she had a tough live. Like everyone else. The rest dont complain that much in their interactions with charname. But again, just imho. Had never tried the character before and i am sure she shows a different light in banters with other characters
In any case, it seems she is getting happy now with all my moral support.
Actually it is very easy to ask charname and give the player several answers. For example: i got scarred blablablah, how have you coped with killing your bro, your father dying, some crazy dude torturing you, etc, etc? Then it is the bonding of two people who have suffered.
You could, but you still couldn't write for every kind of response a charname might say, and since you are Charname you obviously already know about your own past and how you feel about it.
Aerie doesn't just complain; she does at first, then spends some time describing before getting really depressed. But then she'll reach her lowest point after a few banters and it's all up from there. And like I said, she never really talks about it with any other characters (some when they try to talk to her, but she usually just mumbles), as she tends to be more interested in them.
Aerie is a sweetheart and you are all big mean poopoo faces!
I understand that she cries about her wings alot. However, if someone cut off my legs I would never shut up about it!
I think its pretty brave that someone goes through that much trauma yet still has such a positive outlook on humanity (or elfanity or gnomanity) and is brave enough to face danger every day for her friends, knowing full well the risk of injury in such a profession.
Having volunteered in an emergency room and at a VA hospital, I can tell you that losing limbs or even losing control over some part of your body can be a *very* traumatic experience. I'd say that while some people stay very positive after such a disaster, most become bitter and frustrated for a couple years following their loss. Most find their way, but it takes a long time.
I'd say Aerie whines a lot less than almost anyone would in her situation. Damn! Today I whined about having to walk in the rain to get my sandwich from the local deli. If I lost my leg you'd never hear the end of it!
I don't think Aerie whines all that much, even if you're just using whining to mean complaining. Yes, CHARNAME has been through perhaps worse, and doesn't complain (unless you're lucky enough to have an NPC mod that allows it- and it's been done by mods, so it can definitely be done). But people deal with different things different ways, and honestly, Aerie does seem young.
Her interactions with Viconia and Jaheira are fairly troubling, though, in my opinion. I've been in her position: had a bad past, difficult things happened, liked a guy that was liked by other gals (and one guy, who eventually won, heh)- and never once was I inclined to go off on them about dead boyfriends and such. That's just completely low, and would probably get a girl utterly orchestried by any friends circle I've ever been in. And it's not a one time thing; Aerie does it repeatedly. There's some bitterness at her core there, and it's completely undeserved when she's aiming it at Jaheira. That, I could see as a definite reason to dislike her: most of my characters basically dump her on the spot after that bit.
But whiny? Nah. No more so then Imoen, I don't think.
Agreed. There is a lot of bitterness at Aerie's core, hence I see her attack on Jaheira as a reversion to type rather than anomalous behavior. The bitterness is part of her being and it's just rearing its head. No amount of linguistic contortions about her acting out of character, etc. is going to explain this away.
An additional thing to note is that her capture and loss of wings happened some time ago. Quayle rescued her, and from the looks of it, loved her and treated her kindly. Yet the kindness did not seem to help her get over the loss of wings.
She had a rough time, I give her that. But when she becomes so self-absorbed to the point where she can't see that there has been kindness shown to her and keeps harping on the wings all the way to the epilogue, and throws tantrums, makes low blows, now that's a lot of reasons to dislike her.
That's a good point. A couple of weeks with charname and she starts being ok about her life on earth, what the hell was quayle doing? :-D
I dont buy the whole "she is very troubled blahblahblah". Everyone in that game has had horrible experiences but only she spends 4-5 talks just complaining about stuff and self-pitying. It has annoyed the hell out of me. In fact, got the "i want to die" talk before that stupid merchant shouts at you in the keep strondhold. He paid for charname frustrations with his life :-D
But don't know, maybe when i finish the romance i am on the "she is a cutie" team :-)
I think we all agree that Aerie merits empathy from Charname (and other NPCs) for all that she's been through. But it would suit her to show some more empathy to Charname who, as others have said, has gone and is going through some serious shit as well. In that respect Aerie is relatively high maintenance compared to Neera, Jaheira and some of the mod NPCs.
That's a good point. A couple of weeks with charname and she starts being ok about her life on earth, what the hell was quayle doing? :-D
I dont buy the whole "she is very troubled blahblahblah". Everyone in that game has had horrible experiences but only she spends 4-5 talks just complaining about stuff and self-pitying. It has annoyed the hell out of me. In fact, got the "i want to die" talk before that stupid merchant shouts at you in the keep strondhold. He paid for charname frustrations with his life :-D
But don't know, maybe when i finish the romance i am on the "she is a cutie" team :-)
Many of the BG NPCs are tragic characters one way or another... perhaps this is why they are drawn to Charname.
Anomen - abusive father, mother died before he could succeed, sister murdered Imoen - tortured and abused (Irenicus said he had to show her some very dark shadows) Jaheira - broken childhood, husband murdered Keldorn - difficult family life and watched friends and comrades die, was tortured Mazzy - adventuring party destroyed, lover (Patrick) killed by Shade Lord Nalia - father killed by trolls when defending keep Sarevok - mother killed by foster father, killed by Charname, mourned Tamoko, was dead and now alive Valygar - mother neglected father, father died, mother went insane, killed them after both became undead Viconia - outcast from society, brother died saving her, persecuted on surface Yoshimo - unwilling recipient of geas, died with regrets
Everyone has a compelling story to tell. But other than Anomen, few of them talk about it, and even if they do, they seem to be reluctant to dwell on it. Definitely, Aerie has her supporters, but in a sea of tragic characters, her regular talk about her loss will make her stand out
I'm personally in the camp of defending (most of) Aerie's actions, and I think that most of the other characters are both older (at least mentally) and more hardened by their travels. She's young, naive, and has had a tortured life. So have most of the characters, but they're either more reticent to speak about it, or know what it's like to go through hardship. I think that just like some types of girls don't appeal to every guy in the real world, Aerie doesn't appeal to every player. I personally like to be the strong, understanding, and empathetic boyfriend, but not everyone wants a girl that they have to constantly bolster and listen to. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. People are different. They want different things in a relationship. Perhaps you prefer a stronger, almost motherly woman, like Jaheira. Or maybe you want a sort of crazy hot girlfriend, like Viconia. Heck, maybe you want some muscle bound brute who doesn't care what race, color, gender, or temperament you have, as long as you're strong!
My point is, the romances aren't perfect. There's going to be people who aren't satisfied with them all, or even any of them. But even discounting the EE romances, there's still a good variety of different personality types for you to choose in the romances. Choose the one that suits you, and enjoy it. Or make a monk who eschews physical contact and ignore them all. It's a game. Do what you want.
@Elrandir Actually, someone like Branwen would appeal more to me. Strong, independent, takes things in her stride, and serious but not averse to a little naughtiness ^_^
@jacobtan Actually, I'd love a Branwen romance, though I'm not a big fan of strong women usually. I'd want your character to gain an unlockable exclamation once you've romanced her, though. "By Branwen's strapping buttocks!" ;p
To put things in perspective, she's been kidnapped from her home by slavers, tortured, broken, sold, humiliated and then neglected; losing her wings was just the culmination of all that
This is no unique thing, especially considering in what fantasy world we are in.
Viccy was as well - except that she has had no wings to loose.
As for the comparison to those who have lost limbs - this is a fantasy world, where there is magic; imagine how those would be if they KNEW they could get those lost limbs back through magical means.
So there would at least be hope that one could regain what was lost.
And I really do not buy the "weak muscles" crud - one can retrain muscle. Heck, as a high level Cleric/Mage, she can cast Regeneration and then Wish. Done deal. Probably Regeneration and Limited Wish would also work.
But as a Mage, she can also cast the FLY spell. For that, she doesn't NEED wings! And if she wants it permanent, well...permanency works fine here.
But noooooooo! Bemoan, oh poah lil' meeee! Fixing your wings is just a little magic, really darlin'! A simple regeneration spell works here. Then just do a permanent Fly, and away you go!
I mean, she has the necessary tools at her disposal the whole time!
Viccy has it much harder.
Also, it would have sort of been nice if Jaheira had had a way to ressurrect or reincarnate Khalid.
Neera doesn't whine! She does make a few comments lamenting her...well, typical woman stuff, really.
You know "Do you think I am getting too fat?!" sort of lines..."Do you think my Wildmagic is too...dangerous?"...hehe...don't you DARE answer that!
And of course when her plans blow up in her face (literally, and it isn't a real surprise to anyone, not even Neera herself, really), well, she makes a comment or two, but then on to the next...blunder. Yeah.
Gotta like her!
Seriously, Neera doesn't spend large amounts of your time bitterly reminiscing about her past. She remarks a few times about CURRENT EVENTS - that is not whining, that is living.
Aerie is trapped in the past. Everything in her world is connected to what has happened to her...IN THE PAST! That is whining.
Neera annoys the heck out of me. I haven't experienced her in BG2, (BG1 was bad enough with her) but in BG1 she had annoying statements, went between being really timid and really overconfident, and my biggest annoyance was how she seemed to think everything she did had been on her own. As if a party of five experienced adventurers hadn't done anything. Also when you return to the FAI and she runs up to you saying "It's about time!" and then when you say you're just passing through and she calls you undependable. Well maybe you shouldn't depend on somebody you only met once, who saved you from assailants only because you dragged them into it, and then stole your gear and abandoned you. And I agree with people who say her voice doesn't really fit into the world.
"oh my gaaawwwddd my life is so hard, I can just turn into a squirrel at any minute"
"oh, woe is me, I was so embarrassed as a kid when i screwed up my wild magic"
"Everywhere I go I'm so hunted down, its just so terrible, like, you know? Aren't I just the most oppressed and mistreated person, like, evah?"
The worst one: After you save her life from a bunch of Red Wizards that she give you no choice but to fight: "Sorry Neera, I don't have room in my party" exact quote "Oh well thats disappointing. I was all worked up to go on an adventure and now you've left me to DIE IN THE WILDERNESS!"
Yeah, the great wilderness of Beregost, the city with 14 different inns!
See... but I actually understand that Neera had it pretty hard. She is entitled to her whining. She was chased.
Except in Aerie's case, she was chased, captured, mutilated, used as a slave, physically and emotionally abused and sold at a young age.
Yet at least she has the courtesy to be polite and appreciative after her whining!
I actually really like Neera. But I really like Aerie too. They both seem a lot alike to me! Well except that Neera is a lot slower to develop a moral center...
I like Neera too, and that comment wasn't meant to disparage the character, only to use her whining as a comparison with Aerie's. I think their struggles are important parts of their characters.
I think someone up there had it right. Aerie is like a teenager more or less. I guess that's why it does not appeal to me. Probably would have, had I done her romance in BG2 vanilla 10 years ago :-)
And not sure if neera whines too, but I don't remember her annoying me when I went through it a couple of weeks ago, so I'm inclined to think they are different. Or maybe I am biased without realising. Will post my conclusions at the end. Just read her pregnancy is only 33 days. That is certainly a plus on her side!!
@WebShaman: When you mention the possibility of Aerie casting Regeneration, Fly and all that stuff, you're kind of illogical. But then, so is the whole game. You could apply the same to any situation: Khalid could easily be resurrected, anyone could easily deal with all their emotional problems by casting Remove Fear or similar spells, etc.
But this would render all characters and their lives basically meaningless. So, there's a double standard at work: on the one hand, there are real problems, and on the other, there are spells that could fix them, but the spells are not used to fix them.
You seem to have pretty strong negative feelings about Aerie! That's very interesting.
"Oh well thats disappointing. I was all worked up to go on an adventure and now you've left me to DIE IN THE WILDERNESS!"
As I said, typical female hyperbole. Obviously this is an over-the-top sort of exclamation (kind of like "You ALWAYS...insert appropriate negative comment here"). That is Neera, yup.
And of course she takes credit for everything - Neera's world is full of...Neera! She is a very chaotic sort of individual.
One may not like her, one may get annoyed at her, sure. But she acts according to her character.
Aerie is a real mess. I've already gone into most of the major areas that just do not make sense. If she has suffered so much, then she should not be so naive.
You just do not have both together. It doesn't work, unless one is an imbecile.
Taking a look at Aerie's Stats :
Str 10 Dex 17 Con 9 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 14
Cleric level 7 Mage level 7
She has an above average Int and Wis - in fact, both are very good. Being that 18 is the best humans can reach, having 16 in both means that she can reason very well, and has very good intuition, insight, etc. Her rather high Cha means she also posses character strength.
This clearly does not match up with how she is portrayed in the game. I could see her providing Charname with relevant information and insight into her past, and the events therein. Sure, no problem, everyone does that when they get involved, more or less.
But she does it in a flighty, needy, whiny sort of way that just doesn't work with those stats. Perhaps if her Wis was less, or her Int (and definitely that Cha!), well, I could buy it. But with all that going for her, nope.
Worse, when she gets involved with you, she basically flat-out makes you choose her over the others - and she is not hesitant nor wishy-washy about it. And in the case of Haery, well...you really have to be sweet and loving and...kind. Kind to a Tiefling trying to horn into your relationship.
Oh, right, she is in love with you both.
So you better tell her you love her, or she shacks right up with him.
This is high Wis?
Next, she is a 7th level Wizard, right?
Well, Fly spell is a 3rd level spell.
She should have been able to learn it at level 5. So she should be able to fly, if only by spell.
Later, it should be possible to make Fly permanent with Permanency, or with Limited Wish or Wish, accordingly.
With her high Int and Wis, this should be obvious to her.
@WebShaman You're going back to the spell solution, which as xzar_monty said, makes character development meaningless. And just because you suffer, doesn't mean you're not naive. She may not be trusting of people because of what she's gone through, but she has no experience with love, friendships, or adventuring life. She can be naive in those aspects of her life.
As for Neera, yes one could accurately say that she stays in character. But if that character annoys the p*** out of me, then she can leave and not join my party ever.
Y'know, I actually grew rather fond of Neera as I completed her BG1 questline. At first I thought she was annoying, but as I talked with her and did her quests, I thought she was much more likable and interesting. And then when I finished the quest and she was such a royal ar*e, then I hated her more than I had before. Fun fact: Don't make a character regress into being annoying after they've seemed to grow out of it.
Khalid is an interesting dilemna and raising him seems to be an option - it is also one raised by Jaheira, in a convo. She doesn't wish it done, and one of the more important parts of being raised is that one only returns to life IF THEY SO CHOOSE.
It could just be that Khalid doesn't wish to return to life, and Jaheira instinctively knows that, or perhaps they discussed such, privately.
We are not privy to that information, however. We only know that Jaheira is against raising Khalid.
I actually like Jaheira, and I have romanced her in one run through.
As for casting Remove Fear or using magic to deal with emotional problems, that would only be possible if it was permanent. Since most magic is on a duration basis, it wouldn't work very well. You would constantly be having to "dose" someone...much like a junkie.
"Aerie, come here, time for your medicine!"
I don't think this would be a free-willed solution. As such, it would probably be an evil solution at best.
Now fixing physical wounds is something that is inherent to the D&D game. It would have been much better if she had been born without wings IMHO. But even then, a Wish spell could give her new ones, if properly worded, and she has a high enough Int and Wis to do it.
In a low magic environment ala BG, sure, I can see Aerie being a valid NPC. But in BGII, where magic is just lying around everywhere, her condition just doesn't make any sense. If it is that important to her, then she has the means at her fingertips (literally) to help herself.
It is not that I don't like Aerie as she is done. I have romanced her, after all, in one of my run-throughs. It is just that her character doesn't make any sense, and doesn't match her stats. It is like someone took a lot of parts and glued them together without considering using the instructions.
So what came out was a jumble, a mess. Maybe a piece of Art, but certainly not anything else remotely resembling what it should be IMHO.
And just because you suffer, doesn't mean you're not naive. She may not be trusting of people because of what she's gone through, but she has no experience with love, friendships, or adventuring life. She can be naive in those aspects of her life.
She has experience in friendship (Quayle, obviously), and we do not know if she does with love (because it is never mentioned, one way or the other). Adventuring life is something she doesn't have (but she may have had before she got captured, we don't know), but as part of a Circus, she has moved around alot, and met lots of different people, so to speak (though as to how much involvement she had we do not know, either).
She is not going to be naive, not at all.
Now, she may not be an expert on matters of the heart, or other things, but she is highly intelligent, very wise, and has a strong personality and sense of self (Int, Wis, and Cha). And she has had a kind Mentor in Quayle. And somewhere down the line, she learned to read, and learned how to cast Magic as a Mage, as well as being a Cleric. And not a low level one, but 7/7.
So she got experience from somewhere, and not a little.
So how did she get all that experience? Because that is what XPs represent, really. Experience Points.
Look at Charname. He reached what, level 7,8 etc after doing all of Baldur's Gate? How did Aerie get all those XPs? She got them somewhere.
We have no idea what she experienced BEFORE she got taken by slavers, btw. She doesn't mention much about that part of her past. Obviously she got a ton of XPs from somewhere, though.
@WebShaman: Again, a character's mental stats (INT, CHA and WIS) have actually nothing to do with their intelligence, wisdom or charisma. They're just numbers that are used when making some mechanical game checks.
Edwin, for instance, for all his 18 intelligence, is stupid as hell. Aerie is not very wise. Viconia isn't wise at all. Anomen's wisdom increase is ridiculously excessive, if you think about how small his moral development actually is.
I don't think any comparisons between D&D mechanics and "real life" questions of intelligence, maturity or psychological depth work.
Edwin is not stupid, he lacks insight and wisdom (10 Wis) to balance out his high Int. In fact, apart from his high Int (and Con), Edwin has mediocre stats. As such, he tends to act on impulse, and lets his emotions get the best of him (as one would expect with a high Int but a medium Wis). And with a mediocre Cha, he doesn't have an overwhelming character, either, nor real character strength.
I find Viconia shows her wisdom, she shows a lot of insight and maturity in much of what she does (and reveals to us). You shouldn't forget that she is really a stranger in a strange land, one that hates all of her kind. She is also having to fight her own social programming (of which the Drow have some of the harshest there is). Only due to her high Int, Wis, and Cha is she able to survive on the surface, alone.
She showed a lot of Int and Wis in choosing to lay low, and actually accomplishing her goal of owning a farm (which she did, alone). She remained totally cloaked and hooded to others (awareness of what her Race invokes in the surfacers). That she made a mistake in trusting in the nearby farmer...well, that happens when we sometimes let our guard down, doesn't it? That has more to do with her Race than with her stats, though.
That she had enough intelligence and common sense to keep herself hidden reflects her stats. That she risked that turned out to be a less than smart decision, but she learned from that as well.
I find that she is rather well portrayed according to her stats.
I don't know about Anomen, as I have not had him in my party at all.
And yes, comparisons between D&D mechanics and "real life" questions of Int, maturity, and/or psychological depth do need to be kept appropriate. You can't have an NPC acting really intelligence when they have a 3 Int, and vice versa.
Note that scores around the 9-12 region are "normal" human scores - meaning you will find almost all range of human characteristics and behavior in these score ranges. Only those above and below provide exceptional ones.
Take a look at Minsc. He is portrayed perfectly according to his stats IMHO. Now, if he had a high Int and/or Wis, I would consider that wrong, but as he has the opposite, things make perfect sense.
@WebShaman I knew you'd bring up Quayle. I think that rather than a friend so much, he was really just a mentor. She may have thought of him as a friend, but I can't see that as being so much of a friendship as it was an apprenticeship.
And I was level ten, thank you. I'm a proud bard. ;p
Frankly, I don't think anyone could convince you, as is so often the case with arguments and discussions. That said, you can't convince me either, so we are left with accepting that we disagree. I do not believe that Aerie's actions are without merit, and I certainly do not believe they should be considered whining. But it is a game, and can be left to individual interpretation.
Now then, this whole Aerie tangent is excessively off topic from the original point of the thread. (in a way) I think that there is definite merit in skipping the romances, as none of them are perfectly suited to my tastes. Especially Evil McHot chick and miss "I'm old enough to be your mother and oh btw, my husband just died. Now pull down your pants." (Yes, I know, she's not that bad. I'm exaggerating.) Then again, maybe having a baby on an adventure isn't a great idea either. As for Anomen... He still has my favorite BG portrait of all time. That's my entire opinion on him. What about the newcomers? I'm not into big, gruff, and evil, nor am I a fan of afro women. Rasaad seems like a cool dude, though. If I were a female in that world I'd probably marry him. He's got that monk agility.
My PC also has 18+ Charisma so it doesn't feel so strange to be wanted by every woman. If he had a lot less charisma I think the women are blind lol
Rasaad isn't that bad, I agree. Of the new NPCs, he's the least disagreeable. My friend actually dislikes Dorn, Hexxat and Neera, and he actually killed off Hexxat before the quest. His complaint is similar to mine, that the new NPCs are quite out of place in the writing.
Here, I'll throw my opinion in about Khalid. I think he could have been resurrected. The dialog tree with Jaheira indicates that Charname thinks Khalid could have been resurrected and asked Jaheira to try, but Jaheira said no.
I believe this is partly indicative of Jaheira's True Neutral alignment and druidic beliefs, because resurrecting Khalid after he's dead for a while is against the natural cycle of life and death even if it's a benevolent act. Thus said, it made Aerie's attack on her even more repulsive...
I said level 7,8 etc. Note the etc part? Nice to hear you made level 10 (with or without ToSC)?
And I can absolutely convince you that Quayle was more than "just" a mentor (and that Aerie kept having issues due to her wings and the events surrounding them up until the end) -
Aerie continued adventuring after leaving Charname's company, driven in her travels to oppose slavery in any form. Her compassion grew tainted by revenge, however; revenge for what had been taken when she was in chains. She might have lost herself entirely had she not stubmled across a group of Avariel winged elves enslaved in Cormyr. They compelled her to come to Faenya-Dail, the home she was originally stolen from, and she learned much while there. Most importantly, she learned she was no longer one of them, and stopped pining for wings she wouldn't use anyway. Aerie eventually became a high priestess in Understone, a gnomish village her mentor Quayle had sometimes spoken of. He had been her true family, and it was among his people that she finally found peace.
This is Aerie's ending storyline if not romanced.
As we can plainly see, she regarded Quayle as not only mentor, but also as Father!!! So she knew both friendship and yes, fatherly love from Quayle, recognizing him as her true family (much to the distress of her loving parents who had never stopped looking for her as revealed in her ending storyline if romanced, no doubt).
Of course, you can continue to deny it, and block this text out, and not read or experience her ending storyline so as to avoid admitting the truth.
It is not so much as a matter of being convinced, as it is one of accepting facts here.
Aerie has issues with her Wings and the events surrounding them all through the game, up until the end. Fact. She was closer to her mentor as a student-mentor relationship would indicate. Fact. She has a high Int, Wis, and Cha and is not portrayed as if she does. Fact.
So when you finally get around to accepting the facts, well, then I guess we can discuss things further.
I think the majority of my characters would kill Hexxat immediately, and BG2 Dorn as well. In the first game I could rationalize Dorn in both a meta-gaming and a role-play sense. I want either the spell resistance amulet, or the elven chainmail. My characters despise betrayal, and if he's just killing murderers, then at least they're not aiding him in killing innocents. In BG2, he's doing what? About to kill the priest at a wedding? Um... Yeah. No. My characters would stop him. As for Hexxat, she is not only a vile vampire, she also just killed one of our party members. A blade in the gut and a stake in the heart is all she gets from my characters.
As for how that makes Aerie's attack more repulsive, I don't know... I haven't seen the exact dialogue, but to me it sounds both more vicious, but more accurate as well. *Shrugs*
Comments
As it is, she just complains. Yes, she had a tough live. Like everyone else. The rest dont complain that much in their interactions with charname. But again, just imho. Had never tried the character before and i am sure she shows a different light in banters with other characters
In any case, it seems she is getting happy now with all my moral support.
Aerie doesn't just complain; she does at first, then spends some time describing before getting really depressed. But then she'll reach her lowest point after a few banters and it's all up from there. And like I said, she never really talks about it with any other characters (some when they try to talk to her, but she usually just mumbles), as she tends to be more interested in them.
I understand that she cries about her wings alot. However, if someone cut off my legs I would never shut up about it!
I think its pretty brave that someone goes through that much trauma yet still has such a positive outlook on humanity (or elfanity or gnomanity) and is brave enough to face danger every day for her friends, knowing full well the risk of injury in such a profession.
Having volunteered in an emergency room and at a VA hospital, I can tell you that losing limbs or even losing control over some part of your body can be a *very* traumatic experience. I'd say that while some people stay very positive after such a disaster, most become bitter and frustrated for a couple years following their loss. Most find their way, but it takes a long time.
I'd say Aerie whines a lot less than almost anyone would in her situation. Damn! Today I whined about having to walk in the rain to get my sandwich from the local deli. If I lost my leg you'd never hear the end of it!
Her interactions with Viconia and Jaheira are fairly troubling, though, in my opinion. I've been in her position: had a bad past, difficult things happened, liked a guy that was liked by other gals (and one guy, who eventually won, heh)- and never once was I inclined to go off on them about dead boyfriends and such. That's just completely low, and would probably get a girl utterly orchestried by any friends circle I've ever been in. And it's not a one time thing; Aerie does it repeatedly. There's some bitterness at her core there, and it's completely undeserved when she's aiming it at Jaheira. That, I could see as a definite reason to dislike her: most of my characters basically dump her on the spot after that bit.
But whiny? Nah. No more so then Imoen, I don't think.
Agreed. There is a lot of bitterness at Aerie's core, hence I see her attack on Jaheira as a reversion to type rather than anomalous behavior. The bitterness is part of her being and it's just rearing its head. No amount of linguistic contortions about her acting out of character, etc. is going to explain this away.
An additional thing to note is that her capture and loss of wings happened some time ago. Quayle rescued her, and from the looks of it, loved her and treated her kindly. Yet the kindness did not seem to help her get over the loss of wings.
She had a rough time, I give her that. But when she becomes so self-absorbed to the point where she can't see that there has been kindness shown to her and keeps harping on the wings all the way to the epilogue, and throws tantrums, makes low blows, now that's a lot of reasons to dislike her.
I dont buy the whole "she is very troubled blahblahblah". Everyone in that game has had horrible experiences but only she spends 4-5 talks just complaining about stuff and self-pitying. It has annoyed the hell out of me. In fact, got the "i want to die" talk before that stupid merchant shouts at you in the keep strondhold. He paid for charname frustrations with his life :-D
But don't know, maybe when i finish the romance i am on the "she is a cutie" team :-)
Anomen - abusive father, mother died before he could succeed, sister murdered
Imoen - tortured and abused (Irenicus said he had to show her some very dark shadows)
Jaheira - broken childhood, husband murdered
Keldorn - difficult family life and watched friends and comrades die, was tortured
Mazzy - adventuring party destroyed, lover (Patrick) killed by Shade Lord
Nalia - father killed by trolls when defending keep
Sarevok - mother killed by foster father, killed by Charname, mourned Tamoko, was dead and now alive
Valygar - mother neglected father, father died, mother went insane, killed them after both became undead
Viconia - outcast from society, brother died saving her, persecuted on surface
Yoshimo - unwilling recipient of geas, died with regrets
Everyone has a compelling story to tell. But other than Anomen, few of them talk about it, and even if they do, they seem to be reluctant to dwell on it. Definitely, Aerie has her supporters, but in a sea of tragic characters, her regular talk about her loss will make her stand out
My point is, the romances aren't perfect. There's going to be people who aren't satisfied with them all, or even any of them. But even discounting the EE romances, there's still a good variety of different personality types for you to choose in the romances. Choose the one that suits you, and enjoy it. Or make a monk who eschews physical contact and ignore them all. It's a game. Do what you want.
Viccy was as well - except that she has had no wings to loose.
As for the comparison to those who have lost limbs - this is a fantasy world, where there is magic; imagine how those would be if they KNEW they could get those lost limbs back through magical means.
So there would at least be hope that one could regain what was lost.
And I really do not buy the "weak muscles" crud - one can retrain muscle. Heck, as a high level Cleric/Mage, she can cast Regeneration and then Wish. Done deal. Probably Regeneration and Limited Wish would also work.
But as a Mage, she can also cast the FLY spell. For that, she doesn't NEED wings! And if she wants it permanent, well...permanency works fine here.
But noooooooo! Bemoan, oh poah lil' meeee! Fixing your wings is just a little magic, really darlin'! A simple regeneration spell works here. Then just do a permanent Fly, and away you go!
I mean, she has the necessary tools at her disposal the whole time!
Viccy has it much harder.
Also, it would have sort of been nice if Jaheira had had a way to ressurrect or reincarnate Khalid.
Whatever.
Thank goodness for Neera!
Talk about whinny over nothing...
You know "Do you think I am getting too fat?!" sort of lines..."Do you think my Wildmagic is too...dangerous?"...hehe...don't you DARE answer that!
And of course when her plans blow up in her face (literally, and it isn't a real surprise to anyone, not even Neera herself, really), well, she makes a comment or two, but then on to the next...blunder. Yeah.
Gotta like her!
Seriously, Neera doesn't spend large amounts of your time bitterly reminiscing about her past. She remarks a few times about CURRENT EVENTS - that is not whining, that is living.
Aerie is trapped in the past. Everything in her world is connected to what has happened to her...IN THE PAST! That is whining.
"oh, woe is me, I was so embarrassed as a kid when i screwed up my wild magic"
"Everywhere I go I'm so hunted down, its just so terrible, like, you know? Aren't I just the most oppressed and mistreated person, like, evah?"
The worst one: After you save her life from a bunch of Red Wizards that she give you no choice but to fight:
"Sorry Neera, I don't have room in my party"
exact quote
"Oh well thats disappointing. I was all worked up to go on an adventure and now you've left me to DIE IN THE WILDERNESS!"
Yeah, the great wilderness of Beregost, the city with 14 different inns!
See... but I actually understand that Neera had it pretty hard. She is entitled to her whining. She was chased.
Except in Aerie's case, she was chased, captured, mutilated, used as a slave, physically and emotionally abused and sold at a young age.
Yet at least she has the courtesy to be polite and appreciative after her whining!
And not sure if neera whines too, but I don't remember her annoying me when I went through it a couple of weeks ago, so I'm inclined to think they are different. Or maybe I am biased without realising. Will post my conclusions at the end. Just read her pregnancy is only 33 days. That is certainly a plus on her side!!
But this would render all characters and their lives basically meaningless. So, there's a double standard at work: on the one hand, there are real problems, and on the other, there are spells that could fix them, but the spells are not used to fix them.
You seem to have pretty strong negative feelings about Aerie! That's very interesting.
And of course she takes credit for everything - Neera's world is full of...Neera! She is a very chaotic sort of individual.
One may not like her, one may get annoyed at her, sure. But she acts according to her character.
Aerie is a real mess. I've already gone into most of the major areas that just do not make sense. If she has suffered so much, then she should not be so naive.
You just do not have both together. It doesn't work, unless one is an imbecile.
Taking a look at Aerie's Stats :
Str 10
Dex 17
Con 9
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 14
Cleric level 7
Mage level 7
She has an above average Int and Wis - in fact, both are very good. Being that 18 is the best humans can reach, having 16 in both means that she can reason very well, and has very good intuition, insight, etc. Her rather high Cha means she also posses character strength.
This clearly does not match up with how she is portrayed in the game. I could see her providing Charname with relevant information and insight into her past, and the events therein. Sure, no problem, everyone does that when they get involved, more or less.
But she does it in a flighty, needy, whiny sort of way that just doesn't work with those stats. Perhaps if her Wis was less, or her Int (and definitely that Cha!), well, I could buy it. But with all that going for her, nope.
Worse, when she gets involved with you, she basically flat-out makes you choose her over the others - and she is not hesitant nor wishy-washy about it. And in the case of Haery, well...you really have to be sweet and loving and...kind. Kind to a Tiefling trying to horn into your relationship.
Oh, right, she is in love with you both.
So you better tell her you love her, or she shacks right up with him.
This is high Wis?
Next, she is a 7th level Wizard, right?
Well, Fly spell is a 3rd level spell.
She should have been able to learn it at level 5. So she should be able to fly, if only by spell.
Later, it should be possible to make Fly permanent with Permanency, or with Limited Wish or Wish, accordingly.
With her high Int and Wis, this should be obvious to her.
As for Neera, yes one could accurately say that she stays in character. But if that character annoys the p*** out of me, then she can leave and not join my party ever.
Y'know, I actually grew rather fond of Neera as I completed her BG1 questline. At first I thought she was annoying, but as I talked with her and did her quests, I thought she was much more likable and interesting. And then when I finished the quest and she was such a royal ar*e, then I hated her more than I had before. Fun fact: Don't make a character regress into being annoying after they've seemed to grow out of it.
It could just be that Khalid doesn't wish to return to life, and Jaheira instinctively knows that, or perhaps they discussed such, privately.
We are not privy to that information, however. We only know that Jaheira is against raising Khalid.
I actually like Jaheira, and I have romanced her in one run through.
As for casting Remove Fear or using magic to deal with emotional problems, that would only be possible if it was permanent. Since most magic is on a duration basis, it wouldn't work very well. You would constantly be having to "dose" someone...much like a junkie.
"Aerie, come here, time for your medicine!"
I don't think this would be a free-willed solution. As such, it would probably be an evil solution at best.
Now fixing physical wounds is something that is inherent to the D&D game. It would have been much better if she had been born without wings IMHO. But even then, a Wish spell could give her new ones, if properly worded, and she has a high enough Int and Wis to do it.
In a low magic environment ala BG, sure, I can see Aerie being a valid NPC. But in BGII, where magic is just lying around everywhere, her condition just doesn't make any sense. If it is that important to her, then she has the means at her fingertips (literally) to help herself.
It is not that I don't like Aerie as she is done. I have romanced her, after all, in one of my run-throughs. It is just that her character doesn't make any sense, and doesn't match her stats. It is like someone took a lot of parts and glued them together without considering using the instructions.
So what came out was a jumble, a mess. Maybe a piece of Art, but certainly not anything else remotely resembling what it should be IMHO.
She is not going to be naive, not at all.
Now, she may not be an expert on matters of the heart, or other things, but she is highly intelligent, very wise, and has a strong personality and sense of self (Int, Wis, and Cha). And she has had a kind Mentor in Quayle. And somewhere down the line, she learned to read, and learned how to cast Magic as a Mage, as well as being a Cleric. And not a low level one, but 7/7.
So she got experience from somewhere, and not a little.
So how did she get all that experience? Because that is what XPs represent, really. Experience Points.
Look at Charname. He reached what, level 7,8 etc after doing all of Baldur's Gate? How did Aerie get all those XPs? She got them somewhere.
We have no idea what she experienced BEFORE she got taken by slavers, btw. She doesn't mention much about that part of her past. Obviously she got a ton of XPs from somewhere, though.
Edwin, for instance, for all his 18 intelligence, is stupid as hell. Aerie is not very wise. Viconia isn't wise at all. Anomen's wisdom increase is ridiculously excessive, if you think about how small his moral development actually is.
I don't think any comparisons between D&D mechanics and "real life" questions of intelligence, maturity or psychological depth work.
I find Viconia shows her wisdom, she shows a lot of insight and maturity in much of what she does (and reveals to us). You shouldn't forget that she is really a stranger in a strange land, one that hates all of her kind. She is also having to fight her own social programming (of which the Drow have some of the harshest there is). Only due to her high Int, Wis, and Cha is she able to survive on the surface, alone.
She showed a lot of Int and Wis in choosing to lay low, and actually accomplishing her goal of owning a farm (which she did, alone). She remained totally cloaked and hooded to others (awareness of what her Race invokes in the surfacers). That she made a mistake in trusting in the nearby farmer...well, that happens when we sometimes let our guard down, doesn't it? That has more to do with her Race than with her stats, though.
That she had enough intelligence and common sense to keep herself hidden reflects her stats. That she risked that turned out to be a less than smart decision, but she learned from that as well.
I find that she is rather well portrayed according to her stats.
I don't know about Anomen, as I have not had him in my party at all.
And yes, comparisons between D&D mechanics and "real life" questions of Int, maturity, and/or psychological depth do need to be kept appropriate. You can't have an NPC acting really intelligence when they have a 3 Int, and vice versa.
Note that scores around the 9-12 region are "normal" human scores - meaning you will find almost all range of human characteristics and behavior in these score ranges. Only those above and below provide exceptional ones.
Take a look at Minsc. He is portrayed perfectly according to his stats IMHO. Now, if he had a high Int and/or Wis, I would consider that wrong, but as he has the opposite, things make perfect sense.
And I was level ten, thank you. I'm a proud bard. ;p
Frankly, I don't think anyone could convince you, as is so often the case with arguments and discussions. That said, you can't convince me either, so we are left with accepting that we disagree. I do not believe that Aerie's actions are without merit, and I certainly do not believe they should be considered whining. But it is a game, and can be left to individual interpretation.
Now then, this whole Aerie tangent is excessively off topic from the original point of the thread. (in a way) I think that there is definite merit in skipping the romances, as none of them are perfectly suited to my tastes. Especially Evil McHot chick and miss "I'm old enough to be your mother and oh btw, my husband just died. Now pull down your pants." (Yes, I know, she's not that bad. I'm exaggerating.) Then again, maybe having a baby on an adventure isn't a great idea either. As for Anomen... He still has my favorite BG portrait of all time. That's my entire opinion on him. What about the newcomers? I'm not into big, gruff, and evil, nor am I a fan of afro women. Rasaad seems like a cool dude, though. If I were a female in that world I'd probably marry him. He's got that monk agility.
My PC also has 18+ Charisma so it doesn't feel so strange to be wanted by every woman. If he had a lot less charisma I think the women are blind lol
Rasaad isn't that bad, I agree. Of the new NPCs, he's the least disagreeable. My friend actually dislikes Dorn, Hexxat and Neera, and he actually killed off Hexxat before the quest. His complaint is similar to mine, that the new NPCs are quite out of place in the writing.
Here, I'll throw my opinion in about Khalid. I think he could have been resurrected. The dialog tree with Jaheira indicates that Charname thinks Khalid could have been resurrected and asked Jaheira to try, but Jaheira said no.
I believe this is partly indicative of Jaheira's True Neutral alignment and druidic beliefs, because resurrecting Khalid after he's dead for a while is against the natural cycle of life and death even if it's a benevolent act. Thus said, it made Aerie's attack on her even more repulsive...
And I can absolutely convince you that Quayle was more than "just" a mentor (and that Aerie kept having issues due to her wings and the events surrounding them up until the end) - This is Aerie's ending storyline if not romanced.
As we can plainly see, she regarded Quayle as not only mentor, but also as Father!!! So she knew both friendship and yes, fatherly love from Quayle, recognizing him as her true family (much to the distress of her loving parents who had never stopped looking for her as revealed in her ending storyline if romanced, no doubt).
Of course, you can continue to deny it, and block this text out, and not read or experience her ending storyline so as to avoid admitting the truth.
It is not so much as a matter of being convinced, as it is one of accepting facts here.
Aerie has issues with her Wings and the events surrounding them all through the game, up until the end. Fact.
She was closer to her mentor as a student-mentor relationship would indicate. Fact.
She has a high Int, Wis, and Cha and is not portrayed as if she does. Fact.
So when you finally get around to accepting the facts, well, then I guess we can discuss things further.
As for how that makes Aerie's attack more repulsive, I don't know... I haven't seen the exact dialogue, but to me it sounds both more vicious, but more accurate as well. *Shrugs*