I'll just do a quick summary on the Jaheira-Aerie catfight before we carry on:
1. Jaheira talks down to Aerie, as a bossy aunt talking down to a child 2. Aerie, when catfighting with Jaheira, unleashes a low blow at Jaheira
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
In that order as well; Aerie doesn't seek out Jaheira in order to be mean about Khalid. She just reacts when Jaheira has a go at her.
I always find it odd that few seem to take notice being nasty about Khalid; and that's not just when they're catfighting as she remarks quite cruelly about it outside the romance as well. But it's quite right; Viconia is just like that. With Aerie it's shocking because it obviously is unusual for her.
Actually, I hardly found it shocking. In fact, all three female romance interests are true to type.
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
She is an example of someone who had suffered and who had also been blessed in other areas, but focused so much on her loss that the loss is magnified out of proportion and the blessings diminished into nothingness. In RL experience, such people are the most bitter, least thankful, and are most willing to take it out on anyone and everyone. Such people are less able to exercise discretion because they are just "fighting for what little they can fight for". For Aerie's case, it is no wonder why she hit out at Jaheira so viciously, because Charname is her new obsession and here comes Jaheira who is fighting with her for it. Her wings were everything, now Charname is within her grasp, but Jaheira wants to "take Charname away too"
Of the three romances, Aerie's is the least believable.
Jaheira struggled with the loss of Khalid, and as Charname helped her through her grief, she fell in love. She even abandoned her Harper status even though this damaged her reputation, put her on the run and set her against her friends.
Viconia struggled with culture shock and had to relearn everything about men. She didn't want to risk Charname getting hurt, so she tried to sever the relationship. But eventually, she chose to abandon her drow ways to change alignment, because she loved.
So... what did Aerie give up? Right from the start, she was needy, demanding Charname's attention on her wings, focusing on herself first and foremost (Am I still beautiful? Would you **** me?"). Of the three romantic interests, Aerie is the most selfish, most self-centered, and she sacrificed the least for love.
That said, Aerie is a pitiable character, because some of us (at least I do) know of real people who are like that - so focused on their inadequacies that they never rose beyond their current circumstances (Aerie only got there long after the events of TOB). But as a "genuine", likeable, romantic interest, no.
At least for me, I don't think I'd love someone out of pity. That's really sad.
Your posts are quite...illogical, but man! A table? Really?
I don't know if I should howl with laughter, or cringe...I mean...a table? And it whacked you. I hope you didn't type that with a straight face. You later admit it was your fault, but still you...yeah.
Well, at least I now know why you want your Aerie like you see her.
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
Actually, we need to examine ALL the dialogs between the two, plus those with Charname, the other Companions that involve Jaheira and/or Aerie, and their endings (both romanced and not romanced).
Then we can start putting together the "real" Jaheira/Aerie relationship. It will also reveal more about the two (though Jaheira has much more history due to her presence in BG). I don't think that Jaheira's personality and behavior is in question here - everyone seems to be on the same page (which tells me that she is well done, and her character is rounded out).
Since there seems to be lots of doubt and quarreling about Aerie's personality, character, and behavior, this reveals alot about how she is portrayed (rather poorly IMHO).
So we need to dig deeper, much like Irenicus did with that irritating little...uups, I mean Imoen.
Time to start a new thread, I think.
So let us start a new thread, and dig up all those dialogs, including any new ones (involving the new Companions, should there be any).
Yes, I'm sure @Coutelier was in a huge brawl with a four legged wooden object. That was exactly what he meant in his serious, straight faced and completely unironic comment.
I'll just do a quick summary on the Jaheira-Aerie catfight before we carry on:
1. Jaheira talks down to Aerie, as a bossy aunt talking down to a child 2. Aerie, when catfighting with Jaheira, unleashes a low blow at Jaheira
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
In that order as well; Aerie doesn't seek out Jaheira in order to be mean about Khalid. She just reacts when Jaheira has a go at her.
I always find it odd that few seem to take notice being nasty about Khalid; and that's not just when they're catfighting as she remarks quite cruelly about it outside the romance as well. But it's quite right; Viconia is just like that. With Aerie it's shocking because it obviously is unusual for her.
Actually, I hardly found it shocking. In fact, all three female romance interests are true to type.
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
It says in her epilogue she in danger of losing herself; she wasn't happy because she wasn't being true to who she really is, in my opinion of course. She doesn't seem to obsessed with Charname, since you can leave her after she feels better about her depression and she's completely amiable about it.
And then you look at her interactions, like the way she comforts Minsc and tries to comfort Anomen, and almost every banter she starts with anyone else is typically her asking questions about them so she never comes across too wrapped in own woes; she obviously is quite concerned and interested in the people around her too.
The way she deals with her trauma seems quite believable to me; I've known people like that as well. Some do become bitter, but some become like Aerie and want to be nice and help others so they don't go through what they did. There may be a bit of what is commonly called Stockholm Syndrome as well; I mean she obviously doesn't love her captors at all, but the way she describes things like her capture as being her fault for example. But anyway, she's already lost a great deal I think, but she still cares for others and is prepared to do everything in her power to help them try no matter what.
Now, I certainly don't approve of Aerie being nasty about Khalid; I would have stern words with her. But she snaps, loses her temper and makes a mistake... it was bad, but I just don't think you should judge everything about her based on that.
I think your question is addressed to @Coutelier since he was the one who said it... but if you're asking me, my answer is no.
And in any fight between me and any type of furniture, bet all your salary on the furniture. You may never need to work again.
I've fought tables, chairs, rocks, my Playstation has made me angry a few times... the good thing is that they don't fight back very much, but they have got a pretty solid defence.
I'll just do a quick summary on the Jaheira-Aerie catfight before we carry on:
1. Jaheira talks down to Aerie, as a bossy aunt talking down to a child 2. Aerie, when catfighting with Jaheira, unleashes a low blow at Jaheira
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
In that order as well; Aerie doesn't seek out Jaheira in order to be mean about Khalid. She just reacts when Jaheira has a go at her.
I always find it odd that few seem to take notice being nasty about Khalid; and that's not just when they're catfighting as she remarks quite cruelly about it outside the romance as well. But it's quite right; Viconia is just like that. With Aerie it's shocking because it obviously is unusual for her.
Actually, I hardly found it shocking. In fact, all three female romance interests are true to type.
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
It says in her epilogue she in danger of losing herself; she wasn't happy because she wasn't being true to who she really is, in my opinion of course. She doesn't seem to obsessed with Charname, since you can leave her after she feels better about her depression and she's completely amiable about it.
And then you look at her interactions, like the way she comforts Minsc and tries to comfort Anomen, and almost every banter she starts with anyone else is typically her asking questions about them so she never comes across too wrapped in own woes; she obviously is quite concerned and interested in the people around her too.
The way she deals with her trauma seems quite believable to me; I've known people like that as well. Some do become bitter, but some become like Aerie and want to be nice and help others so they don't go through what they did. There may be a bit of what is commonly called Stockholm Syndrome as well; I mean she obviously doesn't love her captors at all, but the way she describes things like her capture as being her fault for example. But anyway, she's already lost a great deal I think, but she still cares for others and is prepared to do everything in her power to help them try no matter what.
Now, I certainly don't approve of Aerie being nasty about Khalid; I would have stern words with her. But she snaps, loses her temper and makes a mistake... it was bad, but I just don't think you should judge everything about her based on that.
I can't exactly describe it as amiable... there is no way that anyone can stop Charname from doing what he wants, at least in the game.
Your point about "she doesn't seem too obsessed with Charname" is EXACTLY what I meant! She does NOT love Charname. Charname is only a momentary obsession for her to dump her emotions on. Easy come, easy go. If she thinks the whole world perceives her as ugly, and she finds someone who MIGHT think she is pretty, why wouldn't she fight for all she's worth for that audience of one?
It's good to see that your observations, despite being presented in a different way, supports my point.
And being bitter about her life in no way does it mean that she is bitter towards everyone else. These often occur together but need not always have to be. I described her type as "most bitter, least thankful, and most willing to take it out on others". She is most bitter and least thankful about her life. And she is most willing to take it out on others... Jaheira and Viconia, when she is catfighting for Charname. This does not invalidate my statement.
As for your last statement, I find it contradictory. She cannot even find the courage to blame her captors for doing what they did to her, yet she can nurse the bitterness in her heart for years right into the TOB epilogue to wreck vengeance against slavers? o.O
One other thing to consider in the Jaheira/Aerie relationship - for Jaheira, Aerie is on the other end of the Alignment Axis, just like a Chaotic Evil is (being that Aerie is LG).
This means that certain parts of Aerie's personality, beliefs, actions are going to grate with Jaheira's, and probably vice versa...which I find is pretty well done in the actual banters themselves.
I sincerely doubt the two would ever become good friends.
One other thing to consider in the Jaheira/Aerie relationship - for Jaheira, Aerie is on the other end of the Alignment Axis, just like a Chaotic Evil is (being that Aerie is LG).
This means that certain parts of Aerie's personality, beliefs, actions are going to grate with Jaheira's, and probably vice versa...which I find is pretty well done in the actual banters themselves.
I sincerely doubt the two would ever become good friends.
Not necessary...
Waukeen (N) is good friends with Lliira (CG) Jan (CN) gets along well with Aerie (LG)
I'll just do a quick summary on the Jaheira-Aerie catfight before we carry on:
1. Jaheira talks down to Aerie, as a bossy aunt talking down to a child 2. Aerie, when catfighting with Jaheira, unleashes a low blow at Jaheira
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
In that order as well; Aerie doesn't seek out Jaheira in order to be mean about Khalid. She just reacts when Jaheira has a go at her.
I always find it odd that few seem to take notice being nasty about Khalid; and that's not just when they're catfighting as she remarks quite cruelly about it outside the romance as well. But it's quite right; Viconia is just like that. With Aerie it's shocking because it obviously is unusual for her.
Actually, I hardly found it shocking. In fact, all three female romance interests are true to type.
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
It says in her epilogue she in danger of losing herself; she wasn't happy because she wasn't being true to who she really is, in my opinion of course. She doesn't seem to obsessed with Charname, since you can leave her after she feels better about her depression and she's completely amiable about it.
And then you look at her interactions, like the way she comforts Minsc and tries to comfort Anomen, and almost every banter she starts with anyone else is typically her asking questions about them so she never comes across too wrapped in own woes; she obviously is quite concerned and interested in the people around her too.
The way she deals with her trauma seems quite believable to me; I've known people like that as well. Some do become bitter, but some become like Aerie and want to be nice and help others so they don't go through what they did. There may be a bit of what is commonly called Stockholm Syndrome as well; I mean she obviously doesn't love her captors at all, but the way she describes things like her capture as being her fault for example. But anyway, she's already lost a great deal I think, but she still cares for others and is prepared to do everything in her power to help them try no matter what.
Now, I certainly don't approve of Aerie being nasty about Khalid; I would have stern words with her. But she snaps, loses her temper and makes a mistake... it was bad, but I just don't think you should judge everything about her based on that.
I can't exactly describe it as amiable... there is no way that anyone can stop Charname from doing what he wants, at least in the game.
Your point about "she doesn't seem too obsessed with Charname" is EXACTLY what I meant! She does NOT love Charname. Charname is only a momentary obsession for her to dump her emotions on. Easy come, easy go. If she thinks the whole world perceives her as ugly, and she finds someone who MIGHT think she is pretty, why wouldn't she fight for all she's worth for that audience of one?
It's good to see that your observations, despite being presented in a different way, supports my point.
Not really; your point was that she's completely self-centered and obsessed with Charname. Her interactions with the other characters show that she isn't. As you said, she is prepared to fight for Charname with Jaheira and Vic. There just comes a time when she realizes she doesn't need Charname to support and can manage things on her own, I think, and so if Charname doesn't want to pursue a relationship any further that's fine. She'll still help him as best she can.
As for your last statement, I find it contradictory. She cannot even find the courage to blame her captors for doing what they did to her, yet she can nurse the bitterness in her heart for years right into the TOB epilogue to wreck vengeance against slavers? o.O
It's not a question of lacking courage. She was a captive for a long time with no power to change anything; she would have always lost if she got mad and tried to start a fight. Convincing herself that she's the one to blame is a way of convincing herself that she does have control of the situation, even though she didn't. Unfortunately, the mind often seems to come up with these strange coping mechanisms and that sometimes do more harm than good because they are illogical and contradictory, and only cause further stress. But no doubt she would eventually realize that it really wasn't her fault and was the fault of the slavers and others who treat people like possessions and objects.
I'll just do a quick summary on the Jaheira-Aerie catfight before we carry on:
1. Jaheira talks down to Aerie, as a bossy aunt talking down to a child 2. Aerie, when catfighting with Jaheira, unleashes a low blow at Jaheira
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
In that order as well; Aerie doesn't seek out Jaheira in order to be mean about Khalid. She just reacts when Jaheira has a go at her.
I always find it odd that few seem to take notice being nasty about Khalid; and that's not just when they're catfighting as she remarks quite cruelly about it outside the romance as well. But it's quite right; Viconia is just like that. With Aerie it's shocking because it obviously is unusual for her.
Actually, I hardly found it shocking. In fact, all three female romance interests are true to type.
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
It says in her epilogue she in danger of losing herself; she wasn't happy because she wasn't being true to who she really is, in my opinion of course. She doesn't seem to obsessed with Charname, since you can leave her after she feels better about her depression and she's completely amiable about it.
And then you look at her interactions, like the way she comforts Minsc and tries to comfort Anomen, and almost every banter she starts with anyone else is typically her asking questions about them so she never comes across too wrapped in own woes; she obviously is quite concerned and interested in the people around her too.
The way she deals with her trauma seems quite believable to me; I've known people like that as well. Some do become bitter, but some become like Aerie and want to be nice and help others so they don't go through what they did. There may be a bit of what is commonly called Stockholm Syndrome as well; I mean she obviously doesn't love her captors at all, but the way she describes things like her capture as being her fault for example. But anyway, she's already lost a great deal I think, but she still cares for others and is prepared to do everything in her power to help them try no matter what.
Now, I certainly don't approve of Aerie being nasty about Khalid; I would have stern words with her. But she snaps, loses her temper and makes a mistake... it was bad, but I just don't think you should judge everything about her based on that.
I can't exactly describe it as amiable... there is no way that anyone can stop Charname from doing what he wants, at least in the game.
Your point about "she doesn't seem too obsessed with Charname" is EXACTLY what I meant! She does NOT love Charname. Charname is only a momentary obsession for her to dump her emotions on. Easy come, easy go. If she thinks the whole world perceives her as ugly, and she finds someone who MIGHT think she is pretty, why wouldn't she fight for all she's worth for that audience of one?
It's good to see that your observations, despite being presented in a different way, supports my point.
Not really; your point was that she's completely self-centered and obsessed with Charname. Her interactions with the other characters show that she isn't. As you said, she is prepared to fight for Charname with Jaheira and Vic. There just comes a time when she realizes she doesn't need Charname to support and can manage things on her own, I think, and so if Charname doesn't want to pursue a relationship any further that's fine. She'll still help him as best she can.
As for your last statement, I find it contradictory. She cannot even find the courage to blame her captors for doing what they did to her, yet she can nurse the bitterness in her heart for years right into the TOB epilogue to wreck vengeance against slavers? o.O
It's not a question of lacking courage. She was a captive for a long time with no power to change anything; she would have always lost if she got mad and tried to start a fight. Convincing herself that she's the one to blame is a way of convincing herself that she does have control of the situation, even though she didn't. Unfortunately, the mind often seems to come up with these strange coping mechanisms and that sometimes do more harm than good because they are illogical and contradictory, and only cause further stress. But no doubt she would eventually realize that it really wasn't her fault and was the fault of the slavers and others who treat people like possessions and objects.
Very simple. She is only obsessed with Charname, hence the ugly side of her will only show itself when Charname is involved. People don't get upset over things that they aren't concerned or obsessed about. And this is exactly what I said, in that she doesn't actually love Charname. Charname is only a momentary fixation. She only wants his attentions to feel good about herself. If Charname is not interested, she'll just look elsewhere. No big deal.
Your second point is the only part that I will grant you some quarter. But whether your point or my point is valid, we are still describing a fundamental problem with her character - she has not come to terms with her captivity and the loss of her wings. And in the course of assigning blame and retribution, she "lost herself". And this is the thing that @WebShaman and I have been talking about, that this is part of her core being.
One other thing to consider in the Jaheira/Aerie relationship - for Jaheira, Aerie is on the other end of the Alignment Axis, just like a Chaotic Evil is (being that Aerie is LG).
This means that certain parts of Aerie's personality, beliefs, actions are going to grate with Jaheira's, and probably vice versa...which I find is pretty well done in the actual banters themselves.
I sincerely doubt the two would ever become good friends.
Not necessary...
Waukeen (N) is good friends with Lliira (CG) Jan (CN) gets along well with Aerie (LG)
Yes, necessarily. You are not really considering how the Alignment Axis works, I think.
You have LG and CE on the opposite ends, with N in the middle.
Jan basically gets along with everyone - that is his "surface" personality. As a CN, it is perfectly ok for him to do whatever grabs his fancy. Since he is so inquisitive and curious, he basically pokes his nose into everyone else's business, as it suits him.
And he is somewhat of a gentle soul, that would appeal to Aerie. And he is a gnome. Just like Uncle Quayle.
However, I really don't see them building a real lasting friendship either.
Waukeen and Lliira are Gods, and in the same Pantheon. I am sure that they have their little differences, but for the most part, their Domains are not conflicting. I am sure they are not sitting down to tea on sundays, however. You do not compare Gods with mortals.
One other thing to consider in the Jaheira/Aerie relationship - for Jaheira, Aerie is on the other end of the Alignment Axis, just like a Chaotic Evil is (being that Aerie is LG).
This means that certain parts of Aerie's personality, beliefs, actions are going to grate with Jaheira's, and probably vice versa...which I find is pretty well done in the actual banters themselves.
I sincerely doubt the two would ever become good friends.
Not necessary...
Waukeen (N) is good friends with Lliira (CG) Jan (CN) gets along well with Aerie (LG)
Yes, necessarily. You are not really considering how the Alignment Axis works, I think.
You have LG and CE on the opposite ends, with N in the middle.
Jan basically gets along with everyone - that is his "surface" personality. As a CN, it is perfectly ok for him to do whatever grabs his fancy. Since he is so inquisitive and curious, he basically pokes his nose into everyone else's business, as it suits him.
And he is somewhat of a gentle soul, that would appeal to Aerie. And he is a gnome. Just like Uncle Quayle.
However, I really don't see them building a real lasting friendship either.
Waukeen and Lliira are Gods, and in the same Pantheon. I am sure that they have their little differences, but for the most part, their Domains are not conflicting. I am sure they are not sitting down to tea on sundays, however. You do not compare Gods with mortals.
I assure you, you think wrong
We need to understand alignment as a generalization of an individual's ethics and morals, or for a lack of a more comprehensive description, worldview.
You are postulating that people with different worldviews cannot be good friends. And what do you need to be good friends? Same Good/Neutral alignment? Same Law/Chaos alignment? Identical alignment?
This is very, very dangerous ground to tread, so I'd urge caution that we do not go there. I'll not challenge your assertion further other than pointing out that your statement, whether in fantasy or real life, will open a can of hornets, worms and other vermin
I'll just do a quick summary on the Jaheira-Aerie catfight before we carry on:
1. Jaheira talks down to Aerie, as a bossy aunt talking down to a child 2. Aerie, when catfighting with Jaheira, unleashes a low blow at Jaheira
Both #1 and #2 can be verified in dialog.tlk. All other statements on both of them are conjectures that are open to debate.
In that order as well; Aerie doesn't seek out Jaheira in order to be mean about Khalid. She just reacts when Jaheira has a go at her.
I always find it odd that few seem to take notice being nasty about Khalid; and that's not just when they're catfighting as she remarks quite cruelly about it outside the romance as well. But it's quite right; Viconia is just like that. With Aerie it's shocking because it obviously is unusual for her.
Actually, I hardly found it shocking. In fact, all three female romance interests are true to type.
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
It says in her epilogue she in danger of losing herself; she wasn't happy because she wasn't being true to who she really is, in my opinion of course. She doesn't seem to obsessed with Charname, since you can leave her after she feels better about her depression and she's completely amiable about it.
And then you look at her interactions, like the way she comforts Minsc and tries to comfort Anomen, and almost every banter she starts with anyone else is typically her asking questions about them so she never comes across too wrapped in own woes; she obviously is quite concerned and interested in the people around her too.
The way she deals with her trauma seems quite believable to me; I've known people like that as well. Some do become bitter, but some become like Aerie and want to be nice and help others so they don't go through what they did. There may be a bit of what is commonly called Stockholm Syndrome as well; I mean she obviously doesn't love her captors at all, but the way she describes things like her capture as being her fault for example. But anyway, she's already lost a great deal I think, but she still cares for others and is prepared to do everything in her power to help them try no matter what.
Now, I certainly don't approve of Aerie being nasty about Khalid; I would have stern words with her. But she snaps, loses her temper and makes a mistake... it was bad, but I just don't think you should judge everything about her based on that.
I can't exactly describe it as amiable... there is no way that anyone can stop Charname from doing what he wants, at least in the game.
Your point about "she doesn't seem too obsessed with Charname" is EXACTLY what I meant! She does NOT love Charname. Charname is only a momentary obsession for her to dump her emotions on. Easy come, easy go. If she thinks the whole world perceives her as ugly, and she finds someone who MIGHT think she is pretty, why wouldn't she fight for all she's worth for that audience of one?
It's good to see that your observations, despite being presented in a different way, supports my point.
Not really; your point was that she's completely self-centered and obsessed with Charname. Her interactions with the other characters show that she isn't. As you said, she is prepared to fight for Charname with Jaheira and Vic. There just comes a time when she realizes she doesn't need Charname to support and can manage things on her own, I think, and so if Charname doesn't want to pursue a relationship any further that's fine. She'll still help him as best she can.
As for your last statement, I find it contradictory. She cannot even find the courage to blame her captors for doing what they did to her, yet she can nurse the bitterness in her heart for years right into the TOB epilogue to wreck vengeance against slavers? o.O
It's not a question of lacking courage. She was a captive for a long time with no power to change anything; she would have always lost if she got mad and tried to start a fight. Convincing herself that she's the one to blame is a way of convincing herself that she does have control of the situation, even though she didn't. Unfortunately, the mind often seems to come up with these strange coping mechanisms and that sometimes do more harm than good because they are illogical and contradictory, and only cause further stress. But no doubt she would eventually realize that it really wasn't her fault and was the fault of the slavers and others who treat people like possessions and objects.
Very simple. She is only obsessed with Charname, hence the ugly side of her will only show itself when Charname is involved. People don't get upset over things that they aren't concerned or obsessed about. And this is exactly what I said, in that she doesn't actually love Charname. Charname is only a momentary fixation. She only wants his attentions to feel good about herself. If Charname is not interested, she'll just look elsewhere. No big deal.
She doesn't act ungrateful at all if you decide not to pursue her; she still wants to help. I think she basically just needed to get these things off her chest and for whatever reason she thought Charname was someone she could trust enough to do so, maybe because you helped her in the circus or Quayle has said good things about you; who knows. But she never does open about it to anyone else, not even Haer'Dalis, but it may be that he just keeps her distracted with all the theater stuff. She does love him for helping her and fights, or there wouldn't be any conversation... she would have just walked away when Jaheira started talking down to her. She'll go on loving Charname for all he's done, it just doesn't have to be romantic.
I can't really go along with the idea of reading so much into lines she says when she's upset and angry, when there's so much other stuff as well. I suppose because the romantic talks are so slanted about her problems, it can almost seem like Aerie in the romance is a different Aerie from the one who interacts with all the other characters. But I think if you look at that, there's no reason to believe that Aerie isn't concerned with your problems as well and if you wanted to bury your head in her bosum and have a sob, well, she might find it weird at first but I doubt she'd say no.
But anyway, we're probably just going to go in circles and never completely agree. So, I'll leave you with the fact that when you fight inanimate objects, there's no way to win since you typically end up having to pay to replace them anyway.
been waiting to actually have a chance to say something, and don't feel like reading further atm when I want to go play ESO however, I do want to clarify something
on the topic of Jaheira not reviving Khalid, at charname's mention of it she says something along the line of him being defiled too far for resurrection. I don't think it is at all about her having beliefs against it, especially when she is a druid with a special revival spell, but rather that he is in a state similar to being chunked where he has just been mutilated too far for revival, and so she has to let go unfortunately
about Aerie's attacks at Jaheira: Jaheira does indeed make her own small attacks, but nothing compared to Aerie's attack on her dead husband! that is really too far, whether she was just reacting or not
I guess I myself am one of the few Jaheira sympathizer. I think it is just a bit in character that she would be able to move on better than any of us because she and Khalid are in the adventuring profession. they face life and death situations daily, and she needs to be ready for it. she will be sad about it, sure, but she will realize she has to move on, and she still gets upset about Khalid in TOB when a spirit takes his form and mocks her about it all, so she does still care. then I try to think about her age and I remember we can't look at charname to any of the romances because elves are different! in all reality, Jaheira and Aerie would be comparable in age, but Jaheira is just a lot more mature in personality and therefore comes off as older. then from what I hear Viconia would technically be older than all of them and yet she seems to be the favorite, so I still don't understand the whole age thing.
I should also mention that I don't look at Jaheira as a full blown romance, but a budding romance and moving on with a friend. There isn't even any point where you have to sleep with her, and when you get it at the end you could refuse or I've heard a friend say that they see at as just sleeping next to each other, rather than doing the deed. I like to imagine that with Jaheira you have the start of something that can continue on beyond the events of the game. Honestly, if we look at game time, I think all of the romances go too fast anyway, so I like to imagine the game takes place over a longer period of time.
btw out of curiosity, would people have a problem with Aerie if she were Gorion's friend? elves just have a different life span than us, and we need to realize that. Aerie has lived longer than Gorion, it is possible even if she acts like a young, naive girl.
about Aerie's attacks at Jaheira: Jaheira does indeed make her own small attacks, but nothing compared to Aerie's attack on her dead husband! that is really too far, whether she was just reacting or not
Aerie just doesn't seem used to fighting like this; she's trying her best to stand her ground, but has little experience so attacks there because it seems Jaheira's vulnerability. It's wrong of her, but it is exceptional and not like she's constantly attacking people like that, like Viccy who for some reason is allowed to and far worse as well.
btw out of curiosity, would people have a problem with Aerie if she were Gorion's friend? elves just have a different life span than us, and we need to realize that. Aerie has lived longer than Gorion, it is possible even if she acts like a young, naive girl.
I don't see how; I mean Aerie has been travelling but is basically still an alien to the rest of the world which is why she seems so naive and obviously must experience some culture shock. For her to have known Gorion, she would have to had left there a long time ago so the Aerie we would meet then would be a much more grown up and matured Aerie with a lot more experience of the world... so yeah, I guess there would less of a problem with her since she'll have already come to terms with all that troubles her.
Well-written post, thoughtful and reasonable. Thanks much for contributing! ^_^
I have just one item to add.
On resurrecting Khalid, actually, beyond what is in the dialogue, we don't really know why Jaheira considers Khalid beyond recovery. I'm invoking background knowledge of her druidic faith in Silvanus, a god who is known (as described in Faiths and Avatars) to let wounded and sick animals die to fuel the cycle of life, death and rebirth. These are some of her lines from the dialogue tree:
- We live in a time of miracles, and nature allows the rebirth of many that have passed beyond the veil, but there is a time when... when it is better to let go.
- Nature is a cycle of birth and... death. Interrupting that cycle isn't... natural! Ah, there's no time for this! I will mourn, but we must still rescue ourselves!
From the perspective of the reader, the inclusion of ellipses suggests that she may be hiding more than she lets on, because ellipses suggest some hesitation. As a Silvanite druid, she is tasked with preserving the natural cycle of life and rebirth. She admits that miracles are possible, but even she didn't sound very sure when she came to the part about letting go. Hence, linking the dots together, it appears that she could raise Khalid, but because of her responsibility as druid, she had to let her druidic principles trump her personal desire to have Khalid back.
What is so terrible about Anomen if he's going to be... a lover for a female Charname? From his dialogues, although he is a bit of a male chauvinist pig, he does behave rather gallantly towards Charname...
The trouble is that he's a misogynistic, unapologetic jerk. His saving grace is one common among many humans - he can and does change. Though to be fair, the swing is almost too close to a 180, and he turns into the kind of guy who brings flowers to a booty call. Still, that's preferable to where he started from, and I love the fact that he displays real growth. I consider him one of BG2's finer writing achievements.
The trouble is that he's a misogynistic, unapologetic jerk. His saving grace is one common among many humans - he can and does change. Though to be fair, the swing is almost too close to a 180, and he turns into the kind of guy who brings flowers to a booty call. Still, that's preferable to where he started from, and I love the fact that he displays real growth. I consider him one of BG2's finer writing achievements.
I'm not a girl, so I profess to be clueless about whether this type of guy will appeal to girls... but giving flowers to Charname was a bit mushy.
Who'd have known that the loudmouth Annoymen is actually one giant teddy bear dying to love a girl? XD
Comments
@WebShaman has a point when he comments that Aerie is actually grappling with a repressed negative emotions like insecurity and revenge. This is in line with what I commented about this being the real person that Aerie is, not the typical Aerie apologist's argument that she is "acting unusually".
She is an example of someone who had suffered and who had also been blessed in other areas, but focused so much on her loss that the loss is magnified out of proportion and the blessings diminished into nothingness. In RL experience, such people are the most bitter, least thankful, and are most willing to take it out on anyone and everyone. Such people are less able to exercise discretion because they are just "fighting for what little they can fight for". For Aerie's case, it is no wonder why she hit out at Jaheira so viciously, because Charname is her new obsession and here comes Jaheira who is fighting with her for it. Her wings were everything, now Charname is within her grasp, but Jaheira wants to "take Charname away too"
Of the three romances, Aerie's is the least believable.
Jaheira struggled with the loss of Khalid, and as Charname helped her through her grief, she fell in love. She even abandoned her Harper status even though this damaged her reputation, put her on the run and set her against her friends.
Viconia struggled with culture shock and had to relearn everything about men. She didn't want to risk Charname getting hurt, so she tried to sever the relationship. But eventually, she chose to abandon her drow ways to change alignment, because she loved.
So... what did Aerie give up? Right from the start, she was needy, demanding Charname's attention on her wings, focusing on herself first and foremost (Am I still beautiful? Would you **** me?"). Of the three romantic interests, Aerie is the most selfish, most self-centered, and she sacrificed the least for love.
That said, Aerie is a pitiable character, because some of us (at least I do) know of real people who are like that - so focused on their inadequacies that they never rose beyond their current circumstances (Aerie only got there long after the events of TOB). But as a "genuine", likeable, romantic interest, no.
At least for me, I don't think I'd love someone out of pity. That's really sad.
Your posts are quite...illogical, but man! A table? Really?
I don't know if I should howl with laughter, or cringe...I mean...a table? And it whacked you. I hope you didn't type that with a straight face. You later admit it was your fault, but still you...yeah.
Well, at least I now know why you want your Aerie like you see her. Actually, we need to examine ALL the dialogs between the two, plus those with Charname, the other Companions that involve Jaheira and/or Aerie, and their endings (both romanced and not romanced).
Then we can start putting together the "real" Jaheira/Aerie relationship. It will also reveal more about the two (though Jaheira has much more history due to her presence in BG). I don't think that Jaheira's personality and behavior is in question here - everyone seems to be on the same page (which tells me that she is well done, and her character is rounded out).
Since there seems to be lots of doubt and quarreling about Aerie's personality, character, and behavior, this reveals alot about how she is portrayed (rather poorly IMHO).
So we need to dig deeper, much like Irenicus did with that irritating little...uups, I mean Imoen.
Time to start a new thread, I think.
So let us start a new thread, and dig up all those dialogs, including any new ones (involving the new Companions, should there be any).
Should be quite revealing...
A quick temper check. This is a lively discussion but let's keep tempers cool okay?
And in any fight between me and any type of furniture, bet all your salary on the furniture. You may never need to work again.
And then you look at her interactions, like the way she comforts Minsc and tries to comfort Anomen, and almost every banter she starts with anyone else is typically her asking questions about them so she never comes across too wrapped in own woes; she obviously is quite concerned and interested in the people around her too.
The way she deals with her trauma seems quite believable to me; I've known people like that as well. Some do become bitter, but some become like Aerie and want to be nice and help others so they don't go through what they did. There may be a bit of what is commonly called Stockholm Syndrome as well; I mean she obviously doesn't love her captors at all, but the way she describes things like her capture as being her fault for example. But anyway, she's already lost a great deal I think, but she still cares for others and is prepared to do everything in her power to help them try no matter what.
Now, I certainly don't approve of Aerie being nasty about Khalid; I would have stern words with her. But she snaps, loses her temper and makes a mistake... it was bad, but I just don't think you should judge everything about her based on that.
+1 follower of Aerie, +5 vs Furniture!
Your point about "she doesn't seem too obsessed with Charname" is EXACTLY what I meant! She does NOT love Charname. Charname is only a momentary obsession for her to dump her emotions on. Easy come, easy go. If she thinks the whole world perceives her as ugly, and she finds someone who MIGHT think she is pretty, why wouldn't she fight for all she's worth for that audience of one?
It's good to see that your observations, despite being presented in a different way, supports my point.
And being bitter about her life in no way does it mean that she is bitter towards everyone else. These often occur together but need not always have to be. I described her type as "most bitter, least thankful, and most willing to take it out on others". She is most bitter and least thankful about her life. And she is most willing to take it out on others... Jaheira and Viconia, when she is catfighting for Charname. This does not invalidate my statement.
As for your last statement, I find it contradictory. She cannot even find the courage to blame her captors for doing what they did to her, yet she can nurse the bitterness in her heart for years right into the TOB epilogue to wreck vengeance against slavers? o.O
This means that certain parts of Aerie's personality, beliefs, actions are going to grate with Jaheira's, and probably vice versa...which I find is pretty well done in the actual banters themselves.
I sincerely doubt the two would ever become good friends.
Waukeen (N) is good friends with Lliira (CG)
Jan (CN) gets along well with Aerie (LG)
Very simple. She is only obsessed with Charname, hence the ugly side of her will only show itself when Charname is involved. People don't get upset over things that they aren't concerned or obsessed about. And this is exactly what I said, in that she doesn't actually love Charname. Charname is only a momentary fixation. She only wants his attentions to feel good about herself. If Charname is not interested, she'll just look elsewhere. No big deal.
Your second point is the only part that I will grant you some quarter. But whether your point or my point is valid, we are still describing a fundamental problem with her character - she has not come to terms with her captivity and the loss of her wings. And in the course of assigning blame and retribution, she "lost herself". And this is the thing that @WebShaman and I have been talking about, that this is part of her core being.
You have LG and CE on the opposite ends, with N in the middle.
Jan basically gets along with everyone - that is his "surface" personality. As a CN, it is perfectly ok for him to do whatever grabs his fancy. Since he is so inquisitive and curious, he basically pokes his nose into everyone else's business, as it suits him.
And he is somewhat of a gentle soul, that would appeal to Aerie. And he is a gnome. Just like Uncle Quayle.
However, I really don't see them building a real lasting friendship either.
Waukeen and Lliira are Gods, and in the same Pantheon. I am sure that they have their little differences, but for the most part, their Domains are not conflicting. I am sure they are not sitting down to tea on sundays, however. You do not compare Gods with mortals.
We need to understand alignment as a generalization of an individual's ethics and morals, or for a lack of a more comprehensive description, worldview.
You are postulating that people with different worldviews cannot be good friends. And what do you need to be good friends? Same Good/Neutral alignment? Same Law/Chaos alignment? Identical alignment?
This is very, very dangerous ground to tread, so I'd urge caution that we do not go there. I'll not challenge your assertion further other than pointing out that your statement, whether in fantasy or real life, will open a can of hornets, worms and other vermin
She doesn't act ungrateful at all if you decide not to pursue her; she still wants to help. I think she basically just needed to get these things off her chest and for whatever reason she thought Charname was someone she could trust enough to do so, maybe because you helped her in the circus or Quayle has said good things about you; who knows. But she never does open about it to anyone else, not even Haer'Dalis, but it may be that he just keeps her distracted with all the theater stuff. She does love him for helping her and fights, or there wouldn't be any conversation... she would have just walked away when Jaheira started talking down to her. She'll go on loving Charname for all he's done, it just doesn't have to be romantic.
I can't really go along with the idea of reading so much into lines she says when she's upset and angry, when there's so much other stuff as well. I suppose because the romantic talks are so slanted about her problems, it can almost seem like Aerie in the romance is a different Aerie from the one who interacts with all the other characters. But I think if you look at that, there's no reason to believe that Aerie isn't concerned with your problems as well and if you wanted to bury your head in her bosum and have a sob, well, she might find it weird at first but I doubt she'd say no.
But anyway, we're probably just going to go in circles and never completely agree. So, I'll leave you with the fact that when you fight inanimate objects, there's no way to win since you typically end up having to pay to replace them anyway.
Discuss.
on the topic of Jaheira not reviving Khalid, at charname's mention of it she says something along the line of him being defiled too far for resurrection. I don't think it is at all about her having beliefs against it, especially when she is a druid with a special revival spell, but rather that he is in a state similar to being chunked where he has just been mutilated too far for revival, and so she has to let go unfortunately
about Aerie's attacks at Jaheira: Jaheira does indeed make her own small attacks, but nothing compared to Aerie's attack on her dead husband! that is really too far, whether she was just reacting or not
I guess I myself am one of the few Jaheira sympathizer. I think it is just a bit in character that she would be able to move on better than any of us because she and Khalid are in the adventuring profession. they face life and death situations daily, and she needs to be ready for it. she will be sad about it, sure, but she will realize she has to move on, and she still gets upset about Khalid in TOB when a spirit takes his form and mocks her about it all, so she does still care. then I try to think about her age and I remember we can't look at charname to any of the romances because elves are different! in all reality, Jaheira and Aerie would be comparable in age, but Jaheira is just a lot more mature in personality and therefore comes off as older. then from what I hear Viconia would technically be older than all of them and yet she seems to be the favorite, so I still don't understand the whole age thing.
I should also mention that I don't look at Jaheira as a full blown romance, but a budding romance and moving on with a friend. There isn't even any point where you have to sleep with her, and when you get it at the end you could refuse or I've heard a friend say that they see at as just sleeping next to each other, rather than doing the deed. I like to imagine that with Jaheira you have the start of something that can continue on beyond the events of the game. Honestly, if we look at game time, I think all of the romances go too fast anyway, so I like to imagine the game takes place over a longer period of time.
btw out of curiosity, would people have a problem with Aerie if she were Gorion's friend? elves just have a different life span than us, and we need to realize that. Aerie has lived longer than Gorion, it is possible even if she acts like a young, naive girl.
Well-written post, thoughtful and reasonable. Thanks much for contributing! ^_^
I have just one item to add.
On resurrecting Khalid, actually, beyond what is in the dialogue, we don't really know why Jaheira considers Khalid beyond recovery. I'm invoking background knowledge of her druidic faith in Silvanus, a god who is known (as described in Faiths and Avatars) to let wounded and sick animals die to fuel the cycle of life, death and rebirth. These are some of her lines from the dialogue tree:
- We live in a time of miracles, and nature allows the rebirth of many that have passed beyond the veil, but there is a time when... when it is better to let go.
- Nature is a cycle of birth and... death. Interrupting that cycle isn't... natural! Ah, there's no time for this! I will mourn, but we must still rescue ourselves!
From the perspective of the reader, the inclusion of ellipses suggests that she may be hiding more than she lets on, because ellipses suggest some hesitation. As a Silvanite druid, she is tasked with preserving the natural cycle of life and rebirth. She admits that miracles are possible, but even she didn't sound very sure when she came to the part about letting go. Hence, linking the dots together, it appears that she could raise Khalid, but because of her responsibility as druid, she had to let her druidic principles trump her personal desire to have Khalid back.
*Sees 80 new posts in this thread*
O_o
What is so terrible about Anomen if he's going to be... a lover for a female Charname? From his dialogues, although he is a bit of a male chauvinist pig, he does behave rather gallantly towards Charname...
His saving grace is one common among many humans - he can and does change.
Though to be fair, the swing is almost too close to a 180, and he turns into the kind of guy who brings flowers to a booty call.
Still, that's preferable to where he started from, and I love the fact that he displays real growth. I consider him one of BG2's finer writing achievements.
Who'd have known that the loudmouth Annoymen is actually one giant teddy bear dying to love a girl? XD